Did Mace Windu have the Emperor in Episode III?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I can't remember what was decided a decade back. Was the Emperor letting Mace look like he had the upper hand or did Mace have him before Anakin stepped in?

The novelization probably makes it more clear.

[Devonix]

I fully believe that Mace would have killed him, anything else weakens the scene for me.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I fully believe that Mace would have killed him, anything else weakens the scene for me.

That was my feeling from the beginning as well.

I really liked the Mace Windu character though so I want to make sure my judgement is not clouded so to say. I was hoping to see more Clone Wars episodes based on him.

[Mechalich]

People have gone either way on this for ages, and probably always will. At the very least, even if Palpatine had been playing things up for Anakin's benefit, by the time he's on his back on the floor with Mace' lightsaber at his neck there's no getting out of that situation without outside help.

Personally, I'd be inclined to give Paplatine good odds if it were him and Mace Windu mano a mano, but in the context of four Jedi Masters versus one Sith Lord, you've got to give it to the Jedi. RotS choses to focus on the one on one duel (because it makes the choreography easier and because most fans have no idea who the other three Jedi are), but Palpatine couldn't have been happy to see four masters walk through the door with Anakin not among them. The snarl that he gives when they confront him is the first time his composure breaks during the PT.

I feel that Palpatine, in choosing to wink, wink reveal his Sith origins to Anakin fully expected that Anakin would demand to be among those who confronted him - which Anakin did. He gambled that the Jedi would want to bring one of their very best duelists along for the ride - Anakin and Mace fighting together as Jedi against Palptine would have taken him apart in seconds - and that he could manipulate the encounter that way. It was a high risk move for the ultimate reward, and Mace Windu's temporary victory illustrates just how close Palpatine came to failing. If Anakin had vacillated just a little longer - for instance if he'd tried to call Padme or Obi-Wan for advice - Palpatine would have been slain.

Saying that Palpatine had things the whole undercuts the Jedi even more than the PT already does. Mace Windu's decision to leave Anakin behind - and to induce him to stay put by making it into a test of trust - is one of the few unambiguously correct choices the Jedi Council makes during the whole trilogy.

[Traab]

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith. It takes everything that makes them dangerous, and uses it against them. If I understand it correctly, the stronger the sith, the more effective it is against them.

[Mith]

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith. It takes everything that makes them dangerous, and uses it against them. If I understand it correctly, the stronger the sith, the more effective it is against them.

My understanding is that that is more or less true. It builds up the flow of Dark Side energy, and since it is spiritually corruptive, and Sith just let the power flow through them, they lose the barriers to keep it from harming them.

[Darth Ultron]

No.

It was all part of the Plan.

Remember Jedi/Sith can see and sense the future, so Palptine should have had an idea of what was coming. Palptine foresaw Anakin would 'save' him.

But it's a bit much for Palptine to manipulate the whole galaxy for decades, and then just toss it all away for a five minute 'pew pew' fight. After all, the only reason Mace shows up to arrest Palptine...is because Palptine wanted that to happen. Out of nowhere Palptine 'suddenly' tells Anikin that he is a 'Sith Lord', right at the time he wants to 'escalate' things. It's not like the Jedi figure it out for real, by themselves.

The Mace vs Palptine fight is not exactly Epic....Mace just kinda 'wins' as Palptine 'gives up'. Like five minutes later when Palptine fights Yoda, he is suddenly all powerful....

[Dr.Samurai]

People have gone either way on this for ages, and probably always will. At the very least, even if Palpatine had been playing things up for Anakin's benefit, by the time he's on his back on the floor with Mace' lightsaber at his neck there's no getting out of that situation without outside help.

I don't think that's the case.

Mace doesn't look poised or resolved to kill Palpatine. He simply states to him "You have lost." It's after the sith lightning attack that Mace determines he is too dangerous to leave alive and he has to be killed.

Meaning, I really think Palpatine was playing that scene up. I mean... the only one harming Palpatine the entire time is... himself. Why continue blasting out sith lightning when Windu is reflecting it back to you? Because he's playing on Anakin's fears and emotions. "Don't let him kill me" he says, as he fries himself with his own lightning lol. Then he says something along the lines of "I can't hold on any longer" and "I'm weak" and he seems feeble and exhausted from the lightning damage and he's mewling and begging for his life. And when Anakin chops off Windu's arm suddenly he's blasting out more lightning and screaming at the top of his lungs, reveling in his violence. And all of that feebleness and weakness vanishes in an instant.

It's an act.

Regarding the lightsaber to the throat, well, we see how Mace goes to execute him. Plenty of time in that sword stroke for Palpatine to do... anything really. But I don't think we would have seen Palpatine in that position if Anakin wasn't on his way. We know Palpatine can sense Anakin from across the galaxy, so he knew Anakin was on his way. And Anakin found Palpatine exactly as he wanted to be found, at the mercy of Jedi Master Mace Windu, the traitor trying to take over the Republic.

...but Palpatine couldn't have been happy to see four masters walk through the door with Anakin not among them.

If that's the case, it's not because he feels threatened by their numbers, but because his plan was to have Anakin there. When Yoda confronts Palpatine, he tries to leave the room. When Windu and the other masters confront Palpatine, he cuts three of them down in a matter of seconds. Palpatine didn't seem to feel threatened at all by Windu or the others masters.

[Peelee]

Windu woulda won. Palps was throwing everything he had at him, as evidenced by his disfiguration. Regardless of whether his plan was to be at Mace's mercy or not, dude was still at his mercy. Alea iacta est.

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith.

His entire style was based around fighting something her believed no longer existed for a thousand years? That sounds about as useful as a four-star general at the Pentagon specialising in defense against Viking battle strategies.

No.

It was all part of the Plan.

Remember Jedi/Sith can see and sense the future, so Palptine should have had an idea of what was coming. Palptine foresaw Anakin would 'save' him.

Exactly, which is why he was able to forsee his victory over Endor and the end of the Rebellion.

[Dr.Samurai]

Windu's style is about skirting the Dark Side and channeling that energy into the lightsaber combat. It's not really about fighting Sith. It's more about confronting your own vulnerability to the dark side and using it to fight. Windu recognized a darkness in him (I think a penchant for violence IIRC) and that inspired his creation of vaapaad.

Take all this with a grain of salt because I haven't read the books in ages.

[Metahuman1]

I think Mace legitimately had him. I think he anticipated Anakin being right there in the room with them and being willing to start stabbing Jedi in the back at his prompting, and that when that didn't happen, he tried to fight his way out of it because now his back was too the wall.

I think when Anakin did finally show up, THEN he started to play it up, not as a master plan, but as a desperate bid to get out of the hole he was in and he was fortunate enough that it worked.


That if Anakin had talked to Obi-wan or Padme or Yoda before going there, even if he'd ignored there advice, the five minutes or so delay would mean he'd have walked in on Mace standing over the body's of Palpatine and the other Jedi Masters.

[Mechalich]

If that's the case, it's not because he feels threatened by their numbers, but because his plan was to have Anakin there. When Yoda confronts Palpatine, he tries to leave the room. When Windu and the other masters confront Palpatine, he cuts three of them down in a matter of seconds. Palpatine didn't seem to feel threatened at all by Windu or the others masters.

When Yoda confronts Palpatine, Palpatine could potentially summon hundreds of clone trooper reinforcements to obliterate Yoda rather than fighting him. So it makes sense to retreat and call for reinforcements if possible (this is also why Yoda can't just go back and try again after failing). That's not the case when the Masters confront Palpatine. If Palpatine flees at that time he loses everything. The Jedi declare him a fugitive, briefly take control of the Republic until a new Supreme Chancellor (probably Bail Organa) is appointed, and he is eventually hunted down. It's a win or die moment.

Yes Palpatine cuts down three of the four masters very rapidly, but this is fight choreography contrivance that is attributed to 'surprise.' The three other masters: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto were all formidable Jedi. Fisto - who actually does exchange a few blows with Palpatine, was a combatant equal to Grievous as shown in TCW.

Palpatine certainly plays things up after Anakin arrives. There's no doubt about that, but he actually attempts to use force lightning before he starts begging only to have it deflected. He's not in the place he wants to be.

I suspect Palpatine wanted the Jedi to walk in with Anakin and he could play up his defenseless nature before and fighting started and get Anakin to draw saber and stand between him and the Jedi, at which point Palpatine would have forced the instigation of combat and it would have been him and Anakin versus four Jedi - much better odds. Palpatine was vulnerable to being overwhelmed by numbers - Savage Oppress and Darth Maul were able to match him in a tag team even though he easily defeated them separately.

Ultimately, it's important that Mace Windu beats Palpatine in the confrontation, because otherwise it dramatically reduces the impact of Anakin's choice. If Palpatine could have beaten Windu regardless, then Anakin's fall does not significantly contribute to the emergence of the Empire. Order 66, the assault on the Jedi Temple, and the Separatist purge on Mustafar could all have happened without him. A fallen Anakin arguably contributes to Obi-Wan separating from Yoda rather than them both trying to assassinate Palpatine, but that seems like a reach. In the absence of unassailable evidence, I consider the fact that Mace winning makes the story better to be persuasive.

[Darth Ultron]

Just re-watch the fight.

Mace and Palpatine do a bit of a boring lightsaber fight, with Palpatine doing a couple flips and moves, but Mace just stands there and swings.

THEN, with Palpatine stops and waits while holding his lightsaber in front of him across his chest.

THEN Mace does a high kick, over Palpatine's lightsaber that he holds still, and kicks Palpatine in the face. Palpatine could have easily deflected that kick and cut Mace's leg off.

THEN, after being kicked in the face, Palpatine flies backwards and brings his arm from in front of his chest to spread out to the side.

THEN, for no real reason (other then his Evil Plot) Palpatine lets go of his lightsaber and tosses it out the open window.

AND mace ''disarms'' Palpatine, literately at the exact second Anakin walks into the room


So then we get to the bit where Palpatine shoots out the force lighting that Mace deflects/absorbs. So Palpatine shoots lighting for a couple seconds...

THEN, suddenly, Palpatine is ''so weak'' and his force lighting fades away and he begs Anakin for help.

BUT, one second, after Anakin turns to the Dark Side and cuts off Mace's hand...then SUDDENLY Palpatine is ALL POWERFUL.

[Lethologica]

Just re-watch the fight.

The problem with taking the choreography as dispositive is that they literally didn't teach Ian McDiarmid stage fighting before the scene, so the choreography is strongly influenced by out-of-universe concerns.

[factotum]

BUT, one second, after Anakin turns to the Dark Side and cuts off Mace's hand...then SUDDENLY Palpatine is ALL POWERFUL.

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there? Or was he so supremely confident in his own predictions that he didn't have such a thing? (Admittedly, that would match up rather well with his actions in the throne room in episode VI).

[Celestia]

I don't remember where it is, but if I remember correctly, Lucas gave Word of God on that scene that Windu had legitimately won. If Anakin hadn't shown up, Palpatine would have been finished right there.

[Anteros]

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith. It takes everything that makes them dangerous, and uses it against them. If I understand it correctly, the stronger the sith, the more effective it is against them.

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.

[Mechalich]

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.

During the PT Era, because of the Rule of Two the Jedi outnumbered the Sith 5000 to 1 - and that's after the order had spent a thousand years in declining numbers. While there are other force traditions that use lightsabers and fight similarly to the Sith, as well as some number of non-Sith dark jedi, they remain a minority of force users. There are more Nightsisters shown in a single episode of TCW than there are Sith in the entire galaxy. And force users in general aren't the most common threat Jedi face. Jedi were primarily trained for combat against mundane threats like criminals, pirates, rogue military forces, and even dangerous beasts. Insofar as most of the PT era Jedi acquired specialized combat training it was in fighting battle droids during the Clone Wars, considering they did that a lot.

Jedi in other eras may have been more focused in fighting Sith, because Sith were more abundant during those time periods, but even then lightsaber wielding opponents were relatively rare. Also, combat technology would change in response to an abundance of lightsaber-using assets on battlefields. In KOTOR, for example, everyone is carrying cortosis-weave vibroweapons that can duel lightsabers and there's an abundance of close-range technologies like flamethrowers in use to mitigate the advantage lightsabers have against straight-up blasters.

[Anteros]

During the PT Era, because of the Rule of Two the Jedi outnumbered the Sith 5000 to 1 - and that's after the order had spent a thousand years in declining numbers. While there are other force traditions that use lightsabers and fight similarly to the Sith, as well as some number of non-Sith dark jedi, they remain a minority of force users. There are more Nightsisters shown in a single episode of TCW than there are Sith in the entire galaxy. And force users in general aren't the most common threat Jedi face. Jedi were primarily trained for combat against mundane threats like criminals, pirates, rogue military forces, and even dangerous beasts. Insofar as most of the PT era Jedi acquired specialized combat training it was in fighting battle droids during the Clone Wars, considering they did that a lot.

Jedi in other eras may have been more focused in fighting Sith, because Sith were more abundant during those time periods, but even then lightsaber wielding opponents were relatively rare. Also, combat technology would change in response to an abundance of lightsaber-using assets on battlefields. In KOTOR, for example, everyone is carrying cortosis-weave vibroweapons that can duel lightsabers and there's an abundance of close-range technologies like flamethrowers in use to mitigate the advantage lightsabers have against straight-up blasters.

Sure, but you can't tell me someone like Windu wouldn't be effective against droids too. There's no reason to not train your fighters to defeat their single largest threat outside of sheer abject stupidity. Although to be fair, the Jedi do engage in that quite a bit so it's not exactly out of character.

[Lethologica]

Sure, but you can't tell me someone like Windu wouldn't be effective against droids too. There's no reason to not train your fighters to defeat their single largest threat outside of sheer abject stupidity. Although to be fair, the Jedi do engage in that quite a bit so it's not exactly out of character.

I don't know if this stuff even exists outside the EU, but...Naturally the people who came up with Mace Windu's lightsaber style asked themselves the same question you asked, and they strove to provide answers. The typical construction of lightsaber forms casts Form VII Juyo, from which Windu's Vaapaad style derives, as dangerous and difficult to learn. Vaapaad in particular is described as channeling one's inner darkness, and it is consequently both only narrowly suitable (Jedi without much inner darkness can't make full use of the form) and spiritually risky. The latter issue is borne out in practice: of the four 'notable' Vaapaad users (Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and Quinlan Vos), three fell to the dark side at some point, with Vaapaad being an element of their falls. Also, Vaapaad was created by Windu and one other Jedi, so there hasn't been a lot of time to address its issues or popularize the form.

In summary: despite being good against Sith, Vaapaad is not ubiquitous because it's (a) new, (b) dangerous, and (c) unsuitable for many Jedi.

[Aeson]

As far as the thread subject goes:
Certainly by the time Palpatine is disarmed and flat on his back, I'd be inclined to give the fight to Windu. Given how rapidly Palpatine dispatched the other three Jedi Masters who turned up to arrest him and given how well Palpatine did against Yoda, I'd be willing to believe that Palpatine could have beaten Windu, but not to the point that I feel that the only way Palpatine could possibly have lost is if he were throwing the fight intentionally.

That being said, and ignoring fight choreography issues, I would be very inclined to say that Windu being able to defeat Palpatine when Palpatine dispatched the other three Masters so rapidly strongly implies either that Palpatine is throwing the fight or that Windu is a much, much better duelist than the other three Masters were, even assuming Palpatine resisting arrest caught the Jedi completely off guard.

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.

Within the films, it really isn't true that Sith are the only credible threat to Jedi. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fled rather than fight the droidekas on the Trade Federation battleship; Jango Fett killed at least one Jedi in the arena on Geonosis before getting his head chopped off and the droid army certainly seemed to be on its way to overwhelming the Jedi before the clone army turned up; and relatively small numbers of clones don't seem to have too much difficulty killing most of the Jedi, even at the Temple where many of the Jedi would have had some time to recover from the initial shock of the betrayal and defend themselves.

Also, given that there are only two Sith and that the Sith have been in hiding for the better part of a thousand years, I would say that training Jedi for a threat that they're actually likely to encounter (multiple opponents with blasters) makes more sense than training them for a threat which apparently hasn't existed for a thousand years (small numbers of highly-trained Force sensitives armed with lightsabers), even if it were literally true that Sith are the only credible threat to a fully-trained Jedi who is not taken unawares.

[Vinyadan]

Windu was winning, and also falling to the dark side. He used the same arguments that the Sith Lord had used with Anakin to justify killing incapacitated prisoners. This ruffled Anakin's jimmies, and he cut Windu's hand off. Probably he saw the Jedi and the Sith as practically the same thing by now, with the difference that the one Sith he knew had given him a lot of nice things, and promised him more, while the Jedi had been keeping him restrained, forbidden his love, and frustrated his ambitions.

I never found Windu to be a badass, by the way. I think that that's what the marketing wants you to believe. In the movies, he looks like a guy who just woke up, has no distinctive character, and occasionally chops people up. So, you know, your standard, unnamed, cookie-cutter Jedi.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think Mace legitimately had him. I think he anticipated Anakin being right there in the room with them and being willing to start stabbing Jedi in the back at his prompting, and that when that didn't happen, he tried to fight his way out of it because now his back was too the wall.

I think when Anakin did finally show up, THEN he started to play it up, not as a master plan, but as a desperate bid to get out of the hole he was in and he was fortunate enough that it worked.


That if Anakin had talked to Obi-wan or Padme or Yoda before going there, even if he'd ignored there advice, the five minutes or so delay would mean he'd have walked in on Mace standing over the body's of Palpatine and the other Jedi Masters.

Windu and the masters went there to arrest him. There is no fight unless Palpatine wants a fight. If he is so outmatched by Windu and the others, why would he fight them? I think the plan was always seduce Anakin or kill Anakin and the Jedi that came with him to arrest him.

When Yoda confronts Palpatine, Palpatine could potentially summon hundreds of clone trooper reinforcements to obliterate Yoda rather than fighting him. So it makes sense to retreat and call for reinforcements if possible (this is also why Yoda can't just go back and try again after failing). That's not the case when the Masters confront Palpatine. If Palpatine flees at that time he loses everything. The Jedi declare him a fugitive, briefly take control of the Republic until a new Supreme Chancellor (probably Bail Organa) is appointed, and he is eventually hunted down. It's a win or die moment.

If the Jedi declare him a fugitive and take control of the Republic, Palpatine wins. He has them declared as traitors conducting a coup and he annihilates them. He already has a plan in place to do it.

Yes Palpatine cuts down three of the four masters very rapidly, but this is fight choreography contrivance that is attributed to 'surprise.' The three other masters: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto were all formidable Jedi. Fisto - who actually does exchange a few blows with Palpatine, was a combatant equal to Grievous as shown in TCW.

However it's choreographed, the script must have called for Palpatine to cut down three masters in mere moments, because that's what we see. If I can't believe that he is that much better than they are because of what I see on screen, how can I believe that Windu supposedly bested him?

Palpatine certainly plays things up after Anakin arrives. There's no doubt about that, but he actually attempts to use force lightning before he starts begging only to have it deflected. He's not in the place he wants to be.

I think he's exactly where he wants to be. To me, it looks like Windu is having difficulty with Palpatine in the moments right after the three masters are cut down. He's wide-eyed, gasping, breathing hard. Palpatine appears to be forcing him back. Then they lock up and Windu grabs him. We cut away here. When we return, they're back to sparring. Somehow Palpatine got out of that lock-up unscathed, despite Windu appearing stronger and supposedly being the superior warrior. Even in the chamber, right before the kick that disarms Palpatine, Windu has a serious countenance, whereas Palpatine appears to be enjoying himself.

When the Jedi come to arrest Palpatine, he's arrogant, angry, and immediately violent. It's like he's offended that they would dare presume to wield power over him. But when Palpatine is "disarmed", his demeanor changes completely. Is this because Windu has him at his mercy? I really don't think it is. I don't think Palpatine is out of the fight here like others do, but he makes it seem like he is by crawling backwards and mewling.

But consider previous fights (and fights to come):

What does Darth Maul do when Kenobi is too close? He force pushes him away.
What does Tyranus do in his fight with Anakin? He force pushes him away.
How does Tyranus escape Yoda? Telekinesis.
How does Tyranus defeat Kenobi? Force push and telekinesis.
How does Palpatine greet Yoda? Force push.
How does Palpatine overwhelm Yoda in the senate chamber? Telekinesis.

What does Palpatine do when Windu is all up in his grill? He whines and begs for his life. It's a show. He looks like he's defeated but that is hardly the case. Last I knew, Mace Windu isn't immune to Force Push. But instead of force pushing the jedi master right out the window, he decides to melt his own face off with Sith Lightning, because he needs to seduce Anakin.

I really don't think he was in danger there.

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there?

Plan B was kill Windu and Anakin.

Palpatine can sense Anakin from galactic distances away. And force-users can sense the spiritual conflict in others. My assumption is that Palpatine can sense Anakin returning to his chambers and, once Anakin is there, can sense if Anaking is Falling or not.

But if Anakin doesn't fall, Palpatine kills both of them.

[Darth Ultron]

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there? Or was he so supremely confident in his own predictions that he didn't have such a thing? (Admittedly, that would match up rather well with his actions in the throne room in episode VI).

I think he was supremely overconfident..it's his big character flaw.

He could of had some guards nearby.

[Traab]

I think he was supremely overconfident..it's his big character flaw.

He could of had some guards nearby.

As was mentioned he never used telekinesis in that fight, so he probably had that as a trump card if things went pear shaped.

[Drascin]

I tend to feel that Palpatine was probably pretty sure he got this. Right up until the point where it turned out that he did not, in fact, got this.

Total confidence in his own supremacy and infallibility has always been Palpatine's character flaw. It ends up being what kills him in Episode VI, and it's what nearly kills him here. I imagine he was pretty sure he could hold off Windu and the others easily until Anakin arrived and saw him being attacked unfairly, no worries. And then it turned out that it wasn't that easy and it nearly gets him killed.

But then Anakin came into the room, and Palpatine seized on that opportunity with both hands.

[Traab]

Another thought that popped into my head was. During his crawling moaning stage of the fight, its entirely likely palpatine planned to use the inevitable video from his security cameras of that part of the fight to show how the evil coup attempting jedi tried to murder a helpless crippled old man. Some careful editing could have pulled off a propaganda coup of the century. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if someone told me that this actually happened in the books afterwards. Remember, he had to convince the galaxy that the jedi were evil and deserved to be wiped out. How better than to show a high ranking member of the jedi council trying to murder him as he lay there helpless? Only escaping due to "pure luck" until his guards could protect him.

[Metahuman1]

Windu and the masters went there to arrest him. There is no fight unless Palpatine wants a fight. If he is so outmatched by Windu and the others, why would he fight them? I think the plan was always seduce Anakin or kill Anakin and the Jedi that came with him to arrest him.
If the Jedi declare him a fugitive and take control of the Republic, Palpatine wins. He has them declared as traitors conducting a coup and he annihilates them. He already has a plan in place to do it.

Let's say the Jedi arrest him and he went quietly.



Now he's in jail, cut off from financial and political power, during the last stages of the war.


He's cut off from Anakin, Grievous is as good as dead, and with out him the separatist leadership is going to fold like a towel and he knows it. Particularly since Grievous and Dukoo are out of the picture now. And there's a real risk this is going to be a wake up call to Either Anakin, or too Yoda and the council. Either they are going to figure out what's up with Anakin and that they need to make some changes to accommodate that, as there own method of not falling almost in itself cause The Chosen One to fall, or, they expel him from the Order and he just goes off and starts doing his own thing. We know other former Jedi have gotten working light sabers running, no reason to think he wouldn't do exactly that, go into a military career and with his credentials, rise VERY rapidly, or else go pro bounty hunter and just be an above board bounty hunter whom can command a crazy amount of money because of his insane ability to preform.

Maul is useless and the moment the separatists cave, the republic are going to go deal with him at The Jedi's insistence, as a matter of not leaving any loose ends to bite them in the butt.

The Jedi now have the unfettered access to his records to prove he at least has been up to no good. Probably enough to prove he was playing both sides of the war since before the start. And that's all they need.

He can't implement Order 66, but if they find out about that the games up. They nearly did once in the last year or so already, we saw that in the lost episodes of Clone Wars. And if they do that further destroys him.



Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong. He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.

Both plans failed, but then Anakin got there, and he played up being helpless and pleading and managed to get Anakin to back him at the last moment, and bail him out.

And again, if Anakin had made a call or two or three for advice before heading out, the galaxy would have been a very different place.

[Mechalich]

He's cut off from Anakin, Grievous is as good as dead, and with out him the separatist leadership is going to fold like a towel and he knows it.

Also, it is strongly implied that some members of said leadership, particularly Nute Gunray, have the goods to peg Palpatine as Sidious. Gunray would absolutely cut that deal in a nanosecond if given the chance.

Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong. He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.

I actually think Palpatine may have expected Anakin to stew on it for a bit longer. There's a case to be made that he expected General Grievous to kill Obi-Wan - he makes comments to this effect twice and Grievous came very close to accomplishing that particular feat. Had that happened not only would it have massively pushed Anakin towards the dark side it also probably would have resulted in another member of the High Council, potentially even Mace Windu, being dispatched to deal with Grievous instead. That would have downgraded the potential opposition in a final confrontation and made Anakin's presence much more likely. Also, if Grievous had lived and the Separatist cause gone on, Palpatine would have had considerably more room to maneuver in case the Jedi attempted to arrest him.

Palpatine's reveal to Anakin was going all-in. He was holding a very good hand when doing so - pocket aces for sure - and the Jedi were holding a bad one, but odds shift as the cards fall and they shifted briefly away from Palpatine before finally coming back around at the last moment.

[Dr.Samurai]

Let's say the Jedi arrest him and he went quietly.



Now he's in jail, cut off from financial and political power, during the last stages of the war.

Well, hang on now lol. The Jedi can't simply take over. I think this would be disastrous for the Jedi.

If Palpatine is going to go quietly, I don't think he'd reveal himself to Windu and the others. They only have Anakin's word to go on, they can't sense Sidious. So Palpatine gets arrested for...? Suspicion of being a Sith Lord? Having a high midichlorian count? How do they spin this move of barging into his office and arresting him with lightsabers blazing?

Windu tells him "The senate will decide your fate." Um, ok. What will you tell the senate Mace? "Anakin said Palpatine knows the ways of the Force, and he thinks he's the sith lord we've been looking for, so..."

Meanwhile, Palpatine loyalists will uncover the Jedi plot; Count Dooku never really left the Jedi Order. He was an operative acting out a grand conspiracy for the Jedi to take control of the Republic. The Jedi would use Dooku's Separatist movement to justify the creation of a Clone Army under their command. Working from both sides, Dooku and the Jedi would weaken the Republic's strength, while spreading their army out within its borders. Once in position, they will falsely accuse the Supreme Chancellor of treason and conspiracy, and instead of restoring power to the Senate, the Jedi will transfer over his emergency power to themselves, citing the presence of Sith as justification, and using their clone army to enforce their new rule.

Putting Palpatine in prison does not remove him from the game.

The Jedi now have the unfettered access to his records to prove he at least has been up to no good. Probably enough to prove he was playing both sides of the war since before the start. And that's all they need.

I think *if* Palpatine were the type of person to leave his plans for a secret take over of the Republic lying around his office, he'd probably encrypt them or program them to self-destruct or something along those lines. But that's the thing... there's Palpatine's persona and estate, and then there's the Sith "estate", handed down for thousands of years and added to by each successive master. So I'm skeptical they would find a lot from Palpatine's records.

He can't implement Order 66, but if they find out about that the games up. They nearly did once in the last year or so already, we saw that in the lost episodes of Clone Wars. And if they do that further destroys him.

*He* can't implement Order 66 from prison (presumably), but I'm sure Palpatine has contingencies for something along these lines. He has people loyal to him. If there's a contingency like "If the Jedi capture me, execute Order 66", it wouldn't even be that different from what we see in the movie. The Jedi make a move against "the Republic", and Palpatine uses his emergency powers to annihilate them.

Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong.

It seems unfair to accuse him of "supreme overconfidence" without acknowledging what would lead him to be confident in the first place, which is the fact that he is a master manipulator, strategist, tactician, and his cunning and foresight and planning have handed him the Republic on a silver platter.

In other words, you're saying he fumbled because he was overconfident, and I'm saying he's confident because his plans work as predicted.

He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.

One of the best duelists in the order, yes. I think Palpatine is the supreme force user and lightsaber combatant in the galaxy. I don't think Windu is too much for him. Obi-wan says he can't beat Sidious, we see Yoda fail to defeat him, and we know Anakin can't because he hasn't reached his full power yet. I don't think Windu is the exception here.

Both plans failed, but then Anakin got there, and he played up being helpless and pleading and managed to get Anakin to back him at the last moment, and bail him out.

When Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, he is weak and at Anakin's mercy "Are you going to kill me?" he asks meekly. Does anyone here really think that Anakin could have killed Palpatine in this moment??

When he faces off against the Jedi masters he is angry, reveling in the fight, snarling. Why? To push Windu into making that disastrous call, "He's too powerful to keep alive."

When Anakin arrives, he is once again weak, and at Windu's mercy, "Don't let him kill me".

It's all a performance. Palpatine is playing everyone.

Also, when Anakin says "I'm handing you over to the council", Palpatine says "... but you're not sure of their intentions." and Anakin says "I will discover the truth in all this." Palpatine replies "You have great wisdom, Anakin."

The truth Anakin discovers is the truth Palpatine is leading him to; the Jedi are evil and trying to take over. What's the proof? Mace Windu taking the power of the Senate into his own hands and attempting to execute the Supreme Chancellor, who is begging for his life.

We see the setup and the execution. Flawless victory.

And again, if Anakin had made a call or two or three for advice before heading out, the galaxy would have been a very different place.

Nah. Mace Windu had Palpatine unarmed, sure. That doesn't translate to victory/fight over. Remember when Obi-wan was disarmed and dangling in a shaft with a "victorious" Darth Maul looming over him? Was that fight over? Sure looked like it right? But these people have the Force. So... Obi-wan actually wins that fight.

The fight between Windu and Palpatine was far from over despite appearances. If Palpatine intended to simply stop/kill Windu, he could have. Even if we disagree on whether he would have succeeded or not, I think we can all agree that Palpatine could have Force Pushed Windu away, or throw furniture at him, or slip out of the window and land on a speeder below. The idea that Palpatine was defeated because he lost his lightsaber and Windu had him against the wall is preposterous to me.