Character Challenge : Let's beat Demon Lord Graz'zt in a sword duel

[Vorpalchicken]

You forgot that the Marilith can only do those 6 attacks if it has one sword in each hand. Here the Druid only has two.

Also the Druid doesn't have infinite Polymorph.

Or even one True Polymorph because he cast Foresight. A Marilith isn't a beast so your 4th level spell won't work.

[ThePolarBear]

What adamantine armour?

The one you need to cast Invulnerability, since you are not allowed "normal" components.

[Vaz]

The one you need to cast Invulnerability, since you are not allowed "normal" components.

Apparently so. Silly of me to assume, I guess.

[dejarnjc]

Anti Life Shell's radius doesn't protect again his greatsword's reach.

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

Anti-life shell has a radius of 10 ft (i.e. two squares out from PC in cardinal directions). Grazzt has reach of 10ft, which means he can attack if he's in the sq next to PC OR if there's 1 sq between him and PC but not if there are 2 sqs between.

So, if this is done on a battlemat, I believe that Grazzt would not be able to attack a druid or bard PC for an hour.

Assuming all this is true. A bugbear druid or bard with a polearm should be able to win this fight w/out being scratched once due to having 15ft. of reach on melee attacks.

This sounds cheesy, because it is, but works due to pg. 251 of the DMG which states that "If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square."



*EDIT* The need to use swords vs. a polearm does make this trickier.

*EDIT EDIT* Wait, you're a druid or a bard. You could just plink away at them w/ cantrips. That makes this easier.

[Naanomi]

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

Wait so... if they *cant* try to attack (because you are out of range in an unattackable place like the top of the arena; or have no chance of making the save against sanctuary) but really want to (ready an action in case the opponant ever enters range, or keep ‘trying’ the impossible save) does it disqualify or not?

[GlenSmash!]

The trouble with Zealot is that you lose this challenge at 0 HP, regardless of if you are still fighting or not

Ah. Loss by technicality. Lame.

[Unoriginal]

Wait so... if they *cant* try to attack (because you are out of range in an unattackable place like the top of the arena; or have no chance of making the save against sanctuary) but really want to (ready an action in case the opponant ever enters range, or keep ‘trying’ the impossible save) does it disqualify or not?

It doesn't disqualify them. The one staying protected in Sanctuary for 10 rounds would be DQ, however.

Ah. Loss by technicality. Lame.

Technically the rule says "0 HP, either dead or unconscious", so the Zealot wouldn't lose until their rage ends.

[GlenSmash!]

Technically the rule says "0 HP, either dead or unconscious", so the Zealot wouldn't lose until their rage ends.

Now we're talking.

My strategy would be very similar to Uzgul's Aasimar self-healing Zealot.

[No brains]

Could certain polearms count as swords? Glaive has etymological roots that tie it to swords, possibly making it count as a sword on a stick. How about other polearms such as a podao, zhanmadao, naginata, nagamaki, or similar pole-mounted long blade? If any of those are allowed, to what weapon do they equate?

I would say that this fits the spirit of the challenge if it can be considered within the letter. Using reach or PAM is still professing skill with a blade over magical trickery. It even invites the chance to seal a loophole- making it that swords must be wielded rather than used. A shortsword of warning is still 'used' for an advantage if it is on the character's person.

[Unoriginal]

Could certain polearms count as swords?

No.

I would say that this fits the spirit of the challenge if it can be considered within the letter. Using reach or PAM is still professing skill with a blade over magical trickery.

It doesn't fit the spirit of the challenge, because they're not swords.

It's not a blade vs magic trickery situation, it's a sword vs sword one.

It even invites the chance to seal a loophole- making it that swords must be wielded rather than used. A shortsword of warning is still 'used' for an advantage if it is on the character's person.

Why would you do that?

[Tubben]

Anti Life Shell's radius doesn't protect again his greatsword's reach.

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

You are good to ignore the more elementar parts of an post.

I use an water elementar and a LS or two. What will you do now ?

Since you dont write your strategy how you will fight, i need to adapt on the fly also.

So, my answer to your first question is:

I use an lv 20 Moon druid. Mobile, Resilient (const), Alert, Sentinel, Warcaster. LS is an Defender with +3 to AC and an Shield (+2AC). I cast Guardian of Nature (Primal Beast) (castime = 1 bonus action), gives +10 Movement, Str. Based attack Rolls with Advantage, +1d6 force dmg/attack.
GoN can be used with whildshape ( https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/...27935911301121 )

Since Concentration checks are rolled per dmg type, and each of it's own, my chance to keep my concentration is pretty high.

The Water Elementar has an CON of 18 (+4), with Profiency of 6 you need to do 24+ slashing or acid dmg so that i have to roll. Warcaster gives me advantage. Maximal non crit white dmg you can do is 30. My chance to roll a 5 with 2d20 is not to bad. Sure, if you crit me for max dmg (54 pts) i had to roll a natural 17 with 2d20. But then i can recast GoN the next round.

I will cast Longstrider in Round 2, which gives me another 10 Movement.

My Movement is 60, yours is 40. If you choose to teleport in, melee me twice and move out, i will still reach melee range on my turn. If really needed i can use wind elementar for a movement range of 120, which is enough to move from one end of the room to another.

If you choose to move in and teleport out to max range, i will follow you (so i dont get penalty for "not trying to reach you"), next round you can only move closer, or teleport in and move out. So, i will get you every second round in melee. And every other round i am free to cast some stuff to buff me.

You cast Greater Invisibilty, but dont have advantage, since i have alert. I dont have disadvantage, because of GoN

You cast sanctuary x3, last for 30 rounds, cant do much since i am not allowed to dispel magic you. Thats ok, i do Wisdom saving throws with +11, should still get ~50% (my rolling range is 12-31, vs your spell dc 23) of attacks in.

Could also start to cast forsight for 10 rounds, my chances are good i get that spell through and wildshape is not a spell, so i can still wildshape as an bonus action.
And i dont turtle and avoid fighting if i do this.

The few times you can get me out of my form because of crit luck, i can cast heal (fixed HP heal) 2 times for 70 hp, 1 times for 80 hp, 1 time for 90hp, 1 time for 100 HP.
After that i still have my spell slots for spell level 1-5 with weaker heals.

I will start with Regenerate in Casterform, which will start with an 4d8+15 and heals 1hp/turn. Need to discus if the effect stays in casterform or transform to elementar, because i just dont know - i never use that spell to be honest :-) If it do, then i use the lv 7 slot for another 80 hp heal :)

If the fight goes well, i will move into your space as an fire elementar, which ignites you. You need your action to douse the flame.

A cheap tactic for me would be to ignore attacking by myself, and just ignite you every round for 1d10 dmg (you are resistant, so it would take ages). If i am air, i could move to you, switch to fire, and back to air, using my action and bonus action. You need to ignore the flame and take the dmg or douse the flame and using your legendary action to attack me, or teleporting 120" away, which means, i reach you with 120" movement (Air 90, Longstrider 10", Mobile 10" and Guardian of Nature 10"). You could argue that Longstrider Movement and GoN movement dont stack, but even then, i only need to move 110 to get into melee range, since you are at the border, and i am one tile away, and you port to the other border, and i still have only to stay one tile away = 110".

I would probably not doing that, because it's stupid and takes to long, and you could also argue "all damage need to be done by sword".

[Vaz]

Concentration checks are taken per source of damage. Eg, 3 attacks hitting force 3 Concentration checks, with each one totalling Acid+Magic Slashing damage. You don't take 6 Conc checks? Unless I'm missing a rule?

[Tubben]

Concentration checks are taken per source of damage. Eg, 3 attacks hitting force 3 Concentration checks, with each one totalling Acid+Magic Slashing damage. You don't take 6 Conc checks? Unless I'm missing a rule?

Each source of damage is independent of the other. You roll against the slashing damage and then against the acid damage. Not combined.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22...-damage-taken/

Slashing dmg is an different source than the acid dmg.

[dejarnjc]

Each source of damage is independent of the other. You roll against the slashing damage and then against the acid damage. Not combined.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22...-damage-taken/

Slashing dmg is an different source than the acid dmg.

Wait, the source is the sword though right? It just happens to inflict both types of damage. Would you roll 2 CONC checks for meteor swarm too (bludgeoning & fire)?

[Unoriginal]

You are good to ignore the more elementar parts of an post.

Pointing out a detail isn't ignoring the rest. I just had no comment on it.

I use an water elementar and a LS or two. What will you do now ?

Since you dont write your strategy how you will fight, i need to adapt on the fly also.

I'm not going to do anything, this fight is not against me.

I use an lv 20 Moon druid. Mobile, Resilient (const), Alert, Sentinel, Warcaster. LS is an Defender with +3 to AC and an Shield (+2AC). I cast Guardian of Nature (Primal Beast) (castime = 1 bonus action), gives +10 Movement, Str. Based attack Rolls with Advantage, +1d6 force dmg/attack.
GoN can be used with whildshape ( https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/...27935911301121 )

Since Concentration checks are rolled per dmg type, and each of it's own, my chance to keep my concentration is pretty high.

So you're saying that you're not attacking nor using your Wildshape in the first round, since you're using both your action and your bonus action?

Given that you're PC is a Druid, what are your HPs in your base form?

I will cast Longstrider in Round 2, which gives me another 10 Movement.

So you're not attacking in the first two rounds, correct?

My Movement is 60, yours is 40. If you choose to teleport in, melee me twice and move out, i will still reach melee range on my turn. If really needed i can use wind elementar for a movement range of 120, which is enough to move from one end of the room to another.

True

You cast Greater Invisibilty, but dont have advantage, since i have alert. I dont have disadvantage, because of GoN

True.

You cast sanctuary x3, last for 30 rounds, cant do much since i am not allowed to dispel magic you. Thats ok, i do Wisdom saving throws with +11, should still get ~50% (my rolling range is 12-31, vs your spell dc 23) of attacks in.

Why would Graz'zt cast this?

Could also start to cast forsight for 10 rounds, my chances are good i get that spell through and wildshape is not a spell, so i can still wildshape as an bonus action.
And i dont turtle and avoid fighting if i do this.

You have to maintain Concentration during that time, though. So you have to drop your spell. And you're not attacking while you're doing this.

The few times you can get me out of my form because of crit luck, i can cast heal (fixed HP heal) 2 times for 70 hp, 1 times for 80 hp, 1 time for 90hp, 1 time for 100 HP.
After that i still have my spell slots for spell level 1-5 with weaker heals.

Impressive defensive arsenal, but if you don't tell the attacks and damage you do, I can't say if you can outlast Graz'zt.

Consider that Druids are not proficient with the longsword.

I will start with Regenerate in Casterform, which will start with an 4d8+15 and heals 1hp/turn. Need to discus if the effect stays in casterform or transform to elementar, because i just dont know - i never use that spell to be honest :-) If it do, then i use the lv 7 slot for another 80 hp heal :)

When are you casting this spell? Also, yes, the effect stay.

If the fight goes well, i will move into your space as an fire elementar, which ignites you. You need your action to douse the flame.

This is not damage or an effect you inflict through an attack, so it doesn't work.

[Naanomi]

You have to Wildshape fairly quickly, since all of those spells (except guardian, which I guess you could do first) have material components you don’t have access to in the arena

[Unoriginal]

You have to Wildshape fairly quickly, since all of those spells (except guardian, which I guess you could do first) have material components you don’t have access to in the arena

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?

[dejarnjc]

FYI elves are proficient in longswords so you could just make an elven druid.

[Envyus]

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?

Most spells. Graz'zt is fine for his spells as he does not need Material Components.

[Naanomi]

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?

Actually, my bad... Archdruid solves most of those problems (though is a big sticking point for other casters)

[Unoriginal]

Most spells. Graz'zt is fine for his spells as he does not need Material Components.

I know that. I was asking about which spells among the ones the Druid used. I know several healing spells would work.

[Tubben]

So you're saying that you're not attacking nor using your Wildshape in the first round, since you're using both your action and your bonus action?

First Round.
Action = Wildshape, Bonus action GoN (Voice)
Second Round
Action = Attack, Bonus Action Wildshape

After that i refresh Wildshape every Bonus Action, till i have to refresh GoN. Then Repeat at 1. If my Casterform gets to much damage, i use an action to heal the casterform and the bonus action to wildshape again.

Every dmg which transfer over to casterform (if he deals more than 114 hp / round) gets healed after casterdmg gets more than 70-100 hp (depends on the spellslot i have to use).

AC Water Elementar is 19 (Defender + Shield = +5AC).

I am not that good at math, could be better to use an earth elementar with 22 AC, and some more HP, but without resistance to Acid. Would give one more dmg, an better con save and 12 hp more. Could also be better to say 14 AC or 19 AC doesent matter, and i use 2 LS+3 instead of one LS and a Shield.

Given that you're PC is a Druid, what are your HPs in your base form?

Should be 145 or 165, not sure. Just use 145.

So you're not attacking in the first two rounds, correct?

Since Longstrider is VSM, and i cant use spells with Material Components, no :)

Why would Graz'zt cast this?

I just assumed it.

You have to maintain Concentration during that time, though. So you have to drop your spell. And you're not attacking while you're doing this.

I dont have to drop concentration on GoN to cast foresight.
But scratch that, foresight needs M

Impressive defensive arsenal, but if you don't tell the attacks and damage you do, I can't say if you can outlast Graz'zt.

LS dmg is 1D8+4 +1d6 force dmg.
+10 to hit. Advantage if he's not invisible.

Consider that Druids are not proficient with the longsword.

Elves are.

When are you casting this spell? Also, yes, the effect stay.

Regenerate is VSM, so i use that Slot for HEAL (VS)
= 2 x 70, 2x80, 1x90, 1x100 HP Heal (after that i have to fall back to spell levels 1-5).

This is not damage or an effect you inflict through an attack, so it doesn't work.

Aye, just scratch it :)

[Vaz]

As a heads up, you do need to maintain concentration when casting spells with a longer casting time. And regarding the material component for Foresight, you can still WS into a Hummingbird, pluck out a feather, and then you use that to cast Foresight afterwards.

Also, the source of damage regarding the acid damage is the sword;

lf you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.

You save against the Slashing+Acid damage. A Flaming Arrow would deal Piercing+Fire damage. Falling into a burning building would be taking damage from falling, and burning, but as these are two seperate sources. That Sage Advice you quoted just quotes the rulebook, it doesn't actually clarify what it means. Your interpretation is an understanding that the Acid and the Sword are different sources is not provided or reinforced in any way.

Also, regarding Wild Shape;

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

There is no animal that has Wild Shape in their stat block, so they are not physically capable of doing so. Mike Mearls has no say-so within the rules; Jeremy Crawford is the rules guy. Mike Mearls is the chap who created a Patron spell list for a Warlock already including spells on the Warlock spell list, for example. The guy doesn't do rules. Which is fine, but essentially a strawman.

[ThePolarBear]

Should be 145 or 165, not sure. Just use 145.

This doesn't sound right. 20*5+3 = 103. Cos mod acts as a multiplier for a value of 20. What method are you using to generate the HPs?

Also, regarding Wild Shape; [...] There is no animal that has Wild Shape in their stat block, so they are not physically capable of doing so.

This is a wild (haha) jump in logic.

Wild Shape is a magical class feature. It does not require any particular anatomy to be used as class as class description goes, so the text from wild shape does not prevent the use under the rule "it must be physically able to", be it present on the creature stat block or not. Even creatures that do not have a swim speed can swim, even if that is not listed under the stat block, just as they are able to breathe, jump, or otherwise act in ways that the stat block does not describe.

If you think about it, a human druid is no different physically from a non druid human. And an Elf Druid is still a druid, even if not human (and so on for any possible race).
Unless in a setting all druids have "wild shape" organs they are born with or implanted at some point in life there's no reason to think a Wild Shaped Druid loses the ability to WS just because "the form is incapable to".

[Vaz]

This is a wild (haha) jump in logic.

Wild Shape is a magical class feature. It does not require any particular anatomy to be used as class as class description goes, so the text from wild shape does not prevent the use under the rule "it must be physically able to", be it present on the creature stat block or not. Even creatures that do not have a swim speed can swim, even if that is not listed under the stat block, just as they are able to breathe, jump, or otherwise act in ways that the stat block does not describe.

If you think about it, a human druid is no different physically from a non druid human. And an Elf Druid is still a druid, even if not human (and so on for any possible race).
Unless in a setting all druids have "wild shape" organs they are born with or implanted at some point in life there's no reason to think a Wild Shaped Druid loses the ability to WS just because "the form is incapable to".

I'm literally reading the rules. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

No creature can wild shape without the Druid Class Feature. The Wild Shape ability then states you can only keep abilities from the Beast can physically do. An Avariel can't take the form of a Tiger and Fly, for example. The Wild Shape ability is not something that any animal can physically do. Ergo, you don't retain any features of your class [...] unless the form is physically capable of doing so. Until you can provide a page number telling me what animals can physically wild shape, this is what the rules say.

Given that we're being so tight on RAW in this thread, it seems pertinent to follow the RAW, no?

[ThePolarBear]

I'm literally reading the rules. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

No creature can wild shape without the Druid Class Feature. The Wild Shape ability then states you can only keep abilities from the Beast can physically do. An Avariel can't take the form of a Tiger and Fly, for example. The Wild Shape ability is not something that any animal can physically do. Ergo, you don't retain any features of your class [...] unless the form is physically capable of doing so. Until you can provide a page number telling me what animals can physically wild shape, this is what the rules say.

Given that we're being so tight on RAW in this thread, it seems pertinent to follow the RAW, no?

Given that the very same rule allows you to use class features, and Wild Shape is a class feature, and the restriction in Wild Shape is about being physically unable to perform an action, and Wild Shape is not physically limited in any way since it does not require any physical component whatsoever except being conscious, alive (or undead, actually) and with more than 0 hps.

The fact that a bear does or does not have wild shape in the stat block is irrelevant.

Example of physical impossibility: a snake holding a sword in one hand.

No physical action is required to Wild Shape. You do not need to wiggle hands, be able to speak, be able to have 4 limbs and 2 tails since you need to dance on 2 limbs while having your two tails in the two free limbs.

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.

[Naanomi]

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.

Interestingly, depending on how ‘realistic’ we want to be, most wildshape choices would be unable to read because of limitations of their fine detail visual systems

[ThePolarBear]

Interestingly, depending on how ‘realistic’ we want to be, most wildshape choices would be unable to read because of limitations of their fine detail visual systems

True. Some creatures have better motion than static perceptions. Others can't see some colours. I can't even imagine what a Velociraptor actually sees or hears. That is a physical difference = organs are different. Again, a snake is not going to hold a sword in a hand anytime soon. (Unless there are snakes with hands. You never know :D)

[Vaz]

Given that the very same rule allows you to use class features, and Wild Shape is a class feature, and the restriction in Wild Shape is about being physically unable to perform an action, and Wild Shape is not physically limited in any way since it does not require any physical component whatsoever except being conscious, alive (or undead, actually) and with more than 0 hps.

The fact that a bear does or does not have wild shape in the stat block is irrelevant.

Example of physical impossibility: a snake holding a sword in one hand.

No physical action is required to Wild Shape. You do not need to wiggle hands, be able to speak, be able to have 4 limbs and 2 tails since you need to dance on 2 limbs while having your two tails in the two free limbs.

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.

You're still ignoring the fact that no Beast physically can Wild Shape, which is the requirement of using the Wild Shape class feature while you are Wild Shaped. Also, no, unless a human can cognitively process what is there, a human cannot physically read. They can however see the written materials, which is different from reading. Example #2 of a physical impossibility, a snake using Wild Shape. Again, please point out the stat block which states that a snake is physically capable of Wild Shaping.

But sure, I mean, it's no skin off my back if you're willing to forego the Wild Shape rules to support your argument :). It's a game after all, and if that's how you prefer to run it, sure.

[Unoriginal]

You're still ignoring the fact that no Beast physically can Wild Shape, which is the requirement of using the Wild Shape class feature while you are Wild Shaped. Also, no, unless a human can cognitively process what is there, a human cannot physically read. They can however see the written materials, which is different from reading. Example #2 of a physical impossibility, a snake using Wild Shape. Again, please point out the stat block which states that a snake is physically capable of Wild Shaping.

But sure, I mean, it's no skin off my back if you're willing to forego the Wild Shape rules to support your argument :). It's a game after all, and if that's how you prefer to run it, sure.

Vaz, you're ignoring the fact a Wildshaped Druid can still use their class features ADDITIONALLY to the animal's statblock features. There is nothing in the animal form that would prevent to use the use of the Wildshape class feature.