Tank without "aggro": Stand still or improved trip?

[Hiro Quester]

Improved Trip (esp. with spiked chain) would be a good feat for a tank, right? Especially in a mostly core game, without access to a source of aggro (like Goad) or the Knight's "only attack me" challenge ability.

Unfortunately I'm probably going to be playing a dwarf cleric tank (War and Strength Domains, aiming for Ordained Champion and Radiant Servant PrCs), in a game with a limited stats array. After wis, str and con, I won't be able to afford the int to pull off Combat Expertise.

Plus tripping is feat-expensive for a cleric. Combat expertise, Weapon proficiency (probably spiked chain), and improved trip take three feats. That's feat-expensive for a non-fighter who doesn't get bonus feats.

The Stand Still feat looks a like a good substitute.

As I read it, Stand Still lets you use an attack of opportunity to stop someone in their tracks, instead of moving past you to attack one of your squishy allies that you are protecting. Instead of taking damage from your AOO, they have to make a reflex save vs. the damage you would cause if you hit. If they don’t beat it they have used up their movement.

They presumably would have a standard action left to attack you instead of their original target, with the rest of their turn. (If they can reach; I'm playing a greataxe-wielding cleric who will be using Enlarge Person a lot, so I might have the reach to stop them where there is nobody to attack.

Has anyone used this feat? Does it work as well in practice as I'm expecting, based on how it looks on paper?

I'm also not going to initially have much dexterity. So Combat Reflexes is probably put of the question. Does this only work well with combat reflexes to enable more AOOs?

[BowStreetRunner]

I have used it to devastating effect. However, my character was built to be a spiked chain tripper. Fighter/Crusader iirc, with all of my feats dedicated to using the chain to lock down a wide area around me, a bunch of maneuvers with fantastic synergy for the build, and a Dwarvencrafted Adamantine Living Chain. I may have had a couple odd levels - Annointed Knight or Exotic Weapon Master maybe? I don't know where the character is anymore. He's off living life as a Bodak since chain trippers don't really have any bonuses against Death Gaze.

It works best if you have a very large reach. Even better if you are fighting in an area that is somewhat enclosed so they can't just go around.

The real trick about the lockdown was to be able to counter ANYTHING they tried to do. Combat Reflexes and high DEX to get lots of Attacks of Opportunity. After that, Stand Still gets them if they move. Mage slayer gets them if they cast. Defensive sweep gets adjacent opponents who don't move. Close quarters fighting gets them if they attempt to grapple. Thicket of Blades gets them if they move, even if it normally wouldn't provoke - like withdraw. Defensive Rebuke gets them if they attack anyone else. Get the picture?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Throw on Dragonborn of Bahamut with the Heart aspect, and take Entangling Exhalation from that same book. Use that as often as possible to keep opponents debuffed, it will be far more difficult for them to move past you and they'll be taking damage from it every round. That way they'll realistically see your character as both a credible threat and the best available target, and focus attacks on you instead of softer party members.

[Esprit15]

If you want to trip, a high INT character can dip three levels of Factotum for their INT as a bonus on trip attempts.

As for tanking, Crusaders are excellent tanks. Thicket of Blades Stance, healing allies while they hit enemies, they do what a good tank wants to do.

[Hiro Quester]

This is a mostly core game. DM will perhaps approve particular feats, spells, PrCs on a case by case basis, if they fit the character and story and are not too overpowered.

But ToB stuff is way out. So no crusader. Or artificer.

And it's a limited array game (15,13,13,11,11,9). I am investing in wisdom, strength and con. So I don't have much left for dex and int. So combat expertise would need a +int item.

The main question is whether Stand Still, on a cleric using greataxe and enlarge person, divine power, righteous might, etc., can be effective in stopping people.

Does it need combat reflexes and lots of dex?

[Red Fel]

The main question is whether Stand Still, on a cleric using greataxe and enlarge person, divine power, righteous might, etc., can be effective in stopping people.

Does it need combat reflexes and lots of dex?

Short version? Kinda.

Stand Still is a great feat. But if you only have the one AoO, you're only good for locking down the one opponent. For that reason, pretty much everything else becomes irrelevant - reach, size, and so forth - because you only need to threaten one enemy, and hit him any time he moves.

It really shines with a reach weapon and lots of AoOs. At that point, your entire threatened area becomes a zone of "You will not pass!" Anyone who moves triggers that AoO. It forces them to engage with you once you're threatening them, because any attempt to move away from you is met with a solid face full of "Nope." And it's good against a small group of enemies, as opposed to just the one. Enemies aren't movie ninjas who attack one at a time; they engage en masse, and you need to be able to defend against the group, not just one, to remain useful.

The key to "tanking" ultimately boils down to taking actions when it's not your turn - that is, having the ability to interrupt an opponent's actions. And that, generally speaking, boils down to AoOs. And that, generally speaking, requires Combat Reflexes and lots of Dex.

[emeraldstreak]

Stand Still from a feat. Improved Trip from a 2nd level Wolf barbarian.

[BowStreetRunner]

The main question is whether Stand Still, on a cleric using greataxe and enlarge person, divine power, righteous might, etc., can be effective in stopping people.

Does it need combat reflexes and lots of dex?

1. You can only use this ability as many times as you have Attacks of Opportunity. So without Combat Reflexes you are getting it once per turn.
2. It only works if you can get the save DC higher than they can make a Fort Save. So if you are doing low damage, it won't be effective.
3. It does not prevent all movement, just movement into and out of your threatened area. So they can't close with you or leave your threatened area, but they can still move anywhere else.
4. It does not prevent them from taking other actions. So once you have them stopped, you need to figure out what you are going to do with them. They can take another action on their next turn, or even try to move again if they feel they can handle the damage and make the save. And if you use your AoO on something else they are free to try again on their next turn.
5. It does not stop anyone else unless you have another AoO. It only takes two to bum rush you.

I honestly do NOT believe Stand Still is a great feat for someone who isn't using Combat Reflexes (with even a +2 or +3 from DEX) AND doing high damage. It will sometimes prove helpful but there are probably better feats to fill that slot.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks. I may have to move stats around to figure out how to get more dex, and still keep wisdom and con decent. The 15, 13, 13 11, 11, 9 array is difficult to use to keep wis and combat stats relevantly high.

Strength buffs (e.g. Divine Power) might be a good compensation for lower damage initially.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With that stat array you'll probably need to use a race that gets more favorable bonuses in exchange for penalties to your current dump stats.

You could dump Dex even harder and use Earth Dwarf, if available.
A Wood Elf gets +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int and it's from the core MM.

Making your character middle age gives -1 Str, Dex, Con, and +1 Int, Wis, Cha, all the stats in that array are odd-numbered so this is actually quite viable.

A middle-age Earth Dwarf could go Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10, or even Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

[Troacctid]

Why not both? Exotic Weapon Proficiency (ritiik)!

[Telonius]

For Combat Expertise - I know, thou shalt not lose caster levels, and ugh, Monk. But, two levels of Passive Way Monk will get you Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as Monk bonus feats, even if you don't meet the prereqs.

Wolf Totem Barbarian also gets Improved Trip at 2nd.

[Hiro Quester]

I was already strongly considering Earth Dwarf (bumps to Str and con, penalties to cha and dex, plus an extra +4 on top of Dwarf's +4 bonuses to resist bullrush, overrun and trip).

I had not thought of being middle-aged. It's a little cheesy, but my backstory could totally fit with that, though.

It's a good way of turning those odd numbers into even numbers, though. And getting a small bump to str and con for a small cost to Int and Cha (make them 10s instead of 9s), and an extra bump to wisdom and an extra penalty to dex.

It still means dumping Dex, which defeats the Stand Still + combat reflexes route, though. I'm starting to think that the benefits of Cleric as tank are good, but trying to be a tripping AO tank just isn't viable.

The passive way monk is an interesting option for a dip. But losing 2CL for two feats (and some other good bonuses: save bumps, wis to AC when unarmored, Improved unarmed strike) is a lot. Plus I really don't want to have to be lawful (possibly aiming for Radiant Servant of Pelor). No thanks.