Demon Pretending to be a Cleric's God?

[HikerChris]

A Little Backstory;
The Cleric is a cleric of Rao (god of peace), and he ran into a recurring character, an Iron Shadow Hobgoblin, who devoted themselves to Bane (god of war). After the encounter, I had the Cleric have a vision where his god spoke to him. I realized while it was happening, that this should have happened much, MUCH later, seeing as though he was only level THREE.

I was wondering if it would be cool, or a complete jerk move to make it turned out that it was a Glabrezu pretending to be the god, having the Cleric completely fooled and in the palm of his hand, waiting for him to die and claim his soul.

[JackPhoenix]

I realized while it was happening, that this should have happened much, MUCH later, seeing as though he was only level THREE.

Why? There's no required minimal level to be spoken to by the gods. Cleric could've easily had a talk with his god while he was still commoner, before he took the first PC level. Gods can do whatever they want, certain rules non-withstanding.

[gloryblaze]

This sort of thing is definitely in character for demons. In fact, it's mentioned to be the modus operandi of the demon prince Fraz-Urb'luu in his appendix write up in Out of the Abyss.

Many of the cultists of Fraz-Ur'bluu aren't even aware they serve the Prince of Deception, believing their master is a beneficient being and granter of wishes, some lost god or celestial, or even another fiend. Fraz-Urb'luu wears all these masks and more. He particularly delights in aiding demon hunters against his demonic adversaries, driving the hunters to greater and greater atrocities in the name of their holy cause, only to eventually reveal his true nature and claim their souls as his own.

If, in your setting, the gods are meant to be somewhat distant - only speaking to powerful priests and clerics - then it would absolutely be within genre to say the vision came from a demon in service to Fraz-Urb'luu (or even directly from the Prince of Deception himself!). It could be a fun way to introduce a recurring villain, who works against the party by manipulating them and others form behind the scenes. Just make sure to foreshadow it heavily and give the Cleric a chance to save his soul by refusing the horrific requests his patron eventually makes.

On the other hand, in many D&D settings, the gods are quite active and regularly communicate with mortals. In such a setting, it's entirely possible that a 3rd Level character received a divine vision. It needn't have even been a cleric. Some gods just hand out prophecies like candy.

In the end, it's up to you how you handle it. In my experience, introducing a villain in the guise of an ally and then laying on the foreshadowing thicker and thicker as time goes on until the players figure it out for themselves and get to feel like badass masters of deduction can make for a great moment in a campaign. On the other hand, pulling a "Gotcha!" with little to no way to avoid it can be major BS and can lead to bad blood.

[Unoriginal]

All Clerics are the personally-hand-picked Chosen Ones of their god, so I dunno why speaking with your god at lvl 3 would be inappropriate.

Also, while a Demon could pretend to be someone's god, that wouldn't give it their soul. The actual god would have the soul unless the Cleric starts commiting things he cannot tolerate, at which point the Cleric would lose their power. The god can appears and tell them "wtf", though.

Could be interesting to have a Demon pretending to be the god of peace tempting people toward inaction, passivity, sloth and letting bad guys get their ways. Like "this bandit attack is of no concern to you. Fighting others for others' sake is only prolonging the strife. Let them defend their own."

[gloryblaze]

All Clerics are the personally-hand-picked Chosen Ones of their god, so I dunno why speaking with your god at lvl 3 would be inappropriate.

Also, while a Demon could pretend to be someone's god, that wouldn't give it their soul. The actual god would have the soul unless the Cleric starts commiting things he cannot tolerate, at which point the Cleric would lose their power. The god can appears and tell them "wtf", though.

Could be interesting to have a Demon pretending to be the god of peace tempting people toward inaction, passivity, sloth and letting bad guys get their ways. Like "this bandit attack is of no concern to you. Fighting others for others' sake is only prolonging the strife. Let them defend their own."

I don't think it's the act of pretending to be the god that grants Fraz-Urb'luu your soul, it's he fact that he tricks you into committing Evil acts and thus corrupts you. Or something like that. The text is pretty clear that he does get to claim your soul if his gambit succeeds, so it happens some way or another. It also mentions that he reveals himself in the end, so maybe that reveal happens at approximately the same time as when the god appears to go "wtf dude" and take away your powers (which I agree is a likely occurrence if the mortal in question is a cleric as opposed to, say, a paladin or fighter)

[Unoriginal]

I don't think it's the act of pretending to be the god that grants Fraz-Urb'luu your soul, it's he fact that he tricks you into committing Evil acts and thus corrupts you. Or something like that. The text is pretty clear that he does get to claim your soul if his gambit succeeds, so it happens some way or another. It also mentions that he reveals himself in the end, so maybe that reveal happens at approximately the same time as when the god appears to go "wtf dude" and take away your powers (which I agree is a likely occurrence if the mortal in question is a cleric as opposed to, say, a paladin or fighter)

Well, it's different with Fraz. He's not pretending to be, say, Pelor, or Corellon, he's pretending to be an Original Character Do Not Steal good god, tricking you into dedicating yourself to him, and then going "gotcha" once you're depraved enough.

Even if he did try to impersonate someone's existing deity, the trick would be to make them sign up for his own cult unwittingly by commiting horrors in his name while thinking you're acting in the name of your god.

[Cespenar]

You don't have to retcon it anyway. Experience isn't the only basis on being in a god's favor. I believe even being a PC is an enough "spark" for the cleric's god to at least have a momentary interest in them.

[gloryblaze]

Well, it's different with Fraz. He's not pretending to be, say, Pelor, or Corellon, he's pretending to be an Original Character Do Not Steal good god, tricking you into dedicating yourself to him, and then going "gotcha" once you're depraved enough.

Even if he did try to impersonate someone's existing deity, the trick would be to make them sign up for his own cult unwittingly by commiting horrors in his name while thinking you're acting in the name of your god.

Yeah that second paragraph was what I was getting at. I feel like Fraz would totally be willing to impersonate an existing god if he was bored and in the mood to corrupt a cleric already in service to a god

[Wilb]

Well, it's different with Fraz. He's not pretending to be, say, Pelor, or Corellon, he's pretending to be an Original Character Do Not Steal good god, tricking you into dedicating yourself to him, and then going "gotcha" once you're depraved enough.

Even if he did try to impersonate someone's existing deity, the trick would be to make them sign up for his own cult unwittingly by commiting horrors in his name while thinking you're acting in the name of your god.

Well Rao the god of peace may not be an "Original Character Do Not Steal good god", he is the god of peace from greyhawk since 1983, so, while it is true that the setting is a mishmash of FR & Greyhawk due to the mention of Bane, it seems to be that the OP took the god and put it in his setting.


Now, OP, if this Rao is the one you put in your campaign, it makes more sense to have a Devil, not a Demon, impersonating him, as it is a recurring thing that devils managed to thwart Rao's efforts many times, with demons being specially affected by his relics and so on and Devils are known to power mortals with pacts and such. Maybe you could read about Rao's Crook, and have the devil guide the cleric to reach and activate it in a ritual to give Devils an edge on the Blood war or something.

But Fraz-Urb'luu could be involved instead, maybe doing the reverse, trying to have the Crook affect Devils instead of demons.

[Unoriginal]

Well Rao the god of peace may not be an "Original Character Do Not Steal good god", he is the god of peace from greyhawk since 1983, so, while it is true that the setting is a mishmash of FR & Greyhawk due to the mention of Bane, it seems to be that the OP took the god and put it in his setting.

My point was that since Rao is an actual god, and not something the Demon made up as a cover, it'd be way harder to impersonate him and deceive the Cleric.

Now, OP, if this Rao is the one you put in your campaign, it makes more sense to have a Devil, not a Demon, impersonating him, as it is a recurring thing that devils managed to thwart Rao's efforts many times, with demons being specially affected by his relics and so on and Devils are known to power mortals with pacts and such. Maybe you could read about Rao's Crook, and have the devil guide the cleric to reach and activate it in a ritual to give Devils an edge on the Blood war or something.

But Fraz-Urb'luu could be involved instead, maybe doing the reverse, trying to have the Crook affect Devils instead of demons.

Or it could still affect Demons, and the Demon wants to deal with that despite the difficulty.

[Gorgo]

To me, this would depend a lot on what opportunities you provided for the character to figure out what's going on and get out of it. Finding out when your character dies that he/she has been tricked, is now eternally hosed, and there was no good way for you to have done anything about it is no fun. Getting some misleading information, taking a few steps down the wrong path, and then having a way to figure out what's going on and turn the tables is an interesting plotline (IMO).

[Anonymouswizard]

I realized while it was happening, that this should have happened much, MUCH later, seeing as though he was only level THREE.

How is this a problem.

It's a deity, the difference between a level three cleric and a level twenty cleric is miniscule compared to the difference between a level twenty cleric and a god. Characters that have the Cleric class commune with their god from level 1.

A level three cleric is already more important in their god's eyes than 99% of the population, and is a great game piece to move into position for five to eight levels in the future. Give them good information and help while they're inexperienced and when they have the ability to receive high level spells they'll be willing to listen to you, and be used to receiving your visions.

I mean, level twenty is only a few years of adventuring away from level three, that's nothing to a god. They had to wait millennia for their first level one clerics to appear, they can wait months to decades for the affects of their granted visions to truly manifest.

[Pex]

At level 3 clerics are casting Augury. They're already speaking to their deity and getting an answer back.

In any case, tread very carefully. As DM you have great power. When the DM speaks as a cleric's deity, the player has no reason to suspect otherwise. Even though the demon wants to trick the character, it's actually you wanting to trick the player, and that's screwing over the player for your own jollies territory. You need to give clues the one speaking to the cleric is an impostor and not just from the visions themselves. Since the cleric thinks Rao is speaking to him, Rao actually speaking to him to say the other one is false won't work, so Rao sends omens. When speaking to some noble NPC the cleric notices his child is reading a children's story about someone being lied to. A random encounter has the party hear a sound in the woods. They're convinced it's a particular type of creature, but when they confront it it's something else.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think that'd depend on the player. But if you think having the god speak to the cleric at level three has disrupted the tone, have the god go silent. He's got other clerics, you know. And make sure the other players feel like their characters are also important, consider digging through their backstories for a bit.

If you really want to mess with the cleric, have another cleric show up with visions from Rao...But receiving a completely different set of orders. If the player really felt invested in their visions they won't feel cheated, but it might sow some seeds of doubt. And then have the cleric get two different sets of orders himself...

And then have this NPC cleric mess with the party. Maybe they share a race with one of the PCs, or come from a similar background. Maybe they want to kill half-orcs and tieflings. Maybe they knew another character's family.