OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Peelee]

Huh. I wonder if Hilgya knows this will work, or if she's just heading her bets.

[meto30]

A most wonderfully tasty social critique on Helgya's part. I find myself especially relating to it, as my culture is also rather heavily honour-bound.

[wingedcatgirl]

I believe there are spells a cleric can use to directly ask their god a question, so I figure she's checked.

Also I imagine this idea came from Loki in the first place, but maybe that's not so strong an indicator of its validity.

[hroþila]

I believe there are spells a cleric can use to directly ask their god a question, so I figure she's checked.

Yeah, but we know Loki ignored her until it was in his best interest to give her the information she wanted. And I'm not sure communicating to her that "nope, worshipping me is a waste of time and a huge risk" would be in his best interest.

That said, if no one else contradicts her or challenges her point, I guess it might well be true. Wouldn't be the first time some cheesy technicality deprives Hel of her share of souls.

[hamishspence]

Seems like an inverted Catch 22 - a Catch 55?

[Peelee]

A most wonderfully tasty social critique on Helgya's part. I find myself especially relating to it, as my culture is also rather heavily honour-bound.

Oh man, I know exactly what you mean. Wife's family is Korean, and while I loved just about everything while I was over there, the pressure on the people can get ridiculous.

Yeah, but we know Loki ignored her until it was in his best interest to give her the information she wanted. And I'm not sure communicating to her that "nope, worshipping me is a waste of time and a huge risk" would be in his best interest.

That said, if no one else contradicts her or challenges her point, I guess it might well be true. Wouldn't be the first time some cheesy technicality deprives Hel of her share of souls.

Agreed. I would be a little surprised if the gods answered relatively mundane questions straightforward direct to any and all of their clerics, but not unpleasantly so.

[Knick]

So she is. . . chaotic neutral? not particularly malicious, but not working for the greater good?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Definitely not surprised to see that Hilgya has this opinion of the Dwarven honor system. However, I do have to wonder if she actually knows if this will work, or if this is all just a working theory. If she does know it works, then no wonder Hel is so pissed at Loki, considering how far he’s going out of his way here to give people a loophole out of Hel.

[wingedcatgirl]

I mean, I'd argue that "simultaneously freeing people from the shackles of an oppressive cosmology and the oppressive social structure that was created to handle the former" is a pretty Chaotic Good life plan.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean she is a Chaotic Good person.

[PH7]

Attagirl Hilgya. Fight the system!

I suppose this is how Blaise Pascal would have argued had he lived in the OotS world...

[endiku]

Nice logic loop

[In4Dimensions]

I love the fleshing out of Hilgya’s character. “I like my chances” haha.


Also, first page! Woot!

[Peelee]

Attagirl Hilgya. Fight the system!

I suppose this is how Blaise Pascal would have argued had he lived in the OotS world...

You know the joke about Einstein, Newton, and Blaise playing hide and seek in the afterlife, yes?

[GooeyChewie]

If she dies with regular honor, Hel doesn’t get her anyway. And if she dies with “I followed my diety” honor, Hel still doesn’t get her. Nice!

[Yana]

Be honest Giant, how much fun are you having adding Kudzu reacting in every panel?

[hamishspence]

I mean, I'd argue that "simultaneously freeing people from the shackles of an oppressive cosmology and the oppressive social structure that was created to handle the former" is a pretty Chaotic Good life plan.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean she is a Chaotic Good person.

Indeed. We know from War & XPs commentary that she was Evil at the time of her meeting with Durkon - though it's possible that she may have changed alignment since then.

[wingedcatgirl]

Ooh, given that "plane shift over to the afterlife" has been previously established as a method of confirming how it works, I think it's likely that, if not Hilgya, someone in the Church of Loki has plane shifted into his afterlife to find a dwarf who used this logic and see if it really worked.

[Fnordius]

So she is. . . chaotic neutral? not particularly malicious, but not working for the greater good?

Fitting, as the original Durkon was Lawful Neutral. He was all about the Law (of dwarves), and only Good because it fitted with what his friend Roy was. And she was supposed to be his opposite.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, but we know Loki ignored her until it was in his best interest to give her the information she wanted. And I'm not sure communicating to her that "nope, worshipping me is a waste of time and a huge risk" would be in his best interest.

That said, if no one else contradicts her or challenges her point, I guess it might well be true. Wouldn't be the first time some cheesy technicality deprives Hel of her share of souls.

Actually, I'm getting this feeling that this was the angle that drove Loki to suggesting the bet in the first place: notice that this gives Loki the chance to become the only god a dwarf can worship, if they want to escape the honor system. If he was not particularly liked by dwarves before, this way he got rid of the competition (Hel, which we know was worshiped by default in World 1.0) and gives the dwarves a reason to follow him, despite them generally not being chaotic.

I mean, I'd argue that "simultaneously freeing people from the shackles of an oppressive cosmology and the oppressive social structure that was created to handle the former" is a pretty Chaotic Good life plan.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean she is a Chaotic Good person.

Given that her actual reason for doing it is just so she doesn't have to follow the honor rules at all, and the other things is just in the nature of a bonus verging of afterthought, I think "Good" is definitely not it. Jury's still out on whether she's Neutral or outright Evil, IMnpHO.

You know the joke about Einstein, Newton, and Blaise playing hide and seek in the afterlife, yes?

No, I don't. Please, do tell (or link, if it's not forum-appropriate content).

Grey Wolf

[chrestomancy]

I mean, I'd argue that "simultaneously freeing people from the shackles of an oppressive cosmology and the oppressive social structure that was created to handle the former" is a pretty Chaotic Good life plan.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean she is a Chaotic Good person.

Couldn't agree more. Loved this strip.

I'm convinced Hilgya is Chaotic. I would be prepared to believe anything on the Good->Evil scale at this point, particularly when you think about how much the OotS has changed and developed since we last saw her, she's had plenty of opportunity to grow. I can't wait to see how the Hilgya/Kudzu/Durkon/NotDurkon dynamic will develop!

[hroþila]

Actually, I'm getting this feeling that this was the angle that drove Loki to suggesting the bet in the first place: notice that this gives Loki the chance to become the only god a dwarf can worship, if they want to escape the honor system. If he was not particularly liked by dwarves before, this way he got rid of the competition (Hel, which we know was worshiped by default in World 1.0) and gives the dwarves a reason to follow him, despite them generally not being chaotic.

That does sound like a plausible motivation for Loki, beyond the simple "for the lulz". Even if he didn't actually become the main god among the dwarves, he might well have a bigger share than he would otherwise.

[hamishspence]

Fitting, as the original Durkon was Lawful Neutral. He was all about the Law (of dwarves), and only Good because it fitted with what his friend Roy was.

Origin of PCs makes it crystal clear Durkon was Good even before he teamed up with Roy. So good, in fact, that he's willing to protect his fellow adventurers (in the party he was in before Roy and him started adventuring together) despite the fact that they are trying to get him killed, and he knows it.

[Grey Watcher]

Whether he's explicitly told his followers or not, it's certainly fitting with his style. This is the same being that put his head up in a wager and, upon losing, weaseled out of it by claiming that his neck wasn't part of the deal and they could only have his head if they could figure out how to get it without damaging his neck. Exploiting loopholes is a big part of his whole thing.

[Jasder]

Aww, Elan and Kudzu waving at each other. So cute. Which one do we reckon has a higher intelligence score?

[DaOldeWolf]

I like how she thinks. I think I made the right choice choosing Loki as my god of from OOTS. Praise Loki!

[GudBelkarIsGud]

I'm not sure I've ever liked a depiction of Loki's mores and his followers as much as I have this strip's description. Granted, this could just be Hilgya's personal (mis)interpretation of how worshipping Loki should be, but it actually does sound appealing.

Re: Hilgya's good/evil/neutral orientation - I would be really surprised if she's "good". Looking back at her entire history as presented in-story, everything we've seen of her so far points her toward neutral at best. I mean, even her stated reason for helping save the world ("petty, self-serving") stray far, far from the "good" side of things.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That does sound like a plausible motivation for Loki, beyond the simple "for the lulz". Even if he didn't actually become the main god among the dwarves, he might well have a bigger share than he would otherwise.

I get the feeling that very few actions by Loki are ever solely "for the lulz". This is the guy, after all, that said "Humiliating Thor is not enough of a reason to do this, Hel. It's a pretty funny reason, sure but not enough of one" (source). Loki always has an angle he can exploit in his schemes, and I have been waiting to hear what his reason to propose the bet was.

Mind you, I'm not 100% sold on it - in part because for all we know this is a delusion from Hilgya, in part because Loki is also known for plans within plans, and there could always be another twist to his thinking (to misquote Pratchett, "He's so twisted he could walk sideways through a corkscrew")

Grey Wolf

[2D8HP]

Seeing a D&D Dwarf saying something is "totally bogus" brightened my morning.

Thanks The Giant/Rich!

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering if Valhalla really is the default afterlife for all dwarves, because the whole Northern Pantheon resides there, or if the Northern Pantheon members each reside on whatever plane suits their alignment - and dwarves only think Valhalla is the default because a few of the best known Northern Pantheon members live there?

If Loki does not reside in Valhalla but in Pandemonium, the Abyss, or Tarterus, then Hilgya may be wrong in her assumption that "acting according to Loki's honor code" gets her into Valhalla.