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2018-02-21, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Hint: the author has gone to great lengths to differentiate dwarven and human culture. He also hints at such distinctions between humans, elves, goblins and dragons.
His work is definitely not a one size fits all morality tale. Dwarven and human systems are intentionally contrasted for effect. Dismiss those differences as superficial and you dismiss points the author was making before you even examine them.
As an example, contrast Haley's childhood with Hilgya's. Was Haley's background more or less Good than Hilgya's? Who had greater cause to rebel? How about Roy? His childhood was shown to be less than ideal as well. Neither Roy nor Haley rejected their societies because they got a crappy deal. They accepted the luck of the draw and made the best of it. Hilgya, on the other hand, bailed on her responsibilities and blamed everyone and everything except herself even as she maneuvers to position herself in the afterlife of the culture she supposedly rejected.
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2018-02-21, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
True, but I think that's irrelevant.
What is relevant is what the Giant's said about his decision for the comic "to portray all of its sentient creatures in highly personified, anthropomorphic...ways":
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2018-02-21, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Because we have comic proof that dwarven honor is a cultural construct, the result of Thor telling the dwarves how to avoid Hel. The evidence-free supposition of a biological basis on top of that is wholly superfluous. The only reason to suppose such a thing exists is because it might help your argument (and I'm not even convinced it does).
Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-02-21 at 04:31 PM.
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2018-02-21, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Culture isn't ethics. The Dwarves think, act and feel as humans do. They enjoy the same things (music, sex, family, friendship, etc).
They have different customs and a different outlook sure but it is still a human one.
Because to write a truly alien species a writer would have not to think like a human, which makes as much sense as accusing a dwarf of not acting dwarfy.
If that was true we wouldn't have several characters pointing out how crappy the dwarves' deal is.
1) Fallacy of Relative Privation.
2a) Haley left Greysky City without any intention of coming back. Doesn't that make her a terrible member of society by your logic.
2b) Roy's problems were with his father not his society. You are comparing apples with bananas.
3) Again, I am not claiming that Hilgya took the best approach to solve her problem (she tried to kill someone for crying out loud!) just that she is right that there was a problem and liking her escape (not exactly what I mean ut best translation I can find) to the act ofa neurotic teenager isn't fair.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-02-21 at 04:26 PM.
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2018-02-21, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
IMO Hilgya was oppressed, but that doesn't mean she was in the right to try and kill her husband. She was someone who did not like the strictness of dwarven society and ultimately acquiesced after being threatened with violence. Her husband as far as we can see was a passive and largely insipid participant in her oppression. In the brief moments that we see him her husband was overall a caring person who was oblivious to Hilgya's actual opinions. Killing him was unnecessary for her to escape from the oppressive situation, and he was not the the person who threatened her with violence. Despite this she tried to kill her almost innocent husband disregarding his own rights as a dwarven being because she wanted to attack the system she was a part of. If she had attempted to murder the clan elders or other authority figures who were associated with her marriage it would be a different conversation. But she didn't.
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2018-02-21, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
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2018-02-21, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
As the comic is specifically set up as a comment on current society (or to explore what it can tell us about human society ?? I forgot) so that it is not petty escapeism - this is clearly intended otherwise.
PLUS dwarfs are anthropomorphised in a way that the comparison to (forms of) human society is clearly wanted
Additionally they quite clearly feel and hope and dream and suffer as a direct consequence of their societal norms for good or for ill.
If something is overlooked then it is the fact that life needs to hold obstacles and resistances to you and your dreams because otherwise you wouldnt be able to grow
So I do not think that it is to horrible that Hilgya had to find her place and go her own path.
Horrible would have been if there wouldnt have been a way for her to find her own place in life
(plus marriage at gunpoint is wrong - just for the record)
schLast edited by schmunzel; 2018-02-21 at 04:55 PM.
Do NOT argue with idiots - they drag you on their level and beat you with experience
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2018-02-21, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Identical, no. Comparable yes.
To write about experience you have not lived you need use two things:
1) Accounts of people who did and/or
2) Picturing yourself going through these experiences.
When it comes to telling the life of a non-human lifeform, you can't do the former and the more you use the latter the more human-like your character will be.
An extremly talented author may write what it is like to be a chimpanzee or a gorilla.
A good author can write about dwarves, elves and klingon but they will only come as "short humans who like metal", "long lived humans who like trees" and "weird-foreheaded humans who like war".
A mediocre author can write about dwarves, elves and klingon but they will only come as "short stereotypical Scandinavians", "pointy-eared stereotypical hippies" and "weird-foreheaded stereotypical barbarians*"
Take Bernard Werber, The Ants, despite his best efforts to portray a completely alien society, and his occasionnal rambling against people who try to link ant societal culture with human political ideologies, his ant characters come off as terribly human.
*I don't know how fair that comparison is relative to what klingon culture is like since the only Star Trek material I have consumed are the two first film of Abrams' reboot.
And before anyone tells me "you should totally watch it it's great!". I know. But I'm on a Doctor Who marathon so,I'm booked for the foreseeable future, sorry.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-02-21 at 05:00 PM.
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2018-02-21, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
I want to note that while there is less than zero evidence of dwarven culture or morality being based on dwarven biology, there's no reason one couldn't tell a story with trenchant social commentary about such a race. This is so commonplace in science fiction as to be mundane.
Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-02-21 at 04:56 PM.
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2018-02-21, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Indeed. "Dwarven biology may be critically different from human" is trivial. "Dwarven biology is different in exactly the ways necessary to support brian 333's case, evidence being: brian 333 said so" is a much harder sell.
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2018-02-21, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
We don't know that a crossbow isn't a normal feature at dwarven weddings, of which we have seen exactly one. It may represent divine vengeance upon oathbreakers or some such, and not a threat to any party to the marriage.
Hilgya left and returned, pregnant. If some oppressive They were prepared to kill her to force her to wed, why have They not killed her for leaving and getting pregnant by another man? Or at a minimum, forced her back into Dave's arms?
I'm going to argue that we should not assume Hilgya was under lethal threat at her wedding given that no lethal vengeance was taken for abandoning the marriage. Usually in places where you kill people who don't obey, you kill them if they stop obeying.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
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2018-02-21, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
I have repeatedly and emphatically not done this. Neither the handwave nor the assumption.
What I have done is point out that Hilgya could have left the oppressive culture at any time. All indications are that she chose to stay, and that she would have if her murder attempts had proved successful. This does not appear to be a case of being oppressed, but of being selfish. She wanted the benefits of dwarven society without the responsibilities.
This is reinforced by her discussion with Elan. If the culture is inherently oppressive, why does she desire an afterlife in Dwarf Heaven instead of taking her cause to the Southern or Western gods? Instead, she is cheating her way in, and not only to regular Dwarf Heaven, but to the section reserved for the elites, the paragons of Dwarf Culture. This desire to remain a part of dwarven culture indicates that either it's not as oppressive as she claims, or that she wishes to be an oppressor. The thing she does not want is to reform Dwarven society to make it better for everyone. In other words, she doesn't have a desire to do anything but replace the guy holding the crossbow.
Another point I never made but which is attributed to me is the idea that society should not change. Change is an essential ingredient in life. If Hilgya were on a crusade to reform her culture, end forced marriage, and instill the universal right for young adults to choose any or no mate as she wishes, I'd be cheering her on. But she is doing none of this.
As per the current comic, the only thing Hilgya wishes to change is the consequences of her actions. She wants a get out of jail free card. That is, from my PoV, a deplorable motive.
I like the Hilgya character for many reasons, but I'm not deluding myself. She would be a horrible friend because she blames everyone else for her problems, while she creates the circumstances of her problems. Simply look at how she feels about Durkon now, then go back and re-read the Hilgya arc in the Dungeon of Dorukon. She instigated the 'encounter' knowing exactly what Durkon was. When there were repercussions for her dalliance, did she accept the responsibility?
Nope.
She blamed Durkon.
Just like she blamed her culture when she discovered she couldn't have her cake and eat it too.
And watch her blame Loki when her get out of jail free card doesn't work.
Because it's everyone's fault except hers.
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2018-02-21, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, I'm officially sick of this, now. Couldn't you all just make a thread devoted to long, rambling, rants about Hilgya and leave these threads to discussions of the latest comic, rather than rehashing the same boring argument for the dozenth time?
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2018-02-21, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
It's a deliberate shotgun wedding reference, though.
Something about Hilgya being a mid-to-high-level spellcaster may influence how such an attempt would end up.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2018-02-21, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Conservation of detail, the specifics of dwarven wedding ceremony are irrelevant to the joke/backstory her being forced isn't.
I'm gonna guess "high-level Cleric". Who's Dave?
1) that's hard to do when they are running away.
2) Her family wed her to Ivan. Using the real world as an analogy for a moment, it ispossible that the "responsability" of bringing her back into the fold falls on Ivan and/or his family who may not care at all. I mean Ivan really don't seem like the kind to go on a roaring rampage of revenge.
Again the fact that she could leave, does not invalidate the statement that their wasa problem. Many people choose to remain in objectively wrong situation for fear of making it worse, for example.
She wants to go to her chosen god's residence in the afterlife and that somehow means she wishes to reintegrate Dwarven society? Loki has human and hlfling followers. In fact she emphatically don't want to go where most Dwarves are going.
You keep stating that Hilgya's refusal to abide by her native culture accepted behaviour means that she acts like a spoiled child and refuse to acknowledge the possiblity of dwarf culture needing improvement.
But wouldn't that also be "refusing her responsabilities"? I don't think I understand your position.
Considering she was handed a get to jail free card, I hardly can blame her.
Oh, yes, she has serious issues about accepting blame. However her behaviour in this strip shows that it is not as bad as what the precedent strips made us fear.Forum Wisdom
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2018-02-21, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
My position is simple: if all she did was flee a bad situation, I'd cheer her for her courage. She didn't do that. Instead she attempted to stay in the bad situation through the murder of her husband. I'd equally cheer her if reform was her goal, but she has done nothing to help others except concoct a dubious scheme which endangers the afterlife of others for her personal benefit.
I never said or implied dwarven culture was perfect. I did say it was designed for the benefit of the majority of dwarves. Its a case of being beneficial to the most dwarves, not of being perfect for all dwarves.
Hilgya proved that she could leave. If that's all she did I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss her. I dismiss her because she tried to murder her husband first, implying that had her attempt succeeded she would have remained in dwarf society comfortable in the benefits of her position and unhindered by the expectations of that society.
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2018-02-21, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
For a simple position, it keeps moving around to dodge the straightforward counterarguments.
And the unwarranted assumptions continue with your description of Hilgya's plan, which most would describe as an attempt to reform society according to her views. From her POV, she's already home free, so attempting to convert other dwarves to this view doesn't have any obvious personal benefits for her, yet that's the only thing you seem able to focus on. And from her POV, she's not threatening other dwarves' afterlives, she's providing another path to salvation. For someone who urges us to have tolerance for social mores other than our own, you are remarkably uncharitable towards ethics that differ from yours.
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2018-02-21, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
I'm going to suggest that all of dwarven society collectively can take down one cleric, regardless of level. Also, she was approximately Durkon's level when he sent her away; we don't know how or if she gained more levels. At that time Durkon was low teens, IIRC. A 12th level cleric is not exactly an unstoppable threat.
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2018-02-21, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Or you know, that she was EVIL, and wanted to murder the lout on her way out kind of thing.
Apparently they like magic-poison levels of crabapple cobbler. :p
And yet doesn't she say in the bottom leftmost panel that she IS in fact trying to convince all the dwarves to abandon traditional Dwarven honor but also stay free of Hel?
Sounds like you need to get cheering.
Only if they have their own arbitrarily high level clerics or wizards. An Epic Cleric could probably take on whole societies and win, esp if she planned for it."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2018-02-21, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
So, folks, miss me yet?
Regarding the people here relativizing the wrong done to Hilgya: the only thing that the fact that she "could leave" achieved was changing her penalty for daring not to want to stay with that moron from death to exile (at least until she became, you know, a fifteenth level cleric that could wasily kill the people that attacked her over this). She was, clearly, forced to marry, at, clearly, crossbow point. It was, clearly, a wrong committed against her, one for which she, clearly, deserves redress.
If we are to give a pass to that festering cancer of a society that the dwarven one has become, in which people's happiness counts for nothing, why not give one to Hilgya? Heck, to Redcloak? If you wanna go for moral or cultural relativism, Brian, at least have the decency of applying it even in cases you dislike, such as when that uppity woman dares to offer other dwarves other ways around their precious little system, a system that has tried to oppress her (for which you've been arguing nonstop for us to give it a pass).
You can't have it both ways. It can't be "Oh, ho-hum, who is anyone here to criticize their culture?" at the same time as "How dare that uppity woman want out of it and spread ways out of it?". Unless you're ready to admit that you actually see positive or neutral moral value in forced marriages and negative moral value in rebelling against the sick, perverted, demented, repulsive, evil society that enforces it. Then, we'll be having another discussion altogether, one, I fear, more honest than the one we've been having so far.
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2018-02-21, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Speaking as someone who has a strong (and apparently controversial) anti-forced-marriage stance, who's argued about this in other threads before - God, please. We're not even asking you to stop arguing this, just to please make a dedicated thread and use that instead.
As for this comic itself: the more I reread it, the more this strip has done to sell me on Hilgya as a character. I trusted the Giant to develop her into a more 3d character, as I said above, but there's a huge difference between trusting in something intellectually and actually seeing it take shape. I think Hilgya's actually something we've yet to really see in the comic as well - an Evil character whose characterization is primarily defined by her Ethical axis. For (fairly understandable) reasons, the Moral axis tends to take precedent over the Ethical axis when it comes to Good and Evil characters. Redcloak is Lawful, but that's more just a detail of the way he behaves and implements things, and his arc is more about the Evil things he does in the name of the greater good. Belkar and Xykon are Chaotic, but their characterization is more about doing Evil for the lulz, and they're Chaotic because they don't feel like doing it in a particularly orderly way. Where we see characters more about Chaos or Law, they've tended to be Neutral morally in order to avoid distracting from the point.
I guess an argument might be made that Tarquin was as much about being Lawful as about being Evil, but he's more about the philosophy of storytelling + tropes than the philosophy of Law. I strongly suspect that Hilgya is still Evil, because she was definitely (per the Giant) Evil in her first appearance, and doesn't seem to have changed much since (she's still got the same... creative judgement of character, for one thing), but she's getting along great with the other Chaotics (chatting with Elan, not minding Haley's mistrust, apologizing for getting him stabbed by Nale, etc.), identifies more with Chaos (Anarchic water, etc.), and so on. I can't think of any other corner alignment characters in the comic like that - can anyone else?
Come on, someone's gotta want to discuss anything else about the comic, right?Last edited by DaggerPen; 2018-02-21 at 07:00 PM.
I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2018-02-21, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-21, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Hrm, fair point about Miko (though she did Fall in large part for that sort of thing.) Durkon.... hrmmmmmm. I'm going back and forth on this. I do feel like Durkon's more of an Actively Good character than a Passively Good character, while Hilgya is more of a Passively Evil character, but he is extremely Lawful, and even his ideas about Goodness seem to be largely wrapped up in duty and honor. Plus, if Hilgya is a foil to him, it makes sense that he'd be in the same boat, so to speak.
I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
Can't find the strip you're looking for? Head on over to OOTS Strip Summaries!
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2018-02-21, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
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2018-02-21, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
She's a high-level Cleric of a trickster god. I feel safe assuming she didn't come in by the front door.
I confess morbid curiosity at the thought of you arguing against Brian333
Spoiler: I must admit that it probably warrant its own thread though
Let's not swing that pendulum too far, okay?
Strongly seconded.
Very interesting analysis. Aren't Lawful supposed to follow their own code? Just equate Tarquin's code with "yesteryear story structure and tropes" and you're all set.
I'd also like to nominate Shojo and Hinjo as people who are defined as much by how Lawful/Chaotic they are as by their Goodness.
What if Vaarsuvius cast Familicide on Miko?
#BLAF#
Did I just get smacked on the head across the internet ?!Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-02-21 at 07:51 PM.
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2018-02-21, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
I spent quite a while thinking Durkon was supposed to be Lawful Neutral, for my part.
Suggesting that Hinjo is not supposed to be more Good than Lawful, on the other hand, mystifies me. And Shojo acts "chaotic" to the extent that "chaotic" equals "deceitful and manipulative"; he's sure not interested in promoting freedom for anyone else.Last edited by Kish; 2018-02-21 at 07:26 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-02-21, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-21, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
Fair point, but Hilgya strikes me more as the type who, when given a choice, is willing to do Evil in the service of Chaos, and could otherwise go through life easily without doing Evil, as in contrast to Xykon and Belkar, who actively enjoy doing Evil things.
I'm trying to figure out a way to articulate this nuance... like, it's not that I think she's only barely Evil, or that she's only done Evil because there was no other way to serve Chaos, but like... she's Devoted Chaos, Casual Evil?
Huh, go figure! Can I ask why?I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2018-02-21, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread
I dunno, to me every times he does something good he makes sure it's in the confine of the Law/his duty, and every time he does something because it's the law/his duty he makes sure it's good, too.
That's still chaotic, no?
I'll get you next time, MunchKING !
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2018-02-21, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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