Support Temporary HP Build Advice

[tamajoshi]

My goal in my current campaign has been to make a pure support class while working around the temporary health mechanic. I'm looking for some advice on a few things, so any suggestions I would greatly appreciate. I've been playing this character for a while now but I'm open to the conversation as if you could rebuild her from the ground up spell/feat-wise. Here's her current stats:

Level 12

(12 Glamour Bard / 1 Life Cleric)
12 str | 14 con | 20 dex | 13 int | 20 cha

feats: Inspiring Leader, Alert

As a less familiar player, I don't want to feel like I'm just plain missing out on a spell or combo. My current play-pattern is focused around playing with increasing maximum HP, renewing temporary HP, healing, and dice manipulation. Here's an example:

Pre-battle: Inspiring Leader is used, giving the party 18 temporary health.

Initial Rounds: With my alert feat and a ring that gives me advantage on initiative rolls, I almost always move first. I start by casting longstrider as a 3rd level spell to give half the party 10ft more movement. My next turn I will cast Aid as a 6th level spell, giving 25hp to half the party. At this point they have 42 extra HP above their normal amounts. Next round I will cast Aid as a 5th level spell on the rest of the party for a similar effect.

Later Rounds: I will eventually start bringing in a concentration spell like Healing Spirit, Greater Invisibility on our Sorlock, or Bless on the entire party. I will either heal or debuff with vicious mockery or guiding bolt at this point. Finally, I will regularly use Mantle of Inspiration from Glamour Bard to refresh 11 temporary HP on allies as damage begins to come out, which I can do up to 5 times per battle if I don't hand out inspiration.

Are there any strategies or spells you can think of that would go well with this Temporary HP, Healer, Buffer thing I have going on? Also regarding my action economy I currently don't really use reaction if there's anything you can think of I could use with that. I just want to make her as annoying as possible for the enemies to even break through to my allies defenses before doing 'real' damage. I love the interaction with Aid / Temporary HP and would love to capitalize on it as much as I can in different ways.

Other party members if it helps: Hunter Ranger, Tempest Cleric, Assassin Rogue, Sorcerer/Warlock


Thanks in advance!

[BobZan]

Hint: Aid has 8 hour duration. Normally that's an adventure day. Use it before going in danger. So you'll always keep your party with +Max HP +Temp. If you are ambushed, np in casting Aid.

Otherwise, since you've already done a great pre-buff, you could use some CC on early rounds before damage starts. You can keep refreshing Mantle of Inspiration as a bonus and doing some battlefield control.

IDK if upcast longstrider is a good round at that level. It wouldn't impact much on most fights. IMO it's a bad combat spell for most fight (I might be wrong).

Here we already saved 2 "bad" rounds. An upcast Hold Person or Hold Monster can offer severe battlefield advantage to your side. Polymorph that BBEG into a Squirrel is also great. Greater Invisibility on a party member aswell. Heat Metal on that armored foe. All concentration, but used in different moments.

Also, Aura of Vitality as Bardic Magical Secret is great. Even better with Life Cleric dip.

[Talamare]

Hint: Aid has 8 hour duration. Normally that's an adventure day. Use it before going in danger. So you'll always keep your party with +Max HP +Temp.

I personally use AID as a Ranged AoE Revive

[strangebloke]

I agree with most of what Bob says, although I think in suggesting to use control spells he's kind of missing the point of your character.

That said, Polymorph is a great buff you should look into. It grants an extra pool of HP, so it's even on-theme for your character.

Make sure you don't have a fiend warlock in your party, since they tend to generate lots of thp.

[Throne12]

I personally use AID as a Ranged AoE Revive

Op isn't that type of support. Also if you have to use Aid. In the manner you are in a really bad spot.

To the OP. I would pick up healer feat. Then look at getting the spells death ward, warding bond, Sanctuary. But that's just me.

[ThatDrowPlayer]

Remember that most effects don't stack with themselves. If you're throwing around a lot of buffs, they have to be from a different source to stack. For example, you can't stack bless with bless the next round, but a ranger who has +2 to archery attacks can still gain the bonus to hit from the magic weapon spell.

You also can't stack temporary hit points. You take whatever the highest amount is, so casting aid as a 6th level spell will supersede casting it as a 5th level spell, so that would waste a slot.

A great use for your Reaction would be the Arcane Ward from Abjuration Wizards. You reach a certain level (6th or 7th, if I remember), and you can use it to lessen damage to allies. You'd have to invest in wizard levels, though, but I think it would fit in nicely with your idea.

"Pro" move: Get the mage armor invocation from the Warlock to recharge the ward at will. Lot of dipping, but it maximizes your buffing.

Also, consider picking up the Lucky feat. You get 3 d20s you can use to increase to-hit rolls, but you can also use them to change an enemy's attack roll against you.

These are just ideas, so you can pick and choose as you like.

[Talamare]

Op isn't that type of support. Also if you have to use Aid. In the manner you are in a really bad spot.

To the OP. I would pick up healer feat. Then look at getting the spells death ward, warding bond, Sanctuary. But that's just me.

Exactly, in a bad spot and needs an emergency group revive

Maybe a Dragon just used Breath and knocked up multiple people.
Warding Bond is bad
Sanctuary only targets a single person, and locks them out of being able to deal damage, and doesn't work on AoE effects that would cause multiple KOs
Death Ward is fine on yourself, in the situation Aid would revive multiple people (aka again, Dragon Breath) Death Ward would keep you from dropping so you're capable of doing so.
Death Ward is kinda of pointless and expensive to randomly spam around.

If you randomly cast Aid at the start of the day, you lose the ability to do so when you need it
Not to mention if you randomly cast Aid at the start of the day, you might find that you didn't even need it. Thus wasted a spell.


Speaking on the subject of Aid
You said you open up with a 6th level Aid, then cast a 5th level Aid at later in the combat.

Doesn't work!

Combining Magical Effects, the most powerful one negates the weaker one.
Thus if you did 5th into 6th, cool.
Doing 6th into 5th, does nothing.

[Throne12]

Exactly, in a bad spot and needs an emergency group revive

Maybe a Dragon just used Breath and knocked up multiple people.
Warding Bond is bad
Sanctuary only targets a single person, and locks them out of being able to deal damage, and doesn't work on AoE effects that would cause multiple KOs
Death Ward is fine on yourself, in the situation Aid would revive multiple people (aka again, Dragon Breath) Death Ward would keep you from dropping so you're capable of doing so.
Death Ward is kinda of pointless and expensive to randomly spam around.

If you randomly cast Aid at the start of the day, you lose the ability to do so when you need it
Not to mention if you randomly cast Aid at the start of the day, you might find that you didn't even need it. Thus wasted a spell.


Speaking on the subject of Aid
You said you open up with a 6th level Aid, then cast a 5th level Aid at later in the combat.

Doesn't work!

Combining Magical Effects, the most powerful one negates the weaker one.
Thus if you did 5th into 6th, cool.
Doing 6th into 5th, does nothing.

Warding bond is not bad. I have used it a lot and it has help my party everytime. It give +1 to AC and saves also give resis to damage. Yes you get hurt but if you have temp hp your temp hp is taking the hit not your hp.

[Crgaston]

As others have said, the Aid castings don’t stack and can by used before combat.

You didn’t mention Dissonant Whispers....
Once you have your concentration spell up, Dissonant Whispers is great to use on enemies who are fighting a party member with a good opportunity attack, or to force them off squishies.

[jollydm]

My next turn I will cast Aid as a 6th level spell, giving 25hp to half the party. At this point they have 42 extra HP above their normal amounts. Next round I will cast Aid as a 5th level spell on the rest of the party for a similar effect.

Just wanted to point this out, as there's a couple replies touching on this: I think what OP meant was cast 6th level Aid on a few of their party members, then 5th level Aid on the other party members that did not already get Aid cast on them. I'm guessing their party is too large to cover everyone with a single cast of Aid.

[Citan]

My goal in my current campaign has been to make a pure support class while working around the temporary health mechanic. I'm looking for some advice on a few things, so any suggestions I would greatly appreciate. I've been playing this character for a while now but I'm open to the conversation as if you could rebuild her from the ground up spell/feat-wise. Here's her current stats:

Level 12

(12 Glamour Bard / 1 Life Cleric)
12 str | 14 con | 20 dex | 13 int | 20 cha

feats: Inspiring Leader, Alert

As a less familiar player, I don't want to feel like I'm just plain missing out on a spell or combo. My current play-pattern is focused around playing with increasing maximum HP, renewing temporary HP, healing, and dice manipulation. Here's an example:

Pre-battle: Inspiring Leader is used, giving the party 18 temporary health.

Initial Rounds: With my alert feat and a ring that gives me advantage on initiative rolls, I almost always move first. I start by casting longstrider as a 3rd level spell to give half the party 10ft more movement. My next turn I will cast Aid as a 6th level spell, giving 25hp to half the party. At this point they have 42 extra HP above their normal amounts. Next round I will cast Aid as a 5th level spell on the rest of the party for a similar effect.

Later Rounds: I will eventually start bringing in a concentration spell like Healing Spirit, Greater Invisibility on our Sorlock, or Bless on the entire party. I will either heal or debuff with vicious mockery or guiding bolt at this point. Finally, I will regularly use Mantle of Inspiration from Glamour Bard to refresh 11 temporary HP on allies as damage begins to come out, which I can do up to 5 times per battle if I don't hand out inspiration.

Are there any strategies or spells you can think of that would go well with this Temporary HP, Healer, Buffer thing I have going on? Also regarding my action economy I currently don't really use reaction if there's anything you can think of I could use with that. I just want to make her as annoying as possible for the enemies to even break through to my allies defenses before doing 'real' damage. I love the interaction with Aid / Temporary HP and would love to capitalize on it as much as I can in different ways.

Other party members if it helps: Hunter Ranger, Tempest Cleric, Assassin Rogue, Sorcerer/Warlock


Thanks in advance!

Hi ;)
Honestly? Your build is very good and functional, but if you really wanted to push one particular aspect you're one or two levels under what you could do. But maybe it's simply because you made the character before Xanathar's was published (in fact, it's most probably the reason considering your character's current level. ;)).

The only thing you missed was Sorcerer: Extended metamagic works wonder with many great spells.

For example, as far as HP buff went, nobody would beat a "fullcaster with Sorcerer 3 dip" to upcast Aid.

Xanathar's pushed it further.

For example, if you wanted to maximize Temporary HP, then nothing can beat now (AFAIRemember, AFB) a simple Shepherd Druid with Inspiring Leader that can hand out "level+stat" 2 times per short rest.

More generally, a Divine Sorcerer with a single level of Life Cleric can now dish out an impressive amount of "HP distribution". Mix this with either Druid 1 / Shepherd Druid 3 (Goodberry, Healing Spirit, Lesser Restoration) or Lore Bard 6 (Magic Secrets, and usual Bard perks) and you get all tools in one package:
Healing Words, Lesser Restoration, Warding Bond (yeah, it does count into your build: after all it does make your THP last much longer), Healing Spirit, Beacon of Hope but also every usual Sorcerer spells. ;)

A Dream Druid could also greatly benefit from Beacon of Hope spell for emergency restoration. Between its archetype feature and a Healer feat, he could single-handedly ensure a 4-man party survival.

As far as "plain restoration HP goes", nobody beats Life Cleric though: just its Channel Divinity, although often overlooked, can save your whole party several times in a single day.
You can of course approach (or possibly beat) him at some levels, but it requires complex multiclass to do so.

You should look into the search tool of this forum though: there have been a thread about "healing optimization" in which all possibilities have been detailed. It's not that old, probably a few months ago. :) You will probably find there everything you need to improve your character (or build another) in a way that fits your own style. ;)

[JackPhoenix]

Pre-battle: Inspiring Leader is used, giving the party 18 temporary health.

Initial Rounds: With my alert feat and a ring that gives me advantage on initiative rolls, I almost always move first. I start by casting longstrider as a 3rd level spell to give half the party 10ft more movement. My next turn I will cast Aid as a 6th level spell, giving 25hp to half the party. At this point they have 42 extra HP above their normal amounts. Next round I will cast Aid as a 5th level spell on the rest of the party for a similar effect.

As noticed, Temp HP doesn't stack. If you cast Aid to get 25 THP, you overwrite the 18 THP from Inspiring Leader. The characters would have 25 THP, not 42.

[PeteNutButter]

As noticed, Temp HP doesn't stack. If you cast Aid to get 25 THP, you overwrite the 18 THP from Inspiring Leader. The characters would have 25 THP, not 42.

Aid does not grant THP.

[Talamare]

As noticed, Temp HP doesn't stack. If you cast Aid to get 25 THP, you overwrite the 18 THP from Inspiring Leader. The characters would have 25 THP, not 42.

Aid doesn't stack with itself when you're going down in levels.

If you cast a 5th Level Aid on Target A, then any attempts to cast a weaker form on Target A is automatically negated.
You cast the spell and literally nothing happens.

On the other hand, if you cast a 2nd Level Aid on Target A, then cast a 3rd Level Aid; it works just fine.
The target will 'heal' for 10 hp with the 1st cast, and heal for 15 hp with the 2nd cast.

This is why you should use your biggest Aid at the start of the day.

Aid is powerful healing combined with ranged; combined with multitarget.

That is an extremely rare and expensive combination normally.

[tamajoshi]

Thanks for the feedback! I really liked everything you guys had. I'll definitely look into some of those other multiclassing options and I can't believe I missed the Dissonant Whispers spell. I've noticed now that I have spells up to level 6, I have this habit if upcasting almost everything and leaving a battle with all of my level 1 and 2 spell slots so I'll have to look into some other spells I can use that still hold their weight somewhat even in later levels.

Thanks again for the feedback everyone. Bard's magical secrets is a little spooky because it opens up such a can of worms on potential options. If anyone has any other suggestions I'd love to hear them!

[Crgaston]

Have you had a chance to play with Dissonant Whispers yet?

You mentioned your reactions being underutilized... here’s a nifty guide by Odigity


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...7-A-Mini-Guide


Standouts for you might include a level of Fighter for the Protection fighting style which would let you use a shield to impose disadvantage to an attack on an adjacent ally, or the Defensive Duelist feat to add your proficiency bonus to your AC.

[BW022]

Pre-battle: Inspiring Leader is used, giving the party 18 temporary health.

Initial Rounds: With my alert feat and a ring that gives me advantage on initiative rolls, I almost always move first. I start by casting longstrider as a 3rd level spell to give half the party 10ft more movement. My next turn I will cast Aid as a 6th level spell, giving 25hp to half the party. At this point they have 42 extra HP above their normal amounts. Next round I will cast Aid as a 5th level spell on the rest of the party for a similar effect.
...

Concepts are fine, but I think you need to be a bit more realistic of what your party is likely to face at 12th-level.

With a 10 minute pre-buff (assuming you knew that combat was coming) and over three rounds, you've managed to increase everyone's movement by 10' and give five characters 43 temporary hit points, while using up a good portion of your high level spells.

Meanwhile, fighting say
* Four cloud giants (CR 10 each) the party would have taken around 180hp of damage (assuming a 50% with rock, 30hp/hit, 4 creatures, 3 rounds)
* Two remorhaz (CR 11 each) the party would have taken around 150hp of damage (assuming a 50% hit, 50hp/hit, 2 creatures, 3 rounds), plus possible swallowing.
* Archmage (CR 12), the party would have taken two lightning bolts and cone of cold, probably more with time stop.

At those CRs, creatures can dish out damage far quickly than you can you can put up temporary hit point. 50hp hit points at those levels won't even mean a round of difference if creatures start focusing their attacks. It is far better using buffing abilities which simply prevent you from being hit -- a fog cloud to keep the giants from hitting you while you close, greater invisibility on the tempest cleric blocking the remorhaz, or counter spelling the archmage.

Temporary hit points are nice if you can pre-buff with them. However, by mid-levels, they simply don't keep up with the damage output which most opponents can output. In almost all cases, once initiative starts, your best option is to always either to prevent creatures from attacking you, decrease the change they hit, or help damage the creatures to cause them to drop sooner -- preventing damage by having them dead quicker.

If you have some pre-buffs, great. Makes for a good character concept and most players will like it. However, do realize that this tactic isn't practical against most combats you can expect at those levels.

[Talamare]

Concepts are fine, but I think you need to be a bit more realistic of what your party is likely to face at 12th-level.

With a 10 minute pre-buff (assuming you knew that combat was coming) and over three rounds, you've managed to increase everyone's movement by 10' and give five characters 43 temporary hit points, while using up a good portion of your high level spells.

Meanwhile, fighting say
* Four cloud giants (CR 10 each) the party would have taken around 180hp of damage (assuming a 50% with rock, 30hp/hit, 4 creatures, 3 rounds)
* Two remorhaz (CR 11 each) the party would have taken around 150hp of damage (assuming a 50% hit, 50hp/hit, 2 creatures, 3 rounds), plus possible swallowing.
* Archmage (CR 12), the party would have taken two lightning bolts and cone of cold, probably more with time stop.

At those CRs, creatures can dish out damage far quickly than you can you can put up temporary hit point. 50hp hit points at those levels won't even mean a round of difference if creatures start focusing their attacks. It is far better using buffing abilities which simply prevent you from being hit -- a fog cloud to keep the giants from hitting you while you close, greater invisibility on the tempest cleric blocking the remorhaz, or counter spelling the archmage.

Temporary hit points are nice if you can pre-buff with them. However, by mid-levels, they simply don't keep up with the damage output which most opponents can output. In almost all cases, once initiative starts, your best option is to always either to prevent creatures from attacking you, decrease the change they hit, or help damage the creatures to cause them to drop sooner -- preventing damage by having them dead quicker.

If you have some pre-buffs, great. Makes for a good character concept and most players will like it. However, do realize that this tactic isn't practical against most combats you can expect at those levels.

She said she was level 12
4 Cloud Giants is a Deadly Encounter

and Time Stop doesn't really increase your damage, it's meant for buffing.
Being hit with a Lightning Bolt/Cone of Cold then having the THP refreshed for the next one is a pretty amazing support
The alternative is that you would basically take it all to the face...

Considering that the expected HP for an average character is about... 6-9x Level, so lets say 7.5x Level... Then we are talking about PCs with 90 HP.
Granting them 43 HP is basically providing them an additional 50% more HP. Which is pretty significant.

Note, I don't disagree with the importance of using Control. I'm just saying, there is nothing wrong with defensive buffing either...

[Crgaston]

Concepts are fine, but I think you need to be a bit more realistic of what your party is likely to face at 12th-level.

With a 10 minute pre-buff (assuming you knew that combat was coming) and over three rounds, you've managed to increase everyone's movement by 10' and give five characters 43 temporary hit points, while using up a good portion of your high level spells.

Meanwhile, fighting say
* Four cloud giants (CR 10 each) the party would have taken around 180hp of damage (assuming a 50% with rock, 30hp/hit, 4 creatures, 3 rounds)
* Two remorhaz (CR 11 each) the party would have taken around 150hp of damage (assuming a 50% hit, 50hp/hit, 2 creatures, 3 rounds), plus possible swallowing.
* Archmage (CR 12), the party would have taken two lightning bolts and cone of cold, probably more with time stop.

At those CRs, creatures can dish out damage far quickly than you can you can put up temporary hit point. 50hp hit points at those levels won't even mean a round of difference if creatures start focusing their attacks. It is far better using buffing abilities which simply prevent you from being hit -- a fog cloud to keep the giants from hitting you while you close, greater invisibility on the tempest cleric blocking the remorhaz, or counter spelling the archmage.

Temporary hit points are nice if you can pre-buff with them. However, by mid-levels, they simply don't keep up with the damage output which most opponents can output. In almost all cases, once initiative starts, your best option is to always either to prevent creatures from attacking you, decrease the change they hit, or help damage the creatures to cause them to drop sooner -- preventing damage by having them dead quicker.

If you have some pre-buffs, great. Makes for a good character concept and most players will like it. However, do realize that this tactic isn't practical against most combats you can expect at those levels.

Umm, I don’t follow your logic here, entirely.

The inspiring leader temp hp last until they are depleted or you take a long rest. So just add 10 minutes to every rest and they’re there. No need to “know combat is coming.” And even Aid is an 8 hour, no concentration buff, so that could easily be cast pre-combat.

40 extra HP x 5 characters = 200 hp. Your examples have the enemies dealing less than that over 3 rounds, so they haven’t even gotten into the party’s unbuffed total yet.

You suggested that preventing a hit or decreasing the chance of a hit would be a better strategy, while I’d argue that preventing/decreasing the enemy from affecting your normal HP pool is functionally identical to that.

Meanwhile, the Hunter, Assassin and Sorlock are presumably dealing some reasonable damage to the enemies. Which fits with your third suggestion of making the enemies drop faster.

It’s just a different way of skinning the same cat that fits with a particular concept.