Find Greater Steed

[jollydm]

So, there was some discussion in my group about the spell "Find Greater Steed" from Xanathar's that made me curious to get some other opinions. The spell states that you can "summon a spirit that assumes the form of a loyal majestic mount...the spirit takes on a form you choose: a griffon, a pegasus, a peryton, a dire wolf, a rhinoceros, or a saber-toothed tiger."

The question was, does the caster know what form the spirit can take? How exact is that knowledge? Do they know "when I cast this spell, I can summon a griffon, a pegasus, etc."? Or does the caster just know that when they cast the spell, they summon a spirit that will take the general shape of a winged, quadrupedal creature of a suitable form for riding?

This mostly came about as a result of discussing how this spell interacts with a homebrew world where may there's no such thing as a pegasus or a griffon (or specifically to our homebrew world, a rhinoceros). Does that mean the caster doesn't have those options when casting the spell? Or since it is a spirit in the form of a creature, am I summoning something that resembles a pegasus or a griffon, but the caster would not know to call it by that name?

On a more fundamental level, I feel this discussion relates to what a character knows about the spells they can cast. The text of the spell in the Player's Handbook: I know what the spell says, but how much of that information does the character know? Does a character know everything in the text of the spell?

[strangebloke]

Presumably part of the spell casting process is the spirit showing the various forms to the paladin.

You could pick a rhino and be a weirdo, but TBH it's a little weird to pick a form that completely alien to you.

[jollydm]

Presumably part of the spell casting process is the spirit showing the various forms to the paladin.

You could pick a rhino and be a weirdo, but TBH it's a little weird to pick a form that completely alien to you.

I hadn't considered the spirit itself might impart the knowledge. The spell seems to imply the spirit is smart enough to do so.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It's one of those things we don't question, for sanity's sake. Like how in the world do you know how all of your spells function as a cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, or sorcerer? You never studied them, you just suddenly had them one day.

At least in the cleric and paladin's case they had to pray for it, but there's certainly no mechanic where you pray for something and get either nothing, because it wasn't possible to grant, or something entirely different. And how would they know what they got, in any case?

Did I mention Magic Initiate?

It's easier to just say "If you have magic, you understand it". Perhaps it's part of the weird nature of magic, which by definition follows no mundane laws. If you can cast fireball, you're perfectly aware of exactly what that entails.

[Nidgit]

I would say that the form you want needs to have existed at some point in your world, though it could pretty easily be bypassed by saying that creature exists on a different, presumably celestial, plane.

Most GMs probably won't mind you selecting a form that's not on the list as long as it's a plausible mount CR2 or below.

[jollydm]

It's one of those things we don't question, for sanity's sake. Like how in the world do you know how all of your spells function as a cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, or sorcerer? You never studied them, you just suddenly had them one day.

At least in the cleric and paladin's case they had to pray for it, but there's certainly no mechanic where you pray for something and get either nothing, because it wasn't possible to grant, or something entirely different. And how would they know what they got, in any case?

Did I mention Magic Initiate?

It's easier to just say "If you have magic, you understand it". Perhaps it's part of the weird nature of magic, which by definition follows no mundane laws. If you can cast fireball, you're perfectly aware of exactly what that entails.

It's a wonder all the spellcasters aren't all mad.

[solidork]

It's one of those things we don't question, for sanity's sake. Like how in the world do you know how all of your spells function as a cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, or sorcerer? You never studied them, you just suddenly had them one day.

We liked to joke that when my War Cleric leveled up, he got a holy powerpoint presentation from his god while he was asleep.

[jollydm]

We liked to joke that when my War Cleric leveled up, he got a holy powerpoint presentation from his god while he was asleep.

Probably still more interesting than the Knowledge Cleric version of that presentation.

[Angelalex242]

War Cleric version: War stories, with Oliver North

Knowledge Cleric version: And I want a 10 page term paper done on the effects of your new spells by the end of this dream.

[Sigreid]

I would say that the form you want needs to have existed at some point in your world, though it could pretty easily be bypassed by saying that creature exists on a different, presumably celestial, plane.

Most GMs probably won't mind you selecting a form that's not on the list as long as it's a plausible mount CR2 or below.

I don't see why. Pegasus never existed in our world but our ancestors could clearly picture them. A magic spirit should be able to take a form that had been dreamed up, but not born.

[jollydm]

I don't see why. Pegasus never existed in our world but our ancestors could clearly picture them. A magic spirit should be able to take a form that had been dreamed up, but not born.

Right? The nonexistence of the creature doesn't mean much when we still have the ability to imagine.

[Dualswinger]

With many spells like this, at my table we take “function over form”.

It came up with the hexblade pact weapon, where a character wanted his weapon to be a crossbow statistically, but wanted to shoot energy blasts over simple bolts. We allowed it, since it’s purely a aesthetic choice in the part of the player.

Same with your team. Your Paladin could have the statistics of a Rhino Mount, but the actual physical form is a similar “large quadrupedal creature with charging attacks” that would be more appropriate to your setting

[JackPhoenix]

Right? The nonexistence of the creature doesn't mean much when we still have the ability to imagine.

The ability to imagine something doesn't make that something real, though.

[DarkKnightJin]

The ability to imagine something doesn't make that something real, though.

That's only because we don't (yet) possess the means to make reality bend to our whim, like the magic users in D&D can.

[Vogie]

War Cleric version: War stories, with Oliver North

Knowledge Cleric version: And I want a 10 page term paper done on the effects of your new spells by the end of this dream.

The Nature Cleric's version is clearly narrated by David Attenborough

[danpit2991]

The ability to imagine something doesn't make that something real, though.

a wizard did it

[LankyOgre]

There is some level that the precise rules-specifics of the spell are metagame for the player instead of the character. Most wizards probably know that a fireball fills up an area roughly the size of a house. We as players know that it specifically is a 20-ft radius sphere. Including the level of granularity to randomize all effects would be obscenely cumbersome for very little enjoyment. Can you imagine if DMs picked all divine spellcaster spells, every spell required a to-hit roll, durations were entirely random and up to the DM, and buffs were entirely random. We'd be playing Paranoia. Some people may enjoy that, but I think a lot of people would rather know exactly what their spells do every turn. Its part of why the Wild Magic Sorcerer is seen as so underpowered.
In regards to the find greater steed spell, you need to talk to the player. Does the form of a rhino exist, even if the actual animal doesn't? If yes, then the paladin can summon it. If no, then the paladin either can't, or needs to describe it differently. I don't even know if it is a conscious, in-character choice, so much as a metagame, player choice.

[JackPhoenix]

a wizard did it

He did not. Find Steed isn't on wizard's spell list.

[Chugger]

Just use common sense - the DM should make a list of animals that "fit" in his/her world that give some choice - maybe that at least somewhat mirror the suggestions in the new rule for this spell - i.e. at least one flying mount - at least one armored massive tank-like mount - and so on. You don't "have to" to anything - you can tailor the rules to fit your version, your reality. If it feels right - this is what is usually most important.

Don't be a stickler on stuff like this (where the spell is clearly intended to summon a pretty impressive mount) - just make it work - and that usually produces the best results.

[holywhippet]

He did not. Find Steed isn't on wizard's spell list.

Wish is though and you can use it to duplicate find steed.

[Tanarii]

We'd be playing Paranoia.

In paranoia you know the computer is your friend. Clearly you can trust any decisions it makes.

[Grey Watcher]

I just figured that choosing was an out of character decision, not an in character one. Out of character, the player selects which one they want from a menu of options. In character, they are simply granted a mount deemed appropriate for them by their god/the multiverse/the great slot machine in the sky/whatever. Heck you could play it off as a comedic bit if you're so inclined:

"Oh great and merciful Smacky, God of Beating Up Bad Guys, grant me a noble steed that I may better bring your holy righteousness unto the world!"

sabertooth tiger appears:

"Oh. Uh, I was kind of thinking a mighty warhorse with wings or something. Um, nice kitty?" :looks around for large enough cardboard box:

:wizard starts using Minor Illusion to make tiger chase a red dot:

[Droodicus]

In paranoia you know the computer is your friend. Clearly you can trust any decisions it makes.

all hail the computer

[danpit2991]

He did not. Find Steed isn't on wizard's spell list.

obviously.. but apparently someone hasn't heard the old line of when something doesn't make sense that a wizard did it

[CircleOfTheRock]

I hadn't considered the spirit itself might impart the knowledge. The spell seems to imply the spirit is smart enough to do so.

The paladin in question might also simply know what they can summon when they get the spell.

But the metagame of gaining spells and spell-levels that are vastly different in power (particularly for the paladin and other half- or third-casters) is just crazy, and may be a rabbit hole, as it were, that we don’t want to go down.