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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Statistically speaking it's more probable that you will live a sad and unfulfilling life then a pleasant one, so your numbers just don't add up.
    Well, I don't know about that. In order to attach anything so concrete as statistics to the matter we'd have to come up with a way to define and measure 'sad' and 'unfulfilling.' Human happiness is complicated. Lots of people who have 'sad and unfulfilling' lives on paper are super happy and lots of people who appear to have it all worked out are miserable. And we're generally really bad a self-reporting on our own lives.

    If we were beings of pure logic we would conclude that life is pointless since we spent most of it sleeping, on traffic or working.
    That would only be the case if we conclude that those activities are pointless (I disagree) and if we further conclude that life is pointless when the percentage of pointless activities reaches some kind of majority threshold (I disagree with that as well).

    Most people don't enjoy working or staying on traffic, so most of our life is spent doing unpleasant and unhappy things, hence life is mostly composed of unpleasant moments so it's not worthy living a lot.
    But do you have any proof that people who spend their lives doing 'happy' things are happier? More fulfilled? Self-report more life satisfaction? Think their lives are less worth living? Human happiness seems to be, at least partly, relative. And the more 'pleasant' things you have, the less they mean. Even very, very, very poor in developed countries have orders of magnitude more leisure and ease and 'wealth' when compared to almost every other human who ever lived in any other era. But they don't necessarily FEEL rich. And some empirical data suggests that life satisfaction in developed nations increases with annual income until you hit about $70,000 USD, after which more money does not correlate highly with more life satisfaction.

    People are complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    I find this idea so silly, you still are yourself, you are a better version of yourself, with all the collected knowledge and experiences of your "past selfs" that's different then having all your being erased.
    Its not the same, its not even an absurd simplification its just wrong.
    You can find it silly if you want to, but it's neither absurd nor 'just wrong' just because you say so. There's a lot of complex philosophy regarding what the self is and how you define it.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Hahahahaha you speak as if life was just plesure and leisure.
    Life is not pleasure and leisure. It's not even mostly that.

    But even in the roughest and worst lives there are moments of pleasure and leisure. Life becomes moving towards those moments, hopefully resulting in a point where you, or at least your children, will be able to have more of those moments.

    When you talk about not having life you talk about removing the potential not only for boredom, pain, sorrow, and other negative things, but also the potential for joy, wonder, and other positive things. I've met many people who think the bad is worth the good, and others who don't.

    I also know people on every side of the immortality debate, from 'life is suffering, why let it continue?*' to 'sure, why not', crossing over 'don't care' in the process.

    * Because humans have a strong tendency to regret suicide right after performing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I'm really young though, so I have a lot ahead of me, which might skew my perspective a bit.
    I think this is a big thing. During my youth we were essentially told that we can expect to die of old age in our seventies or eighties, which makes those like me in our twenties less accepting of death. Although it's certainly not universal, I know people my age who would be fine with dying tomorrow.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Despite the possibility of deciding that life is suffering ergo why not die, it's interesting that not a lot of people calmly, rationally, logically commit suicide. That either tells you that life isn't logically made of suffering, or that people are irrational.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    Despite the possibility of deciding that life is suffering ergo why not die, it's interesting that not a lot of people calmly, rationally, logically commit suicide. That either tells you that life isn't logically made of suffering, or that people are irrational.
    1) Some studies suggest that depressed people do think more rationally, and depressed people are more prone to ending their own lives. Do note that "rational" in this context refers to the way brains process information and make decisions (see dual system theory), not whatever some armchair logician would decree "rational".

    2) Completely independent of the above, the evidence is overwhelmigly towards people being irrational.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    I find this idea so silly, you still are yourself, you are a better version of yourself, with all the collected knowledge and experiences of your "past selfs" that's different then having all your being erased.
    Its not the same, its not even an absurd simplification its just wrong.
    Not really. Most experiences are forgotten, and recalling the ones that are remembered changes them. Wait long enough, and it seems entirely probable that pretty much every single part of me will alter. Today's weather is usually rather like yesterday's, yet January has different weather than July. Continuity is not constancy.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Equally importantly, an upward trend is not guaranteed, that is, you do not get better as any sort of hard rule. On the contrary, it is coded in the very thought of everything dying that everyone will eventually start becoming worse.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Equally importantly, an upward trend is not guaranteed, that is, you do not get better as any sort of hard rule. On the contrary, it is coded in the very thought of everything dying that everyone will eventually start becoming worse.
    One of my favorite uses of Simpson's Paradox is how everybody's life can be constantly getting worse but on the whole people's lives are improving.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    From Emperor Marcus Aurelius. Can't find the exact quote, but this is the gist of it:

    When we die, we'll either stop existing and experience nothing (in which case, experience nothing unpleasant), so why worry; or we'll continue existing and experiencing things in a different form, in which case why worry?

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Also, I fear death, almost as much as I also hate sports.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    or we'll continue existing and experiencing things in a different form, in which case why worry?
    ...and then you find the afterlife is you, alone, in a small room, with Nickelback songs on constant loop.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    Statistically speaking it's more probable that you will live a sad and unfulfilling life then a pleasant one, so your numbers just don't add up.

    If we were beings of pure logic we would conclude that life is pointless since we spent most of it sleeping, on traffic or working.

    Most people don't enjoy working or staying on traffic, so most of our life is spent doing unpleasant and unhappy things, hence life is mostly composed of unpleasant moments so it's not worthy living a lot.

    Wow, that took a dark turn.
    This crosses over with the recent "what proportion of people are happy" thread, but I do not agree with this.

    How do you statistically demonstrate that most people live a sad unfulfilling life. At most I think it might be possible to assert statistically that most people perceive their life that way, rather than that it objectively is. But can you even point to any statistical proof of that?

    If your proof is simply that most people don't enjoy working or being in traffic, and most people spend most of their time doing those things, then I think your argument is flawed as follows:
    • I don't think it is true that most people don't enjoy working in the context you use. Most people may not enjoy work relative to having leisure time (ie they prefer days off), but I suggest that may enjoy working more than not existing at all. I certainly would.
    • I doubt most people are at work or in traffic most of the time - that would be 12 hours a day seven days a week. More than 12 hours a day if you have days off.
    • Even if most people did like working better than not existing, and did work most of their lives, it doesn't follow that their lives are sad. It may be that their work is only moderately boring and the rest of their lives is very exciting. This is borne out by the fact that in countries where you do not need to work to survive, most people do still choose to work so that they have more income for those hours where they are not at work.



    I think (I wont claim to be able to demonstrate it statistically) that most people are happy, and would rationally prefer to continue living than to die. I also think that it is more about their outlook than their circumstances (a person who works long hours might be happy, and a person who does not work (and is still financially comfortable) might be unhappy).
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-02-27 at 05:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't fear the reaper?

    On a sporting occasion someone of ocular persuasion
    said in conversation
    how I hate this all this row
    what care I which way the ball will go
    I plan a game much more thorough
    spin and spin around I go
    on one side a cup of poison
    on the other side water
    a blindfold so which I will not know
    I care not what I will lose
    I care not what I will gain
    for I am sure I'll feel no more pain
    existence has my disdain
    let us see if I another breath
    for
    Also, I don't fear death!

    Also, I hate sports.


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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    From Emperor Marcus Aurelius. Can't find the exact quote, but this is the gist of it:

    When we die, we'll either stop existing and experience nothing (in which case, experience nothing unpleasant), so why worry; or we'll continue existing and experiencing things in a different form, in which case why worry?
    I'm really just repeating myself, but:

    Why worry? Because this whole "experience" deal is a red herring. In reality, your death has both a cause and an effect, regardless of whether you experience them or not. Since not all of these effects are something you would desire, and not all of the causes are beyond your control, there is a reason to worry. Since life ends in death, all questiona of "what is an acceptable death?" are round-about ways of asking "what is an acceptable life?" Only a nihilist will think all deaths, and hence all lifes, are all the same.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    This animation seems to summarize some ideas of this thread pretty nicely:


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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    If we were beings of pure logic we would conclude that life is pointless since we spent most of it sleeping, on traffic or working.
    I strongly disagree. First off, can you really say that you are miserable when sleeping? I don't think so. Anyway, people don't actually work as much as they think they do. For the first 20-25 years of their lives most people (in the Western world, anyway) don't work all that much at all. Secondly, even when you do work, it's generally something like 40 hours per week, and people sleep maybe 56 hours per week, leaving you with 56 hours of spare time. And then there are vacations and retirement (many people are retired from age 65 and live to 80, or longer) and such. Oh, and I'd imagine most people find some fun in at least part of their job.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    So... Question to The Eye: if you're bothered by the irrationality since death can't be avoided, what kind of things is it fine to be afraid of in your opinion?
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    How do you statistically demonstrate that most people live a sad unfulfilling life.
    You could start by measuring their fear and how constant it is felt, for example (fear of... unemployment, homelessness, sickness, exclusion/persecution, of the government, retirement poverty, violent death, and so on).
    Contrast that to actual statistics for each section to find out whether those fears are founded.
    Make a cross section of mental/physical health problems with a direct correlation to the appropriate fear and you should have a solid base to work with.
    For comparison reasons, actually chart what people trust in and how founded the trust is in the long run.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    You might as well ask "why does the sun come up in the morning, instead of at night when a bit of extra light would be useful?" The question itself contains so many assumptions and misconceptions, it's hard to even think about.

    Why are we afraid of death? Because we're alive. We have already preselected for that trait. I know there have been moments in my life when, but for a healthy sense of self preservation, I would quite definitely have died; and I think, although I'm not aware of any stats on the subject, that the same is true for most, if not just about all, people.

    Rationally, I love my family. I want to help my kids as much as I can, and watch them grow up to have lives and families of their own. Can't do any of that if I'm dead. And there are other people I also have lesser responsibilities to, and even my job, which I don't want to leave undone.

    If I died, I would leave a gap in the world, and I don't want to do that until all the people around me have had a chance to prepare for that.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Broadly speaking, its a combination of age, experience and expectations, so the answer to the OP question is always in a sort of flux.

    Its actually not a bad thing to come to the conclusion that life will end in death and each of use is handed the same deal: "One Life". Nothing wrong with that, it just begets the question what you do with it.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    You could start by measuring their fear and how constant it is felt, for example (fear of... unemployment, homelessness, sickness, exclusion/persecution, of the government, retirement poverty, violent death, and so on).
    Contrast that to actual statistics for each section to find out whether those fears are founded.
    Make a cross section of mental/physical health problems with a direct correlation to the appropriate fear and you should have a solid base to work with.
    For comparison reasons, actually chart what people trust in and how founded the trust is in the long run.
    How would you measure their fear of those things? How would you balance those fears against the various pleasures on the plus side of the balance sheet.

    Also, why would it matter to a person's happiness whether their fears were founded? Surely all that matters to their happiness is whether they subjectively hold the fear - whether it is founded or not.

    Even if the fears are not just founded, but are actually realised, that doesn't mean the person is unhappy. There are people who are unemployed, who experience exclusion, who are retired, who are poor etc who are still happy.

    I don't think anything you've suggested would (even if the results turn out how you expect) demonstrate that most people live a sad unfulfilling life, and more than satacaldo's assertions did.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-02-28 at 06:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Rationally, I love my family. I want to help my kids as much as I can, and watch them grow up to have lives and families of their own. Can't do any of that if I'm dead. And there are other people I also have lesser responsibilities to, and even my job, which I don't want to leave undone.
    This is true, having children does make one worry about death - you don't want to miss them growing up or be unable to provide for them and support them.

    Which is consistent with my earlier answer - I don;t think people are afraid of dying eventually, they are afraid of dying before their old age.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    How would you measure their fear of those things? How would you balance those fears against the various pleasures on the plus side of the balance sheet.
    Key is avoiding self-deception when building a control group. You've got to have an actual census at hand and some in-depth how the actual break-down is, then go out an find persons that are actually archetypical for the situation you want to survey in-depth.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    It's a fact that everyone is going to die one day, whya re people so afraid of it?

    it's like being afraid that the sky is blue, it just is, there is nothing you can do about it.

    I really don't get what the fuss is all about.
    Doesn't look like you are following this thread anymore... but to respond:

    Your question is flawed, because you assume that people choose to be afraid and can choose not to. Fear is an emotion that is biologically programmed into us, it is a response our body has to protect itself.

    You can make a conscious effort to train yourself not to be afraid of certain things, but it isn't overly easy. People who are "brave" and not afraid of dangerous things often are born that way. i.e. their body naturally doesn't freak out and start pumping out stress hormones like other people's bodies.

    Lots of people can also say "I'm not afraid of X", and then when they actually experience X... they realize they are mistaken.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    I will go and give you some:

    Everything humanity accomplished, until today and probably unil its extinction will be:

    a) A way to de lay and ultimately avoid death. Almost all technological advances today.

    b) A way to deny/not acknowledge death. Some religions and most of the entertainment, if you have you mind occupied, there's a time you aren't thinking "OMG. I will die someday".

    c) A way to cope with/accept death. Some religions/spirituality, or just the acepting the freaking cycle of carbon.

    and that's okay. Even stars must cease. Everything will became heat noise, I think.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    People are afraid of death because they won't be around to see how history turns out.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Key is avoiding self-deception when building a control group. You've got to have an actual census at hand and some in-depth how the actual break-down is, then go out an find persons that are actually archetypical for the situation you want to survey in-depth.
    I didn't understand how any of that answered the question.

    But how much fear does it take to overshadow the pleasures in one's life? Also, just because one has a lot of fear(s) does not mean that they have an unfulfilling life.
    Wait.. what if instead of measuring their fear (which we totally can do), we just use our empath powers to measure how sad and/or unfulfilled they feel their lives are?

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Key is avoiding self-deception when building a control group. You've got to have an actual census at hand and some in-depth how the actual break-down is, then go out an find persons that are actually archetypical for the situation you want to survey in-depth.
    It sounds like you are saying that we have to do a lot of subjective stuff to find a result that we want to hold up as objective.

    Even if it could be done objectively there it would not show that most people lead sad lives. At most it might show that people have some degree of fearfulness of bad things.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-02-28 at 08:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Huh... ya know, I just realized (and this might have been said elsewhere, I've been skimming the thread off and on), I'm pretty sure we fear things because that's Mother Nature's way of saving don't do this. We fear heights and venomous things, bodily harm. It's our instinct to live on, probably built into us living things to propagate life. And I imagine even after we're fit to have children, we simply don't lose that fear.
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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elanasaurus View Post
    I didn't understand how any of that answered the question.

    But how much fear does it take to overshadow the pleasures in one's life? Also, just because one has a lot of fear(s) does not mean that they have an unfulfilling life.
    Wait.. what if instead of measuring their fear (which we totally can do), we just use our empath powers to measure how sad and/or unfulfilled they feel their lives are?
    Fear is just an example because that is rather easy to measure. To use a concrete examples, if chance for retirement poverty is about 15%, but 50% of people fear it, than its a thing dragging people down. When chances for getting cancer are around 10% but only 1% of people fear that, it seems to not drag people down.

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    Default Re: Why are people afraid of death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Fear is just an example because that is rather easy to measure. To use a concrete examples, if chance for retirement poverty is about 15%, but 50% of people fear it, then its a thing dragging people down. When chances for getting cancer are around 10% but only 1% of people fear that, it seems to not drag people down.
    Ok but the question was
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    How do you statistically demonstrate that most people live a sad unfulfilling life.
    Fear may be easier to measure, but what about fulfillment? Also wouldn't the 1% of people still be dragged down by the fear of cancer?

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