Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 151 to 180 of 328
  1. - Top - End - #151
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Do you blame the scrawny 60 kg guy that got beaten to a pulp for speaking up against the 120 kg muscle-bound bully?
    I do if the 60kg guy started the fight and took a swing at him first.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    Paladins are very strict to play . A player should literally detect Evil if the party encounters anybody or anything . Thats all he has to keep him out trouble with his deity .
    Depends heavily on the setting. Not only are there many ways of fooling Detect Evil - but for some DMs, close to 1/3 of the population of an average town will detect as evil - with the assumption being that not everyone who's Evil-aligned deserves to be attacked.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    I do if the 60kg guy started the fight and took a swing at him first.
    Exactly.

    Lets take a step back here. If these weren't peasants in the middle of a city, but orcs or bandits or whatever your favorite flavor of "random encounter of marauders" is, would this even be a debate? Literally the only reason ive seen that's remotely in favor of making the paladin fall is that the peasants were deceived innocents, which A: they totally were not, since they initiated violence against the party with no evidence that they had done anything wrong, and B: the only information the party had to work off of was that they were attacked by random people, which is a frequent enough occurrence that it has entered gamer slang.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    The party do have the information that their attackers believe them to be thieves.

    Wrongly, yes - but they're still trying to rectify an injustice.


    If the party had been conned themselves - they'd want to be given the benefit of the doubt for "wrongly initiating violence in an attempt to help the innocent"
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    I do if the 60kg guy started the fight and took a swing at him first.
    Even if the swing was made in a way that could not actually harm the bully (that is not aiming for eyes or other vulnerable parts)? The Retaliation send the scrawny guy into the Hospital. Is the moral blame still on the 60kg guy?


    The specific example is not important. The point is that blaming victims of severe violence caused by Moral Agents is backwards. It is a Moral failure by itself.

    If Joe the Commoner moves into the vicinity of a Balor "to get a look", it's Joes fault that he gets slaughtered. But there is no-one to blame since what Joe did has (ceteris paribus) no Moral value. And the Balor can't be blamed since it is not a Moral Agent.

    Substitute "Balor" with "Bear" or "Vulcano".


    But a Paladin is not only a Moral Agent. A Paladin is a Moral Agent that holds theirself to a very high standard of conduct.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tajl View Post
    Problem is that there was no reason for party to not expect them to be a threat. At first they of course would think so when they look like peasants. But that changes when they don't care about intimidation and instead attack. Normal peasants don't do that. It just is not possible so only logical explanation is that they are not normal peasants.
    The problem is that normal peasants DID do this and the players made choices with the knowledge that the mob was no threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Literally the only reason ive seen that's remotely in favor of making the paladin fall is that the peasants were deceived innocents
    Well, appearently you missed the following things:
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to solve the situation in a non-violent matter
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to defeat the mob without killing them
    - the Paladin continued to use leathal force against already defeated opponents


    Also, your "if they weren't peasants" is goal-post shifting: "what if they werent clearly civilians but bandits or enemy soldiers?" Yeah, when the Situation is different conclusions tend to be different, too.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well, appearently you missed the following things:
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to solve the situation in a non-violent matter
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to defeat the mob without killing them
    - the Paladin continued to use leathal force against already defeated opponents


    Also, your "if they weren't peasants" is goal-post shifting: "what if they werent clearly civilians but bandits or enemy soldiers?" Yeah, when the Situation is different conclusions tend to be different, too.
    A paladin is not required to be non-violent, and while mercy is a virtue, its not a part of the paladin's code. There is a case for such being a chaotic act, since its in the middle of a city, but paladins do not fall for committing a chaotic act, just from an alignment change.

    And its not goal shifting, its an attempt to point out that calling them peasants or civilians or whatever is immaterial to the actual scenario. They were armed and violent. They are functionally bandits in this encounter even if they do not normally engage in such activities.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Vigilantes, not bandits. Exactly like the adventurers. These can be thought of as low level adventurers, who took up a "quest" that had been given them (by a villain).
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  10. - Top - End - #160
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Vigilantes, not bandits. Exactly like the adventurers. These can be thought of as low level adventurers, who took up a "quest" that had been given them (by a villain).
    Semantics. A level 2 party has no grounds to complain if they attack a gold dragon (being generally ignorant of the nature of dragons and their convenient color coding) and it burns most of them to a crisp.

    Furthermore, challenging lawbreakers is what guards are for. It would be one thing if the woman claimed the party was actively attempting to attack her (which would, strictly speaking, be true), but they have no business attacking people in full armor over a crime already committed.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Semantics. A level 2 party has no grounds to complain if they attack a gold dragon (being generally ignorant of the nature of dragons and their convenient color coding) and it burns most of them to a crisp.
    The difference being that there's no "color coding" here - if anything, an active attempt to obscure information about their nature:

    The PC is never really identified as a paladin on sight based on his attire and general attitude. It's not my doing, it's the players. As far as anyone knows, he could be a fighter, a cleric, a knight, etc, etc. He's also a dwarven king, but chooses not to make it visually obvious that he's royalty. He doesn't even wear a crown. This is all by his choice.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  12. - Top - End - #162
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The difference being that there's no "color coding" here - if anything, an active attempt to obscure information about their nature:
    So what? Are you suggesting that makes it better? Replace the gold dragon with a red dragon, and the adventurers still have no grounds for complaint when things go wrong.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  13. - Top - End - #163
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    While we don't know what the peasants' alignment is - people who are prepared to risk their own necks in order to help strangers, are generally good.

    Every time a Good person kills another good person - it's a victory for Evil.

    The peasants were showing restraint - trying to knock out their suspect with the pommels of their weapons.

    Their adversaries, despite reason to believe that these people were trying to Do Good, showed no restraint at all.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  14. - Top - End - #164
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Berlin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well, appearently you missed the following things:
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to solve the situation in a non-violent matter
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to defeat the mob without killing them
    - the Paladin continued to use leathal force against already defeated opponents


    Also, your "if they weren't peasants" is goal-post shifting: "what if they werent clearly civilians but bandits or enemy soldiers?" Yeah, when the Situation is different conclusions tend to be different, too.
    This is why I asked a bit upthread how and with what play style this specific group played earlier and up to this specific "incident" (and received no answer so far). If it´s been established that this is a kick in the door, slaughter them all, have fun at looting kind of gaming group, then the points you named are pretty irrelevant, as this is the established pattern for that particular group and the players acted in accordance to it. In this case, it´d actually be interesting to question why the gm chose to include an encounter that actually goes against the established pattern.

  15. - Top - End - #165
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    While we don't know what the peasants' alignment is - people who are prepared to risk their own necks in order to help strangers, are generally good.

    Every time a Good person kills another good person - it's a victory for Evil.

    The peasants were showing restraint - trying to knock out their suspect with the pommels of their weapons.

    Their adversaries, despite reason to believe that these people were trying to Do Good, showed no restraint at all.
    And why should they? These peasants initiated a confrontation, ignored the party's claims of innocence, and then attacked them unprovoked. I'm sure the peasants thought they were doing good, but actual do-gooders don't mug people in the middle of the street on the word of a stranger. That's why I keep comparing them to bandits: because theyre doing what bandits do!
    Last edited by Keltest; 2018-03-05 at 10:52 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I'm sure the peasants thought they were doing good, but actual do-gooders don't mug people in the middle of the street on the word of a stranger.
    Isn't that standard operating procedure for D&D adventurers though - at least in computer games with quests?
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  17. - Top - End - #167
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Isn't that standard operating procedure for D&D adventurers though - at least in computer games with quests?
    Yes, which is why most D&D adventurers are regarded as being absolute lunatics. Also, doing so in most games with more than a background setting will get you in trouble with various groups when you do that.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  18. - Top - End - #168
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Berlin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Isn't that standard operating procedure for D&D adventurers though - at least in computer games with quests?
    They emulate hack and slay, yes. I'm actually wondering whether I've ever played a computer game where you could actually and actively "fall".

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    They emulate hack and slay, yes. I'm actually wondering whether I've ever played a computer game where you could actually and actively "fall".
    You could in Baldur's Gate if you killed anyone the game deemed a non-combatant.

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So what? Are you suggesting that makes it better? Replace the gold dragon with a red dragon, and the adventurers still have no grounds for complaint when things go wrong.
    This was an impressive leap of goalshifting.

    So the paladin shouldn't fall if their behavior is no worse than an average Red Dragon?
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    The problem is that normal peasants DID do this and the players made choices with the knowledge that the mob was no threat.
    No normal peasants didn't do that because not caring about intimidation and starting fight changed them to something else. It is not possible to stay as normal peasant and act like thug.

    It is same if my character is innocent saint and them I play him as jerk and steal candy from kids. I can't expect that people treat me like innocent saint after that. Instead they treat me as a jerk who steal candy from kids.

  22. - Top - End - #172
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    You could in Baldur's Gate if you killed anyone the game deemed a non-combatant.
    How many times those non-combatans attacked party?

  23. - Top - End - #173
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well, appearently you missed the following things:
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to solve the situation in a non-violent matter
    - the Paladin made no attempts whatsoever to defeat the mob without killing them
    - the Paladin continued to use leathal force against already defeated opponents


    Also, your "if they weren't peasants" is goal-post shifting: "what if they werent clearly civilians but bandits or enemy soldiers?" Yeah, when the Situation is different conclusions tend to be different, too.
    Paladin code says: " A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

    Those peasants were threatening innocent party with violence and then they started the fight. Paladin code doesn't say anything about mercy for the wicked, instead it demands that he punish people who do exactly what those peasants were doing.

  24. - Top - End - #174
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tajl View Post
    How many times those non-combatans attacked party?
    Oh - they didn't. About the only time that it really happened was with all of the dopplegangers scattered about. The game made it easy to attack a peasant by slipping a few actual peasants mixed in with a series of dopplegangers you came across. By the 3rd one it became REALLY tempting to just start killing everyone in the area so that they didn't get a free swing or two at you.

    Either that or you might have fallen if you were sloppy about where you aimed a fireball. (I don't think that the game differentiated between which party member actually killed the peasant.)
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2018-03-05 at 02:33 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #175
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Okay if the paladin was actually personally cutting down fleeing peasants as they ran away then you're probably justified in making him fall.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Okay if the paladin was actually personally cutting down fleeing peasants as they ran away then you're probably justified in making him fall.
    Though you would also be justified to make him fall if he let them get away without punishment as his code requires that he punish those who threaten innocents.

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So what? Are you suggesting that makes it better? Replace the gold dragon with a red dragon, and the adventurers still have no grounds for complaint when things go wrong.
    Red Dragons are generally evil. Not a good model for a Paladin to follow. And yes, I would expect a Gold Dragon not to summarily vaporize people who annoyed it.

    People are talking about "the villagers should have expected this" as if it affected the morality of the Paladin's actions. Why would it? If you leave your car unlocked in a bad part of town and it gets stolen, is the thief actually innocent of any crime because you were foolish? Doesn't matter how stupid the villagers were to attack the party; it doesn't change the morality of killing them.

    Also, even IRL, where 'nonlethal' damage isn't guaranteed to be such, there's a legal difference between different levels of force. If someone punches you in a bar fight and you respond by killing them, you're probably not going to be in the clear for self defense.


    I know that people hate the whole Paladin falling thing, but I think that "make it work 4E style, falling is not a thing" is a better solution than having them stay Good when they really aren't.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Eaten by the Snarl
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Personally I think this whole scenario is fall-worthy, but that doesn't mean I'd make him fall. I'd only make him fall if I'd previously agreed with the player that his class would be susceptible to my own moral judgement. Many take this for granted, but I wouldn't. If we hadn't had this conversation, I would tell him what I think about what he did but then actually ask him if he thinks he should fall and I'd only make the decision myself if he told me that it's up to me, otherwise it's up to him. No need to spoil anyone's fun and if you have philosophical disagreements about good and evil, the game table isn't the place to solve them, especially not with one of you (the dm) in a position of authority. Unless, of course, you two enjoy this kind of thing and you're good enough friends that he knows you won't abuse that authority.


    However, I believe the juicy part of this whole thing is the other consequences their heavy-handed and pretty short-sighted handling of this situation will have, as others have mentioned. Examples:

    1) It could directly influence the community, depending on how much power the guild has and how important the ones killed were. If the guild lost much power by this it could create a power vacuum that will be filled by some other faction, or if not, then depending on who died it could result in in-fighting for leadership. If the guild, even if they're crude and a bit thuggish, were keeping other criminals in check, now that they've lost people crime could rise, etc. That's all assuming they're generally good for the community. If they're actually bad, maybe make the community benefit from their getting weakened.

    2) Again, depending on the guild's standing in the community, the heroes could easily become vilified if their explanations of why this happened don't satisfy. If the guild are well loved, it's pretty easy for people to minimize their role in what happened and consider the party murderers. Rumors don't have to be accurate at all and as you can see even your own accurate description of what happened has people defending the guild's actions. Now imagine if they actually knew them personally. If the guild is disliked or hated though, the party could be loved. Either way and even if the communities feeling towards the guild are neutral, the party will be feared.

    3) There's going to be a trial, right? This could depend a lot on how the players handle number 2. You don't have to make authorities an ultra lawful entity that will do their best to make a fair judgement. If the party are universally hated( or loved) and people are vocal about it, the authorities might exile them( or acquit them) even if they don't really think they're guilty( or innocent) to avoid civil unrest. Now I'm not saying it should be a rigged trial, just that this could play a role in its outcome. It wouldn't surprise me if they lost it regardless judging by the communication skills they've displayed . If they win the trial without having secured the peoples' confidence on the other hand, the community's trust in authorities would lessen. Some people could even turn outright hostile to them.

    4) Simplest one, some people( relatives or friends of the dead) might seek revenge. You could make an antagonist out of this.


    Of course, if you don't think giving too much weight to this will be fun, you could just have the leader of the tough guy guild find out that they were tricked by a succubus and resolve this situation.


    Keep in mind I don't have any experience dming at all and only have very little as a player so take my advise and ideas with a grain of salt.
    Last edited by SilverCacaobean; 2018-03-05 at 04:15 PM. Reason: typos

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tajl View Post
    Though you would also be justified to make him fall if he let them get away without punishment as his code requires that he punish those who threaten innocents.
    Maybe if their code is defined as "lawful stupid," sure.

    Technically, we don't know that the party actually WAS innocent (maybe of their accused crime, but maybe not of any other).

    There has to be some accounting for motive and intent. These guys were bluffed by a supernatural personification of evil temptations. It's quite reasonable to argue that they cannot be held guilty for failing a sense motive check they might have literally not been able to succeed at.

    Now it's the paladin threatening and murdering innocents.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do you concider this to go against a Paladin code?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Red Dragons are generally evil. Not a good model for a Paladin to follow. And yes, I would expect a Gold Dragon not to summarily vaporize people who annoyed it.

    People are talking about "the villagers should have expected this" as if it affected the morality of the Paladin's actions. Why would it? If you leave your car unlocked in a bad part of town and it gets stolen, is the thief actually innocent of any crime because you were foolish? Doesn't matter how stupid the villagers were to attack the party; it doesn't change the morality of killing them.

    Also, even IRL, where 'nonlethal' damage isn't guaranteed to be such, there's a legal difference between different levels of force. If someone punches you in a bar fight and you respond by killing them, you're probably not going to be in the clear for self defense.
    Totally agree. I'd add that if you *accidentally* kill in self defense, you have a case to make in court. You *might* be guilty of manslaughter. They swung, you swung, they died before your defense could persuade them to back down.

    If you chase them out of the bar when they want to stop fighting, knock them down, then hack them to pieces with a sword, that is murder with no semblance of self defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •