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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Hazuki, AV, youíre up in the next post.

    You would have completed a significant job for the Syndicate and then gone through a loyalty test to Lusk within the last month before this.

    AV, Iím still waiting on those last two memories. Maybe put the memory of your most recent job with the Syndicate and the loyalty test in there. If you need ideas just ask.
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Aye aye. Glad to start posting.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1703353

    Random, can you work your magic one more time please? Thanks much.
    TC for short
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    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    I think I'll be pulling out of this game. The fact that somebody's made my character but better in every way, so she'd have no use to the party, is a pretty blatant slap in the face. Especially after having put a lot of effort and patience into creating and getting to play her.

    Have a good game, y'all.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    That's... not the effect I was aiming for...

    I thought you'd submitted a Jedi that was half focused on lightsaber combat, and half on force powers? So I kept away from the saber combat and concentrated on a cross of force powers and skillmonkeying. Figured they'd still be distinct enough to not be totally redundant, even if there's some overlap around the force powers...

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    I think I'll be pulling out of this game. The fact that somebody's made my character but better in every way, so she'd have no use to the party, is a pretty blatant slap in the face. Especially after having put a lot of effort and patience into creating and getting to play her.

    Have a good game, y'all.
    Lengthy post follows.
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    Hazuki, Iím not sure what kind of games youíre used to playing in, but I try to make my games decision driven.

    This means what matters most about a character is not so much the mechanical effects a character can produce (though this does have an impact), but the choices they make. Those choices are going to be influenced by the characterís background and the other organizations and interested parties he or she interacts with along the way. This leads to outcomes and consequences, and cascading chains of events. In this way, you could have two exactly identical builds, right down to the equipment, and have completely different experiences and fun in the game.

    The game is not party vs gm, it is character (and their allies, pc and npc alike) vs the galaxy. Each characterís goals, personality, and motivations are distinct, and therefore each characterís challenges and successes / setbacks / failures are distinct.

    To be perfectly honest, out of the three new characters, I consider yours to be the most compelling (no offense AV and whoiam).

    If youíre (and this goes for you too AV) looking for a game where I throw a bunch of level appropriate challenges at you and your idea of winning is wiping out as many faceless mooks as possible to collect their equipment and sell it to upgrade your gear, or rolling some skill checks to Ďwiní at everything, then perhaps this isnít the game for you.

    If youíre interested in exploring the setting that I have created and interacting with the NPCs, with their hidden agendas and motivations, and achieving your characterís goals and having them discover more about themselves and protecting those they care about and taking revenge on those who have crossed you, then perhaps this is the game for you.

    As a side note, there are _always_ character specific challenges. I actually use the npcís in your background and bring them into play. Everyone has a chance to shine ( unless I screw up in which case please call it out).


    TL;DR: have a little faith in your gm.
    Last edited by Thundercracker; 2018-10-05 at 09:33 PM.
    TC for short
    Malcolm Reynolds avatar by Strawberries

    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1703353

    Random, can you work your magic one more time please? Thanks much.
    Blasters were errataed to deal the same damage in stun and regular modes, none of this -1 die BS.

    I think I got TC to approve fractional BaB a while back, which would increase BaB to +7.

    EDIT @ Hazuki: I wouldn't get too hung up on the crunch. If you've taken a look at my sheet, Shyar is pretty much totally built around mano-y-mano combat. Do you know how many people she's beaten up so far?

    Four. Five if you count the time she challenged a wookiee to a sparring match.
    Last edited by RandomLunatic; 2018-10-05 at 09:54 PM.
    I am not crazy! I prefer "reality impaired".

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomLunatic View Post
    Blasters were errataed to deal the same damage in stun and regular modes, none of this -1 die BS.

    I think I got TC to approve fractional BaB a while back, which would increase BaB to +7.

    EDIT @ Hazuki: I wouldn't get too hung up on the crunch. If you've taken a look at my sheet, Shyar is pretty much totally built around mano-y-mano combat. Do you know how many people she's beaten up so far?

    Four. Five if you count the time she challenged a wookiee to a sparring match.
    More importantly random, are you having fun?
    TC for short
    Malcolm Reynolds avatar by Strawberries

    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Yes! *ten characters*
    I am not crazy! I prefer "reality impaired".

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    I think I'll be pulling out of this game. The fact that somebody's made my character but better in every way, so she'd have no use to the party, is a pretty blatant slap in the face. Especially after having put a lot of effort and patience into creating and getting to play her.

    Have a good game, y'all.
    I mean, I get why you're upset, but can you really decide Kikari will be useless without ever trying to play? Especially if you've put a lot of work into her, wouldn't it be a waste?
    Also, if I have to be honest, is "we're both good at using the Force" that much of an overlap? I see different skills, different talents...perhaps it's my ignorance speaking, but is it that different from, say, a melee specialist and a sniper? It basically boils down at "both are good damage dealers", but I've hardly seen anyone consider it an overlap.

    And, that's just considering the crunch aspects, which are not the focus of the game. I don't know if you're reading this, but if you are, try actually giving the game a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomLunatic View Post
    I think I got TC to approve fractional BaB a while back, which would increase BaB to +7.
    You did? Woho! No more wizard BaB!
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    I actually donít recall approving this and itís not in the house rules. I usually rule against this as switching classes gets you a talent and usually a feat.

    Tho if itís a big deal we can add it, just need to make sure all players are using the same rules.
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    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Well, in this particular instance I don't really personally care, as Gial (or the game, really) isn't combat-oriented in the least. However, I have to say that multiclassing to full BaB classes still gives feats and talents, so I think it's sort of unfair for the other characters to have to precisely calibrate the levels at which to multiclass if they don't want to fall behind the already lower 3/4 BaB.
    Last edited by Hyperbolic sine; 2018-10-06 at 04:43 AM.
    To the optimist, the glass is half-full.
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    To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    *shrug* It doesn't matter to me either which BAB rules we're using, as the guns are basically just decoys so random people in the street don't end up guessing she's a force user.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperbolic sine View Post
    Well, in this particular instance I don't really personally care, as Gial (or the game, really) isn't combat-oriented in the least. However, I have to say that multiclassing to full BaB classes still gives feats and talents, so I think it's sort of unfair for the other characters to have to precisely calibrate the levels at which to multiclass if they don't want to fall behind the already lower 3/4 BaB.
    Thatís a good point, Iíll add it to
    The house rules
    TC for short
    Malcolm Reynolds avatar by Strawberries

    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Edit: Best way I can think to resolve this for me is just swapping out Kikari's negotiation talents for some other stuff that might let her interact with the challenges the group faces. 'It won't do anything for having no skills, but I wouldn't be worrying about being overshadowed quite so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    That's... not the effect I was aiming for...

    I thought you'd submitted a Jedi that was half focused on lightsaber combat, and half on force powers? So I kept away from the saber combat and concentrated on a cross of force powers and skillmonkeying. Figured they'd still be distinct enough to not be totally redundant, even if there's some overlap around the force powers...
    I don't think Kikari has a single feat devoted to saber combat, so I'm not sure where you'd get that impression from. She has Block and Deflect and okay physical stats because that's...just how you build a character if you don't want them to die in the first combat. That's how it's always been for me in d20 systems. And, they're defensive, so not something for her to actually "do".

    So, Kikari's contributions are Force Powers, which Zavi is universally better than her at. Her only skill (That isn't mandatory, like Initiative/Perception/Use the Force) is Persuasion, which, again, Zavi is better than her with. Along with a slew of other skills. The only way that Kikari doesn't suck compared to Zavi is being able to take a couple more hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    Lengthy post follows.
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    Hazuki, Iím not sure what kind of games youíre used to playing in, but I try to make my games decision driven.

    This means what matters most about a character is not so much the mechanical effects a character can produce (though this does have an impact), but the choices they make. Those choices are going to be influenced by the characterís background and the other organizations and interested parties he or she interacts with along the way. This leads to outcomes and consequences, and cascading chains of events. In this way, you could have two exactly identical builds, right down to the equipment, and have completely different experiences and fun in the game.

    The game is not party vs gm, it is character (and their allies, pc and npc alike) vs the galaxy. Each characterís goals, personality, and motivations are distinct, and therefore each characterís challenges and successes / setbacks / failures are distinct.

    To be perfectly honest, out of the three new characters, I consider yours to be the most compelling (no offense AV and whoiam).

    If youíre (and this goes for you too AV) looking for a game where I throw a bunch of level appropriate challenges at you and your idea of winning is wiping out as many faceless mooks as possible to collect their equipment and sell it to upgrade your gear, or rolling some skill checks to Ďwiní at everything, then perhaps this isnít the game for you.

    If youíre interested in exploring the setting that I have created and interacting with the NPCs, with their hidden agendas and motivations, and achieving your characterís goals and having them discover more about themselves and protecting those they care about and taking revenge on those who have crossed you, then perhaps this is the game for you.

    As a side note, there are _always_ character specific challenges. I actually use the npcís in your background and bring them into play. Everyone has a chance to shine ( unless I screw up in which case please call it out).


    TL;DR: have a little faith in your gm.
    Trust me, I'm not into combat, looting, dungeon crawling and so on. Mechanics are something I put up with for the sake of being able to roleplay fun characters in interesting settings. In this case, it's a problem for me because, even if you say that Kikari will have a chance to shine, I don't see where that would be. What use is her Persuasion when there's a superior Persuader in the same group? What use are her Force abilities when somebody's already doing them (Better and more consistently)? I'm not going to be able to portray her as an effective character, especially not with this group, if she just stands around doing nothing because somebody's already doing what she'd do. It feels like the only time she'd actually get to contribute is when it's something that just involves her story (As in, something the other characters would have no interest in).

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomLunatic View Post
    EDIT @ Hazuki: I wouldn't get too hung up on the crunch. If you've taken a look at my sheet, Shyar is pretty much totally built around mano-y-mano combat. Do you know how many people she's beaten up so far?

    Four. Five if you count the time she challenged a wookiee to a sparring match.
    I've seen it, but I don't understand a lot of it because I hadn't done anything in Star Was Saga for years before making Kikari. Either way, I feel like she might not have had those beating up moments if...I dunno, Mandalore were present and able to punch those people with much greater ease. Being accompanied by a character who can do everything you can do, but better, can work if you're trying to tell a story about envy, insecurity, etc. specifically focused on that. Otherwise, it just prevents you from having moments where you'd shine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperbolic sine View Post
    I mean, I get why you're upset, but can you really decide Kikari will be useless without ever trying to play? Especially if you've put a lot of work into her, wouldn't it be a waste?
    Also, if I have to be honest, is "we're both good at using the Force" that much of an overlap? I see different skills, different talents...perhaps it's my ignorance speaking, but is it that different from, say, a melee specialist and a sniper? It basically boils down at "both are good damage dealers", but I've hardly seen anyone consider it an overlap.

    And, that's just considering the crunch aspects, which are not the focus of the game. I don't know if you're reading this, but if you are, try actually giving the game a chance.
    It would be a waste, but so would continuing to play and then not getting to put any of that effort to use and me slowly growing more discontent as I'm overshadowed for months. Quitting is the same waste, but without that stress.

    They don't have different skills (Unless you count Endurance, which is a trash safety skill) and, since Adept Negotiator is a terrible prereq I needed to get Force Persuasion, the only actual Talent difference is that Kikari can give an ally +5 to a skill instead of mind probes, stealth, and piloting.
    Last edited by Hazuki; 2018-10-06 at 07:26 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Right, I'm going to address these in mostly chronological order:

    1. Persuasion checks - As the face, Jhriss has the highest persuasion at 18. Kikari is second at 16 (UTF via Force Persuasion) while Zavi has 14; and I hardly think you can fault the face character for having the highest persuasion. Kikari also has Adept Negotiator, which gives her the added bonus of being able to potentially better diffuse and slant/win encounters towards the party's favour without/ahead of combat. NPCs are not robots (except for the droids, they're robots) or video game AIs, they have motivations and feelings, and self-preservation and demoralization are strong ones.

    2. Crunch Build overlap and usefulness - Kikari has two talents dedicated to saber combat: block and deflect. You may think they're mandatory but I don't think they are, and Zavi doesn't have them (so if you're right and they are mandatory that puts her in a heap of trouble). Kikari also has an attack bonus of 10, while Zavi has an attack bonus of 4. This leads to two and a half scenarios I can think of where your character shines over Zavi:
    2a. Because your character has higher hit points, fort/reflex, and block and deflect, Zavi goes down and Kikari stays up and keeps fighting, or runs the away and survives. Or saves Zavi's life.
    2b. Kikari can use the block and deflect talents to protect VIPs (as Qui Gon and Obi Wan did for Amidala) or another player or a droid (opening a door), or to keep a raging Sith or wookie from getting around her by fighting defensively while the rest of the party does whatever.
    2c. Just thought of this, cutting through a door; Zavi does not have a lightsaber. Kikari can more effectively pose as a member of the Jedi Order (or One Sith) as well.

    3. Crunch vs Fluff Gaming Style - If done right, there will be no adventures where some characters aren't interested, and it's mostly my job to make sure it doesn't happen that way. Best way to do this is to tie in the individual PC motivation with the overarching plot or goal of the group but it's not the only way. The only thing you as a player have control over in this game is your decisions, so that's where all of the fun needs to come from (and watching how they play out). If a player is forced into a decision for another player's benefit that isn't in tune with their own character or motivations, it sucks the fun out of the game and strains suspension of disbelief, so I try to avoid those situations. In addition, PbP allows us to split the party effectively, so there is that as well (I can see Shyar and Kikari going to quietly take down some reserve bodyguards or free a VIP while Zavi and Jhriss meet with / distract the enemy or plant some bugs or something, while Gial montiors both from the security feeds and tries to misdirect hostile forces). If you're not interested so much in the mechanical / tactical side of playing, I'd suggest not worrying about it too much.

    4. I disagree that Zavi can do everything Kikari can do but better, as pointed out above. Standing around and doing nothing is a valid option, and sometimes the best option. However, standing around and doing nothing is still your choice. If you don't like standing around and doing nothing, don't choose do it.

    5. Sunk Time and quitting now vs playing and seeing how it goes - Yes, if you quit now, you will not waste any more time on this game. In my experience, the vast majority of games here, well over 80%, die within 6 weeks of chargen. This one has been going for over 5 years. I've had two kids and switched two jobs and moved house twice and the game is still going (yes I don't use the combat maps anymore but the game is still going). So assuming it keeps going (no real reason why it shouldn't), to get an accurate comparison you'd need to compare the time you will spend posting your character's actions in this game 5-15 times per week against creating several characters and perhaps getting through selection and then perhaps getting into a game that lasts 12 months. If you find one. Anyway that's how I would think about it.

    I'm okay with you reworking your character at this point (subject to final approval); as you mentioned you haven't created a SAGA character in a while, I'd like to volunteer the esteemed RandomLunatic for all your RAW crunchy queries.
    Last edited by Thundercracker; 2018-10-06 at 09:36 AM.
    TC for short
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    ...Stupid Ninja DM. *chucks away 20 minutes of now-redundant writing*.

    Anyway, this is going to be a touch disjointed because I'm just erasing most of the bits TC's already covered:

    What you seem to have ultimately done is submitted an all-rounder to a party otherwise full of specialists. I believe Kikari's our second best in regular combat after Shyar, our second best persuader after Jhriss, and our second best force power user after Zavi. This actually makes her quite useful when either a) we're facing a task we need more than one PC to tackle (larger combats, say) or b)the party's split and we need one of those capabilities on both sides of the split.

    We could both try theming our force powers to reduce the overlap between them. That would probably see one doubling down on the damage-dealing powers and the other concentrating more on utility and defensive ones. I'd personally suggest Zavi doing the damage powers and Kikari taking more utility ones, since Zavi doesn't have any other (useful) options in combat and while Kikari's competent with her lightsaber she's not much of a skillmonkey out of combat. But there are other ways we can split powers if you'd prefer something different.

    Since TC's happy with you reworking the character, you could always specialise your build more. You can take resources away from any of Kikari's combat ability, skills and force powers to boost the remaining one(s). I'd personally recommend picking between
    • Stripping down skills to free up bonus feats to boost combat ability.
    • Doing a first level Noble/Scoundrel dip to boost skills at the cost of losing one of your Force Trainings.
    • Stripping physical ability scores to boost your Wis and Cha.

    The second and third of those featured prominently in Zavi's build, at the cost of making her more than a little poor at regular combat.


    And on a more general note, I feel your pain on Adept Negotiator. Never made much sense to me why UTF -> Persuasion took 2 talents, but it was 1 each to get it to Perception, Initiative and Pilot. Also didn't make much sense that they'd leave it off the Jedi's class skills list in the first place considering how much that class encourages you to pump Charisma...

  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    Right, I'm going to address these in mostly chronological order:

    1. Persuasion checks - As the face, Jhriss has the highest persuasion at 18. Kikari is second at 16 (UTF via Force Persuasion) while Zavi has 14; and I hardly think you can fault the face character for having the highest persuasion. Kikari also has Adept Negotiator, which gives her the added bonus of being able to potentially better diffuse and slant/win encounters towards the party's favour without/ahead of combat. NPCs are not robots (except for the droids, they're robots) or video game AIs, they have motivations and feelings, and self-preservation and demoralization are strong ones.
    Oh, I wasn't faulting the Face for having a high Persuasion at all. I'd actually only realized that Jhriss was a face after I'd already finished my post. You seem to be saying that Adept Negotiator is better if you account for the fluff of an encounter rather than just the mechanical effects? If so, I'm not going to try to argue that it's bad, because that would actively go against my interests here. I'll address the relative skills below

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    2. Crunch Build overlap and usefulness - Kikari has two talents dedicated to saber combat: block and deflect. You may think they're mandatory but I don't think they are, and Zavi doesn't have them (so if you're right and they are mandatory that puts her in a heap of trouble). Kikari also has an attack bonus of 10, while Zavi has an attack bonus of 4. This leads to two and a half scenarios I can think of where your character shines over Zavi:
    2a. Because your character has higher hit points, fort/reflex, and block and deflect, Zavi goes down and Kikari stays up and keeps fighting, or runs the away and survives. Or saves Zavi's life.
    2b. Kikari can use the block and deflect talents to protect VIPs (as Qui Gon and Obi Wan did for Amidala) or another player or a droid (opening a door), or to keep a raging Sith or wookie from getting around her by fighting defensively while the rest of the party does whatever.
    2c. Just thought of this, cutting through a door; Zavi does not have a lightsaber. Kikari can more effectively pose as a member of the Jedi Order (or One Sith) as well.
    I feel like the mandatory thing is a matter of perspective. To me, Block and Deflect (And having a Lightsaber) are like...Power Attack in 3.5. Not mandatory, but you're crippling yourself if you don't take them.

    As for combat...yeah, she is better in combat. The only reason I ever get any systems mastery is so I can build my characters for survival (That's why Kikari has so much crap in her inventory, just in case), because the worst thing that can happen is my character dying and me not getting to play them any more. I still don't consider her particularly tough as-built, but yeah, you've got a point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    3. Crunch vs Fluff Gaming Style - If done right, there will be no adventures where some characters aren't interested, and it's mostly my job to make sure it doesn't happen that way. Best way to do this is to tie in the individual PC motivation with the overarching plot or goal of the group but it's not the only way. The only thing you as a player have control over in this game is your decisions, so that's where all of the fun needs to come from (and watching how they play out). If a player is forced into a decision for another player's benefit that isn't in tune with their own character or motivations, it sucks the fun out of the game and strains suspension of disbelief, so I try to avoid those situations. In addition, PbP allows us to split the party effectively, so there is that as well (I can see Shyar and Kikari going to quietly take down some reserve bodyguards or free a VIP while Zavi and Jhriss meet with / distract the enemy or plant some bugs or something, while Gial montiors both from the security feeds and tries to misdirect hostile forces). If you're not interested so much in the mechanical / tactical side of playing, I'd suggest not worrying about it too much.
    If splitting the party is the main reason that redundant skills are okay, then okay. I'm still skeptical of how useful the overlap is when we're working as a team (Which is ideally most of the time), but y'know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    4. I disagree that Zavi can do everything Kikari can do but better, as pointed out above. Standing around and doing nothing is a valid option, and sometimes the best option. However, standing around and doing nothing is still your choice. If you don't like standing around and doing nothing, don't choose do it.
    My point there was more that, like, if somebody is handling negotiations, it wouldn't do to butt in with my own Persuasion check. But, I guess that's what Guidance/Skilled Advisor are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    I'm okay with you reworking your character at this point (subject to final approval); as you mentioned you haven't created a SAGA character in a while, I'd like to volunteer the esteemed RandomLunatic for all your RAW crunchy queries.
    I don't think I will change Kikari unless somebody has some really good suggestions. Reshuffling her feats won't do much and it was already difficult to narrow down the talents she's got.

    Anyway, y'all have convinced me enough to stay. I'll post a replacement of my last IC post as best I can remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    What you seem to have ultimately done is submitted an all-rounder to a party otherwise full of specialists. I believe Kikari's our second best in regular combat after Shyar, our second best persuader after Jhriss, and our second best force power user after Zavi. This actually makes her quite useful when either a) we're facing a task we need more than one PC to tackle (larger combats, say) or b)the party's split and we need one of those capabilities on both sides of the split.
    Honestly, I didn't build her as an all-rounder, just a force-user with some basic lightsaber stuff that are necessary for survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    We could both try theming our force powers to reduce the overlap between them. That would probably see one doubling down on the damage-dealing powers and the other concentrating more on utility and defensive ones. I'd personally suggest Zavi doing the damage powers and Kikari taking more utility ones, since Zavi doesn't have any other (useful) options in combat and while Kikari's competent with her lightsaber she's not much of a skillmonkey out of combat. But there are other ways we can split powers if you'd prefer something different.
    I'm okay with not changing powers, just 'cause I chose all of the ones that I thought would serve her well and I think there's...one in particular that she didn't have room for, but is so specialized that I wouldn't feel comfortable making space for it (It's the Ion Lighting or something one).

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    Since TC's happy with you reworking the character, you could always specialise your build more. You can take resources away from any of Kikari's combat ability, skills and force powers to boost the remaining one(s). I'd personally recommend picking between
    • Stripping down skills to free up bonus feats to boost combat ability.
    • Doing a first level Noble/Scoundrel dip to boost skills at the cost of losing one of your Force Trainings.
    • Stripping physical ability scores to boost your Wis and Cha.

    The second and third of those featured prominently in Zavi's build, at the cost of making her more than a little poor at regular combat.
    The skills that Kikari has from Bonus Feats are Initiative and Perception, the latter of which is immensely valuable and the former is much more so than any bonus a feat can give me. I know Noble dipping is a common thing, but I'd rather not mess with it and I like my Force Powers. Like I said, I'll probably just stick with her as-is.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    And on a more general note, I feel your pain on Adept Negotiator. Never made much sense to me why UTF -> Persuasion took 2 talents, but it was 1 each to get it to Perception, Initiative and Pilot. Also didn't make much sense that they'd leave it off the Jedi's class skills list in the first place considering how much that class encourages you to pump Charisma...
    Right? I feel like Pilot and Mechanics are only class skills for Jedi because of Anakin/Luke. Those skills don't scream "Jedi", whereas they literally have an entire type of Jedi dedicated to diplomacy and Persuasion isn't a class skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    Right? I feel like Pilot and Mechanics are only class skills for Jedi because of Anakin/Luke. Those skills don't scream "Jedi", whereas they literally have an entire type of Jedi dedicated to diplomacy and Persuasion isn't a class skill.
    Pilot is especially dumb because both Anakin and Luke are pretty obviously using the Force Pilot talent to sub in UTF for Pilot - they're not actually good at flying, they're psychically good at flying.

    Anyway, Jhriss has a memory more detailed out than before, although I'm still unsure how much detail I really need from looking at the others. Next memory is probably going to be a blend of first job/loyalty test, and then I'll get my first post up. Sorry for the delay, I've been a bit...distracted the past few days.

    EDIT: On a semi-related note, while researching illegal stuff for Jhriss to smuggle, I found out that the dude who offered Obi-wan Death Sticks in episode 2...his name is Elan Sleazebaggano. That's...an unfortunate surname. XD
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    That's one of the many weird things Star Wars media has seen fit to chronicle. Like, for some reason we needed official artwork depicting Aayla Secura's boobs.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Not sure about now, but back in the George Lucas days, everything had a name.
    TC for short
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    The thing to bear in mind with Initiative/Perception is that they're both class skills for Jedi - so you can dump endurance, shift Initiative or Perception to be the second class skill, and get one of the bonus feats back that way.

    I'd also point out you're actually fairly safe dropping Perception entirely - Zavi (+19), Gial (+15) and Jhriss (+14) all have decent scores, and Shyar (+4) has an awful one, so Kikari's literally the fourth best at it whether she spends the feat on it or not - +7 without, +12 with, still stuck between Jhriss and Shyar either way.

    Ultimately the Jedi class lends itself to a couple of entire different playstyles - one that specialises in the Lightsaber, and one that specialises in Force Powers. Block and Deflect are pretty classic choices for Lightsaber specialists, but they're actually not very important to Force Power ones. A Force Power specialist would likely have just loaded up on extra Force Shields or Negate Energies if she was worried about her survival... but for the most part they're built more like D&D wizards, relying on the meatier parts of the party to take damage while they concentrate on casting.

    (Zavi's build isn't one I'd consider submitting to a solo game, for instance. Combat'd be too risky with such a glass cannon operating on their own.)

    On the subject of Persuasion, the very first draft of Zavi actually had her second Skill Focus in that instead of Treat Injury, and the Force Adept's Force Treatment talent instead of Mind Probe to cover medic duties. I actually shifted them around so as not to overlap too much with Jhriss.

    Just for fun (and since I made the spreadsheet already), here's a little breakdown of who our best and worst are at each skill:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Skill Best PC Worst PC
    Acrobatics Gial (+11) Zavi (+3)
    Climb Shyar (+8) Gial/Jhriss (+3)
    Deception Jhriss (+18) Kikari (+6)
    Endurance Kikari (+11) Gial/Zavi (+4)
    Gather Information Zavi (+19, some uses only) / Jhriss (+18) Gial (+5)
    Initiative Zavi (+19) Shyar (+10)
    Jump Shyar (+8) Gial/Jhriss (+3)
    Knowledge Gial (+14, Technology) / Jhriss (+13, Bureaucracy, Galactic Lore, Social Sciences, Technology) Shyar, Zavi and Kikari (+4)
    Mechanics Gial (+20) Shyar, Zavi and Kikari (+4)
    Perception Zavi (+19) Shyar (+4)
    Persuasion Jhriss (+18) Shyar (+9)
    Pilot Zavi (+19) Shyar (+5)
    Ride Zavi (+8) Shyar (+5)
    Stealth Gial (+22) Zavi (+3)
    Survival Zavi (+9) Shyar (+2)
    Swim Shyar (+8) Gial/Jhriss (+3)
    Treat Injury Zavi (+19) Shyar (+2)
    Use Computer Gial (+22) Shyar, Kikari (+4)
    Use the Force Zavi (+19) Gial (+5)


    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    That's one of the many weird things Star Wars media has seen fit to chronicle. Like, for some reason we needed official artwork depicting Aayla Secura's boobs.
    I'm not against such things existing, but honestly I think it's a shame that it happened before we ever got a cinematic Twi'Lek lead character. There are some good EU Twi'Lek parts out there (Wraith Squadron's Dia Passik and KOTOR's Mission Vao being favourites of mine), but in the films themselves they're always either minor characters or fanservice. And giving them soft-core artwork instead of better parts isn't exactly going to improve the situation.

    If nothing else, I'm hoping one day for a Star Wars trilogy that isn't centered around 3 human leads.

    Also kinda annoying that they chose to do that with the one Twi'Lek that's supposed to be a strong, capable Jedi instead of, say, Jabba's ill-fated dancer.

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    Spoiler: Memories
    Show
    2) One of the more memorable discussions between Jhriss and his cousin was in regards to systems with more limited infrastructure focused on spreading useful information, such as Tatooine or Hoth. Kebel was of the opinion that such markets were often non-competitive with other more built-up planets, meaning that the resources of those planets and developments involving them couldn't spread to the market as a whole, preventing the system from reacting to new developments as optimally as possible for everybody involved, and that the solution would be to improve infrastructure on such planets to the point that they would be much closer to the 'perfect information' state that was ideal for a market to flourish. Jhriss was of the opinion that these markets were inherently inferior and that this inferiority is a feature of economics rather than a bug; some locations are inevitably going to have better resources, or be more conductive to improved information travel, than others, just by virtue of the universe being a random place that isn't predictable and doesn't fall perfectly into what we'd like it to be sometimes. More to the point, Jhriss is of the opinion that the information disadvantage of places like Tatooine has more to do with people preferring to spend their time working to make money instead of ensuring that everybody everywhere has up-to-date information on the most recent farming results, because if that information was more valuable than the work they do, they would get paid more as informants than farmers. This is more indicative of the overall problem these systems have: the resources this system has are too meager for bigger players to value perfect information on, and building the infrastructure to improve this information disadvantage would cost far more than it could ever pay out for those that are making a profit on these places. Where Kebel believes that improving the weakest links of the chain to strengthen the whole chain is the most beneficial, Jhriss is of the opinion that those working with the chain would be better off finding a better link to swap out for the weak ones - which, naturally, would leave those already-weak chains even weaker. This is a sore spot of discussion between the two on a number of issues, where personal interest and responsibility clashes with a greater understanding of social repercussions, but they do their best to keep discussion civil.

    3) Through Decker, Jhriss got involved with the periphery of the Syndicate; Decker's crew would occasionally run jobs for them, just smuggling something here or there without being too involved in the behind-the-scenes details (easier for everybody), but Jhriss wanted something more - an a series of fortunate events saw the perfect opportunity fall into his lap. Jhriss had started taking a more active leadership role on some bigger jobs, and Decker was getting nervous about some of his more generous clients thinking the Mrlssi could do the job better if they met him. This paranoia over potentially losing both crewmembers and clients to his protege spurred Decker into a slight panic, where he got more greedy during negotiations and avoiding more longterm jobs (in case a mutiny saw him needing to make a quick getaway), neither of which endeared him to certain powerful clients - like the Syndicate. Things came to a head when Decker refused one of the Syndicate's time-critical deliveries(out of fear Jhriss would steal the spotlight), and they had to track down somebody else who could do the job. They end up getting in contact with a Rodian chop-shop above Raxus Prime, and one of the mechanics directs them to 'the best smuggler in the galaxy' - who they come to find is a member of Decker's crew working steadfastedly behind the scenes to make jobs run smoother. The Syndicate quickly uncovers everything Decker's been hiding about the rank-climbing rookie and decide to approach him with a test: perform the delivery Decker wouldn't, smuggling the spice right under his nose using his own ship, sold to some Hutt out on Tatooine; if he could do the run and get away clean, the Syndicate would have more important work for him in the future.

    Jhriss, having friends who are friends with that Hutt, gets an idea for how to get the spice to the buyer. He leaves the ship for a spell and starts hitting up every dealer he could find through his contacts that was selling Death Sticks. By the time he was done buying a pack here and there, he had enough to damn near stock a full store - all purchased on behalf of Decker's ship, and with the man's personal accounts - though not with his knowledge. After discrete delivery to the ship was handled, Jhriss called ahead to Tatooine, getting in contact with his good friend Jane Weaver. He spins her a tale about how this poor unsuspecting merchant vessel has picked up a passenger who he believes is the notorious smuggler Dek'voli, and that he's transporting some kind of dangerous cargo he won't let anybody look at that Jhriss suspects is illegal, and if the narcotics officer could do what she could to ensure the bad man didn't deliver his dangerous cargo that would just be swell. After a good bit of back and forth, the nature of the cargo and where she could expect to find it passing through Tatooine airspace was made apparent to Jane, and she was more than willing to play ball: she makes sure the spice gets to a particular Hutt and all the proceeds are sent to Jhriss, and she gets both a solid shipment of Death Sticks to distribute as she pleases (and purely for her own profit) as well as collaring a traitorous smuggler. The deal is struck, and now it's time to set the trap.

    Jhriss goes about hiding the spice and Death Sticks on the ship; the latter is well-hidden, to the point where nobody could find it unless they knew *exactly* where to look (or if, like Jane, they had been told where to find it), while the spice was less skillfully hidden on purpose - including a package in the air-recycling system. With the trap set, and more legitimate cargo bound for Tatooine, they ship set out with Decker none the wiser...for now. Sure enough, about halfway through the journey he realized he could smell the spice in the air, and knew Jhriss had taken the job he'd turned down. Gleeful that his protege had made a mistake, he placed a private call ahead to the narcotics division, informing them of the incoming spice. His report was taken quite seriously by Sergeant Weaver, who promised to have officers ready to apprehend the smuggler responsible for this mess. And so it was that Decker made no attempt to avoid the law enforcement ships that came up on scanner, made no attempt to stall their search for the spice when they boarded the ship. But he was quite surprised when they turned up a large shipment of Death Sticks as well, and was even more surprised when it was he, and not Jhriss, being led away in cuffs. Days later, he would piece together everything that had happened, but by then Jhriss - and his ship, and the payment - were already well on their way out of the system.

    Initially, the Syndicate thought Jhriss had gotten fingered by law enforcement, and didn't trust the payment he'd brought back (probably being tracked). But he managed to talk them into being a bit patient before throwing him in a garbage compactor or something, and to contact the Hutt to see if they'd received the shipment. The Syndicate was both incredibly surprised and pleased to discover that Jhriss had arranged to use a corrupt narcotics officer as a mule as part of him predicting that Decker would rat them out for his personal benefit, killing two birds with one stone in their eyes.


    If the latter isn't incriminating enough for them to feel Jhriss is loyal, I'm open to this starting with a loyalty test for him. I've also added two new friends: Professor Kebel Tridwii, and Sergeant Jane Weaver.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    The thing to bear in mind with Initiative/Perception is that they're both class skills for Jedi - so you can dump endurance, shift Initiative or Perception to be the second class skill, and get one of the bonus feats back that way.

    I'd also point out you're actually fairly safe dropping Perception entirely - Zavi (+19), Gial (+15) and Jhriss (+14) all have decent scores, and Shyar (+4) has an awful one, so Kikari's literally the fourth best at it whether she spends the feat on it or not - +7 without, +12 with, still stuck between Jhriss and Shyar either way.
    Aye, but the thing for Perception and Endurance is that they're both very fitting for Kikari on top of being useful (Well, Perception is). She's always going to be eyeing people up, and she basically scrounged for much of her adolescence.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    Ultimately the Jedi class lends itself to a couple of entire different playstyles - one that specialises in the Lightsaber, and one that specialises in Force Powers. Block and Deflect are pretty classic choices for Lightsaber specialists, but they're actually not very important to Force Power ones. A Force Power specialist would likely have just loaded up on extra Force Shields or Negate Energies if she was worried about her survival... but for the most part they're built more like D&D wizards, relying on the meatier parts of the party to take damage while they concentrate on casting.

    (Zavi's build isn't one I'd consider submitting to a solo game, for instance. Combat'd be too risky with such a glass cannon operating on their own.)
    For some reason that just doesn't stick in my head. I realize there are those who can specialize in lightsaber combat and lean more to one than the other, but they're more like...wizard specialties to me, if you catch my meaning. Just alternate branches that are largely the same.

    Also, part of it may have to do with the fact that force powers are so limited, especially at early levels. You can get Block/Deflect by level 3 and you can use them every round, but you can only get Force Powers by spending precious feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    I'm not against such things existing, but honestly I think it's a shame that it happened before we ever got a cinematic Twi'Lek lead character. There are some good EU Twi'Lek parts out there (Wraith Squadron's Dia Passik and KOTOR's Mission Vao being favourites of mine), but in the films themselves they're always either minor characters or fanservice. And giving them soft-core artwork instead of better parts isn't exactly going to improve the situation.

    If nothing else, I'm hoping one day for a Star Wars trilogy that isn't centered around 3 human leads.

    Also kinda annoying that they chose to do that with the one Twi'Lek that's supposed to be a strong, capable Jedi instead of, say, Jabba's ill-fated dancer.
    Agreed. I haven't experienced a lot of the Star Wars EU (Mostly, just Old Republic stuff), but Mission was a favorite and it's only become more feasible as time passes. Stick some tentacles on Gamora and you've got a Twi'lek.

    And, yeah, I don't mind the boobs thing - it's more funny than anything else - but it would be nice if it had been a character whose sexuality is prominent. As opposed to a Jedi, who, in that era, had basically no sexuality. Really, it's kind of similar to Leia's golden bikini - it's a cultural "This is sexy" thing, and Carrie Fisher did rock it, but then you remember the context of her being enslaved by Jabba and things get a little awkward.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    Just for fun (and since I made the spreadsheet already), here's a little breakdown of who our best and worst are at each skill: *snip*
    So the one amphibian character is the worst at swimming. Also, considering most of the time he's going to roll Use Computer for gathering information, he's simultaneously the best and the worst at that. I am amused.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    If nothing else, I'm hoping one day for a Star Wars trilogy that isn't centered around 3 human leads.
    But there is such a thing. You're playing Episode II right now.
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    To the pessimist, the glass is half-empty.
    To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

    Might suffer occasional hiccups in posting rate. Apologies for the inconvenience.

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    AV, my brain just caught up to the fact one of your contacts is listed as on Alderaan. That wonít work as Alderaan ha been gone for over a century.

    Gotta pick another planet please.
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercracker View Post
    AV, my brain just caught up to the fact one of your contacts is listed as on Alderaan. That wonít work as Alderaan ha been gone for over a century.

    Gotta pick another planet please.
    That's totally fine, it wasn't picked to specifically be Alderaan as much as "let's pick a core world". So let's say now it's on...Corellia.
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    So, other than the last couple of NPC names, are you waiting on anything else from me?

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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Quote Originally Posted by whoiam View Post
    So, other than the last couple of NPC names, are you waiting on anything else from me?
    I need to send updated and questions about your bg, when I get a chance.
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    Default Re: Episode II: The Gathering Storm OOC Thread 2

    Whoiam:

    updates from me in bold:
    Spoiler
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    Five things about the character concept:
    1. Zavi is a force-sensitive Yarkora. One of the very few. She typically uses her species' low force-sensitivity to pretend she's not when interacting with the public.
    2. Zavi is a grey... well, not Jedi, but a grey force user, definitely. Describing her as a grey Jedi would imply some sort of relation to the Order; She's never (officially) had one. But she is very committed to avoiding either the typical light or dark paths.
    3. Believes that following the force at all, regardless of which part you pick, is outright stupid. The Force will always encourage whichever extreme's currently weak to rise up against the other; Long-term, the galaxy won't have real peace so long as people keep on listening to the Force. (Using it is fine, since it's there anyway, just don't obey it.) Where / how did your character adopt this philosophy?
    4. Crime is something of a career of convenience for her - she couldn't get an 'honest' job with her skills without running the risk of drawing Jedi/Sith attention, and she doesn't want either.
    5. She was hired by the Syndicate more for her skill at gathering information than anything. That she's capable of doing a decent impression of a force-sensitive wrecking ball isn't something she publicises, even to other criminals. (Though some former co-workers do know, since she'll break out the force powers whenever she finds herself in combat.)




    Two Goals
    1. Beating 'daddy'. Not physically (though she might enjoy that as well, so long as she didn't end up killing him), but philosophically - she's trying to prove that you can avoid becoming Sith, Destroyer of Worlds even without having to spend your life as some stuffy Jedi. And to force him to acknowledge that she managed it.
    2. Building a secure (and comfortable) life somewhere where neither Jedi nor Sith will be coming after her. She's probably going to need a lot of money for that one... planets don't come cheap!




    Two Secrets
    1. Something of a closet romantic, her 'Mind Probe' ability was originally developed to surreptitiously snoop on others' relationships. She's even helped out once or twice, when it didn't involve going too far out of her way. Keeps this quiet for the sake of her criminal rep. Also possesses a stash of trashy holonovels. Again, kept quiet for reputational reasons.
    2. Maintains a code cylinder full of everything she knows about the syndicate intended for use as her 'retirement' security policy. Like most such things, it's on a 'send to the police if I miss my check-ins' orders with a third party. Not nearly enough to topple the syndicate, of course, but there's something in there for everyone she's worked with... except for a couple of close friends. Not that she'd ever admit to them either that the insurance exists or that it doesn't cover them...
      Need to flesh out the third party company a bit: What is their name? Who is her contact there? How does she update the information on the code cylinder? How much does it cost to maintain it?




    Three People
    1. Zavi's father, a current Jedi Knight named Gadem Zhigid. Hid her force sensitivity from the order so she wouldn't be taken away for training... but proved an unsuccessful master. He managed to pass on some skills, but Jedi Philosophy didn't really take. Currently (quietly) hunting for Zavi - he hasn't admitted his deception to the order, so this is a 'private' search, not a Jedi one. (The 'hostile' contact.)
    2. Treskar Huff, a police contact she's gifted information plenty of times in the past. Never on the Syndicate, but anytime she runs across an 'independent' operation... well, it's nice to have friends on the force, as it were. Especially when you can get them to raid your rivals for you...
    3. Antwer Kruupu, who recruited her into the Syndicate. Not intentionally, as such. Kruupu was taking some 'innocent' passengers along as cover for a 'totally-not-smuggling' trip... without knowing that one of the young ladies had some skill at mind-reading. Luckily for all involved, disappearing into the criminal underworld suited Zavi's purposes... and access to the 'take' from her intelligence gathering suited the Syndicate's.




    Three Memories
    1. Her first kill. Members of a criminal group (the same syndicate she eventually joined, not that she's ever found that out... or would particularly care if she had) her father had been investigating came after her, hoping that a threat to his 'beloved daughter' would make him back off. Instead, they (and she) found out just how much damage a door can do when you rip it out of it's housing and throw it at the back of someone's head. She learned that lesson all too well...
    2. Leaving home. A blazing row about destiny ("You will be a Jedi, like I am! It is your destiny!" / "No, Dad, I'm gonna be a holo actress!") followed by some hardcore sneaking-out-the-window-while-daddy's-in-a-trance action! Not terribly exciting, all told. The version she tells people in bars involves abuse (false), imprisonment (false), guards (non-existent) and a high-speed escape on a hot-wired speeder (she took a bus to the starport). She's not necessarily all that convincing a liar, but makes up for her shaky technique with lots of enthusiasm... and some embellishment.
    3. First flight. While a passenger on Antwer Kruupu's ship, their regular pilot caught a bad case of 'failed klingon promotion'. Zavi confidently claimed she could fly them to their destination... and was as surprised as the desperate Antwer Kruupu when it actually worked!


    Questions: How many dark side points does your character have and how did she earn each of them?
    Is your character loyal to Lusk and the Syndicate, or not so much? If yes, what was the loyalty test and how did she pass?
    Last edited by Thundercracker; 2018-10-08 at 11:32 AM.
    TC for short
    Malcolm Reynolds avatar by Strawberries

    "I like the sense of chaos this game provides. OOC, I like that I cannot know every available avenue, but that I can pursue whatever avenue I so choose. IC, I like that what I am doing has consequences. It's very very real." --Noedig

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