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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    The ranger in my group is looking for multiclass and PrC options.

    She's a TN Wood Elf Ranger 4/Druid 1 who worships Silvanus (FR setting). She's chosen TWF as her combat style and intends to stick to that.

    Ability scores:
    STR 17
    DEX 17
    CON 14
    INT 8
    WIS 18
    CHA 14

    The only one I've been able to find that may work is the CW PrC Darkwood Stalker, but unfortunately this presupposes that we're having a lot of orcs in our campaign. The player isn't willing to risk basing her class on an enemy she possibly won't even encounter. Races of the Wild's Champion of Corellon looks interesting, but it requires a lot of feats, some of which she can't qualify for due to her low INT. Anybody have any ideas?


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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Tempest from Complete Adventure - reduces your attack pentalties and gives bonues to armour, Feats that focus on a weapon type (ie Swords) apply to all weapons of that type (Ie - Focus: Longsword now is applied to Shortsword aswell), culminating in TWSpring attack

    Needs Dodge/Mobility/Spring attack to enter (along with TWF and Imp TWF) & +6 BAB
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Dervish in Complete Warrior allows you to treat scimitars as light weapons, thus you can dual wield, plus it has nifty mobile attacking stuff, but I'm a bit fuzzy as to all the specifics.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    With Two Weapon Fighting as your combat style, I'd suggest Bloodclaw Master from Tome of Battle (if it's in; also, while you're at it, I dearly suggest you pick the Stormguard Warrior feat, which is a must for every TWF with that book accessible) or the Dervish from Complete Warrior.
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Awesome, thanks for the help. I wonder why Tempest didn't cross my mind in the first place. I guess I was looking too hard for nature-flavored classes.

    ToB is included, and Bloodclaw Master is pretty awesome. I just don't know how willing the player is to take levels in martial adept classes. She's also spent a feat already on exotic weapon prof: thinblade, so I don't think she wants to be stuck with Tiger Claw weapons just so she can use her class features. The Stormguard Warrior feat looks really good, though.

    Again, thanks for the help. I'll let her know.


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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    You don't have to use the Tiger Claw's weapons to use the maneuvers; they just give them a miniscule boost. Any weapon can be used perfectly fine.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by martyboy74 View Post
    You don't have to use the Tiger Claw's weapons to use the maneuvers; they just give them a miniscule boost. Any weapon can be used perfectly fine.
    To use the Bloodclaw Master abilities (like Superior TWF), you need to be using either a Dagger or any Tiger Claw maneuver. Since that's pretty much the whole point of taking the PrC, not wanting to use one pretty much puts a damper on wanting to get into the PrC

    Tempest is good, so is Dervish. The combination of the two is insane, specially if you can find a way to get extra damage. Taking a two level dip in Swordsage after level 9 nets you Assassin's Stance for +2d6 sneak attack on every hit, plus Wis bonus to AC.

    Of course, to max out effectiveness of TWF, you need some kind of Pounce ability, otherwise the only thing they need to do to nerf your damage output is move at least ten feet.
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Dervish negates the 10'-move problem all by itself.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Wilrunner and Champion of Corellan Larethian (both from Races of the Wild) are incredible when put together. Take the Improved Weapon Familiarity (Races of Stone, I think, gives you all exotic weapons with your race's name in 'em as martial weapons).

    Possible builds:

    Ranger 4 (using the CCha alternate, give up spellcasting for a feat)/Swashbuckler 1/Wildrunner 2/Champion of Corellan Larethian 2 is basically the start to any build, but from there you can do a few things:

    Wildrunner +4/Champion +6/Fighter 1 (freat!) - basically the simplest and one of the most fun. Get the Spring Attack chain up to Bounding Assault. You get pounce, and the ability to give any weapon +2 attack and +2d6 damage 3+cha times a day for a round. Lots of burst damage if you need, and some control with Spring Attack, and possibly Elusive Target. Keep an Elven Courtblade on you for Spring Attack.

    Champion +6/Tempest 5 - lots of springing around, do decent damage, but lacks the pounce of the Wildrunner 6.

    There are more but I'm running out of time.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    If she plans on taking dervish, levels of scout and swift hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel could give her some nice bonuses when using dervish dance(especially if she take improved skirmish and/or acrobatic strike -also complete scoundrel).

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Tempest is the PrC for Two Weapon Fighting, I'd go with that.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Wow, Wildrunner would be really good for her as well since it's nature-themed, except for the problem that she isn't good or chaotic. (She's TN). Again, she can't really take CoCL because she can't get Combat Expertise due to low INT. (And to think I told her she didn't need it when we were rolling up her stats X_x) Anyway, your class and feat suggestions are very helpful. I'll send these her way. Thanks a lot, guys.


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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    If you have the Spell Compendium, you could just stay a Ranger. Their spells get a serious upgrade, essentially putting Rangers on equal footing with non-optimized Psychic Warriors.

    Disciple of the Eye: Gain Flurry, Fast Movement, and a Fear attack every time you roll to attack. Synergizes perfectly with TWF, since the special ability doesn't require you to hit, and shuriken are thrown weapons. Also, Unarmed Strike counts for Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. Buy a Monk's Belt, and you're set.

    Lion of Talisid: Basically just progresses all of your Druid abilities - but also grants you Pounce and Scent, making your humanoid form worthwhile to fight in.

    Psychic Warrior 1/Psychic Assassin 5: Mind Cripple - anyone who takes Sneak Attack damage also takes 2 points of Int damage, No Save. Most enemies have low Int, and the enemies with high Int need it for spellcasting. With TWF, you should be able to kill or screw pretty much any enemy susceptible to Sneak Attack in 1 turn. Flank with your animal companion, or have a friend cast Greater Invisibility on you.

    Also, why the Druid level? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Well, the player (all my players are beginners) wanted to have some more spellcasting at her disposal. I tried really hard to talk her out of it. >_o Now that she realizes ranger and druid are both redundant and not very synergistic, I allowed her to toss that druid level just so she can make the most out of her build.


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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Another good option for her is to simply stay a ranger. There are not any good TWF focused prestige classes that also increase her spellcasting ability. And if youstay in ranger long enough to finish the TWF feats you get for free you may be better served to simply stay a ranger and keep increasing your spell power. Your rewards for Two Weapon fighting will taper off in comparison to access to your higher level spells anyway.
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    Tempest is the PrC for Two Weapon Fighting, I'd go with that.
    Much of Tempest is wasted if you're not using two different weapons. (for example, a dervish weilding two scimitars wastes much of the potential of the tempest class.) I'm not a huge fan of the class, really.

    Scout and Ranger stack up really nicely if you use the feat that lets them stack for skirmish and favored enemy progression. Of course, scout isn't a Prc.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    If you have the Spell Compendium, you could just stay a Ranger. Their spells get a serious upgrade, essentially putting Rangers on equal footing with non-optimized Psychic Warriors.
    Ive only just started reading SC, but yeah there are some nice Ranger Spells (and here i was just starting to like the Complete Champion's Spelless ranger)
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    She's decided on Ranger 7/Scout 8/Tempest 5. She figured her combat ability will contribute more to the party than her spellcasting.


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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Taking the Swift Hunter feat i hope
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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Keep the level in Druid!

    It gives her access to Wands of the Druid spell Flame Blade.
    Get Empowered, Energy Substituted Flameblade Wands, and activate them while using a Lesser Metamagic Wand - Energy Admixture.
    This will give her a scimatar of flame + 1 other energy (I'd suggest Acid, but Cold and Electricity are also legal) that does (1d8+1/2CL of wand maker)*1.5 Fire and (1d8+1/2CL of wand maker)*1.5 Acid (or other choice) that requires a touch attack to hit.

    The Rod will cost 35,000gp. The Wand 11,250 if CL5 (minimum).

    When you add this to 1+ levels of Dervish it is really nasty.
    Improved Crit also becomes a feat of choice.

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen_E; 2007-08-28 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Hrm, Ranger 11 (CCha thing for bonus feats)/Scout 4/Tempest 5 might make more sense with Swift Hunter, just for the BAB, if nothing else. Use the PHB2 variant to give up the animal companion, and make sure you have:

    *Track
    *Endurance
    *Two Weapon Fighting
    *Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    *Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    *Swift Hunter
    Improved Skirmish
    *Expedious Dodge
    *Mobility
    Spring Attack
    Elusive Target
    Improved Skirmish
    Bounding Assault
    Rapid Blitz
    Combat Tactician?
    Improved Critical (X)?**

    *= Bonus feat.
    **= is flat out better than weapon focus, as it means you can get another +1 on the weapon, which is +1 attack and damage, which is more than +1 attack. Not worth the feat if your caster can do something like a Chained Dolorous Blow, but not all wizards are my kobold <3

    Have your caster-type cast Haste on her a lot. Just Rapid Blitz with Two Weapon Spring Attack, and she'll get four attacks at +6d6 damage and +5 AC if she moves 20 feet. Easy. +7 AC if she moves 40 feet total, counting the springing back.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Re: Tempest.

    It's a trap. Yes, it's supposed to be a prestige class for TWF, but frankly when you add it up it is weak.
    It has only one good save.
    In 5 levels your class abilities give you +3 AC, +2 att, 2 Weapon Spring Attack (this is basicaly the Dual Attack feat, but not quite as good) and the ability to apply a bunch of sub-opyimal feats and Improv Crit to both weapons, if you have them for one weapon.

    Compare this to Dervish (which isn't a power class by any means) -
    2 good saves
    In 5 levels your class abilities are +2 AC, +3 Att/Dam (slashing weapons only) Dervish Dance x3 a day (full attack while moving your speed) can always take 10 when Jumping, dancing and tumbling, Scimitars become Light weapons for all purposes, Movement +10', Spring Attack, Cleave when Dervish Dancing.

    As I said, the Tempest is weak

    Stephen

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Oops, in my build I forgot Weapon Finesse. Um, get rid of Improved Critical for sure, and dual wield Kukris.

    She doesn't have access to Combat Expertise. The Dervish is out of the question.

    Tempest is better than it looks, as it never runs out of Dances and starts doing badly for no reason. +hit is incredible when you're TWFing, the spring attack isn't bad, +ac is good, et cetera.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    She doesn't have access to Combat Expertise. The Dervish is out of the question.
    Ahh, forgot her 8 Int.
    That can be managed. If you allow her to take her 4th level stat increase in Int and purchase a Headband of Intellect +4 she can then take Combat Expertise as her 6th level feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    Tempest is better than it looks, as it never runs out of Dances and starts doing badly for no reason. +hit is incredible when you're TWFing, the spring attack isn't bad, +ac is good, et cetera.
    You're right, it never starts doing badly because it ran out of dances, it never starts doing well. An additional +2 to hit only when weilding 2 weapons is nice but frankly it isn't much from 5 levels of prestige class for the 2WFighter.

    If you want 2WF spring attack just take the Dual Attack feat with a decent prestige class (actually the Dual Strike feat is better because you don't have to use it with Spring Attack). Spring attack is a very limited ability unless you're a surplus fighter. I spring in and make my attack, springing away sucking AoO from the 2 enemies standing next to the person I attacked, and am now standing bo more than 25' away from them, at easy move/attack or charge for them, unless they instead attack the mage you've just left on the frontline.

    +3 AC on a light armoured peson brings them upto Fullplate, if wearing a Mithral Brestpalte. Whoopedo. If AC was so good Sword and Board would be more popular. Sword and board can give you a +7 AC boost.

    A True 2WF prestige class would give pounce ability, something useful to do with those low attack value itterative attacks that rarely hit. It could also give you bonus effects such as covered in the weapon style feats of CW.

    Stephen

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Dual Strike is not good with Skirmish damage. I'm not even sure it should work with Spring Attack, because of the wording...

    AC is incredible for PCs. Using the elite array for NPC's and the standard wealth per level, it's not hard to make a PC that's literally impossible to hit without a natural 20, especially when you're moving 40 feat with Expedious Dodge and Improved Skirmish.

    Oh... and Pounce isn't *that* useful with TWF, as you'll never hit on your iterative attacks anyways - spring attacking well is better, as they'll never full round attack you.
    Last edited by SadisticFishing; 2007-08-28 at 09:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    Dual Strike is not good with Skirmish damage. I'm not even sure it should work with Spring Attack, because of the wording...

    AC is incredible for PCs. Using the elite array for NPC's and the standard wealth per level, it's not hard to make a PC that's literally impossible to hit without a natural 20, especially when you're moving 40 feat with Expedious Dodge and Improved Skirmish.

    Oh... and Pounce isn't *that* useful with TWF, as you'll never hit on your iterative attacks anyways - spring attacking well is better, as they'll never full round attack you.
    Tempest doesn't give Skirmish. If we're talking Scout builds that's another story, and I still wouldn't touch Tempest (Dervish and/or 2HW builds are still better, even before looking at ToB).

    If AC is so incredible why is Sword and Board (the easiest source of high AC) so unpopular? Because as fast as you pump AC I can pump attack, and if you do run into people who can't hit your AC their Mage kills you.

    Pounce does have the weak secondary attacks, but that's a problem with every melee build, but you may note that I addressed the fact that with one level of Druid you have access to wands of Flame Blade, which requiring only a touch attack to hit, completely gets around that problem.

    As for the usefulness of Spring Attack. Sure it avoids been full attacked, but instead sucks a stream of AoOs at their best attack. And given how you've just dismissed the secondary attacks it doesn't really make much sense to claim how powerful it is to avoid them.
    Remember to spring attack someone you must start not adjacent to your target, move towards them, strike, and move away again. While you're immune to AoOs from the target you attack, you open to AoOs from the enemies standing next to you when you start your turn, any enemies adjacent to you when you attack your target, and any other enemies whose threatened zone you pass through. And that still leaves the question as to who's stopping the enemy attacking your mage?

    Stephen

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen_E View Post
    And that still leaves the question as to who's stopping the enemy attacking your mage?
    Well, if you have a mage, what the melees do is really irrelevant now, isn't it? It's not like the affect the outcome in any way. ;)

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Well, if you have a mage, what the melees do is really irrelevant now, isn't it? It's not like the affect the outcome in any way. ;)
    Cold!

    Anyway the mage could be <13th level.
    At that point it still matters.

    Stephen

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    Well, chances are, your mage is stopping the enemies from attacking your mage. And if not, just move in and full round attack for 7 hits, at +4d6 skirmish damage. Make sure to pick up Boots of Sidestepping.

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    Default Re: Good PrCs for a TWF Ranger?

    1) I agree that Tempest is a pretty mediocre PrC, that's not really worth the heavy entry requirement. Scout 8 also doesn't seem to make much sense.

    2) I am a huge fan of Flame Blade, though there's a huge ongoing debate as to whether or not you can apply Power Attack to it. If you rule that it does, then a PrC that progresses her Druid casting a few more levels and a Wand of Flame Blade would certainly be worth it.

    3) If she's not going to be a strait Ranger, she should trade in her spellcasting and animal companion. There are a variety of variants (Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, PHBII, Complete Champion, etc).

    4) Assuming she does pick up Ranger 6, then the feat combo for her is Karmic Strike and Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Karmic Strike gives her an AoO whenever someone hits her. Double Hit allows her to attack with both weapons when she makes an AoO. Though precision damage only applies once, its a great way to have a massive damage output. Best when combined with Claws of the Vampire or something similar.

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