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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Relax, this isn't one of those "What kind of idiot doesn't dis/like the same things as me!" threads. I'm honestly wondering.

    I'm just... kind of baffled by Batman's extreme popularity, when I look closely at the character as he's presented these days.

    Personality: The curse of long-running comic book characters is being portrayed by a lot of different people with a lot of different ideas. But it seems like Batman is typically portrayed as a scowling, grimdark edgelord with terrible manners, who converses with allies pretty much the same way he does the Joker.
    I don't know. Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think of deliberate rudeness as being in any way cool, badass or even rational.

    Underdog status: I keep seeing Batman getting referred to as the "believable hero" or the "relatable hero", in the sense that he is physically a human being who just gets by on extreme dedication. This especially comes up in comparison to Superman. But given all the "Batman can beat X" threads online, which by this point include just about every fictional character out there, surely he's the most overpowered character ever.
    Let's go over his abilities: Master martial artist. Master athlete. Master acrobat. Master detective. Master chemist. Master driver. Master pilot. Master mechanic. Master burglar. Master of stealth. Master of various unconventional weapons. Fakir-like control of his body. Speaks seemingly every language on Earth. Vast trivia knowledge. I could go on.
    Mastering ANY skill is a rare and daunting undertaking. Just how many is he supposed to have mastered during the 10-15 years he spent preparing for his war on urban crime? At least Superman's abilities make sense in context. In this regard, Bats is no more unrealistic than Supes.

    Also, I just don't see the appeal of a character who is popularly considered invincible, even if it is through cunning and technology rather than raw power. Where is the fun in that? Isn't "overpowered" the most common complaint about Superman?

    That just leaves me with...

    Power fantasy. In a way similar to James Bond. "Yeah, million-dollar cars, hot chicks, booze, exotic locations, yeah!"
    But surely a power fantasy gets old after a while? I know I for one can't really go back and enjoy the older JB movies, because their protagonist ultimately had no depth.

    Batman has been hyped up to SUCH an extreme degree, given SUCH an extreme array of skills and gadgets... that I don't see how he remains in any way interesting. My favourite version of the character is the one from the old Diniverse cartoons, as he has a full emotional range, and isn't invincible.

    Thoughts?
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Sure, if you only view Batman through the filter of his most unsympathetic portrayals and most annoying fanboys, then yeah, he's a one-dimensional power fantasy jerk. Except that's not a very accurate description of Batman. That's Frank Miller's darker subversion on the character taken to it's most extreme point where Batman basically is a villain in all but name.

    Batman at his core isn't a scowling psychopath taking out his personal demons on the lower classes of Gotham in the form of terror and violence, he's a man who suffered personal tragedy at a young age and decided to use the resources he was born with to protect the people who don't have those gifts from those who prey on the helpless. He doesn't have Superman's incredible powers so he operates in the shadows instead of the daylight and uses intimidation and misdirection to gain an edge over his opponents.

    Read any good Batman story and you'll see him treating his allies with respect and the people of Gotham with compassion. And yes, he does use his money to fund social programs and provide jobs as Bruce Wayne as well. I'm tired of Batman's critics acting like he never does this.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2018-03-02 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    I always assumed all the stuff he can do was developed during his career meaning unlike Arrow he spent twenty years training and not five?

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Sure, if you only view Batman through the filter of his most unsympathetic portrayals and most annoying fanboys, then yeah, he's a one-dimensional power fantasy jerk. Except that's not a very accurate description of Batman. That's Frank Miller's darker subversion on the character taken to it's most extreme point where Batman basically is a villain in all but name.

    Batman at his core isn't a scowling psychopath taking out his personal demons on the lower classes of Gotham in the form of terror and violence, he's a man who suffered personal tragedy at a young age and decided to use the resources he was born with to protect the people who don't have those gifts from those who prey on the helpless. He doesn't have Superman's incredible powers so he operates in the shadows instead of the daylight and uses intimidation and misdirection to gain an edge over his opponents.

    Read any good Batman story and you'll see him treating his allies with respect and the people of Gotham with compassion. And yes, he does use his money to fund social programs and provide jobs as Bruce Wayne as well. I'm tired of Batman's critics acting like he never does this.
    It also depends on which incarnation you're dealing with. There's the Dark Knight movies, where Batman is a somewhat crazy loner who has an antagonistic relationship with the police much of the time. On the other hand, there's Arkham Asylum Batman, where he continually reassures the guards that as bad as things get they'll be safe, because they have the goddamn Batman on their side.

    Different versions bring different things to the table, making it hard to judge the character as a whole by the entire body of work.

    And then there's Adam West.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Eh, it's really just that he serves as a power fantasy for teenage boys.

    To be entirely fair to the character, competence porn, or showing characters who are at the absolute apex of their extremely-broadly-defined "fields", is a pretty common thing. Just about every procedural is comprised of the absolute bestest, most genius attorneys, forensic pathologists that also crack shots on their city's S.W.A.T. Team, or starship "scientists" who are masters at geology, botany, forensic pathology and particle physics at the same time. Batman isn't really more than your typical procedural crime-drama crew rolled into a single character.

    But that only explains the mechanics of his character, not his popularity. And his popularity rests on the fact that he answers the insecurities and anxieties of his audience, who get to live vicariously through him. Teen guys, the audience he's typically written for? Are insecure about how to perform power, masculinity and sexuality. Their power is still climbing, but if they ever got into a fight with a full-grown man, they'd get wrecked. If they ever tried to hit on a full-grown woman, they'd be laughed out of the room, and they know it.

    Batman just allows them a power escape outlet for their fantasies, as there's absolutely nothing Batman can't do. When he wants to, he can woo honeys without trying, but it's also not beholden to them, because of his deep. brooding. cause. In a fight, it doesn't matter who's bigger and stronger; Batman will always win. He's a jock, who is also read every book. And unlike that "Boy Scout" Superman (note that this is invariably the term used to describe Clark, and how infantalizing the term is for a 30+, Pulitzer-Prize-winning reporter just because he happens to be really nice), Batman can be rude and harsh and insulting to other people, and they just have to take it, because he's Batman.

    Anything that a stereotypical 17-year old male would be thrilled to act upon without fear or hesitation? If you were to Venn Diagram those things with the list of skills that Batman has mastery of, it would basically be a set of concentric circles. And that's really what it boils down too.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Sure, if you only view Batman through the filter of his most unsympathetic portrayals and most annoying fanboys, then yeah, he's a one-dimensional power fantasy jerk. Except that's not a very accurate description of Batman.
    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    [Unsympathetic portrayal about how he's a one-dimensional power fantasy jerk]
    Well, that was fast.
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, that was fast.
    Lmao, indeed! I'll give my thoughts on Batman and why I like him later when I have more time.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, that was fast.


    The question was "What is the appeal of Batman these days?" The question isn't "What is the appeal for the most sincere, deepest comic-book fans these days?"

    If you live in a community where everyone you know sincerely, deeply loves comic books in general, and Batman in particular, hey, great for you. I am one of maybe three people in my circle that have even seen an episode of Batman: The Animated Series or The Justice League. And if you ask my crowd who their favorite comic book character is, they too will say "Batman". Their lack of knowledge of the character will not stop them from saying Batman appeals to them.

    And if you ask them why, they will say that he's "serious" and "relatable". Which is nothing more than buzzwords that they picked up when comic books first started to be taken seriously back in the 90's, back when they were taking their cues from comic book fans.

    Who were all teenage boys who preferred dark and gritty power fantasies.

    I do not see why my answer is, in any way, a dismissive or insulting take on the character. I just refused to implicitly No True Scotsman the audience down to purists who can debate the various qualities between the Keaton Batman and the Conroy Batman and the Arkham Asylum Batman. There are more fans of Batman than the limited number who can recite "Epilogue" by heart.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    The question was "What is the appeal of Batman these days?" The question isn't "What is the appeal for the most sincere, deepest comic-book fans these days?"
    Yet instead of answering "what is the appeal of Batman these days," as An Enemy Spy did, you yourself openly admit that you decided to instead answer "what is the appeal of Batman amongst McStabbington's circle of friends?" You claim to eschew the True Scotsman argument in one breath while in the next claiming that your personal experience is representative of the whole.
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    . . .Yes. Yes, I am by definition limited to, and an authority upon, the attitudes and values of the people I have met, and can claim no expertise over the attitudes, values and opinions of people who I have not yet met.

    What do you want, man? By the standard you've just laid down, no one can speak on the subject unless changing attitudes towards Batman are the subject of their doctoral thesis. Admittedly, that isn't me.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    . . .Yes. Yes, I am by definition limited to, and an authority upon, the attitudes and values of the people I have met, and can claim no expertise over the attitudes, values and opinions of people who I have not yet met.

    What do you want, man? By the standard you've just laid down, no one can speak on the subject unless changing attitudes towards Batman are the subject of their doctoral thesis. Admittedly, that isn't me.
    Again, An Enemy Spy put forth a very reasonable response, and five bucks says he doesn't have a doctoral thesis on it. Not to mention the fact that it's a pretty basic concept that claiming to represent a collective based on your personal experience doesn't really work; if you lived in Peeleevania, and were asked "why is President Al so popular," responding with "well, everyone I know voted for Bob for President, so I don't even see how Al won. And if someone argues with me, I can just claim that I can only speak for what I have personal experience with, it's not like I have a Ph.D. in Peeleevanian Political Science" would very obviously be a ridiculous answer.

    Of course, you could also create a false dichotomy between speaking only from personal experience or spending years of scholarly work on a subject. Whatever floats your boat.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-03-02 at 05:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    You mention James Bond, well let me argue that Batman may have multiple reasons / appeals that it appeals to with its audience.

    But one of the appeals is the exact same thing as Archer (The FX show) appeals to, the importance of man the individual and its interplay with mankind's creation which is the collective society and the interface layers between man and society. What is my "place" in society, why do non optimal outcomes occur in society, etc.

    What I am arguing is best done not by me explaining what I mean by the man<=language=>society and about philosophical arguments for structuralism and post structuralism. Instead it is best explained by someone else, aka a person on youtube explaining the philosophy of Archer and why we see so many language jokes in archer.



    Note the channel literally has a dozen or so videos related to Batman, and other characters of the Batman series, the movies, the director, and so on.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, An Enemy Spy put forth a very reasonable response, and five bucks says he doesn't have a doctoral thesis on it. Not to mention the fact that it's a pretty basic concept that claiming to represent a collective based on your personal experience doesn't really work; if you lived in Peeleevania, and were asked "why is President Al so popular," responding with "well, everyone I know voted for Bob for President, so I don't even see how Al won. And if someone argues with me, I can just claim that I can only speak for what I have personal experience with, it's not like I have a Ph.D. in Peeleevanian Political Science" would very obviously be a ridiculous answer.

    Of course, you could also create a false dichotomy between speaking only from personal experience or spending years of scholarly work on a subject. Whatever floats your boat.
    How about you let An Enemy Spy speak for himself? He can speak for himself, and he isn't saying anything. Jeivar, the guy who started the thread, can also speak for himself, and he isn't saying anything. The only person speaking is you, and you, personally, are being incredibly insulting right now. You are singling me out when I tried to respond in good faith, and rather than honestly responding to my response, you sit in the corner making snarky comments that insult my attempt to contribute. If you don't want a particular answer or response to someone else's question, how about you start your own threads where those are already excluded from consideration?

    Who died and made you the arbiter of what is and is not an appropriate response to this thread, Peelee?

    To whit, I said that whatever fans might feel about Batman, the general pop-culture consensus around the character leaves out the nuances of the character, and relies heavily on the James-Bond-ian power fantasy. That's not what the character is, and that's not what the comic book fans might find like about the character, but that is the attitude of people who have never read a comic, but might pick out a Batman film for one of the five films they see every year because he is that big an intellectual property. And that is as much an answer to Jeivar's question as An Enemy Spy's answer.

    To which you responded not by analyzing what I said, or treating it with the least amount of respect, but instead by trolling me about how oh, I'm only limited to my experience, and by golly, my experience is clearly inadequate. The appropriate response is quite simple: who do you think you are? Don't put words in the thread creator's mouth. Don't put words in other poster's mouth. Don't arbitrarily decide for yourself what is, and is not, a worthy response in a thread that is not yours. And definitely don't insult my intelligence or my willingness to contribute just because it wasn't a response that you wanted. You don't get to decide that. You're not the mod. You're not the thread creator. And don't exclude me from using my own experiences as a valid grounds upon which to speak.

    I have every right to speak here, same as you.
    Last edited by McStabbington; 2018-03-02 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: What was the appeal of Batman in those days?

    Well I watched the Adam West TV series because.... well there just wasn't much to watch, there was "The Monkees', "Lost in Space", and "Star Trek", and that was about it, when "The Planet of the Apes" and "Logan's Run" TV series were on (not to be confused with the movies of the same name), they were usually broadcast after my bed-time, otherwise it was cartoons, and Hogan's Heroes as I tried and failed to be able to follow any of the plots of "Mission Impossible", or "The Avengers", but "The Avengers" did had the super cool John Steed and Emma Peel (Olenna Tyrell to you youngsters), so watchable despite not making any sense to me.

    The Michael Keaton films had cool visuals, especially the one with Michelle "Ladyhawk" Pfeiffer, and Danny Devitto, and so did the animated series in '92, which also had some neat stories (I especially liked the one with Mr. Freeze).

    As for the comics, I got a book of comic boom origin stories in '73 and Batnan's (and the introduction of The Joker) was the most memorable to me, but I didn't read a lot of the '70's ones (I was more into reprints of "Weird Fantasy" and "Weird Science" plus "Conan" and "Warlord").

    I leafed through "The Dark Knight" bur frankly it was too much of a mirror to the real world, and I already heard too much gunfire most months, and I never bothered with the Dark Knight movies, because if I'm in a Noir mood I want it straight not mixed.
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    I do not see why my answer is, in any way, a dismissive or insulting take on the character. I just refused to implicitly No True Scotsman the audience down to purists who can debate the various qualities between the Keaton Batman and the Conroy Batman and the Arkham Asylum Batman. There are more fans of Batman than the limited number who can recite "Epilogue" by heart.
    Yeah, this doesn't describe me even a little bit. Heck, I haven't even seen a Batman movie more recent than The Dark Knight Rises. My comic book experience of Batman is from reading whatever they had on the shelf at my local library and watching Linkara videos. Not a comic book purist in the least bit and I take offense to being characterized as some kind of comic book snob.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2018-03-02 at 07:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    The thing I like about Batman is just that he's human. Not an alien, not an elf, nor cyborg, nor god, nor gelatinous cube. Yet Batman can still face these other creatures and can often defeat them. To me, it is reassuring (even if it is in a highly unlikely fantasy setting) to know a story where the mortal managed to defeat godly enemies or save godly allies. Even if it's through luck, technobullplop, or generous guesses at what a human can do from the writer, but it gives me a glimmer of hope that I can deal with things that seem impossible to me.

    I also find the flexibility of interpreting Batman to be entertaining. You can see him as a vaguely benevolent psycho like Nolan or Miller, or see him as an honest person who does what's right even when it is blatantly ridiculous like in the 60s show or The Brave and the Bold. It's just fun to see how many answers people have to the question of: "How does a dude in a bat costume fight crime?"
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Nolan's Batman isn't a psycho. When does he ever act psychotic?

    "What were you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone's as ugly as you?! You're alone!" That's a Batman who believes that people are basically good, and he's proven right by the people on the ferries who don't kill each other to save their own skins, and at the end he's willing to make the choice to sacrifice his own reputation because that's what the people of Gotham need. A true Grimdark movie wouldn't have had a scene like that.

    I'm just really tired of the notion that just because a story has a dark tone then that means it's nihilistic and hopeless. In each movie Batman is given the choice to rise above the darkness or let himself fall into it and every time he chooses to rise above and be the hero.
    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2018-03-02 at 07:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Yeah, this doesn't describe me even a little bit. Heck, I haven't even seen a Batman movie more recent than The Dark Knight Rises. My comic book experience of Batman is from reading whatever they had on the shelf at my local library and watching Linkara videos. Not a comic book purist in the least bit and I take offense to being characterized as some kind of comic book snob.
    With respect, I was neither responding to you, nor was I attempting to describe you. If anything, I regarded your original response as perfectly legitimate, self-contained, and not something I could really build on.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    No True Scotsman the audience down
    Batman isn't Scottish he is Gothic!



    Can we get back to Batman again, please?



    But to add what I said before, but let's expand it. Batman is a person living in a world of superheroes. Now what do I mean by Superhero? Well first lets define the term.

    A Superhero is a person who has superhuman abilities, that are simply beyond what humans are capable. Contrast this with a human who has peak hero abilities. An example, so pretty much the limits of human biology for running is.

    • 15 miles per hour for long distance running. Effectively you are olympic level if you can run a 4 minute mile for long distance running, 4 mins mile is 15 miles per hour. The fastest marathons (26.2 miles) races by humans are in the 12 mile per hour category which means they ran the 26.2 miles in 2 hours and 10 mins or less.
    • 20 miles per hour for short distance running. 20 miles per hour means you will cover a 100 meters in 11.1 seconds. The fastest 100 meter ever was Usain Bolt with 9.58 seconds and thus 23.35 miles per hour.


    Anything faster than these speeds are not peak human abilities, instead of super human. For example Captain America is Super Human in strength but more Peak Human in speed. (That said there are many comics where Captain America has speed feets of twice the numbers I listed above.)

    As soon as you are start running at 30 miles per hour, or start flying on your own, and so on you are no longer peak human and are now superhuman.

    ------

    So what does Peak Human have to do with Batman? Batman is supposed to show the limits of what a mortal man can do. He is not realistic, as an individual, no human can do all of the things but if he is written as most people have written him he should only have abilities similar to what is possible if you were to find at least 1 human on the normal earth that is capable of doing these things, then Batman should be able to do that. He is the measuring stick of what is possible in a world that has lots of superhumans for that is the world of DC and even the world of Gotham. Batman is not a realistic individual but he is supposed to show what is possible for humanity in a composite individual.

    Now Batman regularly does superhuman things with the age of gadgets, machines, and so on, but even these things are supposed to have limits. With a few thousand dollars you can get a car that can go 60 miles per hour, and a with a few billion dollars you can get a fast "bat" car that can go 100 miles per hour or 200 miles per hour but even then we are still dealing a world with limits.

    The problems that Batman is supposed to face either with individual villains (super villains) or societies (cults, mob, super villain armies) are supposed to be threats greater than what Batman can handle.

    1) With "group threats" (mob, cult, armies) what is supposed to happen is that not even one "perfect" man is not enough. It is supposed to illustrate we need collective action to solve these problems, you need a bat family, or a police force, or an army and so on.

    2) With "super villain threats" Batman is a foil to show that even with super powers you can still defeat these "super humans" by fighting orthogonally and not in a direct way. And to remind people that powers are great but they are not universal panaceas to all the problems in the world.

    -----



    Batman is a byronic hero. He is the mirror which reminds society of al its flaws but it also is the person who reinvigorates society because only society can solve the problems of society a byronic hero can not.



    The byronic hero can't fix all the problems, he just can't. He may be charismatic, he may be peak human or even sometimes super human, but he still has limits and this lifesyle is ultimately destructive.



    But while the byronic hero is ultimately self destructive, it can remind people of things greater than the self which is the collective. And thus the byronic hero is both tragedy but also reinvigorates the traditional, the stale, the bleak society.

    Now there are other types of heroes who challenge the impossible, but byronic type heroes such as Batman are often used for social commentary. Many of the more famous batman stories are in the end morality plays and that is why people love them, even if their type of morality is not the traditional form of morality. They tell a story, where people felt they learn something either about the individuals or the society these people inhabit and they feel it is some ways applicable to real life.

    There is hope at the end of this darkness, we just have to wait for it and keep on hoping.

    ------

    Now there is another type of batman story that people love which has no "reversal at the end of the arc", that the end of the arc is just bleak, grimdark, edgelord, etc. Some people really love those stories but they are often usually less popular and usually side stories not connected to the main canon. Let a particular fandom loves these stories and are quite vocal about their love.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2018-03-02 at 07:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    The thing I like about Batman is just that he's human. Not an alien, not an elf, nor cyborg, nor god, nor gelatinous cube. Yet Batman can still face these other creatures and can often defeat them. To me, it is reassuring (even if it is in a highly unlikely fantasy setting) to know a story where the mortal managed to defeat godly enemies or save godly allies. Even if it's through luck, technobullplop, or generous guesses at what a human can do from the writer, but it gives me a glimmer of hope that I can deal with things that seem impossible to me.
    Now see, this is where I find a disconnect with Batman because he's 'human' in the same way that Superman is 'human'. Batman has done and is capable of things that actual people just aren't. The number of fields that Batman has 'mastered' is just baffling and the same might be done in crime shows and whatnot, but its just as baffling in those instances as well.

    So when people say they enjoy Batman because he has no powers or because he's human, I'm kind of just left scratching my head because he is, in his own way, just as alien as say...Superman or Beta Ray Bill. This isn't to say people shouldn't relate to Batman for these reasons or that they shouldn't find the idea of a 'human' hero standing up against godlike enemies reassuring/entertainment, its just that I don't particularly and find it baffling.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I also find the flexibility of interpreting Batman to be entertaining. You can see him as a vaguely benevolent psycho like Nolan or Miller, or see him as an honest person who does what's right even when it is blatantly ridiculous like in the 60s show or The Brave and the Bold. It's just fun to see how many answers people have to the question of: "How does a dude in a bat costume fight crime?"
    Now this I can really get behind...now I certainly have my favorite interpretation of Batman (the animated cartoon Batman for the record, even if I prefer other incarnations of other characters in the Batman mythos. And, to a degree, Arkham Batman who is a distillation of various interpretations of Batman into its own figure) but Batman is just one of those characters that authors feel like they can go wild with how to portray him and it is damn fascinating to see what people come up with. I think part of that reason is because he is the human/'relatable' hero so his motives and personality are easier to figure out. My favorite way to think of Batman is a man dropped into a hall of fun house mirrors...except most of those distorted reflections and images are real people trying to do horrible things for their own reasons.

    There's a lot of juicy story material there in just how much of Batman you can see in his villains and bouncing his personality off of those similarities and differences. This is one of the reasons why I find his rogues gallery so fascinating but without them...I probably wouldn't find Batman that entertaining if I'm being honest. Batman works best as part of an ensemble cast, even if that cast are his villains, like the Bat-Family or the Justice League because on his own...he feels like an inherently pitiful, even if incredibly self-sacrificing for the good of others, figure but a big cast of colorful people gives him crucial context.

    I honestly wish that people got really in-depth to other interpretations and views on more comic book characters, I was really sad when I found out the comic book game that Tell Tale was doing was Batman rather than Superman because Batman feels like taking the easy road story-wise and the Man of Steel is just as good a source for drama and story-telling but its often left untapped for 'who can beat up Superman' type stories and 'can Superman actually stop this force' which...is fine but doesn't cover some of the more engaging stories I feel could be told with him.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    You are singling me out when I tried to respond in good faith, and rather than honestly responding to my response, you sit in the corner making snarky comments that insult my attempt to contribute. If you don't want a particular answer or response to someone else's question, how about you start your own threads where those are already excluded from consideration?

    Who died and made you the arbiter of what is and is not an appropriate response to this thread, Peelee?
    When you post on a forum, people are allowed to critique what you said. I "singled you out" because one person called out a specific type of interpretation as a bad argument (which I agree with), and then you made that exact type of interpretation. If you feel that I have insulted you, then I apologize; that wasn't my intention. If, however, you think i have seized the means of production and declared myself totalitarian dictator of what is an appropriate response in a thread, or I am just sitting in my mom's basement waiting for your every post so I can attack you, feel free to state your case to the mods.

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    To whit, I said that whatever fans might feel about Batman, the general pop-culture consensus around the character leaves out the nuances of the character, and relies heavily on the James-Bond-ian power fantasy.
    See, if you actually believed that was the general pop-culture consensus, then I would simply debate the point with you, as I disagree. However, you yourself admitted that you shaped your opinion based solely on your circle (which I assume is a relatively small group of friends and acquaintances) which allows me to point out that your personal experience with a limited pool very likely hardly qualifies as representative of the general population. You can't open the door and then complain when I walk through it.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Personally, I respect the "costumed detective who refuses to kill" version of Batman, even if he isn't my favorite character or anything think his other interpretations are just ridiculous and that he is basically a victim of his own success: people want him to be badass so much so as to keep up with other badasses that they stretch his abilities beyond all reason. and eventually this backlash here will spread and we will return back to basics without all this stupidity.

    It honestly sounds like the OP has a problem with Batmeme. I hate Batmeme as well. Batman is a good, Batmeme is horrible and should die in a fire, because the internet ruins things through memetic over-exaggeration until they're warped beyond recognition.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Batman is so popular because he is, in many ways, the most malleable of the comic book heroes. You can do anything from Adam West camp to the darkest grimdark with him, and it doesn't necessarily feel out of place or out of character. So not matter what type of story you prefer, you can find Batman stories that fit your tastes.

    Sure, with a lot of comic book heroes, a lot "depends on the writer", but for the most part, with other heroes, some of the more extreme portrayals just feel "wrong".

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    I'll preface this by agreeing with Lord Raziere on the difference between Batman and Batmeme. I like the good guy Batman that fights crime to make the world a better place.

    For me, he represents hope that trauma doesn't have to destroy you and you can overcome terrible loss. I also love his daring and his mastery of fear. When I see him dodging Darkseid's Omega Beams, I'm reminded that he was once in Joe Chill's line of sight. What can an eight year old boy do to save his life against a career criminal with a gun? Nothing. Little boy Bruce Wayne against Joe Chill is like Batman against Darkseid, except Batman has reacted to that traumatic experience and trained to handle a situation like this now. Instead of being forever terrified from his encounter with Joe Chill, he has overcome it and now faces even greater dangers to protect and defend others.

    Finally, I love the technological aspect. I see him as the future of humanity, using cutting edge technology to do the impossible. He can't fly and he can't exist in the vacuum of space, but he can still adventure in space and join the JL at the Watchtower. He can't catch up to missiles in flight and grapple them out of the sky, but he can build satellites that can shoot them down. He is an example of us, as we advance technologically to do things we never could before.

    So if you separate him from the memes, there is a lot there to appreciate and admire and respect I think.

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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    And yes, he does use his money to fund social programs and provide jobs as Bruce Wayne as well. I'm tired of Batman's critics acting like he never does this.
    People are cynical because it never seems to do any good - nor really can it, since we need a neverending supply of goons so he and the various Robins can break their arms and legs, and Arkham can't be effective either since Batman's villains are the most marketable aspect of the character after the outfits and vehicles.

    Having said that, I do think the negative/edgelord/hypercompetent portrayals of Batman - "Batmeme" is a good word - overshadow the positive and nuanced ones to a fair degree. They do exist; I'm not a big Batman fan myself, but even I enjoyed the TAS portrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Why I like Batman:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWHHsdE_oQg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJ47V2pnUw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xbbpH-20ak
    https://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/Yes+...f14f4274a.jpeg
    https://source.superherostuff.com/wp...mon-grundy.jpg
    https://i0.wp.com/farm7.static.flick...f_b.jpg?zoom=2
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/21...c84d3e95ac.jpg

    Yes, he's a power fantasy. Yes, the concept is childish. Yes, no one could master all the thousands of skills or be half as smart as Bruce. Yes, he has been in some exceptionally bad stories. I mean, wow. In one he calls a kid who just saw his parent's die retarded. I'm not joking.

    But he's a fun character with exceptional depth if you get a good author. A character that is dark and brooding and yes even an ******* at times. But one who still tries to work toward the better future. Still tries to be the best he can be. To be the best version of himself he can be. Not quite the glowing paragon of goodness that is Superman. But something just a smidgen more relatable.

    And he has one hell of a rogues gallery. I mean seriously, best in the business.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Yes, he's a power fantasy. Yes, the concept is childish. Yes, no one could master all the thousands of skills or be half as smart as Bruce. Yes, he has been in some exceptionally bad stories. I mean, wow. In one he calls a kid who just saw his parent's die retarded. I'm not joking.
    Yeah, that's the Frank Miller version. He also burns some criminals alive and then has sex with Black Canary while their corpses smolder in the background. It's really bad.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    People are cynical because it never seems to do any good - nor really can it, since we need a neverending supply of goons so he and the various Robins can break their arms and legs, and Arkham can't be effective either since Batman's villains are the most marketable aspect of the character after the outfits and vehicles.
    The justification I recall is creeping corruption among the dudes that are supposed to oversee the charities/mental Asylum. I particularly recall a story where the Arkham directors cut down in the number of guards so they can give themselves bigger bonus.

    Which is why Batman is doing it wrong. It's not enough to throw money at such projects, he needs to make sure they're being properly run. But that takes time and Bruce Wayne will rather getting high cracking his knuckles against desperate citizens whose only hope of feeding their families is working for the Joker instead of boring review of bureaucracy paperwork to make sure his money isn't being spent to buy somebody's ferrarri.

    Speaking of which how much money do you think Batman spends in his bat-toys again? All those bat-suits, bat-cars, bat-bikes, bat-planes, that he destroys and replaces in a daily basis? Instead he could basically outbid every Ghotam criminal when it comes to hiring people.

    Also I wouldn't mind so much if, say, the villains cunningly escaped after each episode and went underground, performed crimes in other cities or pulled a Lex Luthor and just got themselves really good lawyers (heck Two Face is one himself, so I could see him running a side business of getting other batman enemies released).

    But when the Joker escapes for the 126681th time from the same place and walks right back to Ghotam, I would expect somebody to ask "hmmm, maybe we should throw him in another place from where inmates don't escape every 5 seconds" or "hmmm, maybe we should get some inspectors to go check if things are being run properly".

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    But when the Joker escapes for the 126681th time from the same place and walks right back to Ghotam, I would expect somebody to ask "hmmm, maybe we should throw him in another place from where inmates don't escape every 5 seconds" or "hmmm, maybe we should get some inspectors to go check if things are being run properly".
    Both of those things have happened. Repeatedly. I remember one where Joker in this new inescapable prison decided to turn all the other villains into Jokerized versions and basically destroyed the place because he could.

    And really, are we going to go picking apart the comic setting again?

    We all know that Gotham isn't realistic. We all can figure out that outside of specific Gotham ending events (which in fairness occur rather frequently) Bruce would be better off spending his time elsewhere.

    But the conceit of the story is Bruce is Batman. It's like pointing out that Superman breaks the laws of physics.

    No ****.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

    It honestly sounds like the OP has a problem with Batmeme. I hate Batmeme as well. Batman is a good, Batmeme is horrible and should die in a fire, because the internet ruins things through memetic over-exaggeration until they're warped beyond recognition.
    I do think thats a good way of putting it. I think in general i liked Batman a lot more before the internet really arrived.
    But when Darkseid is crashing though town he should not be doing anything that got him into sight of a living god, or god forbid in melee range of him. He should he be whispering steps of plan "push Darkseid though a boomtube" to the members of the JLA busy fighting him, or discretely be busy sabotaging the portal enemy reinforcements were comming though.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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