Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

[2D8HP]

Does the Joker actually have that much of a kill count in main continuity?.....

Truthfully I don't read much modern comics, but on Christmas day 1973 I received a big book of superhero "origin" stories from the '30's and '40's, among which was a reprint of the first appearance of "The Joker", which I remember pretty clearly, and

Spoiler: the Joker was a murderer from the beginning

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[Cheesegear]

I think the appeal of Batman, is that it was named after the founder of Melbourne, John Batman. John Batman is an extremely problematic individual, and only just last year, it was brought up that the name of the electorate should maybe be changed, mirroring similar things happening in the U.S. But, Batman is quite notable in the fact that he bought the land, even if the people at the time, didn't actually realise that they were even selling.

People objected to the change, because part of the appeal of Batman, was that despite being founded in 1903, was that almost 4 decades later, an extremely popular comic book character had the name 'Batman', and several years into the comic book character's legacy, it has become quite humorous to the modern generations, that in Australia's Parliament, there is a Seat of Batman.

"The House recognizes the Speaker for Batman." ...It's funny every time.

I wasn't aware that this forum knew anything about Melbourne local politics.

[Peelee]

I think the appeal of Batman, is that it was named after the founder of Melbourne, John Batman. John Batman is an extremely problematic individual, and only just last year, it was brought up that the name of the electorate should maybe be changed, mirroring similar things happening in the U.S. But, Batman is quite notable in the fact that he bought the land, even if the people at the time, didn't actually realise that they were even selling.

People objected to the change, because part of the appeal of Batman, was that despite being founded in 1903, was that almost 4 decades later, an extremely popular comic book character had the name 'Batman', and several years into the comic book character's legacy, it has become quite humorous to the modern generations, that in Australia's Parliament, there is a Seat of Batman.

"The House recognizes the Speaker for Batman." ...It's funny every time.

I wasn't aware that this forum knew anything about Melbourne local politics.

I knew there was a Batman, AUS, but I was unaware of the Seat of Batman. My days is even better now that I do. Thanks!

[Sapphire Guard]

Truthfully I don't read much modern comics, but on Christmas day 1973 I received a big book of superhero "origin" stories from the '30's and '40's, among which was a reprint of the first appearance of "The Joker", which I remember pretty clearly, and

Spoiler: the Joker was a murderer from the beginning

Show

Spoiler

Show

Sure he was, but that's still just one overly theatrical murder. Have we reason to believe that the Joker is overall a bigger threat or has a higher kill count than the likes of Two Face or Scarecrow?

There's also a Batman university in Turkey somewhere. "I have a degree from the university of Batman."

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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Sure he was, but that's still just one overly theatrical murder. Have we reason to believe that the Joker is overall a bigger threat or has a higher kill count than the likes of Two Face or Scarecrow?

There's also a Batman university in Turkey somewhere. "I have a degree from the university of Batman."

Well, I can think of at least one "university" that sounds more ridiculous.

[Peelee]

So, funny story, I was perusing the wiki entry on laconic phrases, and near the end came across the following:

During the Battle of Arnhem, Walter Harzer, commanding the near 16,000 strong 9th SS Panzer Division, sent his batman to the massively outnumbered 740 British paratroops holding the north end of the bridge to "discuss terms of surrender". The paras commander, Johnnie Frost replied "Sorry, we don't have the facility to take you all prisoner."[citation needed]

[Sapphire Guard]

Yup, that's a word for a personal servant. Baldric from Blackadder Goes Forth is technically Batman.

[Dienekes]

Spoiler

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Sure he was, but that's still just one overly theatrical murder. Have we reason to believe that the Joker is overall a bigger threat or has a higher kill count than the likes of Two Face or Scarecrow?

There's also a Batman university in Turkey somewhere. "I have a degree from the university of Batman."

Old continuity, Joker's kills were numbered in the thousands when he went on court. Current one, I don't know.

[Cheesegear]

I knew there was a Batman, AUS, but I was unaware of the Seat of Batman. My days is even better now that I do. Thanks!

Batman isn't a town that you are the mayor of.
Batman is a voting district where someone is elected to the House of Representatives (Lower House). Thus, the Speaker/Seat for Batman.

Again, "I speak for all of Batman when I say...", again, it's never not funny. That's the appeal.

As the founder of Melbourne, Batman was a pretty big deal.
Batman Street, Batman Avenue. Batman Park, Batman Hill. Batman Station, etc.
Seriously, how does that get old?

[Bohandas]

Spoiler

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Sure he was, but that's still just one overly theatrical murder. Have we reason to believe that the Joker is overall a bigger threat or has a higher kill count than the likes of Two Face or Scarecrow?

IIRC he kills a few more people by the end of that comic

EDIT:
Anyway the appeal of Batman, to me, is as an excuse to put the Joker in comics and films

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay...but the most effective way of fighting those real world problems are really dry and boring. Not to mention something Superman isn't suited for considering he isn't a billionaire that can spend money to affect policy and laws or fund social movements.

Again, see War on Crime. And I'm pretty sure Superman could make a few trillion dollars just by hauling back one of those metal-rich asteroids and divvying up the pieces for ground-based mining operations. Or patenting a select few pieces of kryptonian technology. If Superman doesn't have money, it's basically because he doesn't want any.

Also, again, see the very earliest Superman comics. They literally consist of nothing but Superman fighting real-world problems with hilarious levels of well-intentioned overkill.

[Lacuna Caster]

-Superman doesn't take squishy expendable sidekicks in bright colors along.

Yeah, to be fair, Batman should really really not be hitting the streets beside anyone under the age of eighteen.

Comparing Gotham City to Metropolis kind of highlights the problem I'm talking about though, because Superman restricts his activities to Metropolis for entirely arbitrary reasons. I mean, sure, go ahead and make out that Batman is crushingly inept by comparison- doesn't that make a pretty strong case that Supes ought to be sparing the fifteen minutes it would take him to subdue Bane, Croc, Clayface or Scarecrow? Why does Batman even exist in this world?

[Peelee]

Also, again, see the very earliest Superman comics. They literally consist of nothing but Superman fighting real-world problems with hilarious levels of well-intentioned overkill.

OK, if we're going to dig up old Superman comics, virtually any result will be hilarious.
OK, so the best ones are Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen comics, but still.

Spoiler: Oh, Superman.... when will you learn?

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[Lacuna Caster]

OK, if we're going to dig up old Superman comics, virtually any result will be hilarious.

I did stipulate well-intentioned overkill. He's a bit of a goon and he doesn't exactly have perfect foresight, but he is drawing attention to real issues and his heart is in the right place. And... that's what got the character started, after all.

(One thing I love is that one of his first strips has him arraigning a war-profiteering congressman(?) in a perfect reflection of the prevailing isolationist sentiments of the time. That's right, Superman- the archetypal nazi-punching-comics-guy- didn't think 1939 america should get involved in foreign wars!)

[Sapphire Guard]

OK, if we're going to dig up old Superman comics, virtually any result will be hilarious.
OK, so the best ones are Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen comics, but still.

Spoiler: Oh, Superman.... when will you learn?

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Hahahahahahahahaha.

Old continuity, Joker's kills were numbered in the thousands when he went on court. Current one, I don't know.

Fair enough. But when I think of Joker, his stock in trade seems to be more elaborate theatrical stuff than widescale threats, his more widespread plans seem to fail or result in immediate consequences. Joker's most notable moments are things like

Spoiler

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Barbara, Jason, Nate Patton, Sarah Essen

, not the kind of wide ranging threat that many other Bat rogues can bring to bear. He's good at hurting Batman, but in terms of 'why don't you kill the Joker?', the answer is 'he's not the biggest threat, so it would just be revenge'

[Bohandas]

metal-rich asteroids

Fixed that for you :D

[lowfyr01]

Hahahahahahahahaha.



Fair enough. But when I think of Joker, his stock in trade seems to be more elaborate theatrical stuff than widescale threats, his more widespread plans seem to fail or result in immediate consequences. Joker's most notable moments are things like

Spoiler

Show

Barbara, Jason, Nate Patton, Sarah Essen

, not the kind of wide ranging threat that many other Bat rogues can bring to bear. He's good at hurting Batman, but in terms of 'why don't you kill the Joker?', the answer is 'he's not the biggest threat, so it would just be revenge'

I think what makes Joker work is simply his changing motive. One time he creates Joker fish to make money of the patent the next he simply wants to give Gotham one last smile by putting his poison into the water supply. But even with his more outlandish plans, he kills people.

And regarding his threat the multipart story from the 90s animated Superman series, showed that someone like Luthor underestimated him the first time, but after Joker nearly killed Superman and used Luthor weapons to take large chunks out of Metropolis it showed that it is understandable that even people with powers fear the Joker.

[Man on Fire]

Honestly, Batman is boring. His appeal is that he has one unique quality - bringing out the best from other, more interesting characters, particularly those in the Batfamily. Batwoman, Orphan, Spoiler, all four Robins, Signal and others all shine when you have a writer who can hadle their relationship with Bruce well.

[Sapphire Guard]

Of course he kills people, every Batman villain kills people. But is he more dangerous than the likes of Ra's, Bane, or even Ivy/Scarecrow? I can't think of a story where he racks up a large kill count and gets away with it, there have been alternate continuities where he pulls off something big, but usually he ends up dead by the end of the story any time he succeeds on that scale.

[AMFV]

Honestly, Batman is boring. His appeal is that he has one unique quality - bringing out the best from other, more interesting characters, particularly those in the Batfamily. Batwoman, Orphan, Spoiler, all four Robins, Signal and others all shine when you have a writer who can hadle their relationship with Bruce well.

No, I would say his unique ability is that he can successfully rise to any kind of challenge without compromising his moral integrity. At least when properly written that is.

[Telonius]

Of course he kills people, every Batman villain kills people. But is he more dangerous than the likes of Ra's, Bane, or even Ivy/Scarecrow? I can't think of a story where he racks up a large kill count and gets away with it, there have been alternate continuities where he pulls off something big, but usually he ends up dead by the end of the story any time he succeeds on that scale.

I'd say he's more dangerous to Batman than any of those other characters, precisely because Batman (and what Batman represents) is usually his ultimate target. The Joker has kills, but they're largely collateral damage. Almost all of his capers are intended to corrupt for corruption's sake. Out of any of them, he's the only one that has a chance of getting Batman to not be Batman. The only other character I can think of who came close to doing that was the Sewer King.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'd say he's more dangerous to Batman than any of those other characters, precisely because Batman (and what Batman represents) is usually his ultimate target. The Joker has kills, but they're largely collateral damage. Almost all of his capers are intended to corrupt for corruption's sake. Out of any of them, he's the only one that has a chance of getting Batman to not be Batman. The only other character I can think of who came close to doing that was the Sewer King.

Bane and Ra's could make good stabs at that. But I agree. I think being portrayed as the ultimate Bat villain hurts the character a bit, though.

[Peelee]

Bane and Ra's could make good stabs at that. But I agree. I think being portrayed as the ultimate Bat villain hurts the character a bit, though.

I think Ra's is more the ultimate Batman villain, though. All the other ones, Batman can potentially stop. He won't kill them, but if he can stop them for long enough, they'll eventually end, one way or another. Ra's? Dude's functionally immortal. Batman can stop him for a time, but when Batman's gone, Ra's will still be around. Batman is a speedbump to Ra's' plans. Well, except the plan for Bats to take command of the League of Shadows.

[kevindean]

If you read The Court of Owls ark then you'll see a different side of Batman. I liked him before New 52, but after this ark i fell in love with him. Snyder did an amazing job of working on Batman.

[Psyren]

As per usual, Bob sums it up for me:



The common rebuttal is that Bruce tries all that stuff and it doesn't work - but when you look at Bruce's bank account, which has been inflated from his old-money rich beginnings to Stark Enterprises I-can-afford-a-country levels today, it just rings hollow with lots of folks. And so you end up with endless piss-takes about how Batman must secretly be evil or secretly not that smart after all, if beating up desperate and mentally-ill henchmen in alleyways himself every night is what he keeps having to come back to.

[deuterio12]

As per usual, Bob sums it up for me:



The common rebuttal is that Bruce tries all that stuff and it doesn't work - but when you look at Bruce's bank account, which has been inflated from his old-money rich beginnings to Stark Enterprises I-can-afford-a-country levels today, it just rings hollow with lots of folks. And so you end up with endless piss-takes about how Batman must secretly be evil or secretly not that smart after all, if beating up desperate and mentally-ill henchmen in alleyways himself every night is what he keeps having to come back to.

It's even sillier when you consider that sometimes world-threatening super villains show up like Darkseid and then batman pulls one of his power armors, punches/outsmarts the eldritch abominations from outer space and their minions that give even superman trouble, then Batman goes right back to "struggle" against normal humies.

[Lord Raziere]

well here is the thing: do we want superhero noir batman, or do we want super-rich fights aliens Batman?

Cause the way to make sure superhero noir batman makes sense is to take away his money. make him have to improvise all his tools and do things more old-fashioned way to fight crime and defeat the supervillains. its the reason why most noir protagonists are strapped for cash: if they were rich enough to actually change anything in their city, they wouldn't be going out night after night doing gumshoe work and fighting criminals themselves. though maybe an alternate universe where Batman is more pure noir hero would be great to see: Bruce Wayne, Private Eye by day, homemade improvised Batman by night.

if you want space superhero Batman to make sense, you just have to accept that Gotham is a solved problem by now, that he ain't gonna be doing his dark gritty noir schtick anymore and that he is just going to be a particularly broody and brainy action superhero working with other heroes like it.

problem is, DC wants to have their cake and eat it too...... and are doing it very poorly by doing it with the same character. Because lets be honest, they have Robins and Nightwing and other such people to be an alternate Batman or a bunch of other such superheroes who can be a gritty down to earth noir superhero if you really wanted to do it that way. you could totally have your cake and eat it too if you just separated the two images of Batman into two actual characters with different focuses, but DC doesn't even try, because apparently Batman sells like hotcakes but Robin apparently doesn't sell as well. even though Robin/Nightwing being the down to Earth noir guy would be a good solution while Batman takes care of the big alien and magic stuff.

[Psyren]

Agreed. If you're going to have street crime and gangsters in Gotham still be the focus, let Robin/Nightwing handle that.

As above, I compare him to the likes of Tony Stark, T'Challa and Reed Richards. They're probably just as rich (particularly the former) and just as gifted as Bats if not more, but stopping petty criminals and gangsters was never really their thing. Marvel slyly sidestepped the problem by creating a whole stable of B-Tier heroes like Daredevil, Luke Cage, Punisher, and Ghost Rider that can do the "show up in alleyways nightly because the cops are useless" thing. Equally important, they kept some of them (like Punisher) from being tied down to a single city. Iron Man is not flying over any city every night looking for muggers, he has way bigger fish to fry than that. And an Iron Man cartoon or game where he or Reed did that stuff would just feel completely comical.

This is the reason the Arkham games take place in a universe where Batman isn't as rich as three Elon Musks, and where there is no Justice League to create this level of dissonance. But the movies and comics don't have that luxury, because Superman has to be there and therefore everything else DC has to be there.

[Lacuna Caster]

To be fair, when Batman goes after low-level muggers, he's usually trying to 'work his way up the food chain' to the mob bosses and their political cronies. And canonically, Wayne Enterprises spends a great deal on civic philanthropy.

But yeah, if he's somehow running with the League on a regular basis it should be clear that he's moved past that phase in his career.

[Beleriphon]

What's the appeal of Batman these days? The same appeal the character has always had. At their best Batman stories are crime drama interspersed with cool action scenes and fights, all lead by a character that does involve a nod and a wink at the audience. Batman is not heartless, or without humour, some of the best Batman stories involve showing warmth and caring for his friends and family. At their worst, Batman is really Batjerk. The real appeal I think for Batman fans is that the character concept can carry a story, and more than that Batman has some of the best rogues gallery, so there's that as well.

Each ofBatman's rogues represents some dark aspect of the human psyche. Joker is the pure anarchy that a human mind can possess, Two-Face the duality of life, Mr. Freeze is both tragic love and the lack of emotion. That doesn't mean there aren't some dingus characters in Batman's rogues gallery, but I would certain say that in general it has the best of them. The only other villain that I would even say comes close is Lex Luthor, but specificalliy the newest versions of the character where he has very human motivations.

This is the reason the Arkham games take place in a universe where Batman isn't as rich as three Elon Musks, and where there is no Justice League to create this level of dissonance. But the movies and comics don't have that luxury, because Superman has to be there and therefore everything else DC has to be there.

The Arkham games actually make it pretty clear Bruce Wayne is one of the wealthiest people in the world, and Arkham Knight goons say several times that shooting at Batman is nearlyi pointless, but they shouldn't even try with "the other guy in a cape", which is a sly reference to Superman.