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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Telepathy allows you to connect to only creatures that have a language...
    Really? Huh. I always assumed that you could telepath with a cat the same way you'd talk to one (ie, ineffectually but technically possible).

    That's excellent news. The major issue is stuff like holding a wand -- not swinging a hammer -- so it sounds like the Official Biologist™ ruling would be that many creatures can use magic items just fine, even if they can't use normal weapons.
    Bear in mind that I'm a biologist, not a thaumatologist. I'm not sure how fine of motions you need to use wands without blowing them up.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Really? Huh. I always assumed that you could telepath with a cat the same way you'd talk to one (ie, ineffectually but technically possible).
    Feel free to just look it up: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi....htm#telepathy
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Bear in mind that I'm a biologist, not a thaumatologist. I'm not sure how fine of motions you need to use wands without blowing them up.
    Blowing them up counts as using them, and requires hands.

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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Arcane Ooze


    I'll say one thing which is going to dictate this thing's LA all by itself: 15 ooze RHD. That alone sentences this thing to -0 with little hope of recovery. Of course, the other parts of this thing aren't helping either.

    For starters, there's its ability scores. As is the case with most oozes, it's got nonexistent intelligence, good (but not great) strength/constitution, and abysmal everything else. Its sole damaging attack is a slam that deals a small amount of bludgeoning damage and a small amount of acid (said acid can't be used against non-fleshy creatures, to further worsen it). It can't see stuff more than 60 ft. away, and even its description acknowledges how it's pretty much useless beyond that range.

    Constrict and improved grab are probably the best part of this thing. On the off-chance you actually hit something, you could possibly restrain it long enough for your caster friend to throw a Disintegrate at it.

    Speaking of caster friends: if those are in the party you're actively weakening it, rather than merely being useless. Spell Siphon causes arcane spellcasters within 60 ft. of you to lose random spells of their highest level. Now, while making that evil archmage lose their Gate or Wish is obviously not without its use, the fact that it cripples your own party makes it unusable. Even in a party without arcane casters, is this really the kind of ability worth sacrificing 3/4ths of your build for?

    Finally, arcane oozes are immune to magic, which would be useful if they were dangerous enough to become the target of enemy mages. It comes with two caveats: acid spells heal the ooze (HP is probably the only thing it doesn't lack), and electricity magic makes it move faster as if it were affected by Haste (note that it doesn't gain any extra attacks or such, it just speeds up).

    -0 LA is the only possibility here, unless you want to make something that locks your party out of playing arcane casters and is outclassed by any half-decent melee build.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    That one is so bad it makes me wonder if we need to start tracking a king-of-the-hill style position for 'Worst Choice for PC.' -0 all the way.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    That one is so bad it makes me wonder if we need to start tracking a king-of-the-hill style position for 'Worst Choice for PC.' -0 all the way.
    That'll be tough to arbitrate once we get to the epic level monsters.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    -0, and I think no further discussion is needed. Also, while not particularly dangerous, the Con and pile of HD would make Spell Siphon interesting as part of a combined attack wave-if you can get the Ooze in range for a few turns but give the group bigger worries, DC 25 Fortitude is a little much at CR 9 to throw at Arcane casters; might need to find a use for that.

    Lessee...at ECL 9, with most Arcane casters having weak Fortitude; +3 base, good chance of a +2 item, maybe +1 Con if they did not dump for Dex. If they dumped Con to +0 or skimped for a +1 resistance item, they would be stuck trying to roll a natural 20 every round not to lose a spell and heal the Ooze. Potentially nasty, if the Ooze was not completely awful in most other respects.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-04-19 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Telepathy allows you to connect to only creatures that have a language, and Mindsight detects non-languaged creatures just fine.

    You'd be ignoring or re-writing the rules.


    The rules-legal hardline stance to invalidate my theoretical wrangling would be that an ability named Telepathy is required to use Mindsight, and Ambush Drakes lack an ability with that name. But they don't lack telepathy, and Mindsight does NOT require the ability to communicate with a target.



    That's excellent news. The major issue is stuff like holding a wand -- not swinging a hammer -- so it sounds like the Official Biologist™ ruling would be that many creatures can use magic items just fine, even if they can't use normal weapons.

    It's nice to see a less-binary opinion on digits.
    I think that having a grasp appropriate for using and being able to get enough of a grasp to move an item are two different things. Probably.
    Especially if we're talking about an item where use involves aiming or other directional/targeted effects.

    This is an issue where I believe we should err on the side of conservatism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    That'll be tough to arbitrate once we get to the epic level monsters.

    "Ah, yes. I would love 128 vermin hit dice and some moderately powerful poison. That sounds great."
    Yeah. It's really hard gauge the suckitude when you're dealing with large numbers of crappy RHD like vermin and animal.

    That said, triple digit RHD of any kind requires rather significant features and abilities in order to not be -0.

    I'm pretty sure most of the ELH is going to come in at -0, except for the templates.

    --

    Concur with -0 for the Arcane Ooze.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Aww, c'mon guys, this thing is totally redeemable, anything is fine with a few levels of wi-- ... uh ... crap.

    Yes, LA -0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I agree that no discussion is needed to cement the rating as -0.

    Just because I haven’t read all the way through the other threads, are there any INT — critters who haven’t ended up as -0 (or some equivalent, like -0*)? Do we have some consensus as how to handwave around that if the rest of the package is worth playing? Or is being truly mindless generally considered a dealbreaker? I know about the index, but I don’t know offhand which critters are INT — beyond the obvious stuff in MM1.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-04-19 at 02:10 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I think that having a grasp appropriate for using and being able to get enough of a grasp to move an item are two different things. Probably.
    Especially if we're talking about an item where use involves aiming or other directional/targeted effects.

    This is an issue where I believe we should err on the side of conservatism.
    Does "conservatism" mean bias against non-humans? (Not sarcastic -- it can mean exactly that in Shadowrun, for example, or against non-humanoid-bodied people in Eclipse Phase.)

    When making rules for PCs, my opinion is that it's best to err on the side of awesome.


    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Concur with -0 for the Arcane Ooze.
    Arcane Ooze might be appropriate for a Barbarian / Forsaker.

    Verdict: LA --, which is the more honest spelling for "LA -0".

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Verdict: LA --, which is the more honest spelling for "LA -0".
    I'd argue there's some LA -0 creatures that aren't completely unplayable. Most low-HD creatures are part of that category: they as a chassis are objectively underpowered, but throw enough class levels on and you won't see much difference with regular PCs. Picking the LA -0 race is still a suboptimal choice in this situation (hence the -0 LA), and the race itself does little for you, but the resulting character is worth playing.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I agree that no discussion is needed to cement the rating as -0.

    Just because I haven’t read all the way through the other threads, are there any INT — critters who haven’t ended up as -0 (or some equivalent, like -0*)? Do we have some consensus as how to handwave around that if the rest of the package is worth playing? Or is being truly mindless generally considered a dealbreaker? I know about the index, but I don’t know offhand which critters are INT — beyond the obvious stuff in MM1.
    So far the assumption has been that you can get rid of the mindlessness as a prerequisite to playing one. A few have playable LAs: the smaller animated objects, Gelatinous Cubes, the smaller scorpions and spiders, and Cadaver Golems all managed to earn +0 or higher LA.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Verdict: LA --, which is the more honest spelling for "LA -0".
    It already lacks a listed LA. Part of the point of these threads is to assign LA, even if it remains unplayable except in the most forgiving of games thereafter. While I agree some monsters will still come out as usually unsuitable for PCs, that's what "LA -0*" is for. It denotes that the creature takes special consideration and the DM should look at it before allowing it. Incidentally, that's my vote. I think most (if not all) monsters with the "*" so far have had abilities that are impossible to provide proper LA for, but in this case, I think it's fair to say it deserves consideration by DMs based on how weak it is for its ECL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    So far the assumption has been that you can get rid of the mindlessness as a prerequisite to playing one. A few have playable LAs: the smaller animated objects, Gelatinous Cubes, the smaller scorpions and spiders, and Cadaver Golems all managed to earn +0 or higher LA.
    We also haven't gotten to several important rules legal Int improvements for mindless creatures (Sentry Ooze implies giving oozes an animal Int score. I'm sure there are ways to improve that further). We also never assigned LA for Awakening effects as some suggested we should, though the variability on those makes it difficult to do.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2018-04-20 at 02:13 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I'd argue there's some LA -0 creatures that aren't completely unplayable.
    I would actually agree.

    What I disagree with is lumping both the playable and the unplayable into a single category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    It already lacks a listed LA. Part of the point of these threads is to assign LA, even if it remains unplayable except in the most forgiving of games thereafter. While I agree some monsters will still come out as usually unsuitable for PCs, that's what "LA -0*" is for.
    * already has a specific meaning -- "problematic ability which requires modification or DM attention".

    This isn't just a problematic ability, it's a problematic creature. Even without the passive ability to suck the sugar out of the party's pixie-sticks, this thing would be 15 hit dice worth of hot garbage.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    We also haven't gotten to several important rules legal Int improvements for mindless creatures (Sentry Ooze implies giving oozes an animal Int score. I'm sure there are ways to improve that further). We also never assigned LA for Awakening effects as some suggested we should, though the variability on those makes it difficult to do.
    Once a creature has an Int score, you can boost it in the normal ways ("Animals have Int of 1 or 2" seems more descriptive than prescriptive because no rule says what happens when they have more, or less).

    As for LA'ing awakening, I think that is outside the scope of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I thought there was an implied "had" in my second sentence, which would imply that an obvious response to the above would be "Yes, I could have, but I didn't realize I had to".
    And to clarify, there should be a "had" in the above sentence as well.

    Blowing them up counts as using them, and requires hands.

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    Aha, fallacy of composition! Just because one being capable of blowing up wands has hands does not imply that hands are required to blow up wands!


    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    Also, while not particularly dangerous, the Con and pile of HD would make Spell Siphon interesting as part of a combined attack wave-if you can get the Ooze in range for a few turns but give the group bigger worries, DC 25 Fortitude is a little much at CR 9 to throw at Arcane casters; might need to find a use for that.
    Lessee...at ECL 9, with most Arcane casters having weak Fortitude; +3 base, good chance of a +2 item, maybe +1 Con if they did not dump for Dex. If they dumped Con to +0 or skimped for a +1 resistance item, they would be stuck trying to roll a natural 20 every round not to lose a spell and heal the Ooze. Potentially nasty, if the Ooze was not completely awful in most other respects.
    Yeah, that's nasty to use on the PCs.
    This makes me wonder...what would e.g. a human with the one interesting ability of an arcane ooze be worth, LA-wise? It's one ability that you have to base your entire build around, and it basically ensures that your party needs to be split by at least 60 feet (or have warlocks as the only available arcanist), but it's still gotta be worth something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Once a creature has an Int score, you can boost it in the normal ways ("Animals have Int of 1 or 2" seems more descriptive than prescriptive because no rule says what happens when they have more, or less).
    Isn't there something that says they become magical beasts if their Intelligence is increased beyond 2 by a template or something? And there are definitely rules for what happens if it hits Intelligence 0.

    As for LA'ing awakening, I think that is outside the scope of this thread.
    Doesn't awaken give them more animal HD? That seems like it should balance things out.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post



    Isn't there something that says they become magical beasts if their Intelligence is increased beyond 2 by a template or something? And there are definitely rules for what happens if it hits Intelligence 0.
    In the SRD, the Animal type specifies 1 or 2 Intelligence, so each spell/template that can alter one should have a type change as part of the effect. Awaken changes them into a Magical Beast and saddles them with 2 more RHD, and the various templates like Celestial/Fiendish and so on usually default to Magical Beast as well.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Technically, Awaken does not actually specify that it gives racial hit dice. It just says "+2 HD." Hit dice and levels are the same thing, and since the animal is now intelligent, there is nothing stopping it from taking those levels as class levels.

    I doubt that's RAI, though.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    This makes me wonder...what would e.g. a human with the one interesting ability of an arcane ooze be worth, LA-wise? It's one ability that you have to base your entire build around, and it basically ensures that your party needs to be split by at least 60 feet (or have warlocks as the only available arcanist), but it's still gotta be worth something.
    Okay, so. You capture an arcane ooze and put it under the canopy of a living oak tree. Cast acorn of far travel, then have your party's super-sneak plant the acorn on an enemy mage with Sleight Of Hand.

    A bit demanding, but not as demanding as having fifteen hit dice of worthlessness in the party eating up your XP (and arcane spells).
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I know you're already past the Ambush Drake, but I didn't see anyone mention this: WotC realeased a web article with the Ambush Drake's savage progression, which agrees with THe LA+0. http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/fc/20060728a

    Edit: the article doesn't spell this out, but based on the examples it seems the ambush Drake has SR: 9+HD (which counts levels in actual classes).
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-04-22 at 03:07 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Isn't there something that says they become magical beasts if their Intelligence is increased beyond 2 by a template or something?
    Only if the template's writer remembered to add it to the template. No general rule.

    And there are definitely rules for what happens if it hits Intelligence 0.
    Yes, but not what happens to the animal's type even though its Int is neither 1 nor 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Armand


    ...too obscure a reference?

    Anyways: the Armand is the answer to the question nobody ever asked, said question being: 'what if the Dwarven Defender was a race?'. The result is a 5 RHD, small-sized monstrous humanoid with what aren't very impressive ability scores (+6 constitution and dexterity).

    Armands can also enter a defensive stance as a move action, which gives them a sizeable bonus to AC as well as smaller bonuses to attack rolls and saves. Of course, it also restricts their ability to move, making it a very situational ability.

    The creature's other selling points are Stability (mostly negated by them being Small), and a slow burrow speed. The latter is quite rare on humanoid creatures, though, so it's worth mentioning.

    It's obvious that armands aren't exceptionally strong, but I believe they don't require -0 LA. Monstrous humanoid RHD still give full BAB, burrow speeds are exploitable, and Defensive Stance has its occasional use. +0 should be fine.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-04-22 at 02:32 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Armands are really quite bad, but they do seem rather consistent with 3.5 martials. I would never play them at +0, but I don't think they're worth -0. They are at least functional.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Does "conservatism" mean bias against non-humans? (Not sarcastic -- it can mean exactly that in Shadowrun, for example, or against non-humanoid-bodied people in Eclipse Phase.)
    Perhaps a better word would have been "caution", but no, that's not my meaning.


    When making rules for PCs, my opinion is that it's best to err on the side of awesome.
    Well, sure, that works when you're the DM. And, for games I'm in or running, that's what I'd generally prefer, too.
    However, for this thread, we need to be more cautious, because not every DM is going to look at a critter and say, "yeah, it's got hands/equivalent" when it's not clear or definitive one way or the other.
    We have to err on the side of "no hands/equivalent" unless there's a very strong case for them and/or a nearly non-existent case against them.





    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Only if the template's writer remembered to add it to the template. No general rule.

    Yes, but not what happens to the animal's type even though its Int is neither 1 nor 2.
    I'd've sworn there was a general rule about that ... I think it might've been put somewhere sneaky, though. But maybe it was just implied.

    There's certainly room to argue that the precedent, in lieu of an explicit alternative, is that Animals that have their Intelligence permanently raised to 3 or higher have a type change to Magical Beasts. Has to be



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    Armands ... yeah ... they're weird.
    I don't think I'd ever play one.

    They're probably on the weaker side of +0, but still +0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Armands are +0 for sure. Monstrous Humanoid is in the bottom half of RHD but not nearly as bad as what waits at the bottom of the barrel. Net abilities are bleh, stance is not selling anyone without the corresponding X/- DR, and a distressing lack of other grab bag goodies leaves it flavorless. Just barely saved from LA -0 by a natural burrow speed on something that has usable hands, though that is not saying much.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-04-22 at 05:40 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Burrow speed that is potentially useful, no stat penalties, boring but not actively terrible HD, opposable thumbs, natural weapons. Class skills for the HD are poor but not rock-bottom (Spot/Listen/Survival are all useful on their own, even if just those three plus Jump won't let you qualify for a hell of a lot without something else). Defensive stance is meh but might come up now and again on a Crusader or something (or I guess technically a caster, but a caster with 5 non-casting HD is a sad sight). +4 NA isn't overwhelming but isn't totally forgettable. Small size is actually kind of weird given their relatively martial tendencies, but I won't call it a dealbreaker. Standard land speed for a Small critter.

    I agree with +0. They're way suboptimal, but they're not so bad as to be unplayable.

    I mean, if I were actually GMing for someone who wanted to play such a thing, I'd shave off at least a couple of HD (which I suppose means that -0 is technically appropriate here), but compared to a lot of other stuff we've looked at thus far, they're a lot closer to being workable than some other monsters out there.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The result is a 5 RHD, small-sized monstrous humanoid with what aren't very impressive ability scores (+6 constitution and dexterity).
    That would be very impressive if they weren't some of the most useful features of a 5-level build. (Also, don't they have a pretty good natural armor bonus? That's worth something!)
    I'd play an armand at +0, but mostly because I like playing weird characters. Armands would be good for that; they're rather odd but not completely bizarre (just another animal-person) and have a well-defined mechanical role which isn't a common character archetype.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I think +0 is fine. Weak +0, certainly wouldn't disagree with -0 (which is not LA: Unplayable, but rather LA: Some Negative Amount, Depending on If/How Your DM Wants to Adjudicate Negative LA). As a mundane character, your first 5 levels are for qualifying for PrCs anyway, you could do worse than burrow speed and an actual ability. Small size hurts somewhat, but the Dex bonus means that archery isn't off the table, and the defensive stance doesn't require melee. Claws allow it to fight in melee even while wielding a bow, which is nice.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Is the armand not good enough?

    I think LA -0 would be fine, as they'd still be balanced at LA -1 for a tier 3-4 game. That said, they're not super weak, and LA +0 would be fine at tier 5.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I noticed something in the archive list: The Stone Golem is listed as having +0 LA, but in the post about golems it has -0.

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