The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Mike Miller]

The LA-Assignment Thread V...Thousand!

[DeTess]

The LA-asdignment thread V: the -0 is inevitable.

[Covenant12]

Alright guys here's my name suggestion:

The LA-assignment Thread V: Who Shot CR?

Soft spot for this because I heard the actual quote last night in discord.

[Inevitability]

As things are right now, the +0 crowd slightly outnumbers the +1 crowd by 10 to 8 votes. Blackscale lizardfolk will remain a strong +0, it seems.

[Inevitability]

Lizardfolk, Poison Dusk

Probably the last monster that'll be covered in this thread before I make a new one.

Right now, poison dusk lizardfolk are +1, but they lack RHD which makes them surprisingly interesting.

Comparing poison dusks to whisper gnomes gives some interesting info. Ability-wise, poison dusk have two more points of strength (not very relevant for most Small characters), +3 natural armor, two claws, a bite, poison use, Hold Breath, and some bonuses to Balance, Swim, and Jump.

Whisper gnomes have +4 Hide: poison dusk have +5, though the latter ability doesn't function while they wear armor or covering clothing. Both races also have mostly useless Weapon Familiarity with some stuff. Try to remember the last time you used a bola or hooked hammer, please.

The gnomes' advantages are +4 Move Silently, darkvision, some bonuses against specific races, and most importantly the SLAs. They also have way better support.

To me, the poison dusk doesn't seem universally stronger than the whisper gnome, especially at higher levels. Keeping that in mind, I'll assign +0. I'll be honest and admit that it's pretty close to +1, though.

[ViperMagnum357]

Leaning towards strong LA +0 for the Poisondusk. Decent natural AC of +3, net +2 abilities and dumping Charisma (yay), and being a Small sized Humanoid with 30 ft base speed and no Strength penalty is worth something. 2 claws and a bite, plus a tail; while free Poison Use and +12 net bonus on skills are nothing to sneer at, either-even if the other +5 is usually unavailable due to armor or gear. Overall, as you said it does not quite measure up to Whisper Gnome, but honestly not much will that does not bring RHD or LA.

I stand with LA +0, albeit near the top of the curve-solid, through and through.

[Thurbane]

I personally consider Whisper Gnomes an almost OP race at LA +0.

At my table, PDL would keep their LA +1.

In the context of this thread, happy to assign them an LA +0.

[Celestia]

I have never and probably will never make a poison dusk lizardfolk character as is, but at +0 it becomes more tempting. It's arguably on the stronger end of +0, but it is simply way too weak at +1. Nothing it has is remotely close to a class level.

[liquidformat]

So the question then is whisper gnome not a +0 but +1? The Poison dusk is boarder line between +0 and +1 and whisper gnome is equivalent before you get to the SLAs and all the gnome support material. I am a big fan of Poison dusk even as a +1 and it seems to be a step above the planetouched. My one concern would be is it ok to have a level 1 character capable of 5 or 6 attacks?

[Zaq]

I have never and probably will never make a poison dusk lizardfolk character as is, but at +0 it becomes more tempting. It's arguably on the stronger end of +0, but it is simply way too weak at +1. Nothing it has is remotely close to a class level.

Pretty much exactly this. It’s nice, definitely above most boring races, but not “I deserve fewer class levels” nice. I’m comfortable with it as a strong +0.

[javcs]

Strong +0 for the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk.
They're unquestionably good, but they really don't have enough to be worth a full class level.


I think that if one wanted to balance them out fully, they might be worth about a bloodline level, rather than regular LA. But that's beyond the normal scope of the thread.

[Elkad]

I love PDLs. My favorite race.
Yeah, they aren't really specialized at anything, but they are well-rounded and give depth to almost any character.
Everyone wants dex. Everyone wants Con. Everyone wants +3NA. Nobody wants to move slow, or not be able to carry their share of the loot.
Claw/Claw/Bite is fun early on, and a net +10 Hide without spending any points is pretty nice at the early levels as well.
Most people don't want to waste points in Jump and Swim, but you do use them until you can fly, so a bonus is useful. Balance will save your life.

On the standard scale, they are a weak-ish +1, but one I can always get use out of and am happy to play.
If buyoff is on, I'd agree to +1 even in this context.
Without buyoff, their lack of specialization means their abilities disappear into the noise by midlevels, so they deserve the +0.

+0, but if they turn out +1, I'd still play them.

[Nifft]

These little buggers are strong.

They're not so strong as to justify losing a whole class level though.

Verdict: LA +0, totally appropriate in a game with other strong +0 races like Warforged & Whisper Gnomes.

[liquidformat]

I am happy with +0 for Poison Dusk, I am just worried about power creep in here. Also since we have not reviewed Whisper Gnome or Warforged we probably shouldn't be using them as baseline reference...

[Inevitability]

I am happy with +0 for Poison Dusk, I am just worried about power creep in here. Also since we have not reviewed Whisper Gnome or Warforged we probably shouldn't be using them as baseline reference...

Counterpoint: whisper gnome and warforged have been played by many people over the course of many years, and the vast majority of those considers them balanced at +0 LA. You might very well argue they've been reviewed by the community as +0 LAs quite a while ago. Hell, you could even argue they're a better balance point than +0 LA ogres or +1 LA trolls.

[Nifft]

I am happy with +0 for Poison Dusk, I am just worried about power creep in here. Also since we have not reviewed Whisper Gnome or Warforged we probably shouldn't be using them as baseline reference...

Power creep is a legitimate concern, but LA isn't sufficiently nuanced to have a valid application either way.

LA is too blunt a tool to draw these lines.

[Lapak]

How about...

The LA-assignment Thread V: Escape from LA

I love this. If it doesn't win this vote, I'll support it for the next thread.

[Prime32]

I came across the Living Spell discussion from a few pages back, and there's a way to bypass the "area or effect" restriction: Living Glyph of Warding containing the spell of your choice. You can even summon monsters that attack the creature you just struck.

[ViperMagnum357]

Huh. Did we know there actually are WOTC printed spells for awakening Magical Beasts and Oozes, or were we just assuming a broadened scope of Awaken/Awaken Undead? Dragon Magazine 304, which I am trawling for my work on the critical hit handbook. The ooze becomes an Aberration and explicitly loses immunity to mind affecting though, so Sentry Ooze would be preferable if it had an actual LA.

On topic, I vote for this on the upcoming thread:

How about...

The LA-assignment Thread V: Escape from LA

[DeTess]

How about...

The LA-assignment Thread V: Escape from LA

How'd I miss this one? It has my vote.

As for the poison dusk lizards, I'd say it isn't unplayable at LA+1, especially if you can buy it off or the game doesn't go too deep into double-digit levels. At LA+0 it's one of the best-in-slots for roguelikes, beating out most other LA+0 races apart from things like whisper gnomes. I wouldn't call it broken at LA+0, but I personally feel that in most games LA+1 is justified.

[Efrate]

a strong plus 0 with 3 attacks at lvl 1 and good stats, but not worth a class level. nice totemist base.

[Zaq]

I am happy with +0 for Poison Dusk, I am just worried about power creep in here. Also since we have not reviewed Whisper Gnome or Warforged we probably shouldn't be using them as baseline reference...

No one's arguing that poison dusk lizardfolk aren't strong. They're definitely at the upper end of LA +0 in the human/illumian/warforged range, not the elf/half-orc/rilkan range. But they're not so strong that they're balanced when they're a full level behind their alleged peers. That's the problem. LA is a really intense penalty to inflict, and it really needs more justification than "zomg, their stats don't add up to +0!"

If I were trying to balance them for an actual game (and the rest of the party wasn't at the high end of LA 0), I'd consider shaving off a point or two of NA and/or making the stats net out at +0, but honestly, I might not even bother. They aren't that strong.

It's perhaps worth noting that even WotC didn't think that their CR warranted a bump. The example statblocks have a CR 1 specimen with 1 level in Ranger and a CR 4 specimen with 4 levels of Ranger. I know that CR and LA are generally only tenuously linked, but still.

(Also, wonderful WotC consistency on display: the tactics section for the 4th level Ranger says that it uses its Magic Fang spell to enhance its natural attacks, but then it shows that it only gets to prepare 1 spell per day, and that spell is Longstrider.)

[Celestia]

Power creep is a legitimate concern, but LA isn't sufficiently nuanced to have a valid application either way.

LA is too blunt a tool to draw these lines.

Maybe. Ever since I joined this thread, whenever there's been conflict, I've always erred on the side of the lower LA. I feel like as the thread has progressed, I've gotten my way more often now that I used to, but maybe I'm imagining it. Either way, I don't think power creep has had any other significant affect due to what you said. It's hard, maybe impossible, for the thread's perception to get so warped that the balance point drops an entire LA level. I think we're safe.

[javcs]

Power creep is a legitimate concern, but LA isn't sufficiently nuanced to have a valid application either way.

LA is too blunt a tool to draw these lines.

Maybe. Ever since I joined this thread, whenever there's been conflict, I've always erred on the side of the lower LA. I feel like as the thread has progressed, I've gotten my way more often now that I used to, but maybe I'm imagining it. Either way, I don't think power creep has had any other significant affect due to what you said. It's hard, maybe impossible, for the thread's perception to get so warped that the balance point drops an entire LA level. I think we're safe.

Power creep is always a concern, but LA is pretty blunt. I think the largest amount of "creep" we're likely to see is just where in a given LA group something stands. That is, is it a weak or a strong LA +X.

And, in general, I'd agree that erring low is probably for the best, at least, when you're not looking at something with significant (relative to RHD) amounts of racial casting/equivalent.

[RedWarlock]

We're 5 posts away from the next page. Inevitability, get on your next post here.

As for the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, my one thought is, what is the absolute weakest LA +1 (preferably one with 0 HD) we've seen, and how does this compare?

[Elkad]

We're 5 posts away from the next page. Inevitability, get on your next post here.

As for the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, my one thought is, what is the absolute weakest LA +1 (preferably one with 0 HD) we've seen, and how does this compare?

+1 with no HD

Duegar
Drow
Formian Worker
Githyanki
Githzerai
Svirfneblin
Darkmantle

Plus badger and some templates. Is a PDL equal to a Celestial Human? I think not.

Weakest? Duegar probably. SLA Invis and Enlarge, save bonuses, and some decent immunities.

[liquidformat]

Maybe. Ever since I joined this thread, whenever there's been conflict, I've always erred on the side of the lower LA. I feel like as the thread has progressed, I've gotten my way more often now that I used to, but maybe I'm imagining it. Either way, I don't think power creep has had any other significant affect due to what you said. It's hard, maybe impossible, for the thread's perception to get so warped that the balance point drops an entire LA level. I think we're safe.

Hopefully the reason you are getting your way more often is you have a better handle on things now that we are so far along.

While I believe the Poison Dusk is a +0 on the high side I just wanted to throw the power creep out there as it is a valid general concern in this process.

[Celestia]

Hopefully the reason you are getting your way more often is you have a better handle on things now that we are so far along.

I don't appreciate the condescension in your post. Don't look down your nose at me.

[liquidformat]

I don't appreciate the condescension in your post. Don't look down your nose at me.

Sorry didn't mean for that to come off condescending just saying this thing has been going on for years so if you have a good handle on things you would be right more often, hopefully was the wrong word to use there I suppose.

[Inevitability]

Thread V! As always, please do not post in this thread from this point on.
Exactly 1500 posts in this thread, just in the nick of time.