The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[ViperMagnum357]

A decent chassis-for a monster with 7 or 8 RHD. One doozy of a trick-that most level appropriate enemies will be prepared for. Incorporeal by default causes at least as many problems as it solves, and 4 levels before Epic provides virtually no wiggle room. Hard to argue anything past -0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go with -0, unless it's being rated at t4 (its chassis would allow it to maintain +0 at t4). Although daze without much of an action cost is great, I think the fact that it calls out phantasmal killer means that spell's descriptors are carried over, and therefore immunity to mind-affecting effects does counter Phantasmal Facade. Even if it didn't, the one trick is not good enough at ECL 16, even with all the skill points on an incorporeal creature.

[Morphic tide]

So, you're getting something which denies your enemies a round, the level before people get access to literal time stop? Mehhhh. If you weren't spending 16 levels on what's only a relatively neat trick then I might possibly look at a rating that isn't -0, but really. What are you doing apart from a single-round daze or a hard-to-pull-off save or die, which are two-a-penny by level 16? Really now.

It's at-will, even passive. It's a free surprise round every fight, very nearly no exceptions, and a save-or-die on every attack made until a Will save is passed. A Will save that's around a 50/50 chance for strong save level-appropriate monsters. Planetars, for example, have to roll a 12 or higher to pass the Will save to Disbelieve, before which every touch that occurs is a 60% chance of death. This is not a regular save-or-die, this is a save for protection from a save-or-die that happens every single successful touch.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, I don't think you can argue for -0. It's a monster that contributes to pretty much every fight it's in. It doesn't contribute in a particularly conventional way, but it's very much playable. There aren't many classes it can take that build on what it has, so higher than +0 seems unfair.

[Morphic tide]

Yeah, I don't think you can argue for -0. It's a monster that contributes to pretty much every fight it's in. It doesn't contribute in a particularly conventional way, but it's very much playable. There aren't many classes it can take that build on what it has, so higher than +0 seems unfair.

Swordsage 1 gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack, as you're IL 9 and thus eligible for up to level 4 Maneuvers. Another 2d6 Fire per hit some rounds because you can get Searing Blade with the six starting Maneuvers of Swordsage 1. Being Incorporeal means you're able to trigger Sneak Attack much more frequently than normal.

Totemist can get more attacks to use with very few levels to work through saves more quickly as an avenue of expanding what the Phantasmal Slayer actually has. I think, not sure how the stuff stacks.

[ViperMagnum357]

Yeah, I don't think you can argue for -0. It's a monster that contributes to pretty much every fight it's in. It doesn't contribute in a particularly conventional way, but it's very much playable. There aren't many classes it can take that build on what it has, so higher than +0 seems unfair.

The monster's single worthwhile contribution is explicitly a mind-affecting, Fear effect that is also a Phantasm. That means all Undead, Constructs, Deathless, Oozes, Plants, Abominations, and most types of Vermin are immune; as are anything that can wrangle immunity to Fear, MIE in general, or even just Phantasms, like Duergar. While not everyone is running around with Mind Blank or similar effects at ECL 16, they are hardly uncommon.

Also keep in mind you only get the Daze effect on a successful save: if they fail, they become especially vulnerable to the creature's touch but are otherwise unaffected-meaning the only actual effect of a failure is enhancing the awful natural touch attacks, solely for the creature, up to something usable. It hardly 'guarantees' a surprise round, even against entirely vulnerable enemies. Against enemies that are not affected, the creature has precious little to contribute; leaving you with 3/day Ray of Exhaustion, 1/day Waves of Fatigue, and 1/day Feeblemind. On 16 RHD. To get something past the Facade effect on the touch attacks requires a significant investment in precision damage, and even then being a grand total of 2 natural attacks leaves precious little to work with; you can grab Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, but that only brings you up to 5 attacks. By ECL 16, any acceptable TWF/MWF build should be landing much harder hits or just a lot more attacks period.

On the plus side, natural Telepathy saves you a one level dip into Mind Bender, so there.

I am going to firmly stick with -0 LA.

[Celestia]

It's hard to find something with 16 HD that's worth it, and the few things that are only got there through racial spellcasting. I agree with most of the people in the thread. -0 for sure. One trick pony is a derogatory term for a reason.

[danielxcutter]

The Sorcerer got Mind Blank this level and the Wizard already had it for a level at this point. Psions get Personal Mind Blank as early as ECL 13.

Not everyone has it up at this level, but many people will.

Asking the usual question: are they CR-appropriate monsters?

[3WhiteFox3]

-0 for the reasons above. Too many ways to easily counter the single useful ability it has.

[GreatWyrmGold]

People pointing out when PCs can negate the phantasmal slayer's abilities are missing the point. The important question is when monsters can do so, and more importantly, how many do. Obviously, if the DM is creating NPC enemies to negate the PCs' strengths, the phantasmal slayer is more vulnerable to those shenanigans than most. But otherwise...it's a good support ability. The Slayer's big problems are that it doesn't have anything interesting to do after that first round and that it has basically no way to improve itself with class levels.
I guess playing a daze-or-die effect attached to a beefy, incorporeal low-level character could end up as a reasonable approximation of balanced.

[Dimers]

The important question is when monsters can do so, and more importantly, how many do.

All undead, constructs, plants, vermin and oozes, starting at level 1. A smattering of other creatures which can be as low as level 1 (e.g. goblin cleric with Dream domain) but are mostly higher level. But yeah, you'll just join the rogue on the sidelines in a lot of encounters.

[Inevitability]

As 'is the slayer sidelined often' seems to be a significant factor in determining its LA, here's some numbers.

I randomly picked five monsters for each CR from 16 to 20 and checked whether or not they possessed some kind of immunity against fear or mind-affecting effects.

Spoiler: Data

Show

CR 16:
-Battletitan dinosaur (not immune)
-Horned Devil (not immune)
-Jahi (undead, and therefore immune)
-Planetar (17th-level cleric casting lets it prepare stuff like Heroes Feast)
-Zodar (construct, and therefore immune)

CR 17:
-Banshee (undead, and therefore immune)
-Deathbringer (undead, and therefore immune)
-Frost Giant Jarl (not immune)
-Rilmani Aurumach (3/day mind blank as a SLA, so immune)
-Wastrilith demon (not immune)

CR 18:
-Blackstone Gigant (construct, and therefore immune)
-Demonflesh Golem (construct, and therefore immune)
-Ocean Strider (not immune)
-Xerfilstyx Devil (not immune)
-Yuan-Ti Anathema (not immune)

CR 19:
-Century Worm (mindless, and therefore immune)
-Corpse Gatherer (undead, and therefore immune)
-Flesh Jelly (mindless, and therefore immune)
-Ocean Giant (not immune)
-Varakhut Inevitable (construct, and therefore immune)

CR 20:
-Crawling Head (Undead, and therefore immune)
-Deathraven Swarm (swarm without a hive mind, and therefore immune)
-Eldritch Giant Confessor (capable of casting cleric spells that give immunity, but unlikely to do so)
-Gray Linnorm (17th-level cleric casting, so likely to be immune)
-Tarrasque (not immune, but incapable of actually dying from the attack)

Out of these 25 monsters, 12 were outright immune because of types or subtypes, 4 could gain persistent immunity incredibly easily, and 1 could theoretically gain 24/7 immunity but would have to give up a large chunk of power for it. The effects of items or caster support weren't considered here, but each of those would have boosted the number up.

In light of this, I will adjust the LA to -0.

[Luccan]

I think the problem is, when you have one trick, which can be countered incidentally and fairly trivially with a bit of prep, it's probably not worth 16 RHD.

[Nifft]

I think the problem is, when you have one trick, which can be countered incidentally and fairly trivially with a bit of prep, it's probably not worth 16 RHD.

Yeah I think this is where I'm going to stand too.

It is a good trick. But you really do need more than one trick at level 16.

LA -0 for me.

[danielxcutter]

I assume Mind-Affecting abilities in general are very dangerous without a way to counter them? That'd explain why there are so many ways to get immunities...

[ExLibrisMortis]

I assume Mind-Affecting abilities in general are very dangerous without a way to counter them? That'd explain why there are so many ways to get immunities...

Yeah, I think that's about right. A successful dominate monster is way stronger than a successful finger of death, and both of those are strong enough that many "boss-type" encounters are immune or resistant, plus hordes of regular mobs, just to prevent one trick from wiping the board each time. Of course, the game's a bit heavy-handed about immunizing monsters, so we tend to rate down these instant-win-if-they-weren't-immune abilities, but the alternative (of widespread easy-access SoD) is unpleasant, too.

[Celestia]

Yeah, I think that's about right. A successful dominate monster is way stronger than a successful finger of death, and both of those are strong enough that many "boss-type" encounters are immune or resistant, plus hordes of regular mobs, just to prevent one trick from wiping the board each time. Of course, the game's a bit heavy-handed about immunizing monsters, so we tend to rate down these instant-win-if-they-weren't-immune abilities, but the alternative (of widespread easy-access SoD) is unpleasant, too.

It's sloppy game design really. If an ability is so powerful that you feel the need to make half the enemies flat out immune to it, then maybe you just shouldn't have that option in the first place.

[Flickerdart]

It's sloppy game design really. If an ability is so powerful that you feel the need to make half the enemies flat out immune to it, then maybe you just shouldn't have that option in the first place.

Ah, but <important character> in <book or movie that Gygax and Arnerson liked> could <do this thing>, so we have to support <doing this thing> in the game!

[No brains]

It's sloppy game design really. If an ability is so powerful that you feel the need to make half the enemies flat out immune to it, then maybe you just shouldn't have that option in the first place.

Ah, but <important character> in <book or movie that Gygax and Arnerson liked> could <do this thing>, so we have to support <doing this thing> in the game!

Mind control is a thing in many stories as are things that can be described as mindless. I for one appreciate that they thought out trying to hypnotize a robot or download malware into a zombie.

Not to mention that variety is the spice of roleplaying. Sometimes something that can be killed easily is better conquered through coercion. GMs shouldn't let everything look like a nail. Sometimes they should get screwy.

[javcs]

It's sloppy game design really. If an ability is so powerful that you feel the need to make half the enemies flat out immune to it, then maybe you just shouldn't have that option in the first place.

I'm pretty sure it's less a matter of "this ability is powerful, so lots of things need to be immune", and more a matter of "we want X, Y, and Z to be supported, and they fall into this general category, and we also want J, K, and L, to be supported - it just so happens that J, K, and L usually have a mix of immunities to things of the same general categories as X, Y, and Z".
Animated Plants are unlikely to be particularly affected by something designed to directly affect a "typical" mind. Likewise, unintelligent undead are probably not even going to notice something designed to instill fear upon subjects/targets. Constructs aren't usually going to notice or care either.



Plus, I mean, [Fear] and [Mind-affecting] are both things that basically every player will invest resources into getting either resistance (early) or outright immunity(later) to. As would pretty much any intelligent creature aware of the threat such abilities pose that has the resources and opportunity to do so.

[Celestia]

I'm pretty sure it's less a matter of "this ability is powerful, so lots of things need to be immune", and more a matter of "we want X, Y, and Z to be supported, and they fall into this general category, and we also want J, K, and L, to be supported - it just so happens that J, K, and L usually have a mix of immunities to things of the same general categories as X, Y, and Z".
Animated Plants are unlikely to be particularly affected by something designed to directly affect a "typical" mind. Likewise, unintelligent undead are probably not even going to notice something designed to instill fear upon subjects/targets. Constructs aren't usually going to notice or care either.

Okay, that's still sloppy game design, though. The guy who focuses on enchantment spells will either solo the encounter effortlessly or sit on the side counting the ceiling tiles. Either one is terrible. If you want mind control in your game, then find some way to have it always be a viable option without ever overshadowing other possible options.

Plus, I mean, [Fear] and [Mind-affecting] are both things that basically every player will invest resources into getting either resistance (early) or outright immunity(later) to. As would pretty much any intelligent creature aware of the threat such abilities pose that has the resources and opportunity to do so.

That does nothing to help your case.

[Falontani]

Okay, that's still sloppy game design, though. The guy who focuses on enchantment spells will either solo the encounter effortlessly or sit on the side counting the ceiling tiles. Either one is terrible. If you want mind control in your game, then find some way to have it always be a viable option without ever overshadowing other possible options.


That does nothing to help your case.

Someone focusing on the enchantment school has many options available through buffing allies when enemies are immune to enchantment. It is the person that has limited themself to the singular subschool of mind affecting that runs into problems with immunity. This is the same case with nearly any kind of specialist. An evoker has many outlets to use however someone that has pursued fire to the exclusion of all other categories will feel weakened as they begin to face enemies that happen to be immune to fire. Like fire elementals and devils.
The same thing is felt at lower levels for a swordsman without a magic weapon fighting against a ghost. It is imbalanced only when fighting something that happens to be immune to your focused abilities, and then only to you.
Tldr: Specialization is good, however specialization to the exclusion of all else is bad.

[Zaq]

Someone focusing on the enchantment school has many options available through buffing allies when enemies are immune to enchantment. It is the person that has limited themself to the singular subschool of mind affecting that runs into problems with immunity.

I mostly agree with your larger point about overspecializing, but I will point out that there are all of three Sor/Wiz Enchantment spells in the SRD that are buffs rather than ways to do bad things to enemies who aren’t immune to [Mind-Affecting]. You know, for what that’s worth.

[javcs]

Okay, that's still sloppy game design, though. The guy who focuses on enchantment spells will either solo the encounter effortlessly or sit on the side counting the ceiling tiles. Either one is terrible. If you want mind control in your game, then find some way to have it always be a viable option without ever overshadowing other possible options.

I'm not saying it's necessarily good design. D&D was, more or less, intended to encompass a vast spread of possibilities, concepts, themes, and worlds. A fair number of them don't mesh well. And for a significant quantity, the implementation could have been better.

Also, to be fair, if enchantment spells are your focus, well, (1) you should never be entirely dependent on one trick, and (2) as a mid-high level enchanter, you should have mind-controlled minions to beat up those immune to your mind control. Admittedly, the latter has its own problems.

That does nothing to help your case.

I'm not arguing it's good thing. I'm pointing out in a world that works the way the rules describe, getting protection from being mind controlled is going to be a major priority for pretty much anyone/anything who is aware that mind control exists and has the resources to employ countermeasures. For that matter, at higher levels, the protection from mind control that you get from using Mind Blank is in some ways incidental to the protection from being scried on or other divinations.
In a world with mind control, protection from mind control is important.
I'd also point out that it's all or nothing as an encounter, and at CR 15, most or all PCs will have already invested resources towards those immunities.
It's a poorly designed monster, and makes for a terrible PC.

[Celestia]

Someone focusing on the enchantment school has many options available through buffing allies when enemies are immune to enchantment. It is the person that has limited themself to the singular subschool of mind affecting that runs into problems with immunity. This is the same case with nearly any kind of specialist. An evoker has many outlets to use however someone that has pursued fire to the exclusion of all other categories will feel weakened as they begin to face enemies that happen to be immune to fire. Like fire elementals and devils.
The same thing is felt at lower levels for a swordsman without a magic weapon fighting against a ghost. It is imbalanced only when fighting something that happens to be immune to your focused abilities, and then only to you.
Tldr: Specialization is good, however specialization to the exclusion of all else is bad.

I'm not sure how you can possibly defend this. It doesn't matter one bit if there are backup options. I want to play an enchanter. This, I built an enchanter. It is my goal to spend the game doing enchanter things. And then I spend half the game casting evocation spells. How do you not see the problem here? It's exactly the same as a rogue who gets thrown into an undead campaign. Every character should be able to meaningfully contribute to every combat. I have no clue how you can disagree with that.

Enemies with immunities should be occasional gimmicks to catch the party off guard, not the majority of enemies they fight.

I'm not saying it's necessarily good design. D&D was, more or less, intended to encompass a vast spread of possibilities, concepts, themes, and worlds. A fair number of them don't mesh well. And for a significant quantity, the implementation could have been better.

If you admit that it's poor design, why do you keep defending it?

Also, to be fair, if enchantment spells are your focus, well, (1) you should never be entirely dependent on one trick, and (2) as a mid-high level enchanter, you should have mind-controlled minions to beat up those immune to your mind control. Admittedly, the latter has its own problems.

I'm not advocating one trick ponies, I'm advocating that a player's primary character design shouldn't get sidelined in half their battles. An entire school of magic shouldn't be one trick, anyways.

I'm not arguing it's good thing. I'm pointing out in a world that works the way the rules describe, getting protection from being mind controlled is going to be a major priority for pretty much anyone/anything who is aware that mind control exists and has the resources to employ countermeasures. For that matter, at higher levels, the protection from mind control that you get from using Mind Blank is in some ways incidental to the protection from being scried on or other divinations.
In a world with mind control, protection from mind control is important.
I'd also point out that it's all or nothing as an encounter, and at CR 15, most or all PCs will have already invested resources towards those immunities.
It's a poorly designed monster, and makes for a terrible PC.

A game where you feel that getting immunities is necessary is poorly designed. Immunities should be nice bonuses, never a requirement. That's one of the main contributors to the Christmas tree effect.

[Blue Jay]

Enemies with immunities should be occasional gimmicks to catch the party off guard, not the majority of enemies they fight.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, though I feel like it's really hard to surprise players anymore unless you straight-up homebrew all your monsters and NPCs.

If you admit that it's poor design, why do you keep defending it?

I don't think he's so much defending it, as calling for moderation in your criticism.

[Celestia]

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, though I feel like it's really hard to surprise players anymore unless you straight-up homebrew all your monsters and NPCs.



I don't think he's so much defending it, as calling for moderation in your criticism.

That's because there's no new blood in the player pool and has nothing to do with the game, itself.

Oh, I'm sorry. Let me try that again:
The complete failure of 3.5 to balance anything is mildly irritating.

[Flickerdart]

The complete failure of 3.5 to balance anything is mildly irritating.

There's a balanced game hiding in 3.5, that you can get to if you cut out the ridiculous broken stuff. But some of the stuff is ridiculous and broken in a fun, I-can't-believe-I-can-do-that way. "Save or lose" gameplay (and the immunity arms race that goes with it) is not even fun-broken. It's boring-broken.

[Celestia]

There's a balanced game hiding in 3.5, that you can get to if you cut out the ridiculous broken stuff. But some of the stuff is ridiculous and broken in a fun, I-can't-believe-I-can-do-that way. "Save or lose" gameplay (and the immunity arms race that goes with it) is not even fun-broken. It's boring-broken.

I know just what you mean. Building characters in 3.5 is like a fun brain teaser. I've got two entire notebooks filled with character builds of all shapes and sizes because that's one of the things I like most about this game. I just wish I could actually use them in game, but they're all either too broken, too overcomplicated, or both, that no one in their right mind would ever allow them.

You can certainly play a decently balanced game of 3.5, but you have to ignore half of the content and houserule the rest to pull it off. I like this game, but I fully acknowledge that there are some serious problems with it.

[Bavarian itP]

Now I'm confused.

I distinctly remember this thread being about LA-Assignment