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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Looks like a nice template for a Crusader too.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Tainted Raver: Set taint score, but no immunity. Same restrictions to Humanoid/Monstrous Humanoid, permanent Rage is okay, Madness is the usual mixed bag, and moderate fast healing. Keep in mind that this is NOT an undead template-so you get Fast Healing, Rage, Madness, set Taint with no immunity, and that is it. No way is that worth +2 LA; there are already unmodified templates that are far more powerful, and relative to our adjustments here, is not nearly worth +2.

    So, I say weak +1 LA. This template pigeonholes you into a handful of builds, and that LA is contingent on avoiding the worst Taint rolls; bad rolls and you might be barely be above LA +0.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I imagine that someone using the gyrspike would hold the sword bit in one hand and the chain in the other. Awkward, but it more or less works.
    That's pretty much a kusarigama, only with a short sword instead of a kama (kusariwakizashi?). But I assumed from the picture I saw that the gyrspike was one-handed because the chain doesn't seem long enough to wield the way you'd wield a kusarigama.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Tailor-made for an evil sorcadin. That said, at LA +2, it'd put you a full spell level behind, and you would lose your 4th iterative. For a sorcadin, it'd have to be LA +1.

    Moving away from casters, intimidate-focused barbarians will love this template. At LA +2, however, you would only gain +1 Intimidate (due to lost skill ranks), and no bonus to attack rolls (due to lost base attack). I don't think +3 damage and +6-7 (or so) to Will saves will really compensate for the lost HD, class features, skills-other-than-Intimidate (Spot, Listen), and so on. So, once again, it'd have to be LA +1.
    Losing a spell level is potentially worth it, actually. The +6 Charisma gives plenty of bonus slots, while the bonus feats from Taint can give metamagics to help quite significantly, and those bonus slots can plug into optional metamagic variants. People need to actually bother remembering that higher-level spells are rarely needed by intentional design of the game. Losing spell levels impacts tier, yes, but tier is a function of versatility more than power, and trading versatility for endurance is entirely valid as a character choice.

    All things considered, +2 LA isn't unusable, owing to the presence of plenty of things to make up for the disadvantages. At LA +2, you lose rather little with fitting build options. A Sorcadin, for instance, loses out on higher level slots and spells known, but gets a considerable number more lower level slots and multiple feats with which to make up the shortfall, as well as a damn impressive Will save.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Losing a spell level is potentially worth it, actually.
    Yes, but not for +6 charisma, and not on a sorcadin. You don't get enough slots from that, and you need those spells (haste, draconic polymorph, arcane spellsurge--there's always one you need next). An extra +6 to your casting stat works out to +3/4 spell slot of each level (assuming you had enough to get one in the first place). Getting +2 levels of casting works out to six extra slots, of which at least three are of a new, higher level (unless you already had 18th-level casting or better).

    If you're comparing 16th-level casting @ 38 Charisma to 18th-level casting @ 16 + 5 + 5 + 6 = 32 Charisma, the comparison is between 6/10/10/9/9/9/9/7/5/-- and 6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/6/4. That's 74 spell slots totalling 284 spell levels versus 75 spell slots totalling 317 spell levels (counting cantrips as 1/2).

    I think that's enough reason to once more affirm the old rule: Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels!
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Tailor-made for an evil sorcadin.
    I'm pretty sure the proper term is antisorcadin. Or possibly blackguorcerer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    That's pretty much a kusarigama, only with a short sword instead of a kama (kusariwakizashi?). But I assumed from the picture I saw that the gyrspike was one-handed because the chain doesn't seem long enough to wield the way you'd wield a kusarigama.
    That's why I said it would be awkward.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Unholy Scion should be next! This is the template that can theoretically let you play an infant or even a foetus. Now THAT is a challenge for a level adjustment.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Unholy Scion should be next! This is the template that can theoretically let you play an infant or even a foetus. Now THAT is a challenge for a level adjustment.
    What's worse is you get your mother as a minion. Essentially.

    Unholy Scion is one template that the DM caution is made for.

    Edit: The real question is what book is up next? Unholy Scion is the last thing in Heroes of Horror.
    Last edited by javcs; 2018-04-12 at 11:35 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Honestly Unholy Scion is one that I have been waiting for; it is something my Dread Necromancer would make as an heir just before becoming a lich.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Unholy Scion is one template that the DM caution is made for.
    Ironically, it actually does have a playable LA right now.

    Apparently in their infinite wisdom WotC decided that imps and green hags aren't suitable PCs, but being a sentient evil fetus is completely fine.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Ironically, it actually does have a playable LA right now.

    Apparently in their infinite wisdom WotC decided that imps and green hags aren't suitable PCs, but being a sentient evil fetus is completely fine.
    +5, isn't it? AFB, right now.

    I'm not sure about the logic chain behind that decision. Or behind the Unholy Scion in general.

    It's just another example of the dubious nature of some of WotC's decisions.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Ironically, it actually does have a playable LA right now.

    Apparently in their infinite wisdom WotC decided that imps and green hags aren't suitable PCs, but being a sentient evil fetus is completely fine.
    WotC just really loves Dr. Fetus from Super Meatboy. Maybe I'll play a fetus sorcerer with the fiery burst reserve feat and fluff it as summoning missiles.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Unholy Scion... yeah.

    Unholy Scion is legit horror, on several levels -- and since it's in the horror book, I'd argue that it's on point.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    WotC just really loves Dr. Fetus from Super Meatboy. Maybe I'll play a fetus sorcerer with the fiery burst reserve feat and fluff it as summoning missiles.
    Heroes of Horror predates that game by several years though.
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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Heroes of Horror predates that game by several years though.
    Maybe WotC was inspired by some of Edmund McMillen's earlier work? It's a chicken and fetus dilemma.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Heroes of Horror predates that game by several years though.
    Yeah, but what if WotC invented a time machine so that they could steal ideas from the future for their niche appeal game?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Unholy Scion... yeah.

    Unholy Scion is legit horror, on several levels -- and since it's in the horror book, I'd argue that it's on point.
    Oh, it's certainly not out of place (I mean, it'd probably not be too out of place in BoVD, either).

    It's just a little, I don't know ... wtf? Who came up with this?


    Especially when the DM springs a particularly young Unholy Scion on the party. That can just get all kinds of mindscrewy. Very much a niche style of game where it's appropriate to use.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Unholy Scion


    Unholy scions are the result of humanoids (or rarely, animals) being possessed by evil forces while in the womb, causing them to develop a sadistic disposition as well as supernatural powers. Because that's not quite creepy enough, the powers manifest before the child is born, and its mother is unable to do anything about it despite being aware of it all. Oh, and the infant soul is irretrievably consumed and lost in this process.

    That said, I'm going to assume any unholy scions played by people will be at least young adults (or at least, using the stats of one), simply because I'm not aware of any child or fetus statblocks one could apply the template to. It makes it a lot easier to rate, that's for sure.

    First of the template's features are a type change to Outsider with the Native and Evil subtypes. It's all of the FoP-qualifying goodness without the banishment vulnerability, what's not to love?

    Scions also get to add their charisma modifier to AC as a deflection bonus (obviously great), are immune to poison and mind-affecting effects, get SR 10+HD, have some energy resistances, and receive Fast Healing 4. There's also DR 5 (that increases to DR 10 at 12 HD) but it's overcome by magic or good, making it not that useful.

    Less great are the natural weapons (1d4 claws, notable only for being indistinguishable from normal fingers). They don't even get two claws, and apparently can't use it with a one-handed weapon either.

    Ability-wise, the scion's mental scores improve considerably (especially intelligence), as does its dexterity.

    Scions get several special attacks and qualities worth noting. Familial charm is unrateable, because depending on the base creature you either get a worthless commoner or a dire tiger for a companion. Unholy Strike is interesting, and pretty cool against good opponents, but not a major factor (remember, Evil characters are still quite likely to fight more Neutral and Evil opponents than Good ones).

    Finally, there's the Scion's numerous SLAs, which function like a half-fey's or half-fiends: the more HD it has, the more of them it can use. Overall quality of the SLAs is pretty good (Baleful Polymorph, Gate, Major Image, True Seeing, Protection From Good).

    Comparing this template to the half-fiend, it gives a slightly better type, doesn't grant wings, gives a better AC boost, has worse stat adjustments, slightly worse DR, better immunities, and better SLAs. I think +3* is completely okay to assign here, but do discuss.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-04-13 at 12:16 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    What's worse is you get your mother as a minion. Essentially.
    Unholy Scion is one template that the DM caution is made for.
    If I were Inevitability, I'd assume that the Scion's mother wasn't a powerful former adventurer, just a random peasant woman or maybe some lord's daughter with an unhealthy fascination with Abyssal magic. If you don't let the Unholy Scion be the spawn of a demon and an epic-level archmage, it's strictly worse than getting Leadership as a bonus feat (no followers and Mom probably doesn't level up with you).

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Oh, it's certainly not out of place (I mean, it'd probably not be too out of place in BoVD, either).
    It's just a little, I don't know ... wtf? Who came up with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I'm not sure about the logic chain behind that decision. Or behind the Unholy Scion in general.
    I can't explain the +5 LA, but the unholy scion feels like it fits in with the inspirations for D&D's inspirations more than D&D itself.
    There are plenty of medieval stories about demons getting into all sorts of shenanigans with mortals; it wouldn't surprise me if there was some tale of a woman trying to exert sexual agency and getting punished by an incubus, getting saddled with a demon-child who took over her mind until the cuckolded husband destroyed the foul thing (and possibly the mother, depending on how much victim-blaming the author felt like doing).
    I could definitely see a WotC author reading a story like that and going "This would fit perfectly into our new horror sourcebook, if I strip out the obvious misogyny!"
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Unholy Scions: solid SLAs, immunity to mind influencing effects, fast healing, good abilities, and a grab bag of other bits...initial though would be LA +2; good but not great, with enough accumulated bonuses to be very good but petering out at higher levels, when your SR caps and you really start feeling those missing HD. However, there are some real show stoppers in the SLAs-Major Image, Dominate Person, Gate, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, True Seeing without the very expensive components...all easily overlaid by a competent caster, but can be put in the hands of another build entirely while keeping acceptable CL and DCs.

    Overall, I would say strong LA +2. The DR is almost worthless, negligible natural weapons, the mandatory SR caps at HD 25, the Resistances are a curiosity at best, and it still locks you into Humanoid, limiting the potential.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-04-13 at 10:59 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I'm just here to say I've been reading these threads for a while, am a big fan, and was inspired to join these forums on the basis of them alone.

    Pathfinder has the Young template, which might be worth considering for discussing young characters. I'd link it, but I can't due to post count. It's +2 DEX, -2 STR/CHA/WIS, and insane class restrictions most players ignore.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Kinda weird that Charisma takes a hit. Whether Charisma is force of personality or just getting people to do what they want, I'd expect kids to have at least average Charisma. Intelligence, on the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticideprophet View Post
    I'm just here to say I've been reading these threads for a while, am a big fan, and was inspired to join these forums on the basis of them alone.

    Pathfinder has the Young template, which might be worth considering for discussing young characters. I'd link it, but I can't due to post count. It's +2 DEX, -2 STR/CHA/WIS, and insane class restrictions most players ignore.
    Not to be mean, but this thread is covering 3.5 books at Inevitability's discretion. Bringing up other things to rate or doing his job for him is frowned upon and off topic. You can suggest what he should cover next, but that is the extent of our power to choose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Not to be mean, but this thread is covering 3.5 books at Inevitability's discretion. Bringing up other things to rate or doing his job for him is frowned upon and off topic. You can suggest what he should cover next, but that is the extent of our power to choose.
    vaticideprophet's suggestion was an answer to Inevitability's

    simply because I'm not aware of any child or fetus statblocks one could apply the template to
    With that in mind, there's nothing in his post that justifies your insinuation.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    vaticideprophet's suggestion was an answer to Inevitability's



    With that in mind, there's nothing in his post that justifies your insinuation.
    Probably due to tiredness, but it wasn't super obvious to my mind that that's what was being referred to. It seemed more like bringing up something to be rated by the thread. I just remember one time someone else opened with basically the same thing, and went on to do a full LA write up for, wolves I think? It was a few years ago now. I just didn't want a repeat of that happening.

    Also that most of the assumptions have been mostly 3.5, so the jump to PF confused me yet further.
    Last edited by zergling.exe; 2018-04-14 at 03:03 PM.
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    It lets you reload your greatsword.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Hmm... what if I wanted to play a half-dragon unholy scion egg? There are stats for dragon eggs in one of the books, right? If that results in an invalid combo, what about a kobold or lizardfolk egg?

    "He's one bad egg."
    Last edited by No brains; 2018-04-14 at 04:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Hmm... what if I wanted to play a half-dragon unholy scion egg? There are stats for dragon eggs in one of the books, right? If that results in an invalid combo, what about a kobold or lizardfolk egg?
    Seems like it'd be morally easier to Smite an external fetus, with less overall horror invoked.

    The fact that the egg is outside the mother also makes the Mom-inion thing less intuitive than the usual setup.

    Finally, there's a risk that one of the PCs develops a taste for hard-boiled scion, which would just defeat the horror aspect entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    "He's one bad egg."
    That's terrible.

    You're terrible.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Hmm... what if I wanted to play a half-dragon unholy scion egg? There are stats for dragon eggs in one of the books, right? If that results in an invalid combo, what about a kobold or lizardfolk egg?

    "He's one bad egg."
    Humanoid or Animal only.

    Also, that's terrible.


    --

    If I were to allow a child/adolescent in one of my games, I would likely employ the modifiers as developed for the A Game of Thrones d20/Sword and Sorcery supplement from Guardians of Order. Admittedly, for those rules, "Very Young(Below 7)" only has adjustments of "Discuss with the GM".

    But I'd only allow a child as a PC for a small subset of games. Most of which I probably wouldn't be running anyways. An Unholy Scion would be allowable for a somewhat wider set of games, but still, I'd be very cautious about an Unholy Scion PC.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
    No player is ever truly out of ways to surprise their DM.
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  29. - Top - End - #239
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Would people prefer to see MM3 or Tome of Magic next?
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  30. - Top - End - #240
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    On principle, I'd say one of the Monster Manuals, since that'll save ToM to be a change of pace after the MM.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
    No player is ever truly out of ways to surprise their DM.
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