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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    On principle, I'd say one of the Monster Manuals, since that'll save ToM to be a change of pace after the MM.
    I'm not particularly familiar with either ToM or MM3, as I'm much more familiar with either MM2 or Fiend Folio.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I'm not particularly familiar with either ToM or MM3, as I'm much more familiar with either MM2 or Fiend Folio.
    ToM is partly weird monsters that use one of the subsystems presented in the book (shadowcasting, truenaming, and soul binding), and partly weird monsters that are merely thematically linked to said subsystems.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I'd prefer MM3. EPH would be nice, too, but more niche.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    MM3, although Fiend Folio not being an option makes me a little sad (just a little).

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Hmm... what if I wanted to play a half-dragon unholy scion egg? There are stats for dragon eggs in one of the books, right? If that results in an invalid combo, what about a kobold or lizardfolk egg?

    "He's one bad egg."
    That's terrible. And I thought I made bad puns; I co-write/edit an Undertale x Artemis Fowl crossover fic, so bad puns kinda come hand-in-hand with that.

    Also I vote for MM3, though it's a shame XPH isn't a choice.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I vote MM3 with ToM as a follow-up for a change of pace.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Going to second the wishes of an eph one, there are a few templates in there that while undoubtedly strong, don't deserve the la they have and I'd like to see what the giants choose for it

    However MM 3 I believe should come after MM2
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    However MM 3 I believe should come after MM2
    Thing is, MM3 is much better balanced than the MM2, it's got (in my opinion) more interesting monsters, and most importantly I don't need to mentally update everything using the online booklets to make it work in 3.5.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Would people prefer to see MM3 or Tome of Magic next?
    ToM since it'll be short and also rating the Truenamer monsters might be difficult and/or entertaining.

    Are we just skipping MM2 because it's inconvenient to apply the updates?

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    MM3, because it's been a while since we did a Monster Manual
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    MM3, but I second Fiend Folio. And EPH, I suppose.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    MM3 if we are going to do another MM. But I will still keep harping on Dragons of Krynn-relatively short, and the ten varieties of Draconian with numerous class features should provide some good discussion-especially with all ten being effectively subspecies for more direct comparison.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I'm down with MM3 because we just did a weird book, so jumping into another weird book (FF or ToM) wouldn't feel as weird as those books deserve. We must layer blandness and weirdness into a monster manual sandwich.
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    eek Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Yeah, my suggestion of the Young template was for the purpose of rating a child/fetus Unholy Scion. Sorry for any confusion!

    I agree with doing MM3 next.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I think MM3 would be good, but can someone refresh my memory on what silliness I can expect from that book? I seem to recall MM2 had the really goofy stuff like CR20 leviathans and mountain giants that had 4 int and no defense against Int damage.
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I think MM3 would be good, but can someone refresh my memory on what silliness I can expect from that book? I seem to recall MM2 had the really goofy stuff like CR20 leviathans and mountain giants that had 4 int and no defense against Int damage.
    At least three monsters had much better racial casting than their CR in MM2; nothing quite like that in MM3 I believe.
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  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Finally, there's a risk that one of the PCs develops a taste for hard-boiled scion, which would just defeat the horror aspect entirely.
    I mean, how often can you just pick up the Big Bad and cook him? There'd probably be some serious fallout from that down the line, but it would be so worth it just for the unique opportunity.


    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    On principle, I'd say one of the Monster Manuals, since that'll save ToM to be a change of pace after the MM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I'm down with MM3 because we just did a weird book, so jumping into another weird book (FF or ToM) wouldn't feel as weird as those books deserve. We must layer blandness and weirdness into a monster manual sandwich.
    There is logic to this suggestion. Logic I'm inclined to agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I think MM3 would be good, but can someone refresh my memory on what silliness I can expect from that book? I seem to recall MM2 had the really goofy stuff like CR20 leviathans and mountain giants that had 4 int and no defense against Int damage.
    The weirdest thing I can think of off the top of my head would be the living spells. Those could get pretty silly if the right spell was chosen...
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Curiously, I believe that the Unholy Scion does not have a CR adjustment listed. IIRC, anyways.
    If it does have one, I don't remember what it is.
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Ambush Drake


    MM3 it is!

    Behold the delightful ambush drake: first monster of this new book. Its CR-to-HD ratio is somewhat concerning (5:7) but then again it's dragon type so perhaps that'll balance it out.

    Ambush drakes are medium-sized, have bonuses to all physical stats and small penalties to intelligence and charisma (though they're still smarter than, say, ogres), and enjoy +6 natural armor. They have an above-average land speed and a slower, poor, fly speed (still useful for avoiding obstacles and such).

    Furthermore, ambush drakes have a bite that deals dexterity damage (not bad at all), as well as two claws. They have a breath weapon that causes a Slow effect which lasts for 7 turns, giving them a decent debuff. Finally, they get the oddball Telepathic Link, which is largely useless if no other PCs are ambush drakes.

    So what LA to give? Considering the pretty good RHD, the quite useable abilities, and the okay chassis, I feel like +0 can be justified here.
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  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I wonder if the telepathic link thing can be wrangled into Mindsight -- having 30 ft. Mindsight would be pretty spiffy.

    Even without that, it's like a limited Sliver effect, for the other Ambush Drakes in your party: if anyone has immunity to Flanking, then everybody does. If anyone has immunity to surprise, then everybody does. If anyone is special, then everyone is.

    Pity about the Charisma penalty, though the huge +8 Con buff does tend to make up for that, if you're using point-buy. +4 Dex and +6 Str aren't bad either.

    At low optimization, flying is good, the Slow breath is a great de-buff, and immunity to paralysis means you can tank some nasty enemies like ghouls & grell.

    At higher optimization, starting at 7 Dragon HD makes a tolerable prefix for Divine Crusader -> Sovereign Speaker shenanigans, or you could use the good Dragon base saving throws to get into Ur-Priest.

    LA +0 seems fine.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Ambush Drake: Look Ma, no hands! I anticipate saying variations on that quite a bit-no manipulator/grasper limbs is such an awful fate. Solid overall, and seems like, for once, a roughly appropriate CR; solid all round scores/AC, flight, scent, static SR, area debuff, decent poison rider on bites, and the always tasty racial bonus on Hide.

    I am okay with LA +0. It has a solid spread of abilities and a couple of decent attacks, plus the RHD are Dragon; however, it still has 7 RHD and no hands, so the cost is rather steep. The static SR is not winning me over, either.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    +0 works for me. Solid chassis and decent build flexibility in spite of being very physically oriented. Not hard to have a few nifty tricks while still being a melee beast. Fly speed is bleh but there are fixes if I want. An all around solid choice.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Slow is a nice effect, and the duration is solid; mutatis mutandis the same holds for the poison. Poison and breath weapon DC both scale with Constitution, which makes you quite the juggernaut, and goes nicely with incarnum. You get 6 skill points per HD and four good class skills, which is nice, but those four good class skills are also your only class skills, and your Intelligence gets a -4 racial penalty. It might be difficult to qualify for PrCs outside the "ambusher" niche, which does reduce your build versatility even more than the lack of class features already does. For example, Totem Rager seems like a good fit for the ambush drake (good PrC, incarnum doesn't care about low int/cha, adds a lot of utility, scales well with RHD), but it requires Survival and Intimidate, which means you're burning cross-class skill ranks, Intelligence point-buy, or qualifying with additional levels (and it already takes 10 HD to qualify as ambush drake 7/barbarian 1/totemist 2). ToB classes have similar issues.

    I don't think they're quite bad enough to warrant -0 at tier 4--it's viable to focus on pure (melee) combat at that tier. At tier 3, I would call it -0, because it's seven levels without class features, and you can't contribute well enough in certain areas (due to the lack of hands, for example).
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  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Definitely -0. No hands and seven levels without class features is bad, even for melee characters. Difficult to stay relevant when you can't even use magic weapons.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Ambush Drake

    Two people so far have complained about a lack of hands, but honestly that left forelimb sure looks like it ends in a clawed hand, complete with an opposable thumb.

    The monster's text says that it prefers to run on all fours, which means that NOT running on all fours is an option -- so it could also stand upright if it wanted, and that's useful for a PC.

    Is there any rules text which would deny this guy hands? Or is that just an assumption (which appears to be contradicted by the image)?

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I wonder if the telepathic link thing can be wrangled into Mindsight -- having 30 ft. Mindsight would be pretty spiffy.
    I'd say no. Or, if it can be turned into Mindsight, you can only perceive other Ambush Drakes with it.

    Even without that, it's like a limited Sliver effect, for the other Ambush Drakes in your party: if anyone has immunity to Flanking, then everybody does. If anyone has immunity to surprise, then everybody does. If anyone is special, then everyone is.
    While true, an entire party of ambush drakes would be limited.

    Pity about the Charisma penalty, though the huge +8 Con buff does tend to make up for that, if you're using point-buy. +4 Dex and +6 Str aren't bad either.

    At low optimization, flying is good, the Slow breath is a great de-buff, and immunity to paralysis means you can tank some nasty enemies like ghouls & grell.

    At higher optimization, starting at 7 Dragon HD makes a tolerable prefix for Divine Crusader -> Sovereign Speaker shenanigans, or you could use the good Dragon base saving throws to get into Ur-Priest.

    LA +0 seems fine.
    The lack of class features, and limitations on PRC entry is painful. And hands is questionable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Two people so far have complained about a lack of hands, but honestly that left forelimb sure looks like it ends in a clawed hand, complete with an opposable thumb.

    The monster's text says that it prefers to run on all fours, which means that NOT running on all fours is an option -- so it could also stand upright if it wanted, and that's useful for a PC.

    Is there any rules text which would deny this guy hands? Or is that just an assumption (which appears to be contradicted by the image)?

    I'm not sure there's anything definitive behind the no-hands assumption.


    As regards the image ... the left forelimb does appear to have certain handlike features, including a semi-opposable thumb, but the thumb does not appear to have a joint extending beyond the "palm" area, that's just claw, namely the keratin/equivalent, and it's curved - that would also appear to apply to the other fingers/claws/rest of the paw; all of that would combine to significantly limit the useable dexterity. My best guess is that the ambush drake's forepaws are somewhat like a bear's forepaws, moreso than a human's hands.
    In addition, going by the image, the forelimbs would appear to have possibly limited range of motion, and the configuration of the rear limbs and tail would argue against much upright/bipedal locomotion.
    Admittedly, it is a strong possibility that the artist was not aware of whether or not the ambush drake was supposed to have hands/opposable thumbs or not.

    For that matter, if we're weighting the image particularly heavily, the ambush drake would appear to have sight (eyeball location, orientation, and resultant field of vision) more consistent with a prey species than a predator species. And too much surrounding ridges, with the eye set too far into the skull to even provide a decent field of vision.



    The context of that "preferring to run on all fours" bit is in comparison to its flight - specifically "An ambush drake prefers to move about on all fours, only using its undersized wings when necessary." Bolding mine, but it's not support for bipedal/upright locomotion.

    However, there is a phrase in the description that could be used to support having hands - stronger support than the preferring four legs line:
    "While one ambush drake might use an item at any given moment, the pack owns the treasure, and tomorrow another ambush drake might use it."

    It's not explicit, but it can certainly be taken as an implication that they have hands/handlike manipulators to use items.


    Of course, WotC being WotC, the question whether or not the ambush drake has hands/equivalent manipulators or what it has in lieu of such capability, is not exactly a question I expect got much consideration, if any.
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  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I think +0 is fine, decent stat boosts, slow breath weapon and dragon chasis seems appropriate for tier 4.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    LA will be changed to +0.
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  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I wonder if the telepathic link thing can be wrangled into Mindsight -- having 30 ft. Mindsight would be pretty spiffy.
    I'd rule that Mindsight only lets you see creatures you could telepathically connect with, but we're not talking common-sense houserules, so that would probably work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Two people so far have complained about a lack of hands, but honestly that left forelimb sure looks like it ends in a clawed hand, complete with an opposable thumb.
    ...
    Is there any rules text which would deny this guy hands? Or is that just an assumption (which appears to be contradicted by the image)?
    Biologist here! Lots of animals have digits that look a bit like opposable thumbs, and some actually are opposable. Look at bird talons, for instance. However, most of these would not be capable of using tools or weapons; they could hold a hammer, but they couldn't use it against nails (or skeletons).
    Not to mention that the right foreclaw looks an awful lot like the claws of many animals with absolutely no ability to hold things. We have to look at all provided evidence, not just cherry-pick the ones that fit our preferred conclusion.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I'd rule that Mindsight only lets you see creatures you could telepathically connect with, but we're not talking common-sense houserules, so that would probably work.
    Telepathy allows you to connect to only creatures that have a language, and Mindsight detects non-languaged creatures just fine.

    You'd be ignoring or re-writing the rules.


    The rules-legal hardline stance to invalidate my theoretical wrangling would be that an ability named Telepathy is required to use Mindsight, and Ambush Drakes lack an ability with that name. But they don't lack telepathy, and Mindsight does NOT require the ability to communicate with a target.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Biologist here! Lots of animals have digits that look a bit like opposable thumbs, and some actually are opposable. Look at bird talons, for instance. However, most of these would not be capable of using tools or weapons; they could hold a hammer, but they couldn't use it against nails (or skeletons).
    That's excellent news. The major issue is stuff like holding a wand -- not swinging a hammer -- so it sounds like the Official Biologist™ ruling would be that many creatures can use magic items just fine, even if they can't use normal weapons.

    It's nice to see a less-binary opinion on digits.

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