Treasure: non-random awarding & spending

[oxybe]

So I'm potentially going to run a 2nd ed thing. Still ironing out some details, but one of them is that I dislike random treasure... in truth I dislike a lot of randomization stuff, but some, like random encounters, I can easily work around.

But 2nd ed's DMG doesn't really give much idea what a good ballpark reward for a low-level PC's job well done is. I'm probably just going to crib 4th ed's treasure parcels for now and play by ear, but with this issue "resolved" I run into a second problem.

I know this group. I've been gaming with them for about a decade now.

They'll want stuff to spend their gold on, and 2nd ed is very sparce on it's list of stuff to spend your gold on. I know that the party, and more importantly me, largely doesn't care about the bookkeeping and maintenance of keeps and whatnot. I can barely put the effort to do my own taxes (hooray for accountants!), fantasy taxes i care even less for.

So tossing that whole aspect outside the window, what else is there to really spend money on?
I want my PCs to find gold and have their minds wander at stuff they can do with it meaningfully, not just pay some taxes, upgrading your armour to plate, some consumables upkeep and your inn room payments? How can I make a dragon's hoard a thing to meaningfully quest for instead of "great, more paperweights".

How does gold retain value when the book gives so little to actually do with it

In D&D 3.P & 4th, we have the magic item treadmill.
In games like FFG Star Wars or Shadowrun we have extra gear & mods.

But 2nd ed lacks any real gear/improved gear that the PCs can strive to save up for an buy, so what can I offer the PCs to make them go "this is a thing that I want to spend money on and see meaningful results"? What's the payoff for the dangerous job of adventuring outside of a warm & fuzzy feeling of a job well done?

[JadedDM]

In 2E, most gold earned by the party is meant to be squirreled away until they reach level 9, at which point they spend it on building and maintaining their strongholds.

[knag]

2e decoupled XP and GP, so if there's nothing to spend money on, just don't give them so much.

But... one thing I've had fun with in games is investing in other things beyond building and maintaining keeps. I had a character recently who came into the ownership of a ship. He hired a crew and began building a shipping empire which sort of operated in the background of the campaign. Maybe fantasy commerce is too close to fantasy taxes though.

That same character, who was an LG cleric, pushed all of his earnings from shipping into building a network of orphanages across Faerun. There was really no limit to the amount of money he could sink into saving the starving urchins of the realm, and it made my character feel good about himself.

Finally, a great thing to spend extra cash on that is often underutilized is magic item creation. Potions and scrolls and certainly permanent items take super expensive raw materials. Of course you can't do that until highish levels.

[FreddyNoNose]

I run first edition and never did the gold xp thing. I thought it was stupid when it was introduced.

Without a ton more information about what your game is like it is hard to tailor an answer specific to your game. But in general, they can spend money on other things.

Class Related:
Training is the obvious one.
Guild memberships, not limited to rogues and wizards.
My game tends to have expendables for purchase. Potions and magic arrows being the big ones. And big drain on the wallet but useful.
Magic-users looking to purchase new spells will pay a ton for them. Spell/potion/magic item research and creation.

Cost of living:
Maintenance and upkeep of gear.
Daily living expenses. Food, water, room. What about horses?
Henchman and Hirelings. Can be expensive. If the magic-user wants to make potions, an alchemist is helpful.

Cost of Adventuring:
Replacement of mounts: Encounters don't always attack the players.
Special equipment for an adventure: Boats to buy or hire
Supplies: counting arrows sucks, running out of them is worse. Make them count arrows.
INFORMATION: Information comes in many varieties. There is the barkeep you drop a few coin on or perhaps buy a round for the house. Get a bit of information on someone, groups going around doing business or even odd things like items for sale. Items that can be purchased that gives information. Such as maps and books which can be expensive.
Maps: A map could lead to X but X might be: Looted already. They can also be less valuable than what they paid for the map.
Books: Books can be very expensive but can allow a character to research something. It might take multiple books. Each one could lead to the character traveling to get another book, look for information, or other adventure. Perhaps a map will be required at some point to find the final location of something. All of these add expenses to the character's life.
You can string these along. Maps and books can lead to exploring for more information. Perhaps clearing out an entire dungeon just to find a book or scroll with a scrap of information. One big puzzle. And it doesn't always have to pay off or sometimes it can lead to something different.
Other information can be sages. How about identifying magic items. IIRC, 2nd ed was easy on item identification.


Just a bit of advice, when you start a campaign, the tendency is to have prices for food/lodging be cheap, but sometimes it is more useful to make it more expensive because you are looking at the future when they have more money. Inflation can strike too. They haul out a ton of money from a dragons hoard and suddenly potions cost 3 to 5 times more! Perhaps a town could scam a group of adventures with a false map and high prices to start with. You never know. Players could rack up debt which they have to pay off. Keep them poor and looking for more.

I like to have downtime in my games. After an adventure, instead of dropping a new adventure in their lap, they have to search around to find one. Plus somethings they have to take time to recover, prepare or other things before the next adventure. That custom suit of armor takes time to make. If you always drop something in their lap, they miss out on them freely exploring your world. Some players need to have to drop adventures in their laps, so watch out for that.

If you think the players might get bored by downtime, that can be a good thing. It can inspire them to be creative which can cause all kinds of fun and trouble. Just remember, downtime also costs money for food/lodging and other expenses.

[LibraryOgre]

I have some basic rules for investing that my players take advantage of. I have the local trade deity's priests act as agents, matching investors to ventures. Sometimes, players will invest with a caravan they intend to travel with, buying shares and making a bit of money on their travel.

For 2e, you're probably want to change the silver to gold, for most references, but there you go.

[FreddyNoNose]

I have some basic rules for investing that my players take advantage of. I have the local trade deity's priests act as agents, matching investors to ventures. Sometimes, players will invest with a caravan they intend to travel with, buying shares and making a bit of money on their travel.

For 2e, you're probably want to change the silver to gold, for most references, but there you go.

I was going to write investments but was distracted by a phone call. It is a good thing to have in a game.
Building an business empire is an option too.

[CE DM]

Libraries & workshops for research & item creation, spell research & research itself, item creation & spell components
towers, keeps, castles, fortresses, shrines, temples, churches, & palaces
servants, men at arms, slaves, sages
plate armor (fancy, special materials)
spells from NPCs
bribes for NPC's & Monsters
ransom payments
living the high life (maintenance cost)...king, rock star, adventurer.
(donations)
bling/decoration

Moreover, being 2e AD&D, one doesn't need to give out coin anywhere near so much, it NOT being tied to XP. So not every monster needs have kept useless coins, swallowed gems recently, and so forth. 2e has a distinction in that; most editions require $ for XP, &/or for magic item purchases. Revel in the freedom from that.

The most meaningful way is to show it's effects on the game world though. Smaug's death leads right to the Battle of 5 Armies. It makes the world go around, even if it doesn't from the perspective of a PC/player.

Even ignoring the genocidal crimes & moral bankruptcy behind the massive influx of gold & silver influx to Spain from the New World, it caused enormous political, economic, social & religious changes & issues, not just to Spain, but all Europe. Piracy, out of control inflation, etc, etc. It led to the collapse of their Empire, one can easily argue.

Of course, the ramifications of large treasure hoards might well put players off messing with them, but that's a problem that solves itself, then. If not, then they have to deal with it at every turn, from starving beggars they are responsible for creating to endless attempts to take the loot from them or kill them.

[hamlet]

Actually, coin for XP is an optional rule in 2nd edition, though the recommendation is awarding 1 xp per 2 gp value treasure and none for magic since the reward is the magic.

Just sayin'.

If you don't like random treasure, I would actually recommend against trying to do d20 style award packets. They don't quite work the same.

Instead, somewhere out on the web, there's a random AD&D treasure generator (i.e., you plug in treasure types and it spits out random treasures pre-generated for you). Maybe put together a few pre-determined packages for random and minor things but then set treasure for more important encounters.

[CE DM]

I know...and do not assume an option is in use. Certainly no need to tell me that, thanks.

Player's CHARACTERS adventure in 2e for 3 things:

GOOD:...gold has no impact here, save to "give away". It's role playing.
GOLD/GREED: it is merely role playing to go this route, just like the above. Characters with treasure lust have no more gain from it than modern day millionaires & billionaires get from more $, yet they pursue more $ & less taxes with more zeal than any priest ever had.
GLORY: once again, role playing. Success, defeating terrible challenges (puzzles through tough combats with powerful foes), cheers from the crowd, adoration & respect of NPC's.

If players don't get it, then they need to learn that the FUN of D&D(any) is in PLAYING THE GAME ITSELF.

Get off the (illusionary in 2e) treadmill. Players are TERRIBLE at knowing what makes for a fun game, and if needs be, break illusions that are holding them back. Such as the illusion that imaginary magic items actually matter any more than imaginary diamonds or imaginary praise. None of it comes back to the real world, and none of it actually helps the players in the game...more power just has the DM counter with greater difficulty. There is no "winning" vs the DM. It speeds up advancement is all, and that's not so great as players think either.

The ONE thing players need to do to have fun playing this GAME, is to buy into some illusion (any one) so that they get invested/immersed in playing their avatar/character. It makes no difference at all which one/way they choose for a specific character/to get "into character", be it good deeds, greed, glory or even the one all d20 players fall to: POWER. Help them see that other options besides power are present in this version of the game. It's one of it's selling points.

[oxybe]

First off, thanks for all the responses! Lots to mull over. As I said in the OP, I'm not big on keeps and upkeeps and whatnot, so I'll probably end up de-emphasasizing monetary gain, as a potential motivation... but still: a lot to think about.

Again, I appreciate the answers.

[FreddyNoNose]

I know...and do not assume an option is in use. Certainly no need to tell me that, thanks.

Player's CHARACTERS adventure in 2e for 3 things:

GOOD:...gold has no impact here, save to "give away". It's role playing.
GOLD/GREED: it is merely role playing to go this route, just like the above. Characters with treasure lust have no more gain from it than modern day millionaires & billionaires get from more $, yet they pursue more $ & less taxes with more zeal than any priest ever had.
GLORY: once again, role playing. Success, defeating terrible challenges (puzzles through tough combats with powerful foes), cheers from the crowd, adoration & respect of NPC's.

If players don't get it, then they need to learn that the FUN of D&D(any) is in PLAYING THE GAME ITSELF.

Get off the (illusionary in 2e) treadmill. Players are TERRIBLE at knowing what makes for a fun game, and if needs be, break illusions that are holding them back. Such as the illusion that imaginary magic items actually matter any more than imaginary diamonds or imaginary praise. None of it comes back to the real world, and none of it actually helps the players in the game...more power just has the DM counter with greater difficulty. There is no "winning" vs the DM. It speeds up advancement is all, and that's not so great as players think either.

The ONE thing players need to do to have fun playing this GAME, is to buy into some illusion (any one) so that they get invested/immersed in playing their avatar/character. It makes no difference at all which one/way they choose for a specific character/to get "into character", be it good deeds, greed, glory or even the one all d20 players fall to: POWER. Help them see that other options besides power are present in this version of the game. It's one of it's selling points.

So your way is the proper good way then?