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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    For my new AL character, I have the following multiclass in mind: Variant Human-- Inspiring Leader, then Level 1 Bard, Level 2-4 Hexblade, Level 5-? Blade Bard. Background wise, He's a 'fixer' and speechwriter for one of the Lords of Waterdeep, who has a pact with Orcus or Orcus's Wand, depending on how you want to flavor the hexblade stuff. I'm taking Devil's Sight and Book of Secrets for my Invocations, and I know I want Thorn Whip, and Guidance for my Book of Secrets cantrips but I don't know what to pick for the third one. Any ideas?

    Around here, AL groups are huge, so the inspiring leader buff would max out (ie 6 PCs) each time, and also hopefully incentivize the group to let my guy take short rests, since he's heavily dependent on them (for Level 2 Warlock Slots, Hexblade Curse, and Bardic Inspiration Recharges). In combat I'm going to use the darkness (recharging on a short rest) and devil's sight combo to give him what amounts to a janky greater invisibility. So he's this really personable, charismatic and inspiring guy who dissappears into a cloud of darkness leaving only mutilated corpses in his wake in combat, which I think is thematically nice and creepy. With the extra attack from Blade bard (and effectivly 1/2 of the warcaster feat, since I'll be able to cast regardless of holding a weapon or shield) I'll critfish with the advantage from darkness and then use the blade bard's inspiration as a poor man's smite to drop on a crit. For my Level 10 spell steals, I'm definitely picking up Find Greater Steed for the combat mobility and 'super familiar' afforded by it, and I'm open to other suggestions although I like spiritual weapon a whole lot for 3 (sort of) attacks that can all proc crits, and spiritual weapon feels right for a hexblade.

    The big question, as usual, is how do you keep Darkness from gimping the rest of the party? Does this build really play nice with others (due to Charismatic Leader) or not really? I'm a little unclear on Darkness itself-- You are unseen attacker, so does that cancel out the fact that your target is heavily obscured to make it a flat attack roll? Or is anyone next to me (except kobolds with pack tactics or something) doomed to disadvantage? Anyway, I think this would be a fun build and I'd really like people's opinions of it as a gish build (I'll probably use the level 4 rebuild to switch to half elf and eventually pick up elvish advantage) and as someone to have in your party.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    strangebloke's Avatar

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    For your allies, fighting in the darkness simply means that any source of advantage and/disadvantage doesn't apply. So it mostly means that your teammates will have trouble locating enemies in your sphere.

    But I wouldn't lean too heavily on darkness/devil's sight. It is absolutely a strong ability, but at some point you can just cast greater invisibility.

    I'm partial to mask of many faces, myself.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    RAW is really funky where vision is concerned; it seems that if your friends and enemies can't see in the dark, they'll be rolling without advantage or disadvantage because of Blinded cancelling out on both sides. Having Darkness will be a bit rough on the rest of the party because most spellcasters need to be able to see their target, and if your DM is a little harsh then your ranged attackers will be having lots of trouble as well.

    I would definitely suggest getting something made for your Darkness; something like a hooded lantern but that closes completely. The idea is to be able to switch the Darkness on and off without actually having to recast it (10 min duration means you can sometimes keep the same casting between fights) by hooding the lantern as your object interaction. Good for opening up the room for your allies to strike too, if it's a small one. It also allows you to pre-cast your Darkness before the battle begins if it's a predictable one, saving you an action.

    Unlike most Hexblades, you won't be casting Hex much so maximizing your attacks isn't quite as important; Booming Blade will be great for you as you can move up to someone, Booming Blade and then move away (can't OA you because they can't see you, PHB p. 195), so they have to trigger it to hit you. It would still be nice to have a resource-less bonus action attack, so you might consider Polearm Master.

    As for invocations, you're not going to be able to cast the regular Hex yourself as you'll be concentrating on Darkness so the Warlock hex trigger invocations won't do you much good. I'd pick up Agonizing Blast for a solid ranged attack, or possibly Thirsting Blade if you get to Lock5 before you hit Bard6.

    Feat-wise, you NEED War Caster. Regardless of your disadvantage, you will get hit, you will lose your Darkness, and then you will get piled on. I would also greatly suggest Great Weapon Master, even though it doesn't play with the Swords fighting styles, as your always-on Advantage and Cha-SADness will compensate for the accuracy disadvantage and let you hit hard. Elven Accuracy will make that amazing, as well.

    I wouldn't go for Find Greater Steed unless you have a good plan for it; it's not that powerful a minion and it doesn't have your Devil's Sight. The only reason I'd go for it is if you have some really good spells to share with it. One thing you might consider (but probably won't work for your concept) is to get Sharpshooter and pick up Swift Quiver with your Lore option, which would make you an arrow-spewing engine of death. Spiritual Weapon is a good idea, and it's possible (check with RAW-heads or your DM) that it might benefit from your Darkness (as it's technically you making a melee spell attack, and you can see). I would recommend picking up Thunderstep, as a matter of utility, and definitely get Shield from Hexblade; you'll be able to cast it with your Bard slots.

    Have fun eating the souls of your enemies!
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    For your allies, fighting in the darkness simply means that any source of advantage and/disadvantage doesn't apply. So it mostly means that your teammates will have trouble locating enemies in your sphere.

    But I wouldn't lean too heavily on darkness/devil's sight. It is absolutely a strong ability, but at some point you can just cast greater invisibility.

    I'm partial to mask of many faces, myself.
    Thanks for the clarification-- so it will be flat rolls for all other combatants inside the sphere, and impossible for non AOE spells to target things in the sphere at range? That is how I understand it in light of what you've said.

    I understand what you mean about greater invisibility, but the nice thing about this build is that you can cast darkness from one of your 5 level 2 slots (as oppposed to three at best for level 4). Plus, you'll get it back when you short rest, so it become almost an 'at will' ability. Also, thematically I like a pool of darkness better than just disappearing and if someone gets a shot through and conks you on the head, losing concentration on a level 2 spell is much less of a bummer than loosing a level 4, in my opinion. In any event like to keep my level 4 slots free for polymorphs, in case I need to turn myself or a caster into a T-Rex.

    I was torn on the second invocation, since I've played a blaster-lock in the past and it's definitely effective. But just being the party's light machine gun is boring, and AL frankly doesn't have a ton of great non-murder solutions to problems in my experience. I find if you try to diplomancer your way out of problems in AL, you're kind of ruining the fun of the 5 guys who showed up just to murder things. That aside though, mask of many faces is absolutely my favorite invocation and in non AL campaigns it is what I like to use. With Book of Shadows though, I'll get guidance, which is thematic for a leader type and makes him even more persuasive, plus thorn whip in case I need to pull someone into my darkness bubble or something, but I'm unsure of what to go with for the last one. I'm definitely looking forward to picking up an owl familiar with Book of Secrets though.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Snoggins View Post
    For my new AL character, I have the following multiclass in mind: Variant Human-- Inspiring Leader, then Level 1 Bard, Level 2-4 Hexblade, Level 5-? Blade Bard. Background wise, He's a 'fixer' and speechwriter for one of the Lords of Waterdeep, who has a pact with Orcus or Orcus's Wand, depending on how you want to flavor the hexblade stuff. I'm taking Devil's Sight and Book of Secrets for my Invocations, and I know I want Thorn Whip, and Guidance for my Book of Secrets cantrips but I don't know what to pick for the third one. Any ideas?

    Around here, AL groups are huge, so the inspiring leader buff would max out (ie 6 PCs) each time, and also hopefully incentivize the group to let my guy take short rests, since he's heavily dependent on them (for Level 2 Warlock Slots, Hexblade Curse, and Bardic Inspiration Recharges). In combat I'm going to use the darkness (recharging on a short rest) and devil's sight combo to give him what amounts to a janky greater invisibility. So he's this really personable, charismatic and inspiring guy who dissappears into a cloud of darkness leaving only mutilated corpses in his wake in combat, which I think is thematically nice and creepy. With the extra attack from Blade bard (and effectivly 1/2 of the warcaster feat, since I'll be able to cast regardless of holding a weapon or shield) I'll critfish with the advantage from darkness and then use the blade bard's inspiration as a poor man's smite to drop on a crit. For my Level 10 spell steals, I'm definitely picking up Find Greater Steed for the combat mobility and 'super familiar' afforded by it, and I'm open to other suggestions although I like spiritual weapon a whole lot for 3 (sort of) attacks that can all proc crits, and spiritual weapon feels right for a hexblade.

    The big question, as usual, is how do you keep Darkness from gimping the rest of the party? Does this build really play nice with others (due to Charismatic Leader) or not really? I'm a little unclear on Darkness itself-- You are unseen attacker, so does that cancel out the fact that your target is heavily obscured to make it a flat attack roll? Or is anyone next to me (except kobolds with pack tactics or something) doomed to disadvantage? Anyway, I think this would be a fun build and I'd really like people's opinions of it as a gish build (I'll probably use the level 4 rebuild to switch to half elf and eventually pick up elvish advantage) and as someone to have in your party.
    Hi!

    This build should play great, with that multiclass you have many ways to help your party: I'd strongly consider picking all "communications" related spells (Suggestion, Silence at least) since it fits with your thematic, as well as Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers and Enhance Ability from Bard and Hold Person from Warlock. That way you always have something meaningful to contribute to your party with your spell slots whenever Darkness is not a good option.

    On that regard specifically, your best bet is to learn Find Familiar with the Ritual Invocation, use it to get an owl, and have it carry a stone on which you casted Darkness.
    That way you can make the cloud move as you wish, so it will be easier to position it to limit the bother to your party, or you could just even instruct your pet to fly "above" when necessary. Note that you're still limited to the fact the pet has its own turn (or does it act on yours? I don't remember) so even including "own turn move" + "Ready action & reaction move" you can do only one down&up per round.

    Hope that helps, have fun ;)

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    RAW is really funky where vision is concerned; it seems that if your friends and enemies can't see in the dark, they'll be rolling without advantage or disadvantage because of Blinded cancelling out on both sides. Having Darkness will be a bit rough on the rest of the party because most spellcasters need to be able to see their target, and if your DM is a little harsh then your ranged attackers will be having lots of trouble as well.

    I would definitely suggest getting something made for your Darkness; something like a hooded lantern but that closes completely. The idea is to be able to switch the Darkness on and off without actually having to recast it (10 min duration means you can sometimes keep the same casting between fights) by hooding the lantern as your object interaction. Good for opening up the room for your allies to strike too, if it's a small one. It also allows you to pre-cast your Darkness before the battle begins if it's a predictable one, saving you an action.

    Unlike most Hexblades, you won't be casting Hex much so maximizing your attacks isn't quite as important; Booming Blade will be great for you as you can move up to someone, Booming Blade and then move away (can't OA you because they can't see you, PHB p. 195), so they have to trigger it to hit you. It would still be nice to have a resource-less bonus action attack, so you might consider Polearm Master.

    As for invocations, you're not going to be able to cast the regular Hex yourself as you'll be concentrating on Darkness so the Warlock hex trigger invocations won't do you much good. I'd pick up Agonizing Blast for a solid ranged attack, or possibly Thirsting Blade if you get to Lock5 before you hit Bard6.

    I wouldn't go for Find Greater Steed unless you have a good plan for it; it's not that powerful a minion and it doesn't have your Devil's Sight. The only reason I'd go for it is if you have some really good spells to share with it. One thing you might consider (but probably won't work for your concept) is to get Sharpshooter and pick up Swift Quiver with your Lore option, which would make you an arrow-spewing engine of death. Spiritual Weapon is a good idea, and it's possible (check with RAW-heads or your DM) that it might benefit from your Darkness (as it's technically you making a melee spell attack, and you can see). I would recommend picking up Thunderstep, as a matter of utility, and definitely get Shield from Hexblade; you'll be able to cast it with your Bard slots.

    Have fun eating the souls of your enemies!
    Thanks for the advice, especially about how to manage the concentration 'slot', which is probably the rate limiting step for this build, even more than usual for a bard lock. My thought with Find Greater Steed was to use a griffon to grapple targets (I wouldn't often ride the steed, since as you point out, I would blind it) I wasn't fighting, dash up with them next turn, then drop them on somebody else or into my darkness bubble, where bad things would happen to them. Or 'casevac' a martial PC that got a little too brave on the front lines and would go down instantly if I cast healing word on him. You have a great point about the spell-sharing and I wish I could cast better spells to share with him, like dragons breath or something, but concentration and spell list limitations really limit my options there.

    I wish I could take Booming Blade, and Green Flame Blade to help out until I get level 6 blade bard, but I'm limited to PHB + 1 by the league rules. I don't think I can bend that with 'Book of Secrets' since the cantrips are given, not copied. That would be great if I could though: it and would help me fill out that last cantrip slot, and I would be happy to be proven wrong in that regard.

    While I really like Darkness for how it can be used as almost a 'greater invisibility' with Devil's Sight, I'm concerned about stepping on other people's fun, including the DM. Hopefully like you said, it will just motivate him to clobber the spooky bard and get me to drop my concentration. I'll be pretty ASI limited due to the multiclass so it's going to come down to basically having 20 CHA, having Elvish Accuracy, or having Warcaster. Of the three, I'm probably going to give Warcaster a miss since Inspiring Leader and 20 Charisma are foundational to the character concept. I am thinking he'll become obviously sicker and more debilitated in the few hours between short rests, then appear to become totally rejuvenated and youthful during his 'inspiring leader' speech. Hopefully there won't be any light clerics in the back row rolling insight checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Hi!

    This build should play great, with that multiclass you have many ways to help your party: I'd strongly consider picking all "communications" related spells (Suggestion, Silence at least) since it fits with your thematic, as well as Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers and Enhance Ability from Bard and Hold Person from Warlock. That way you always have something meaningful to contribute to your party with your spell slots whenever Darkness is not a good option.

    On that regard specifically, your best bet is to learn Find Familiar with the Ritual Invocation, use it to get an owl, and have it carry a stone on which you casted Darkness.
    That way you can make the cloud move as you wish, so it will be easier to position it to limit the bother to your party, or you could just even instruct your pet to fly "above" when necessary. Note that you're still limited to the fact the pet has its own turn (or does it act on yours? I don't remember) so even including "own turn move" + "Ready action & reaction move" you can do only one down&up per round.

    Hope that helps, have fun ;)
    Thats an awesome idea about the owl, I never thought of that. The only problem I can see is that the owl doesn't have any way of seeing through magical darkness. I guess RAW that doesn't matter though-- I'm not sure about that. In any case, I can just take a bat, which is a pretty good match for the theme of this guy anyway. Your suggestion made me think that my PC can use a signet ring on a chain as the 'focus' of the darkness. So he can either wear it as a necklace, and tuck it inside his breastplate if I want to keep it on me, or the owl can pick it off my neck and fly off with it, and put it in his mouth next turn if he wants to 'turn on the lights'. Generally the AL DMs I've played with are OK with you always playing your familiar in your iniative step, to keep things simple, but that isn't always the case. Either way, between his free action, action, etc, it should be able to work. I never thought of using the familiar in that way before, thanks.

    For comms spells, I'm definitely taking Message, which I've found to be a surprisingly useful cantrip, and Detect Thoughts. Suggestion is fantastic and I might pick it up as well, although it's hard to justify when you already have an +OMG modifier on Persuasion. I love the flavor and creepy feel of detect thoughts though-- it feels perfect for this guy.
    Last edited by Kenny Snoggins; 2018-03-04 at 06:16 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Snoggins View Post
    For comms spells, I'm definitely taking Message, which I've found to be a surprisingly useful cantrip, and Detect Thoughts. Suggestion is fantastic and I might pick it up as well, although it's hard to justify when you already have an +OMG modifier on Persuasion. I love the flavor and creepy feel of detect thoughts though-- it feels perfect for this guy.
    Well, if you have nice stories to share about Detect Thoughts it would be great, I have trouble finding how to use it really. ^^

    I'd like however to stress that Suggestion is different from Persuasion. There are many, MANY things that any reasonable DM won't just allow you to push into another's mind per a skill check, high bonus of Persuasion/Intimidation or not. Simply because those things you'd like the other to do or be convinced of, are just plain illogical or immoral for the creature.
    In short, you have no ground to leap from.

    With Suggestion, depending of course of how far the DM interprets it, you may actually achieve such results because you can magically "set the context" in such a way that it now sounds reasonable.

    Quick example.
    You are in a standoff with a hostile troop (hostile because it's their usual stance, but you don't have previous knowledge of each other... Like a group of bandits), things look rather hairy for you. Both parties are aware of the surroundings, so the enemy chief knows from his scouts that you have no reinforcements close.
    Three options, which may or not be admitted by your DM.
    1) DM agrees you can change the perception of the current situation (actually modify information that had been factually verified), so you insert the following...
    "These people are powerful, so their allies are probably just good enough to stay undetected by my scouts. We will probably be surrounded soon we'd better retreat for now."

    2) DM refuses to let you to this, but agrees that you can add "new" information as long as it doesn't directly contradicts what the creature already knows.
    "These guys are part of a powerful faction. I'd better try and find a peaceful resolution rather than fight them and get the whole group on my back."

    3) DM just agrees that you can influence the perception the enemy has from you (would be a hard nerf, but it's for the example).
    "These guys look like a very dangerous group of casters yet not very wealthy, fighting them would be too much hassle for the gain."
    "These guys look poor and harmless, let's not bother with them" (although one might argue that this is not necessarily a "reasonable" course of action for a thief, not racketting everyone ^^).

    4) DM refuses all three previous examples... Then I'd be stuck myself, no more idea. XD

    Sooo... Admitedly this example is not good (hard when in combat situations), especially in the Suggestions I provide, not well formulated. :/
    It's just very hard to give actual examples of validated uses without writing two pages to describe the context. ^^

    One such example, yet short, would be when a Sorcerer player of mine (me as a DM) used Subtle Suggestion when they met a local noble, that commissioned them on a quest for a reward they found puny. Sorcerer made a successful Suggestion "My offer is actually underwhelming for the task, I'll modify the contract to give them a castle and its surroundings as a reward".
    I saw no reason to consider it not valid, even if technically if was, in short, giving them a third of all his riches... Seemed as reasonable as the example given of a knight giving his horse to a beggar anyways, but maybe it's my bias regarding the relationship between a knight and his ride. ;)

    If you're wary of how DM would work with you on Suggestions, I suggest a) you search on this forum for topics about this spell and b) you ask your DM beforehand with a few example situations, to see if you can agree on a ruling.
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-03-04 at 06:47 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    not sure if Citan said it (sorry this time can't be bothered with the amount text ill read it later) but i think thematically you might want Whispers Bard over Swords or depending on how you want to play it Satire or Glamor.


    I feel like swords doesn't offer much there in the thematic sense.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Advice needed on Evil Politician Build-- Hexblade / Swords Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Well, if you have nice stories to share about Detect Thoughts it would be great, I have trouble finding how to use it really.
    Suggestion is a great spell, and it's useful in situations where the DM (reasonably IMO) adjudicates that magical resources have to be burnt up to get an effect. I just find that the line between needing magical persuasion and needing to just kill whatever is in your way is vanishingly small in UA. For most social pillar things you can just use your expertise in persuasion, and if it's not social pillar, you're probably stabbing the guy anyway. But I take your meaning.

    Detect Thoughts has a few uses for me. It's almost always useful as a stand in (at the same level) for Show Invisibility, only failing in the very unusual case where you have an unintelligent, invisible creature. It's (per the PHB) essentially impossible to conceal information during an interrogation with Detect Thoughts going. That's great for when you want to find if there is extra loot that you are missing (hidden magic items) or getting the layout of traps in a complex. You knock out a mook instead of killing him and then interrogate them with Detect Thoughts and get the lay of the land. For undead its especially useful for finding the coffin of a vampire, the phylactery of a niche or the secret of a ghost. It's a great spell for ruining all the surprises of a dungeon if you can take an intelligent henchman alive.

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