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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    And the DM just told the player "there is no monster in the vicinity/there is one but it doesn't care about your stealth result". Which is a wierd thing for a stealth check to reveal, regardless of what the rules say about the topic.

    If you have that little trust in your PCs, having them anticipate what rolls their actions will require is the least of your concern.
    These two replies read a little weirdly back to back. In the first you frame your case around the problem of giving meta-information to the player. In the second you pooh-pooh the idea that giving out meta-information to the player is a problem. Am I missing something?

    (Parenthetically, a DM giving a result without asking for a roll may also mean they resolved a passive check.)
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    I'll add that, in a lot of cases, you can tell the players an approximate DC. Not always-Stealth, for instance, would be usually unknown if you're scouting, but if you're Stealthing into a scouted area, you might know there's two sleepy guards playing cards and one bloodhound that's nice and alert, so the DM could say "The guards appear to be pretty inattentive-DC shouldn't be higher than 11 or 12 to get by them. But the dog is clearly alert, and has a keen nose, so unless you have a way around that, it might easily be DC 18 or 19 to get by him."

    Likewise, if there's a sheer cliff, characters are generally assumed to be competent. Assuming the cliff is tough enough to merit a check, you can (and probably should) give them the exact DC, since the characters should know how good at climbing they are. So, in this instance, I might say "DC 18 for climbing the cliff. If you fail on a 13-17, you stay in place or slip only slightly, but if you fail on a 12 or less, you fall from however far up you managed to get. It'll be three checks total to make it up, each one bringing you up 30'." So the scrawny Wizard (-1 Athletics) waits for his friends to climb and toss a rope down, or casts Fly if that can't happen. Whereas the burly Fighter (+9 Athletics) decides that a 3/20 chance of falling ain't that bad, and climbs it (although, over the course of the climb, there's a just under 40% chance of him falling). The Rogue, meanwhile, has Expertise and a decent strength, so is rocking +12, and cannot fall unless outside circumstances make him, so climbs like a monkey. If they were smart, they'd have the Rogue either climb on his own (can't fall) and drop a rope, or Help the Fighter climb it, for a 2.25% chance of falling per check, and only a total of about 7% chance of falling overall.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Dragon View Post
    These two replies read a little weirdly back to back. In the first you frame your case around the problem of giving meta-information to the player. In the second you pooh-pooh the idea that giving out meta-information to the player is a problem. Am I missing something?
    Two things: 1. I'm not convinced how much players will metagame a stealth check. They knew why they rolled for stealth ("I'll go scout ahead/set up an ambush"), if they're honest they should be able to do a roughly the same thing. Now entering an area and knowing a monster is there, no, they didn't know exactly what they were going to do in that room, so its harder to not let it effect you.


    And ultimatly:

    "I still say that between players subconciously altering their actions based on a stealth roll result and players subcontiously altering their actions based on the DM indirectly telling them that there is a monster nearby, the latter will have the bigger impact on the game."
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Or, or, or, Joe, being smart and understanding that advantage can come and go, rolls twice, and informs the DM of the results with and without advantage.
    And disadvantage, since that can happen as well.

    And now Joe metagames, because he can't help it, and, noting that he rolled well both times, he is very bold in his movements. Or he rolled very poorly both times and so he's very conservative. Or he rolled once very well and once very poorly so he tries very hard to stay out of hearing range.

    "Oh," but you say, "don't you trust your players?"

    Well, I do, but I also ask them to roll on the table where everyone can see it. Besides that, the best way to head off metagaming, in my experience, is to make it impossible. Anytime a player says "Well, I clearly know this bit of out-of-game information, but I am not allowed to use it because that would constitute metagaming." he is being taken out of the game. That is bad.

    "But if you only ask for a stealth roll when he could be perceived, aren't you giving him information?"

    Well, yes. But not much. He could be rolling stealth against a squirrel, for all he knows. Heck, it could be a DC 5 because there's a sleeping guard 50 feet away that might wake up if he rolls a nat 1.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    And disadvantage, since that can happen as well.
    Not if Jow has advantage, but yeah sure, if he doesn't, then he can roll twice for that. Easily done.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Well, yes. But not much.
    I disagree. I think you're giving him more information by calling for checks, as I explained above. An honest player knowns why they are hiding and can carry out a general plan regardless of the stealth result. An honest player doesn't know how the knowledge of a creature being there effects their plan. Its no longer about honestly, its about not being able to unlearn something.

    I'm sorry to hear your expirience with players has been they cannot help but metagame.
    Last edited by Boci; 2018-03-05 at 03:22 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakOfAllTirades View Post
    Yeah, I think after a few minutes of this I'd just hand the GM my character sheet, tell him to have fun playing my character for me, and go find another D&D table.
    You're of course free to do as you will, but I fail to see how a DM deciding if an ability check is called for amounts to playing for the player.

    It was after all the player's description of their choice of goal and approach that determined whether or not the check is called for.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    It was after all the player's description of their choice of goal and approach that determined whether or not the check is called for.
    To me it seems redunant. When we played 5th ed players anticipated what skills would acompany their attempts, and I don't recall it being a reocuring issue that they misjudged which skill was to be used. When he were unsure we were asked, but we didn't need to be told to roll perception after we described our characters looking for something.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    You're of course free to do as you will, but I fail to see how a DM deciding if an ability check is called for amounts to playing for the player.

    It was after all the player's description of their choice of goal and approach that determined whether or not the check is called for.
    I'd say that, oftentimes, players CAN call for a check. If the player is lying to the king, I don't need to approve them rolling Deception. I might ask them to roll an extra die (for dis- or advantage), but the situation is CLEARLY Deception time.

    In other cases, though, such as when rolling for knowledge on a new monster, players should generally wait for me to call for a check. They can say "I look at the monster and search my brain for any knowledge on it," but they can't then say "I roll Arcana,". Because what if the monster can't be identified with Arcana?
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    In other cases, though, such as when rolling for knowledge on a new monster, players should generally wait for me to call for a check. They can say "I look at the monster and search my brain for any knowledge on it," but they can't then say "I roll Arcana,". Because what if the monster can't be identified with Arcana?
    Then the roll, and the 5 seconds of time it took, is wasted (beyond telling you its not an arcana creature). Then again I play alot in online games, where making assumptions can save a lot of time.
    Last edited by Boci; 2018-03-05 at 03:39 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Then the roll, and the 5 seconds of time it, took is wasted.
    Fair enough, but it's a bad habit to be in. I don't want to be constantly telling my players "No, that roll meant nothing," especially if it was a good roll.

    Edit: You added in a bit about online games. DEFINITELY agree there-Play by Post is slow enough as is. In a real game, there's no major issue with waiting for me to call for a check, but yes, by all means, be proactive in a PbP. It can lead to "Sorry, your nat 20 means nothing," but it's better than waiting three days for one roll to resolve.
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2018-03-05 at 03:40 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Fair enough, but it's a bad habit to be in. I don't want to be constantly telling my players "No, that roll meant nothing," especially if it was a good roll.
    If the player is rolling arcana without the DM okay it, then they accept that they roll could be wasted. Argualy it still tells them something, that this creature isn't from the arcana group, which does narrow down, especially now that monsters have, what, 4 group knowledgewise?

    Also I play alot in online games, where making assumptions can save a lot of time.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If the player is rolling arcana without the DM okay it, then they accept that they roll could be wasted. Argualy it still tells them something, that this creature isn't from the arcana group, which does narrow down, especially now that monsters have, what, 4 group knowledgewise?

    Also I play alot in online games, where making assumptions can save a lot of time.
    I noticed you edited that in, and edited in a response to that, Boci. I agree on PbP games, not as much in real time games.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I noticed you edited that in, and edited in a response to that, Boci. I agree on PbP games, not as much in real time games.
    I saw, didn't want to edit any firther least the cycle continues.
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I saw, didn't want to edit any firther least the cycle continues.
    Fair enough.

    I'll say this: Assuming the player is okay with a roll being potentially wasted, I don't mind them rolling a check before I call for one. BUT! If they do do that, they give up any rights to be salty about rolling well and not having it count, since ultimately, the DM is the one who decides when an ability check is called for, not the player.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Fair enough.

    I'll say this: Assuming the player is okay with a roll being potentially wasted, I don't mind them rolling a check before I call for one. BUT! If they do do that, they give up any rights to be salty about rolling well and not having it count, since ultimately, the DM is the one who decides when an ability check is called for, not the player.
    Absolutly, and as you and I both said, players know that you look for stuff with perception and lie with deception, they generally know when their actions will call for a specific roll, and they also know monsters can be identified of one of several skills, so they also know when to ask. And even if they don't and just assume, its really not a big deal in my expirience at least.
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Where do I find one of the DM's in this thread who lets me play a character instead of a character sheet?

    Just saying what my PC does instead of having to guess/say what I'm rolling sounds great to me!
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Fair enough.

    I'll say this: Assuming the player is okay with a roll being potentially wasted, I don't mind them rolling a check before I call for one. BUT! If they do do that, they give up any rights to be salty about rolling well and not having it count, since ultimately, the DM is the one who decides when an ability check is called for, not the player.
    But then, to be devil's advocate, if we are complaining about metagaming, wouldn't this be a situation in which the DM can metagame? The DM sees the die roll and then purposefully sets the DC higher or lower. Really, the DM should probably just say its not possible or not impossible, but some DMs don't like to own their decisions.

    I guess a lot of it to me boils down to "if you can't trust the people you are rolling dice with (on either side) then stop rolling dice with them."

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Where do I find one of the DM's in this thread who lets me play a character instead of a character sheet?

    Just saying what my PC does instead of having to guess/say what I'm rolling sounds great to me!
    Literally any DM ever? If you don't tell them what you're rolling and just describe your character's actions, they will tell you what to roll. That's not the question, its can the PCs take agency and roll perception when looking for something without waiting for the go ahead from the DM.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    I generally require a player to deliver a belivable, good or passable RP in order for either of those skills to work (as I do for all skill checks btw).

    The check represents how good was the delivery, as well as the non-controlable aspects the character could not have forsawn (for example, attempting a persuation check could fail because of mentioning knowing someone the NPC secretly hates, or receive a "bonus" and succeed, because of a secret handshake done unintentionally (lowering the DC), but the PC or the Player would have no means of knowing this. I generally like including those realism factors that reward/punish a good or bad approach to problem solving, be it speaking to a stranger, going across the broken bridge or domesticating a pack of starved wolves instead of fighting them head on.

    The same holds true for even using a simple rope. Just standing there with a length of rope in front of a wall won't cut it for example. I want you to describe to me exactly what you do in order to use it, and climb said wall.

    Or, caltrops. I think they are cool too, but I want you to describe me how you use them without hurting yourself.

    I also require some cool description on attack rolls, and spell casting. It's more fun this way. I am already doing the descriptions for everything else, so you get to deside what your actions look like.
    Last edited by Asmotherion; 2018-03-05 at 05:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cealocanth View Post
    it strikes me that Persuasion and Deception are far too powerful skills in this game.
    Persuasion and deception skills are incredibly useful, both in game and in real life. They aren't, however, automatic "I win" skills.

    As a GM, you have two "defences" against them.

    First, nothing says you have to roll. If the players does something that has no chance of success, you just say "no". If the player says, "Don't I get to roll?" you repeat "no."

    Something that has no chance of success automatically fails with no die roll; just like something that has no chance of failure automatically succeeds with no die roll.

    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they are in control of their characters actions; you are still in control of the world's reactions to the character's actions.

    Second, eventually liars get caught. The longer the deception, the worse the consequences. Think Nixon or Clinton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cealocanth View Post
    a character can literally walk into a throne room and declare themselves king, and you can't do anything about it
    Yes you can. Just say "no". :-)

    The guards respond, "No, you are not the king, get out of here before we put your head on a pike."

    But... If the character has spent time learning the king's mannerisms and has stolen some of the king's clothes to wear and has planned for a time when the king is away then yes, the deception should work. Kudos to the player for having their character try something really ambitious.

    However, at some point the real king is going to turn upů
    Last edited by greenstone; 2018-03-05 at 08:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Worth nothing that you can give proficiencies to NPC statblocks because, you know, the ones in the book are generic ones for convenience's sake and not a 100% fitting representation of everyone.

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    The same holds true for even using a simple rope. Just standing there with a length of rope in front of a wall won't cut it for example. I want you to describe to me exactly what you do in order to use it, and climb said wall.
    Considering I don't know how to do almost anything a D&D adventurer would use their skills for on a day to day basis, if I was playing in your game social skills would be OP given they'd be the only ones which didn't require years of real life experience to use effectively

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    To me it seems redunant. When we played 5th ed players anticipated what skills would acompany their attempts, and I don't recall it being a reocuring issue that they misjudged which skill was to be used. When he were unsure we were asked, but we didn't need to be told to roll perception after we described our characters looking for something.
    I think it fosters a belief that one shouldn't be shooting for success without rolling by describing a goal and approach very well. I find if players are thinking about how their character would approach a scenario and describe that as well I like to have that just succeed.

    If that doesn't work, sure we'll roll for it, but hopefully they at least described it so well as to get situational Advantage.

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Literally any DM ever?[...]

    Everyone?

    No most of my DM's in the 20th century let me play a character not a sheet, but sadly that hasn't been true of my 21st century DM's.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Everyone?

    No most of my DM's in the 20th century let me play a character not a sheet, but sadly that hasn't been true of my 21st century DM's.
    So what happens when you describe what your character does without referencing a skill? They just stare blankly at you until you mention which skill you're trying to use?
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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    OP.

    As DM you're required to set the DC for tasks that are possible, and to forbid a check at all if something is impossible.

    A PC cant make an Dex (Acrobatics) check to tumble over a mile of water for example, and you cant make a Strength (Athletics) check to climb a wall made of sheer glass.

    Same deal with Charisma skills. Some lies are just impossible to believe no matter how slick the salesman. Some people simply cany be persuaded to do something when they have thier heart set on something else.

    You're missing this step in allowing Charisma checks in the first place. When a player wants to persuade or decieve a NPC first ask yourself if the NPC could be persuaded or decieved in this circumstance. If it's possible, you then move to setting a DC.

    All things being equal, persuading the King to hand over the throne is [DC: infinite, dont roll]. Unless you as DM have determined that the King is tired of his job, and wants to hand over the kingdom to a worthy person (and even then the check might have a catch; such as requesting the PC do a task for the king first).

    Think about what the NPC wants, and believes. Then let the interaction and skill checks (if any) flow from that premise.

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cealocanth View Post
    So, this is more of a 'what am I doing wrong' sort of thread, rather than a 'this is broken' sort of thread.

    I'm having quite a bit of trouble working with a character who has built strongly into Persuasion and Deception. Specifically, I think he's a multiclass Whispers Bard 6 Rogue 1. Like any class, he uses his class features as often as he can, but it strikes me that Persuasion and Deception are far too powerful skills in this game.

    NPC interaction is one of the primary ways that you can deliver lore, give players a way to spend their gold, develop story, and build a world, but it seems that when any amount of brief conversation would lead to a richer experience, the conversation is bypassed with a Persuasion or a Deception roll. With this build, a character can literally walk into a throne room and declare themselves king, and you can't do anything about it because they have a +9 to Deception and working against the results of the dice would be hurting player agency, equivalent to telling the Barbarian that he cannot attempt to jump over a chasm with Athletics or telling the Wizard that there's no way he could discern the identity of a magic item with Arcana.

    Am I misinterpreting how these skills work? How do you run a game where a single Persuasion or Deception roll won't break things? I'm not very good at improvisation, so I tend to prepare games by planning instead. I'm sure if I could improvise everything, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.
    This post just really made my day. I'm sure you will allow that barbarian to jump over that one mile chasm as well and the Wizard to identify that evil artifact that was hidden and struck off the pages of history and nobody knows anything about.
    Optimizing vs Roleplay
    If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?

    Roleplaying vs Fun
    If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Everyone?

    No most of my DM's in the 20th century let me play a character not a sheet, but sadly that hasn't been true of my 21st century DM's.
    Just find a GM that started to run games in the 20th century!
    Optimizing vs Roleplay
    If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?

    Roleplaying vs Fun
    If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    MadBear's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    I'm definitely going to throw my hat behind walking in to the thrown room being multiple checks, if it's allowed at all. With the right amount of prep and roleplaying I can see it being interesting and plausible.

    Let be clear though, this is not what I'm talking about:
    Player: I walk into the throne room, declare myself king
    DM: Roll check
    Player: I rolled a 20! Ha I'm king bitches


    Now instead if it went something like:

    Player: I bust into the thrown room demanding to speak to the captain of the guard regarding a matter of utmost importance.
    DM: The kings guard attempt to stop you.
    Player: I tell them that I am the true high king and I've brought proof
    DM: Roll persuasion to convince them to take you seriously
    Player: I roll a 21
    DM: Ok, they'll hear you out, but they're suspicious
    Player: I pull out a note with the last true kings handwriting stating that I was the next in line to the throne
    DM: Wait when did you make this?
    Player: Remember, I asked about making this last session, you had me roll a charisma check using forging tools
    DM: Ah ok, let me roll their insight. Ok, they seem to think this is legitimate. They tell you to wait while they pass it to the king sitting on the throne. The king takes one look at it before ripping it to shreds and throwing it onto the ground. He says "how dare you use a piece of trash paper like that to question my authority. Just who do you think you are anyway".
    Player: I'm Sir Benjin Snow the 2nd, you stole this throne from me, and I'm hear to reclaim it
    DM: Ok, roll a charisma check using persuasion to convince the court to listen to you
    Player: Holy Cow! I rolled a natural 20.
    DM: Ok, the members in court are looking between you and the king confused, not sure what to do.
    Player: I say "guard to my side, time to arrest this treasonous king". Also, remember, I've been secretly bribing the guards for the last month, getting them onto my payroll.
    DM: Ok, roll one final persuasion roll, this time with advantage.


    Now in this case, I'm still not even sure I fully like how it've gone, but at least we have: a roll to convince the guards to let you in, a roll for false documents, a roll of persuasion to get the court on your side, and a roll to get the guards to join you. And all of this would have been happening with them having had to put in some serious work. Keep in mind, the player is playing with fire, since even a single bad role would result in some jail time.


    Finally, I'm also totally fine with:
    Player: "I declare myself king and rightful ruler of this city"
    DM: "ummm ok, persuasion roll"
    Player: "Natural 20!"
    DM: Ok, you find the guards approaching to arrest you.
    Player: but I rolled a 20.
    DM: I know, and they totally believe that, you believe your king. They're not taking you to jail. They're taking you to the insane asylum.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Banned
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why does Persuasion/Deception seem so ridiculously powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadBear View Post
    Player: I bust into the thrown room demanding to speak to the captain of the guard regarding a matter of utmost importance.
    DM: The kings guard attempt to stop you.
    Player: I tell them that I am the true high king and I've brought proof
    DM: ...
    ...the King respondes with a demand that you be arrested for treason and sedition, and hung, drawn and quartered. The guards comply.

    Seriously. The greatest used car salesman that ever lived himself couldnt walk into Buckingham palace and insist that Elizabeth was not (in fact) the Queen, and have anything come if it (other than being arrested).

    If he had've done so afew hundred years ago, he could expect his head on a spike.

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