Need to understand how to use illusion spells

[denthor]

I have no clue other then color spray or invisibility how to use an illusion spell correctly.

Please be detailed in the response currently in a pathfinder game. Looking to get creative

Please list spell, level and core book is about all we get.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Things like this tend to be edition specific, so I moved it.

That said, there are two kinds of illusion spells... a "do the thing" spell, and a "use your imagination" spell.

Color Spray and Invisibility are examples of "do the thing" spells. You cast invisibility, you become invisible. That has certain mechanical effects, and those mechanical effects stay the same. Color Spray does what color spray does... blinding, stunning, knocking out, but I don't remember Pathfinder, specifically.

The "Use Your Imagination" spells are things like Silent Image, and others whose names I forget and the SRD is blocked at work on this computer, and d20 felt the need to change them from the AD&D names. They're spells which say "You may make an illusion of your choice affecting the following senses". Those are more difficult. My rule of thumb has been to treat them like a conditional wish... you can recreate any spell effect you choose, but people who interact with the illusion get a bonus to save against it as an illusion, in addition to any save native to the spell.

Let's use a fairly simple example... you want damage some orcs with your illusions.... but you only have Silent Image, which is a 1st level spell for you (I have no idea what level it is in PF, another reason I moved this to edition-specific section). Now, you might go with Fireball... creating a streaking bead of fire, followed by an explosion, is pretty simple, and you've seen it before. BUT the orcs are going to get some bonuses. First, they get a bonus because you're missing several important senses... you can create a gif of a fireball, but it won't have sound, and it won't cause any sensation of heat. That's going to be a bonus to save. Since Silent Image is lower level than Fireball, I (the DM) also give the orcs a bonus to save. So, the orcs might get one save against the illusion at +4 (no sound +1, no tactile/thermal +1, 2 levels below +2), and those that failed would get a reflex save against the "fireball", just like normal.

Another option you might try is Magic Missile with your silent image. MM is a level 1 spell, as is Silent Image, so no penalty there. There's no necessary additional senses, so there's no penalty there. Assuming you create a number of magic missiles reasonable to your level, you can toss a Magic Missile at them with your silent image, and they only get a save against noticing that it's an illusion.

I find this method lets people playing illusion-heavy characters get creative with their spells, and makes illusion spells versatile, but also adds an additional element of risk to them.

[Troacctid]

Making a Silent Image of a damaging spell seems pretty useless given that it does no damage and will automatically be recognized as an illusion by the target. Are you confusing it with Shadow Evocation?

[BowStreetRunner]

I think the overall description of the main two types of illusion given by @Mark Hall above was pretty dead-on. Here are a couple specific examples for you, based on the first two illusions a sorcerer or wizard would be able to access in Pathfinder.

Ghost Sound (Level 0) this is one of those 'use your imagination' spells. I think it was a favorite of Obi Wan Kenobi in Star Wars: A New Hope. He used it to frighten off some Sand People who had attacked Luke. He also used it to distract a couple of Storm Troopers aboard the Death Star when he was going to deactivate the tractor beam. (Hey, they did say he was a wizard!) It can't be used to create actual speech - that requires Ventriloquism, a 1st level spell - but can be used to give your Silent Image some sound. It has a duration of 1 round per level while Silent Image has a duration of Concentration, so if you do this you want to cast Ghost Sound first as maintaining Silent Image will require using your standard actions each round.

Haunted Fey Aspect (Level 0) this is one of those 'do the thing' spells. Cast it. For one round per level you have DR1/cold iron against a single opponent until you take damage or the spell ends. Oh, and you look pretty bizarre too.

Making a Silent Image of a damaging spell seems pretty useless given that it does no damage and will automatically be recognized as an illusion by the target. Are you confusing it with Shadow Evocation?

The key here is that Silent Image is a Figment. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.

[denthor]

We were being perused by something low level. One put up a fog I cast ghost sound . The DM said I saw nothing so I just kept going after all you the P C would not stop for so why should I.

I sure would stop if I thought I heard 8 armor things coming up.

[LibraryOgre]

Making a Silent Image of a damaging spell seems pretty useless given that it does no damage and will automatically be recognized as an illusion by the target. Are you confusing it with Shadow Evocation?

No, I'm basing it off Phantasmal Force, the 1e/2e spell that was perfectly capable of causing damage, until its subject disbelieved it.

[Segev]

No, I'm basing it off Phantasmal Force, the 1e/2e spell that was perfectly capable of causing damage, until its subject disbelieved it.

...huh, I hadn't realized until just now that phantasmal force didn't exist in 3.5/PF.

Regardless, they're two different spells. Silent image can't do that. It is very specific in what it can do. It makes visual-only illusions that are as realistic as the caster can make them, able to move about at the caster's will. They're still tricky to use well, because the Concentration duration means you're locking yourself up hoping to fool one or more enemies into wasting at least as many actions as you're spending maintaining it.


It's good for fog banks, because you can tell your allies it's an illusion and they can then save at +4 to disbelieve and see through it, allowing them to attack unhindered while the enemy suffers reduced visibility.

It's good for hiding places, especially because you can hide INSIDE it since it isn't really there, while making it look solid and thus not something to look inside.

Not so good for scaring people with monsters, unless you can expect they won't notice its silence.

Situationally useful to try to trick creatures into walking on thin air, by extending a cliff or covering a pit.

If you've an ally capable of throwing his voice, making an illusion of him that you make talk according to his motions and words can be a distraction, or just a safe way to approach dangerous creatures. Even if they save against the illusion, they can still converse with it, and be forced to listen. They have no means, barring defeating the skill check used for throwing the voice, of knowing where your ally's really talking from.

Can be used as a very poor man's mirage arcana, so long as you restrict it to overlaying existing, hard surfaces to give them a facelift.

Can also be used to disguise damage to objects by overlaying them with an illusion of the object as being whole. If the enemy is pounding your city wall, you could put an illusory wall over it that doesn't look damaged even though their catapult just put a hole in it.

An illusory ogre travelling with a caravan might make bandits seeing it from a distance think twice.

[Florian]

Puh. Illusion magic is maybe the hardest to give any RAW-based tips on, as it is *extremely* dependent on how the gm handles monsters/npc/the situation.

[Venger]

I have no clue other then color spray or invisibility how to use an illusion spell correctly.

Please be detailed in the response currently in a pathfinder game. Looking to get creative

Please list spell, level and core book is about all we get.

I wrote a post on illusion a while back:

the name of the game is absolutely to keep your enemies guessing. If I had to sum up playing an illusionist effectively in one word, it would be this:

Confusion.

No, not that one, but rather the concept as a whole.

The problem that a lot of players who are new to playing illusionists (by which I mean characters who specialise in illusion, not just specialised wizards) run into is trying to focus too narrowly on illusions. What do I mean by this?

Well, illusions are dangerous/useful when paired partially with real things, right? If you hide the secret door that you and the party ducked into with, say, a silent image of smooth stone over the seam so that the guards going up and down the hall, it's really only useful because there was a wall there in the first place for it to blend into, right? You wouldn't just cast a wall in the middle of nowhere, that would look silly.

Think of your magic as a whole like this. you don't need to conjure from whole cloth, you just need to embellish slightly on what is already there. Like when you're trying to make a master of disguise, when you're not impersonating a specific individual, but rather want a safe "adventuring face'', you always go for "minor details only" since it grants a +5 to the check.

By the same token of logic, there is often an advantage to being subtle with your illusions rather than bombastic with them. Remember the adage about special effects in movies, a contemporary example of IRL illusions: If you notice it's there, then it's failed.

First timers with illusion spells are tempted to do stuff like make dragons appear to ward off enemies with the x image spells. the shortish duration, limited range they can move around in, and their high likelihood (in most cases) to be "interacted with" in the form of attack makes them generally poor choices.

Think of illusion as an optical illusion (technically, it is anyway) and your job as supplying the enemy with what they are expecting to see rather than what they're not.

You're running down that stone hallway again away from the guard patrol. there is a T intersection at the end. Wat do? Don't make a wall, they know the halls, they'll be entitled to a save or might just open fire. make a silent image of long shadows falling in the opposite direction.

You seldom want to surprise your enemies with illusion. Quite the opposite, you want to lull them into a false sense of security. This makes it much more satisfying (and fun) when you go in for the kill, depending on your preferred method of dispatch.

What I've been talking about up till now is using illusion on its own. But, since it's more of a garnish than a main dish, and a caster can't survive on illusions alone, you'll probably be supplementing it with other kinds of spells too (whether it be through other schools as a wizard, through wands as a beguiler, or through other slots as a sorcerer or chameleon, since I don't know exactly what kind of class you're planning on)

since illusions function best by building off what's "already there" as it were, like by covering the seam for the secret door earlier on, they go really well with conjuration spells.

the consequence for believing an illusory allip is real? waste your actions for a few rounds.

the consequences for failing to believe a real allip is real? enjoy your wis drain.

If you have summoning spells in your repetoire, a great way to enhance their usefulness on the battlefield is by supplementing them with illusions via spells like minor image (especially for monsters like allips, who don't make any discernable sound) or phantom battle.

if you can summon one allip in a battle, you're a real badass, but if you can suddenly summon 2 or 3, then your enemies will be quite disheartened. assuming one makes the save against a fake, after the real one drains some wis from one of them, they won't know what to think, and that can really turn the tide in a battle that you're (in actuality) outnumbered in.

just as making things appear (with the "image" line, nightmare terrain, illusory pit, etc) is an important part of illusion, so too is making things disappear. invisibility is good for more than just getting SA dice an extra time (though it is pretty great at that)

you're running down the hallway (again) from the guard patrol. there is no T intersection or turns. no secret door either, your DM is wise to your ways. wat do? A wall won't work, he reminds you, they patrol this place regularly and know how long the hall is by exactly how many paces they take every day. not wholly unreasonable, you think.

well then, if a fake wall that they can see is out, then the inverse must also be true. wall of stone + invisibility (or invisible spell if your DM is okay with that use of it) = winning. the guards see you going down the hall plain as day and chase after to hit a stone wall. you could probably wrangle a little damage out of that (it'd hurt) and they'd certainly be confused about how to overcome a wall that they can't see (digging/pickaxing their way through would be difficult without being able to ascertain progress) and depending on the height of the ceiling, you might be able to prevent them from climbing over by sealing off your escape route entirely.

while the specifics may vary depending on exactly what kind of character you want to play, just remember:

fake things can only blend in when there's something to blend in with. either use the environment or conjure something. you always want there to be a consequence for the enemy when they disbelieve your illusions.

[AnimeTheCat]

I wrote a post on illusion a while back:

That's pretty well put, except when you started talking about the allip situation. If youre facing any enemy with spellcraft ranks, be weary about allowing that enemy to see you casting any spells. It's a DC 15+spell level spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast.

I know there are ways around this, but you didn't really mention them.

[Venger]

That's pretty well put, except when you started talking about the allip situation. If youre facing any enemy with spellcraft ranks, be weary about allowing that enemy to see you casting any spells. It's a DC 15+spell level spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast.

I know there are ways around this, but you didn't really mention them.

I know the spellcraft dcs, thanks.

Sure. As you can see, it's kind of an old post. There are many ways around this including prebuffing with the summons, conceal spellcasting, or false theurgy, appealing because there is no counter.

[LibraryOgre]

...huh, I hadn't realized until just now that phantasmal force didn't exist in 3.5/PF.

Regardless, they're two different spells. Silent image can't do that. It is very specific in what it can do. It makes visual-only illusions that are as realistic as the caster can make them, able to move about at the caster's will. They're still tricky to use well, because the Concentration duration means you're locking yourself up hoping to fool one or more enemies into wasting at least as many actions as you're spending maintaining it.

Yeah, I didn't have the SRD handy to check the specifics when I wrote it. Severely nerfs the illusionist.

[Segev]

Yeah, I didn't have the SRD handy to check the specifics when I wrote it. Severely nerfs the illusionist.

Yes and no. Illusionists still have non-figment spells. The trouble is that figments are the iconic spells people thinks of when they think, "Illusionist," without thinking "D&D class."

Interestingly, the 1e AD&D Illusionist was a very early take on the sorcerer, if you think about it. Their shadow evocation, shadow conjuration, etc. lines were essentially ways to prepare multiple spells in the same slot, and decide on the fly which one to cast from them. This is likely why it was considered a "better" subclass of magic-user than the flat magic-user by itself, and thus had higher stat reqs.

The biggest problem that faces illusionists living up to the mental image conjured by the word is that the DM knows what is and is not an illusion, and where the rules don't dictate behavior, the DM is suffering from (or enjoying) the same meta-game knowledge abuse that a player who's read the module and thus knows to push the seventh brick in the western hall to unlock the wish-granting birthday cake, and that blowing out the candle grants only the PC that does so one wish, has. Does he ignore his knowledge and not even search? Does he conduct a thorough search HERE, knowing there's something to find and that if he conducts the search by pressing every brick, he'll find it? Does he "just happen" to blow out the candle if he finds it, because he "felt like it," honest?

The DM, faced with the need to "challenge the players" and an illusion he didn't plan for, finds it very easy to have monsters react as if they knew it was illusory. "Yeah, sure, there's a fire there, but they would have charged through it to get to you anyway!" "Well, those skeleton archers you put up there aren't hitting them, so they'll assume it's safe to ignore them."

[Darth Ultron]

As a whole, most Illusion spells that you can be creative with like the Figment type spells really depend on How your DM runs the game.

*Such spells have very little mechanics, so they are 100% open to the DM's whim...much like anything else in the game really. But a lot of DMs a very much ''followers of the rules'' and they do, in fact, want to rule to tell them what to do. So if you toss something in the game with no mechanical rules, the Rules DM is most likely to dismiss it or ignore it.

*Most DM's are generally opposed to the idea that an illusion will radical alter the game reality, in a non mechanical way. Too many players go way to far with illusions and want to make an image of a pillar of fire and then think ''every npc that sees it should run away'' or something like that. But there is no reason to think ''cast illusion = alter game reality''. Most DMs will go with the minimal idea, like a npc might take a step back from a pillar of fire...but they won't turn, scream and run.

*Like most role playing actions in a game, illusions depend on the setting, person and other factors. For example a royal guard at the main gate is unlikely to abandon his post no matter what you do. And you can make just about any sound you like, but the average orc barbarian won't be effected much.


A great thing to make is treasure. In general, this will work on most foes that value treasure. The average bandit or goblin or even farmer will stop and walk over to a bag of gold. Just think, if you were walking down the street and saw a wallet on he sidewalk...what would you do? Even better, you can make any treasure of the type the foe might want.

[LibraryOgre]

Yes and no. Illusionists still have non-figment spells. The trouble is that figments are the iconic spells people thinks of when they think, "Illusionist," without thinking "D&D class."
...
The DM, faced with the need to "challenge the players" and an illusion he didn't plan for, finds it very easy to have monsters react as if they knew it was illusory. "Yeah, sure, there's a fire there, but they would have charged through it to get to you anyway!" "Well, those skeleton archers you put up there aren't hitting them, so they'll assume it's safe to ignore them."

Which is why turning the spells into figments is a big nerf of the school. The spell line goes from being one that can attempt to do anything to being a spell which can do one thing.

[Florian]

Which is why turning the spells into figments is a big nerf of the school. The spell line goes from being one that can attempt to do anything to being a spell which can do one thing.

Well, shadow-type illusionists are quite powerful in PF, with an added utility meta magic feat that converts figments to shadow. Sad thing is the "core only" thing in the OP request.

[Mordaedil]

In my current game I am playing a sorcerer with charm person and silent image as my two spells starting out. I've had mixed success with them because they both kinda rely on how the DM run the game with them.

First thing I did with Silent image was that I made a giant dragon from memory of reading about dragons from fantasy novels, so it was a very unrealistic dragon without any weight or prescence. It had a problem in that it didn't at all phaze the goblins we were fighting, since they were preoccupied with the danger in their faces. I learned from this that I should possibly use Silent Image as an early wall instead, making barriers that force the enemies to interact with them, making them need to pass saves and move accordingly. It also then does not need to produce any heat or emit any sound. Just make it a wall that is full of spikes so that they don't want to touch the wall and figure out it is a fake wall.

Charm Person doesn't apply to your question directly, but the scenario represents one of the dangers I've experienced with spells that rely on saves to inform their behavior, so I'll put it here as a warning. We were in a tavern basically getting settled into our characters when a man that was obviously looking to start a fight approached. I cast charm person on him, he failed his save and I told him I'd buy them a round and we could just talk and have a good time. Sadly, the wizard accompanying this guy succeeded his spellcraft check, realized I had charmed their leader and went up and smacked him and told him he was charmed, which broke the spell. He then cast Color Spray and knocked me and the battledancer out for the rest of the bar fight.

Basically, be damned sure how your DM will run these spells before you use them and if you need to rely on them, use them in a situation where the same can't happen.

[AnimeTheCat]

I know the spellcraft dcs, thanks.

Sure. As you can see, it's kind of an old post. There are many ways around this including prebuffing with the summons, conceal spellcasting, or false theurgy, appealing because there is no counter.

Sorry if that sounded like I was targeting you with that comment. I was trying to expand upon it for the OP who was asking questions. The last part even I am vague on and would have had to do research to answer properly, but was only noting that such methods existed (like you explained, conceal spellcasting, etc.) and that you had only omitted them (likely for brevity and simplicity to provide a broad overview and not get in the weeds too much).

I intended to simply identify a potential problem one might face when trying to blend true summons with illusory summons, not make any claim that you were not learned in the field of illusions or magic in general (because, clearly by the post you wrote, you very much are learned).

[Venger]

Sorry if that sounded like I was targeting you with that comment. I was trying to expand upon it for the OP who was asking questions. The last part even I am vague on and would have had to do research to answer properly, but was only noting that such methods existed (like you explained, conceal spellcasting, etc.) and that you had only omitted them (likely for brevity and simplicity to provide a broad overview and not get in the weeds too much).

I intended to simply identify a potential problem one might face when trying to blend true summons with illusory summons, not make any claim that you were not learned in the field of illusions or magic in general (because, clearly by the post you wrote, you very much are learned).

Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.

Your hypothesis is correct, I omitted this because at the time it wasn't really relevant to the question I was replying to, but they are good things to keep in mind if NPCs commonly try to identify your spells

[Segev]

Which is why turning the spells into figments is a big nerf of the school. The spell line goes from being one that can attempt to do anything to being a spell which can do one thing.

I again would need to hunt down a 1e book, but I think the figments were in there, too. The shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells are also still present.

This isn't an issue that's new to 3e. Illusions have always been subject to DMs' ability and willingness to abstain from using metaknowledge in judging NPC actions.

Sadly, the wizard accompanying this guy succeeded his spellcraft check, realized I had charmed their leader and went up and smacked him and told him he was charmed, which broke the spell.

That's actually cheating on the part of the DM. The charm person spell only breaks when you or your apparent allies attack the subject, not when anybody attacks him. In fact, the enemy party leader should have been mad at his wizard ally for hitting him and besmirching your good character. Heck, you could have even admitted it and said, "but isn't this better? A fight doesn't help us, and now we're all good friends. I hope we'll continue to be after the spell wears off. Sorry I had to do that, man. Drink?" A Diplomacy check against the already-Friendly leader should pass pretty easily off of that.

[LibraryOgre]

I again would need to hunt down a 1e book, but I think the figments were in there, too.

They weren't; figment as an explicit category is new to 3e.

From "Phantasmal Force", in the 1e PH:

Explanation/Description: When this spell is cast, the magic-user creates a visual illusion which will affect all believing creatures which view the phantasmal force, even to the extent of suffering damage from phantasmal missiles or from falling into an illusory pit full of sharp spikes.

[Segev]

They weren't; figment as an explicit category is new to 3e.

From "Phantasmal Force", in the 1e PH:

I know the category was a 3e thing. But so was "shadow" as a category (which phantasmal force would have fallen under).

Can you do me a favor and see if silent image or any of its higher-level siblings are in the 1e spell lists? I honestly cannot remember.

[LibraryOgre]

I know the category was a 3e thing. But so was "shadow" as a category (which phantasmal force would have fallen under).

Can you do me a favor and see if silent image or any of its higher-level siblings are in the 1e spell lists? I honestly cannot remember.

They aren't. Phantasmal Force was the similar idea... an image, of concentration duration, with only visual sense qualities. Improved Phantasmal Force is Image+Sound, became Minor Image. Spectral Force became Major Image.

A key difference with shadow spells and what became the figment spells was that shadow spells were quasi-real... if I used Shadow Monsters, it would have 20% of the HP and do 20% of the damage as real damage... so if my shadow ogre hit you, you would think you took 10 damage, and would react as if you did... but if you somehow saw through the illusion, you'd still take 2 damage. With a Spectral Force ogre, you'd think you took 10 damage, and would react as if you did, but once you saw through the illusion, you'd have taken no damage.

[Segev]

In that case, yes, definitely more powerful. No "interaction" auto-disbelief, either.

[BowStreetRunner]

Dontcha just hate it when a bunch of old fuddy-duddies hijack your thread to talk about how things were back in the old days?

[Segev]

Dontcha just hate it when a bunch of old fuddy-duddies hijack your thread to talk about how things were back in the old days?

Fair criticism. I would be interested in more perspectives on 3.5/PF illusions and how to use them. I have oft found it really hard to pull off in practice simply because DMs seem to treat them like they're obviously fake. Sometimes unintentionally.

[BowStreetRunner]

Fair criticism. I would be interested in more perspectives on 3.5/PF illusions and how to use them. I have oft found it really hard to pull off in practice simply because DMs seem to treat them like they're obviously fake. Sometimes unintentionally.

I think that's something you need to work out with the DM. I've always seen RPGs as more of an act of cooperative storytelling myself, so when I DM I think I am less tempted to fall into this trap and more tempted to think in terms of how to make the encounter more interesting. But I've dealt with DMs at both extremes - from the DM who plays as if it is PvDM and a TPK is his goal, to a DM who just goes so out of his way to 'make the players happy' that it actually becomes less fun because there is no challenge.

How a DM deals with NPC reactions to illusions is really a subset of the issue of how a DM deals with meta-gaming on his own part.

[denthor]

Dontcha just hate it when a bunch of old fuddy-duddies hijack your thread to talk about how things were back in the old days?

I am one of the old fuddy-duddies. At 48 I have played off and on for 30 plus years.

[BowStreetRunner]

I am one of the old fuddy-duddies. At 48 I have played off and on for 30 plus years.

Wow, you ARE an old man! ;) You got me by at least a full year!

[Mordaedil]

That's actually cheating on the part of the DM. The charm person spell only breaks when you or your apparent allies attack the subject, not when anybody attacks him. In fact, the enemy party leader should have been mad at his wizard ally for hitting him and besmirching your good character. Heck, you could have even admitted it and said, "but isn't this better? A fight doesn't help us, and now we're all good friends. I hope we'll continue to be after the spell wears off. Sorry I had to do that, man. Drink?" A Diplomacy check against the already-Friendly leader should pass pretty easily off of that.

He really wanted the bar-fight to happen is my conclusion, but we got into a bit of a discussion afterwards where I lamented my choice of spells as not being very useful. Of course, this happened post-game, because I don't care to ruin everyones time mid-game. The last few time I used it, it went a lot better, albeit I still consider just changing my load-out to be a pure blaster instead of a utility sorcerer. Being a blaster is a pretty good opportunity in his game anyway, he has a list of feats that every player could pick one of, and the one I picked gave me unlimited use cantrips and my choice of a 1st level spell to be unlimited use. Sorcerer retraining can swap out this spell as well and it's currently assigned to charm person.

But this is getting a bit off-topic.