V's Final Act and redemption is coming soon

[PopeLinus1]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're different in all ways. Given that Redcloak first acquired the Crimson Mantle, it didn't do anything noteworthy to him until he put it on, I'd say that it only has an effect on whoever is currently wearing it, and taking it off is thus equivalent to having it be destroyed from the perspective of losing access to any special powers that it grants.

Or maybe it hadn’t bonded with him until he put it on.

[Peelee]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're different in all ways. Given that Redcloak first acquired the Crimson Mantle, it didn't do anything noteworthy to him until he put it on, I'd say that it only has an effect on whoever is currently wearing it, and taking it off is thus equivalent to having it be destroyed from the perspective of losing access to any special powers that it grants.

It could potentially have a lingering effect for a set amount of time. From a fluff perspective, this could be so that the bearer may do things such as bathe or copulate without needing to be perpetual tied to the cloak. Of course, in a story it would be rather anticlimactic unless played for laughs after a day or so.

[RatElemental]

V thought magic could solve everything. It can't. V cracked magic more than it is. Number of people who cracked magic more than it is >0. Magic isn't all it's cracked up to be*.

I don't see where you are going with your metaphor there, what's the workshop supposed to be?

*To be clear "not all it's cracked up to be" does mean "not living up to peole's expectations", yes?

Magic very much can do literally anything given sufficient research, power, resources and time. If you count psionics as magic, it can even let a character redo their entire build, and other such shenanigans.

[Fyraltari]

Magic very much can do literally anything given sufficient research, power, resources and time. If you count psionics as magic, it can even let a character redo their entire build, and other such shenanigans.

Magic can't bring back Kyri's love. And before anyone says that there are love potions or mind control spells or the Glibness potion: That would be rape.

[zimmerwald1915]

Magic can't bring back Kyri's love. And before anyone says that there are love potions or mind control spells or the Glibness potion: That would be rape.

So would ordinary persuasion, inasmuch as consent must be freely given, and persuasion is the exercise of outside influence. Any course of action other than cutting off all contact forever is treading close to the line, frankly.

[Themrys]

If you interpret V as female, then hir losing hir magic so that hir apprentice baker ex-spouse doesn't feel inferior to hir anymore and remarries hir would be the worst, most cliched ending ever.

In fact, a female character losing her magic skill (or, really, any skill that makes her powerful and independent) is a male fantasy that I hope will NOT make an appearance in OotS

So ... I really hope not.


I would much prefer it if Vaarsuvius showed hir character development by solving an important plot problem without magic.

That would also be better character development. Consistently acting in a wiser way than previously would be much harder for V than one heroic sacrifice.

[Kish]

If you interpret V as female, then hir losing hir magic so that hir apprentice baker ex-spouse doesn't feel inferior to hir anymore and remarries hir would be the worst, most cliched ending ever.

Doesn't that presume that Inkyrius is male?

[RatElemental]

If you interpret V as female, then hir losing hir magic so that hir apprentice baker ex-spouse doesn't feel inferior to hir anymore and remarries hir would be the worst, most cliched ending ever.

Did I miss something that points to Inky being mad about the whole magic thing because of an inferiority complex? I always thought it was because V took Inky for granted and focused super hard on the magic, ignoring important occasions, obvious attempts on Inky's part to spend time together, and then there was the time they sold their soul (kinda) and Inky seemed pretty scared and upset about that.

[brian 333]

V doesn't need to lose hir magic or solve pproblems without it. Magic is the symptom, not the disease.

Vaarsuvius lacks empathy. S/he cannot imagine hirself in another's shoes, or conceive of acting against hir self interest for the happiness of others. Magic is just an excuse; s/he uses it as the reason s/he doesn't have time for family.

Refer to hir confession scene with Roy. This was the first step in hir redemption. S/he realized there was something more important than hirself at stake, and that Roy required an explanation, not to excuse hir, but to prepare for the crisis of hir absence at a critical moment.

It was the first time s/he acted in the interest of someone other than hirself, (except arguably in the uncontested divorce, but that could be interpreted as relinquishing responsibility for others rather than releasing them from obligations to hir.)

V's redemption can only come when s/he chooses vulnerability over power because it benefits someone else. Whether this is done with or without magic is not relevant.

[Peelee]

If you interpret V as female, then hir losing hir magic so that hir apprentice baker ex-spouse doesn't feel inferior to hir anymore and remarries hir would be the worst, most cliched ending ever.

In fact, a female character losing her magic skill (or, really, any skill that makes her powerful and independent) is a male fantasy that I hope will NOT make an appearance in OotS

So ... I really hope not.


I would much prefer it if Vaarsuvius showed hir character development by solving an important plot problem without magic.

That would also be better character development. Consistently acting in a wiser way than previously would be much harder for V than one heroic sacrifice.

In addition to the other comments about this...

First off, isn't V canonically genderqueer? It doesn't matter if someone interprets him as female. Second, are you suggesting that a female character would need to be given magic in order to be independent? Is V not independent without magic, regardless of gender?

[zimmerwald1915]

Second, are you suggesting that a female character would need to be given magic in order to be independent?

Clearly not, as the parenthetical "or, really, any skill that makes her powerful and independent" demonstrates. Vaarsuvius's peculiar character history means that she uses magic to exercise power.

Is V not independent without magic, regardless of gender?

Vaarsuvius is not independent. She owes a debt to the Archfiends, and is both practically subordinate to and morally abased before Roy.

[Peelee]

Clearly not, as the parenthetical "or, really, any skill that makes her powerful and independent" demonstrates. Vaarsuvius's peculiar character history means that she uses magic to exercise power.

The parenthetical to cover any potentiality. With V specifically, though, magic seems to be the linchpin behind the "makes him powerful and independent" bit.

Vaarsuvious is not independent. She owes a debt to the Archfiends, and is both practically subordinate to and morally abased before, Roy.

The debt has little effective bearing on her independence (though it's your most persuasive argument); the fiends can cash in at any time, and as they themselves said, "what are you going to do, not do anything important ever again?" At worst, they can suspend her agency for a small, finite amount of time. V's subordination to Roy is voluntary, and V's moral abasement has no bearing on his independence.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvious is not independent. She owes a debt to the Archfiends, and is both practically subordinate to and morally abased before, Roy.

That's an excellent point (extraneous o's in the name of the vile elf aside). Vaarsuvius' magic makes them, in one particular and pretty shallow definition, powerful; they can throw explosions around. It also shows a pattern of making them dependent, not independent; Vaarsuvius' decision to pursue rapid increase in magical power led immediately to subservience to Roy.

And in general, for Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius to ever be "a male fantasy," the story would need to be thoroughly edited: establish that Inkyrius is male, establish that Inkyrius feels some inferiority to Vaarsuvius which they never indicated, establish that that inferiority--and not "they leased their soul to fiends, were more interested in revenge on our already-defeated-and-dead attacker than in helping us beyond the level of making sure we wouldn't die in the next minute, and committed mass murder in front of us"--is the reason Inkyrius divorced Vaarsuvius, establish that the belief "you will never overshadow me again" and not "you will never act like a vicious egomaniac again" is the reason for Inkyrius taking Vaarsuvius back. It would, in fact, require assassinating Inkyrius' character quite completely just to make the story fit a particular complaint about it. (And establishing them as male.)

[Fyraltari]

So would ordinary persuasion, inasmuch as consent must be freely given, and persuasion is the exercise of outside influence. Any course of action other than cutting off all contact forever is treading close to the line, frankly.

Soif I understand that correctly, every couple that rekindle a relationship is treading close to the line, according to you?
Would you really call V genuinely changing for the better, and Inkyrius after seeing that change deciding to give V a second chance close to rape. I really don't think that is what you mean but that is the only way I can read your comment so please develop.

That would also be better character development. Consistently acting in a wiser way than previously would be much harder for V than one heroic sacrifice.

Wouldn't sacrificing V's power (linked to an unhealthy obsession) for a greater good be an example of acting wiser.

V doesn't need to lose hir magic or solve pproblems without it. Magic is the symptom, not the disease.

Vaarsuvius lacks empathy. S/he cannot imagine hirself in another's shoes, or conceive of acting against hir self interest for the happiness of others. Magic is just an excuse; s/he uses it as the reason s/he doesn't have time for family.

Refer to hir confession scene with Roy. This was the first step in hir redemption. S/he realized there was something more important than hirself at stake, and that Roy required an explanation, not to excuse hir, but to prepare for the crisis of hir absence at a critical moment.

It was the first time s/he acted in the interest of someone other than hirself, (except arguably in the uncontested divorce, but that could be interpreted as relinquishing responsibility for others rather than releasing them from obligations to hir.)

V's redemption can only come when s/he chooses vulnerability over power because it benefits someone else. Whether this is done with or without magic is not relevant.

However sacrificing magic would be an effective way to demonstrate that evolution.

In addition to the other comments about this...

First off, isn't V canonically genderqueer?

I don't think so. If I remember correctly the "V is definitely genderqueer" come from an author's comment describing Tarquin's view of the order (and why Elan was the only "logical" leader). Maybe The giant slipped and that is what V is in Rich's head or he didn't either way I don't find it particularly convincing. V's gender identity and sexual orientation are meant to be open to interpretation. I don't think there'll be a canon answer at any point.

[zimmerwald1915]

Soif I understand that correctly, every couple that rekindle a relationship is treading close to the line, according to you?

It goes against your ex's last-expressed wish that you go away and leave them alone, doesn't it? That being the case, yes, I'd say that attempting to rekindle a relationship is a suspect activity.

But then, I consider attempting to initiate a relationship with a stranger to be fraught with moral hazard, as you can't possibly know what they might find unwelcome, hurtful, or traumatic.

[Fyraltari]

It goes against your ex's last-expressed wish that you go away and leave them alone, doesn't it? That being the case, yes, I'd say that attempting to rekindle a relationship is a suspect activity.

Good point. However these things have happened.

But then, I consider attempting to initiate a relationship with a stranger to be fraught with moral hazard, as you can't possibly know what they might find unwelcome, hurtful, or traumatic.

So do I, but Varsuvius and Inkyrius are not stranger to one another by any definition.

[zimmerwald1915]

Good point. However these things have happened.

Many things that ought not to happen, happen nevertheless. All the time.

So do I, but Varsuvius and Inkyrius are not stranger to one another by any definition.

That's debatable, both as a general proposition (how much can we really say we know another person) and in this specific instance (how well could Inkyrius have possibly known Vaarsuvius, given the "irretrievable breakdown" of their relationship?). But I offered that up only as an indication of where my head's at when it comes to such things, not as a description of the actual relationships between characters in the comic.

[Justyz]

If you interpret V as female, then hir losing hir magic so that hir apprentice baker ex-spouse doesn't feel inferior to hir anymore and remarries hir would be the worst, most cliched ending ever.

In fact, a female character losing her magic skill (or, really, any skill that makes her powerful and independent) is a male fantasy that I hope will NOT make an appearance in OotS

So ... I really hope not.

What a bizarre comment. I don't even know how a female character losing her power and independence is "a male fantasy", but that this would happen for her to re-marry her ex-spouse (of unidentified gender) was never even implied in my OP. In fact, it's completely absent from it, since for me any redemption is personal, not reliant on a third party. It is between you and your conscience.

Honestly, injecting gender issues to this thread seems very forced. From your use of "hir" (and this comment) I assume this is an important part of your life. But you are projecting, and hijacking the discussion to fit your narrative that apparently everything revolves around gender roles.

In my OP I've clearly indicated both the reason and the context to which I think V losing her powers would be appropriate. They have nothing to do with her (or his) gender or her spouse (that has also never expressed any inferiority complexes, again your complete projection, unbased on the comic at all). They have everything to do with the character's personal ambition and motivation (to obtain total mastery of magic) and facing the consequences of her decisions.

If anything, I took the stand that empowers V as a complete character, with internal motives, and personal responsibility for her actions. You stripped away her agency, interpreting her (again, with an aggressive, bizarre projection) as motivated by outside means, and specifically her spouse's whims, instead of seeking redemption, first and foremost, for the redemption sake, for its inherent importance.

[Fyraltari]

Many things that ought not to happen, happen nevertheless. All the time.

You think people realizing their mistakes, becoming better, being forgiven and falling in love again ought not to happen? Odd.

[zimmerwald1915]

You think people realizing their mistakes, becoming better, being forgiven and falling in love again ought not to happen? Odd.

The last two items ought not to happen, anyway, for the reasons already stated. And if you've truly remade yourself, you should have no trouble accepting that you should leave your old life behind and start anew.

[Fyraltari]

The last two items out not to happen, anyway, for the reasons already stated. And if you've truly remade yourself, you should have no trouble accepting that you should leave your old life behind and start anew.

I am not convinced. I understand this doesn't happen often and in some cases simply was peopledeluded themselves but if people truly find happiness with each other again, who are you to say they shouldn't?

[KorvinStarmast]

I would much prefer it if Vaarsuvius showed hir character development by solving an important plot problem without magic. That would also be better character development.

It would be an interesting twist, and one that I think Rich is capable of pulling off well.

I always thought it was because V took Inky for granted and focused super hard on the magic, ignoring important occasions, obvious attempts on Inky's part to spend time together, and then there was the time they sold their soul (kinda) and Inky seemed pretty scared and upset about that.

Yeah, that, the "workaholic, to obsessed with career" trope.

The last two items out not to happen, anyway, for the reasons already stated. And if you've truly remade yourself, you should have no trouble accepting that you should leave your old life behind and start anew.

That's one way to look at it. Another is my old Navy buddy, T, whose wife left him while he was at sea. They had been married for 5 years. He lived in a motel for half a year, then got orders on the other side of the country and (as they say?) started again. Four years later, they run into each other and fall in love all over again and remarried. Been together 28 years on the second attempt as of last fall. Unusual? Yeah.

[Peelee]

That's one way to look at it. Another is my old Navy buddy, T, whose wife left him while he was at sea. They had been married for 5 years. He lived in a motel for half a year, then got orders on the other side of the country and (as they say?) started again. Four years later, they run into each other and fall in love all over again and remarried. Been together 28 years on the second attempt as of last fall. Unusual? Yeah.

What horrible people, apparently.

[zimmerwald1915]

What horrible people, apparently.

"Ran into each other" sounds more like happenstance than an affirmative reaching-out by T to his wife (who "left him," was thus the party who last expressed the wish to cut ties, and would thus have been entitled to have affirmatively reached out).

[Peelee]

"Ran into each other" sounds more like happenstance than an affirmative reaching-out by T to his wife (who "left him," was thus the party who last expressed the wish to cut ties, and would thus have been entitled to have affirmatively reached out).

Well, it's good to know that you recognize that a breakup can have more nuance than "never wish to speak to the other person ever again," at least.