Jessica Jones season 2

[Cen]

Halfway through and boy oh boy is it boring!
This show was my favourite Marvel Netflix and now I'm forcing myself to finish this.
I don't want to saound like Tennants fanboy but I miss him so much...

Opinions?

[ErebusVonMori]

I thoroughly enjoyed it but I do have one comment 'GOD DAMMIT TRISH!'

[Jeivar]

Is it as intensely depressing as the first season? I gave up on that after four episodes that were all about exploring human misery, and from what I've read things didn't exactly let up.

[thorgrim29]

It's.... differently depressing I guess. It's basically a character study about how much what you do defines who you are and mother-daughter relationships. I enjoyed it, but it's a very jarring departure from Defenders. Actually I think there is not a single reference to Defenders in there unless you count Jeri mentioning Rand and Foggy having one scene. Which isn't a bad thing, Defenders wasn't great, but you'd think at some point Luke would pick up the phone and ask if she needs a hand with the big very public crisis.

Spoiler: details

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The main problem I think is that there's no clear antagonist, the whole season is basically about Jess and Trish projecting their issues on a few very flawed but ultimately sympathetic characters. Jess spends the whole season treating Dr Karl like he's a monster when he dedicated his life to saving lives, left the project when it turned too unethical and then spent a decade trying to fix Anissa's side effects (not that he's a good guy, he did frame a mentally handicapped man who trusted him for murder after all but I see him more as a mad scientist who kept telling himself that he could fix it then as a clear cut villain). I get that she wants to think that somebody's responsible for her issues and that he's sort of her mom's Killgrave but come on... And Trish is just a hot mess all around. What they did with her fiance was clever, I liked it but the rest of it meh. It's like they don't want Jess to have to deal with her alcoholism so they play up Trish and Malcolm's addiction issues instead. And now she has superpowers (I'd bet on catlike agility from that last scene and since she's Hellcat). I'm guessing next season she'll get in over her head and they'll reconnect over Jessica bailing her out of whatever problem she gets herself into.

It makes for an interesting character study but it's not much stretched out over 13 episodes. Malcolm's plot doesn't really go anywhere that I believe for a minute will stick (yeah sure messiah complex Malcolm pulls a Barney, cuts his hair, suits up, and starts working for douchelord...) and Jeri's is just chilling (I mean damn... you do not want to screw with that woman).

Also, does Jessica not remember punching ninjas off a 100 or so feet high platform into a cavern that soon after exploded? Pretty sure she has more then 3 people's blood on her hands. I liked the Killgrave hallucinations though, especially the "I'll be here if you need me" at the end.

One thing that's kind of interesting (and I might be imagining things) is that they kept casting men as sexist bad guys either jealous of Jess's strength or manipulating Trish when they really weren't. Mr Super goes from bigoted ******* who can't handle a woman being stronger then him to sensitive family man love interest, Griffin goes from in on the IGH conspiracy to all around stand up guy who deserves better then he gets, Simpson goes from jealous stalker to (still creepy) guy who wants to atone for what he did, Karl goes from the leader of an incredibly unethical military super-soldier program with a monster on a leash to a (still unethical and way too arrogant) guy who was trying to save the world and had his dream fall apart around him, hell even Chang is still a **** but he never goes over the villain line IMO, Jess did attack him with little provocation and wanting to be the one to avenge his brother in arms and saving cops from getting pulped isn't exactly mustache twirling territory, even Stirling seems like he's using Jess but it's more likely that he was being honest with her I think. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

[Lord Joeltion]

Already finished bc GF and I are huge Jessica fans. First Season was her favourite ever, and one of the top 3 for me.

And boy, we didn't know how much a Netflix series could disappoint us, until yesterday. We are... depressed. Not because of the series, but because we felt cheated. Although the characters and all are basically the same, the thematic now is completely different and extremely boring in comparison. That's all I can say without getting into spoilery territory.

So I guess it went from one of the best to one of the worst? I dunno, it almost feels like TLJ; where you kinda expected something lesser because the bar was set too high already.... but you never knew how low they were aiming in the end. Like, shoot on the foot kinda low. It's sad, specially considering I even managed to find Iron Fist entertaining enough. This one, not so much.

Spoiler: Mini Rant

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It was like watching Mom, except they removed all the jokes and just left all the crudely cliched drama!

[Dr.Samurai]

I liked it a lot. It starts off kind of slow, and I don’t think many people will like it. But it kind of hits close to home for me so I could really appreciate it. Jessica is already the Defenser that most resonates with me, and seeing her go through the story beats in this season made that even more so.

It’s got issues, but overall I liked it. I’ll add more when I’m back at my computer.

[Pex]

It's.... differently depressing I guess. It's basically a character study about how much what you do defines who you are and mother-daughter relationships. I enjoyed it, but it's a very jarring departure from Defenders. Actually I think there is not a single reference to Defenders in there unless you count Jeri mentioning Rand and Foggy having one scene. Which isn't a bad thing, Defenders wasn't great, but you'd think at some point Luke would pick up the phone and ask if she needs a hand with the big very public crisis.

It's subtle, but there is a reference. In talking to Trish in the first episode she says "heroes die".

I'm a few episodes in. I'm not bored, but I understand the sentiment. The show is all drama very little action.

Spoiler

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I am annoyed Trish's boyfriend is not squeaky clean. I suppose he couldn't be for the character to have a reason for existing, but it would have been nice if he was. Don't know yet his full deal.

[FreddyNoNose]

Halfway through and boy oh boy is it boring!
This show was my favourite Marvel Netflix and now I'm forcing myself to finish this.
I don't want to saound like Tennants fanboy but I miss him so much...

Opinions?

I am enjoying it.

[Dragonus45]

After the garbage fire that was the first season I’m really loving this one. Easily one of the best turnarounds from bad first season to great second I’ve ever seen.

[GAZ]

I liked this as a drama. It's not superhero action or vigilante thriller and Jessica herself makes that very clear at the start. It's about identity, legacy, family, and nature vs nurture with super action and thriller beats.

Like most of these Marvel Netflix shows, it suffers a little for being stretched to 13 episodes long.

[BWR]

The first five episodes were pretty good. Then it started to drag. I've gotten to ep 10 and am no longer wanting to binge it. It seems more like a chore than a pleasure to finish at this point. In general I've liked s2 better than s1, primarily because Kilgrave isn't around. The detective aspect is fun, but JJ is as dull and off-putting as she was in the first season. she isn't as likeable as LC and her support cast isn't as solid as Daredevil's. so far, Malcom and Hogarth are the only enjoyable ones.

[JeenLeen]

I'm not done with the season yet, but probably about 2/3 through.

Spoiler: Kilgrave or lack thereof

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Okay. I originally wrote:
"From what I had heard of it, I somehow got the impression that Kilgrave would be in it in the sense of showing up as a voice in Jessica's head. Sorta a tormenting monologue, to represent her self-loathing or self-doubt, something like that.
I think the season so far is pretty good, and such probably would have hurt it, but I admit I am sad not to hear a charming, sociopathic Englishman."

But then I foolishly opened the spoiler someone had posted and saw he does show up like that at some point (unless I misread), so I'm spoilering this instead.

One question I had, not about the show itself, but it's writer/director set-up. I started looking at the names of the writer/director for the episode, and it appears to be different people for most (every?) episode. Like, Mary Watson is the director for one episode, and Susan Smith for the next one. Similar thing with writers. (I haven't really checked in detail, but just noting differences over 3-4 episodes.)
Is it common for directors/writers to change in the same season? It seems like that would be disruptive. I can see a lot of writers for a comedy sit-com, but it seems like it'd hurt the narrative for a more dramatic type of serial like the Marvel Netflix shows tend to be.

[Lord Joeltion]

One question I had, not about the show itself, but it's writer/director set-up. I started looking at the names of the writer/director for the episode, and it appears to be different people for most (every?) episode. Like, Mary Watson is the director for one episode, and Susan Smith for the next one. Similar thing with writers. (I haven't really checked in detail, but just noting differences over 3-4 episodes.)
Is it common for directors/writers to change in the same season? It seems like that would be disruptive. I can see a lot of writers for a comedy sit-com, but it seems like it'd hurt the narrative for a more dramatic type of serial like the Marvel Netflix shows tend to be.

It appears there's a bunch of series which directors are traded every other episode in a lot of Netflix series. According to my GF, this is a rather common practice for a special kind of series, like the Marvel Netflix or Criminal Minds (she knows a lot more about cinema than me, so I take her word for granted).

I don't know if this leads to any cohesion issues (after all, the writers are still the same throughout the whole season); and in the other Marvel series this wasn't an issue. But.... I think this season of JJ lacks a certain artistic cohesion* which I suspect is what causes the drag for most people. I think it's on the writing though, not so much on the direction.

*I'd have to abuse spoilers to explain that idea.

[JeenLeen]

A question about Malcolm, which I won't spoiler since it's all season 1. I just forgot.

Is this right:
Malcolm was originally forced to become a meth addict by Kilgrave. Just after he got hooked and dependent on it, and living close to Jessica, Kilgrave controlled him more loosely since he knew the drugs would do most of the control for him.
Kilgrave chose him since he was who Jessica saved the night Kilgrave met her. Did he control her later on (after Jessica got free), or start controlling him that night?

I'm a little confused since it seems (10 episodes in, I think) that Malcolm is on the outs with his family still. But I would think the public news about Kilgrave, especially after the Defenders fiascos and stuff like alien invasions from the movies showing 'yep, super stuff is happening, in case you do not believe one crazy lady', would make it pretty easy for him to reconcile with his family.
"Yes, dad, mom, I screwed up, and I own up to my part on it. Recovery was/is stuff. BUT I dropped out and became a drug addict because someone literally mind controlled me into it. That's the dude my boss killed."

I get that feelings don't heal instantly, but it seemed a REAL good (and true) excuse to start the healing process.
But maybe something happens in the last few episodes, and Malcolm was just too scared to talk to his folks.

[JadedDM]

Malcolm was originally forced to become a meth addict by Kilgrave. Just after he got hooked and dependent on it, and living close to Jessica, Kilgrave controlled him more loosely since he knew the drugs would do most of the control for him.
Kilgrave chose him since he was who Jessica saved the night Kilgrave met her. Did he control her later on (after Jessica got free), or start controlling him that night?

That's right. Kilgrave started controlling him recently, not when Jessica saved him.

[FreddyNoNose]

I finished the second season last night. Very good.

It's not superhero action or vigilante thriller

According to whom?

[Lord Joeltion]

According to whom?

Tropes in general?

Spoiler

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-No main villain, no clear "hero" either (making it less heroic)
-Narrative is dominated by personal stories and not necessarily related to morals, but social dynamics (making it more akin to the drama genre)
-The few moral issues that do arise are directly related to relationships and how one does feel about it; not how to resolve those human issues (again, more akin to a drama series)
-The ending message is more about how the main character does cope with her human condition more than about making a judgement about society (unlike Season 1, which is exactly the opposite*)
-No "climax", from an action genre PoV
-And there's literally no reason to call it a thriller. There's no real psycho or life/death situations the protagonists need to face.

*S 1 final message: "sometimes you have to do what you have to do, and cope with it, even if no one understands what you are doing"
S 2 final message: "even if you do what is correct, it hurts, and you will have to learn to heal on your own"

[FreddyNoNose]

Tropes in general?

Spoiler

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-No main villain, no clear "hero" either (making it less heroic)
-Narrative is dominated by personal stories and not necessarily related to morals, but social dynamics (making it more akin to the drama genre)
-The few moral issues that do arise are directly related to relationships and how one does feel about it; not how to resolve those human issues (again, more akin to a drama series)
-The ending message is more about how the main character does cope with her human condition more than about making a judgement about society (unlike Season 1, which is exactly the opposite*)
-No "climax", from an action genre PoV
-And there's literally no reason to call it a thriller. There's no real psycho or life/death situations the protagonists need to face.

*S 1 final message: "sometimes you have to do what you have to do, and cope with it, even if no one understands what you are doing"
S 2 final message: "even if you do what is correct, it hurts, and you will have to learn to heal on your own"

Tropes and tropes followers are not respected.

[Pex]

Spoiler: Trish's Boyfriend

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I may owe Griffin an apology. Apparently the cloak and dagger he was doing was a set up for a marriage proposal party and not anything sinister for either IGH or journalism espionage. His squeaky clean image is restored, for now.

[S@tanicoaldo]

I miss the nigthtime, too much dayligth made it lose it's noir feeling. :/

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: Spoilers!

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Malcolm - I like the dynamic between Jessica and Malcolm. I like that he's not only trying to keep himself busy to avoid falling off the wagon, but he's also genuinely interested in building himself up. Jessica is helping him, but in her usual way, which is to say minimally and so long as it doesn't disrupt her life. She's willing to stop something terrible from happening to you but then... you do you, she's not interested in taking on the responsibility. I don't think they needed to introduce the romance angle between him and Trish; I can see Malcolm wanting to help her just because she was giving him the opportunity to do more, which Jessica wasn't doing. But it's not a big deal. My only minor quibble is that I feel like his arc here is similar to Foggy's, where he has a falling out with the main character and ends up working for Jeri. But I prefer characters that are competent and have agency, so I would rather this than Malcolm just putzing around all the time.

Trish - Well, I'm not a fan of characters falling to addiction, or having a one track motivation that they can't shake, so I wasn't crazy about the inhaler plot or the "I have to get powers!" plot. BUT! The flashbacks went a long way to helping me understand Trish's motivation. The alley scene with Jessica was heart-breaking (I'll get to that shortly) but it was followed up by another wrenching scene which is Trish on the bathroom floor about to blow a guy as a "thank you" while her "friends" stand guard outside. We already knew she was an addict, but this shows you the kind of people (beyond her mother) she was surrounded by. It's like... even when she attained everything she thought she wanted by becoming a pop star, she was used and taken advantage by others and still vulnerable. But even though she's doing better now, the stage has changed, and there are people with superpowers now. I know Trish says she just wants to help people, but really she needs powers to feel better about herself. So when she tells Jessica at the end "I had to. I had to save you.", you can see this deep insecurity that drove Trish to make her choices and betray Jessica in the end.

Jeri - I love Jeri's character. So many people in the real world enter a conversation with someone under many assumptions about politeness. They think they know how the conversation is going to go because most of us want to avoid a confrontation. So watching Jeri on the screen is always entertaining. That said, I wasn't too vested in her arc until we found out IGH had a healer that could help her. I like seeing Jeri fight. She's dying, her partners are pushing her out, she's fighting nonetheless to beat them, then finds a cure and fights to get cured. The discovery that it was a con was disappointing, and I mean like the way she was disappointed. I was like "****, she's still dying, now what is she going to do?". I liked the way she took her revenge, but I wish it developed across two episodes. As it was, she got the nurse to kill her boyfriend pretty easily. But that's not a big deal. I'm glad she's still with us and I'm curious to see what happens next.

Jessica - God do I love this character. The flashbacks were pretty sad. Seeing Jessica younger with her boyfriend and hopeful, knowing how she would turn out later... And the scene where she runs into the alley seeing her boyfriend bludgeoned to death on the ground. Man I felt for her. And when she goes to the only person she can go to, she ends up having to help Trish instead. I know it's a show so we can't see a pattern because of time constraints, but this is the kind of stuff that makes Jessica who she is. You can't rely on others and you begin to change your expectations of people. And of yourself. You take everything on on your own. You can "take care of yourself", but what you deserve and what you're worth is murky, and typically taking care of yourself is more like "getting by". Thinking about her like this, I then thought about her bumping into Kilgrave, alone and vulnerable. It added more context to season 1.

But anyways, onto the plot. I thought the story with her and her mom was tragic and beautiful. It's very human. My own mother is bipolar with paranoid delusions. She has anosognosia, so she rejects the idea that she is mentally ill and therefore doesn't take medication. She's been living with me for years now and I take care of her. This is not the same as having a rage monster as a mom lol, but there are parallels.

Mostly in that it's an impossible situation, and knowing "the right thing to do" is not easy, and it doesn't seem to get easier. My friends and other family tell me to take care of myself. I have to do the right thing and live my own life and leave my mother to her own devices. It sounds great, but it's practically impossible for me to do, because I know what the results will be. My mom will be homeless somewhere, thinking everyone is watching her or persecuting her. So seeing this play out on screen was entertaining, because I already relate to Jessica in my own way, and seeing her go through such a similar impossible situation adds to that.

It's like, you're watching her give her life up. And the whole time, she's saying "... and then I'll figure out how to get us out of this ****storm." And it's like... no you won't. That's what you tell yourself. But there's no solution to this that is a happy compromise. But you do it anyway, because it's your mother and she can't control what happens to her. So it's funny but just even the scene where her mom is hooting in the car because Jessica has agreed to go with her, was just so sad to me, because she's giving up any semblance of a normal life just so her mom can live something approximating a normal life. My mom doesn't hulk out, but when she's having a manic episode and her psychosis strikes, she sees deception everywhere and ulterior motives in everything you say and do. She attacks people and literally goes on the run, disappearing for days before she comes back. I have her trust, barely, and the financial means to take care of her, and an amount of patience and willingness to read books and speak with doctors to provide for her as best I can. But if it's not me it's no one. And I know my life is on hold at the moment, and has been for years, but I made the choice to avoid the alternative.

So needless to say I felt some real kinship with Jessica Jones lol. And when Costa tells her "You did the right thing." and she looks down to her murdered mother, I just about lost my ****. It's like... how can that be the right thing? My brother invited me to move in with him in BK years ago on an apartment that was a good deal. And he said "you just can't bring mom". And I'm like... well what the **** am I supposed to do with her then? She can't hold a job and won't live with relatives. But the idea is that you just abandon these people. They don't say it like that, but, "you have to live your life". I'm not judging anyone for saying that, because there's a tremendous amount of truth in it. But it's not so easy. At least, not for me. And that last scene between her and Costa at the ferris wheel hit me like a sack of bricks. Because she was willing to have the ****ed up life on the run, because her mother couldn't control that rage. She didn't want it to end that way, even if it's the easy way out.

Anyways, that was all pretty personal. I hope you all don't mind but the story really resonated with me. So even though there isn't a villain (which I think it suffers a bit for, especially at the beginning), the personal story was incredible.

I'm glad that they left off with Jessica not on speaking terms with Trish or Malcolm, because that was a huge betrayal on their parts. Malcolm didn't mean any harm, but I don't believe that Trish was being altruistic, and her pursuit of super powers ****ed up Jessica's plan for her mother, to say nothing of her actually executing the woman later. I hope it takes some serious effort to mend those relationships in the next season.

[Cen]

I just realised Trish is Hellcat(don't blame my, not many comics with her in easter Europe).


You think she'll play part in arresting Thanos when he steals cosmic cube in Infinity War?

[Lord Joeltion]

Tropes and tropes followers are not respected.

Uh, sassy. Anyway, don't you mean "TVtrope followers"? Because I have no idea what a "trope follower" is. Tropes/motifs/images in art is something that exist on their own, and recognizing them is largely what defines genres in a broad sense.

I miss the nigthtime, too much dayligth made it lose it's noir feeling. :/

In all honesty, that was a painful reminder that this season falls too far from noir fiction *sigh*

Spoiler: Spoilers!

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Anyways, that was all pretty personal. I hope you all don't mind but the story really resonated with me. So even though there isn't a villain (which I think it suffers a bit for, especially at the beginning), the personal story was incredible.

I'm glad that they left off with Jessica not on speaking terms with Trish or Malcolm, because that was a huge betrayal on their parts. Malcolm didn't mean any harm, but I don't believe that Trish was being altruistic, and her pursuit of super powers ****ed up Jessica's plan for her mother, to say nothing of her actually executing the woman later. I hope it takes some serious effort to mend those relationships in the next season.

First of all, let me tell you that I'm glad you managed to connect so deeply with the series. I think that when stories manage to do that with someone, they fulfill their existence in the world. Even if I didn't like this season's overall themes, I can respect that.

Spoiler

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What treason from Malcolm exactly? Or rather, what treason that wasn't kinda justified in the way he was being treated already? (I agree with you on Trish, she was totally an A-hole). I think the three of them took some rather foul decisions throughout the series; and if you ask me, Jessica doesn't strike me quite as holier than them. Disreganding the fact that Malcolm wasn't manipulated, he was kinda doing the right thing, Jessica's mum wasn't "only her problem"*; but a constant threat to the entire world.

*I mean, I understand her reasons for believing it was something she should personally take care of; but in reality, it stopped being her problem since her mother started the killing spree.

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: Lord Joeltion

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I may be being too hard on Malcolm. But Jessica's plan was to have her mother take a deal where she could visit her and she'd be more comfortable, instead of going to the raft. The powers-that-be seemed to think this was plausible. So for Malcolm or Trish to decide this wasn't good enough was not cool. Jessica was going to allow the doctor to escape so her mother would take the deal. Trish stopped that from happening, with Malcolm's help.

I know that wasn't his intent, but he went behind Jessica's back and ****ed up her plans, leading to the murder of her mother. If I were in her shoes, that's all I would really get out of that. It would be very difficult to walk through his intentions and even consider what little he did logically without thinking that my plan would have worked and my mom would be alive if not for Malcolm and Trish meddling behind my back.

In fact, the deal was like an amazing opportunity. It was the best of both worlds. Her mom is secure, unable to harm people, and Jessica can still see her and visit her, and Jessica can still live a normal life. That's incredible. It was the only way it could have worked out that way. And Malcolm and Trish ruined that one-in-a-million opportunity. That left Jessica with two options; abandon her mother to the authorities, or give up her life for her mom. That's why I see it as such a huge disaster, because it could have actually been a storybook ending, insofar as something like that can be, but he hacked her computer and they went after the doctor. It's like my god, she was this close to making it work in a way where she could keep her mother. The loss of that opportunity is astronomical.

[Xyril]

After the garbage fire that was the first season I’m really loving this one. Easily one of the best turnarounds from bad first season to great second I’ve ever seen.

So, basically it turned from something that was very different from your typical MCU hero story into something more to your tastes?

Pretty much exactly how I saw it as well, except that I'm somebody who actually liked and appreciated how Season 1 was very different in tone and style. I also appreciated Season 2, even though it was noticeably different from Season 1. The transition isn't inappropriate--if you look at Jessica Jones (the comic series), it's not the same pseudo-noir character-study as Alias, and that makes sense, because it's depicting a point in her story where she isn't as broken or isolated, and it would be challenging to try to faithfully recreate the feel of her debut series. If I have one criticism, it's that the transition was a bit sudden and maybe a bit premature. MCU Jessica isn't anywhere near the end of Alias in terms of her character development, so there really isn't any reason to make such a drastic departure from the style of Season 1.

[ErebusVonMori]

Frankly every problem from about halfway through onwards directly falls on Trish's shoulders, and Malcolm in my opinion was very much manipulated. I blame him and Jessica's falling out on Trish too, in her selfish pursuit of powers she pretty much tried to destroy everyone around her.

[Lord Joeltion]

Spoiler: Lord Joeltion

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I may be being too hard on Malcolm. But Jessica's plan was to have her mother take a deal where she could visit her and she'd be more comfortable, instead of going to the raft. The powers-that-be seemed to think this was plausible. So for Malcolm or Trish to decide this wasn't good enough was not cool. Jessica was going to allow the doctor to escape so her mother would take the deal. Trish stopped that from happening, with Malcolm's help.

I know that wasn't his intent, but he went behind Jessica's back and ****ed up her plans, leading to the murder of her mother. If I were in her shoes, that's all I would really get out of that. It would be very difficult to walk through his intentions and even consider what little he did logically without thinking that my plan would have worked and my mom would be alive if not for Malcolm and Trish meddling behind my back.

In fact, the deal was like an amazing opportunity. It was the best of both worlds. Her mom is secure, unable to harm people, and Jessica can still see her and visit her, and Jessica can still live a normal life. That's incredible. It was the only way it could have worked out that way. And Malcolm and Trish ruined that one-in-a-million opportunity. That left Jessica with two options; abandon her mother to the authorities, or give up her life for her mom. That's why I see it as such a huge disaster, because it could have actually been a storybook ending, insofar as something like that can be, but he hacked her computer and they went after the doctor. It's like my god, she was this close to making it work in a way where she could keep her mother. The loss of that opportunity is astronomical.

Spoiler

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Oh, yeah, I understand, from Jessica's view, Malcom is just as guilty of her mother's execution as Trish.

The thing about the plan though... IMHO, Jessica was being excessively naive (and that's one of the gripes I have against this season, the Jessica I know isn't that kind of naive, so it's a departure from the way I see her; but that's beside the point) in believing that "plan" would have worked in the long run. Sure, it was "perfect" in the sense that everyone had what they wanted, more or less. But problem is it relied on her mother not suffering another outbreak. And as her mother and Jessica herself already said, she "wasn't who she was before" and she only was "the same voice, but a different person" as a result of the experiments. She only knew her for a few days, shared only a couple and she was totally buying her mother wouldn't suffer another crisis? I mean, sure, she is the daughter and she has all the reasons to be hopeful; but that was more wishful thinking than an actual plan.

And then is the issue of the doctor, whose Jessica's only experience of his true self was through her mother. Again, it was her mother sure, but she also sounded like a Stockholm victim at times. She had absolutely no reason to believe the doctor wouldn't turn against her or start making even worse experiments again. And that's not even taking into account that anyone who knew about her mother could use his knowledge if he was left without surveillance (in fact, that's what actually happened).

All in all, I consider Jessica was more at fault than Malcolm, because at least he acted in good faith and his cause was more or less reasonable*. Nobody had reasons to accept any of the demands Jessica, her mother or the doctor was asking for, and in reality Jessica was acting more selfish than she ever had. I'm sure you like that part about her because you can relate with her situation; but I think you at least should admit her situation was way more than she could handle, specially since her view was so biased. I'm not arguing than Jessica shouldn't have reacted the way she did, in fact (barring her moments of naivety, she was more or less on character). My argument is more about Malcom being the only sane person on boat. He was just sloppy and let Trish take advantage of him. And probably was a little foolish, but hey; he is the most Average Joe in the series after all. So sloppy and foolish is kinda part of the package.

*That doesn't mean he acted in the best possible way, just that given the scenario he happened to appear saner than the rest.

[Tono]

I think the problem with this season, and with the show as a whole is that there is no character that Jessica Jones can really play off of or have really good dialog with. When she was hallucinating was some of the best dialog in the season. She is so closed off from every other character or has stupid drama with that there is no real dialog. Its just angst or or people standing off with each other. With the hallucinations she actually had someone playing off of her.

[GAZ]

I finished the second season last night. Very good.

Originally Posted by GAZ View Post
It's not superhero action or vigilante thriller

According to whom?

Reading the rest of that very sentence reveals the answer is: Jessica herself. Within 4 minutes of the season starting: "A hero would have you locked up for soliciting murder. A vigilante would beat the $#!& out of you. Now which one am I?"

But instead of doing either the superhero action thing or the vigilante thriller thing, the main character goes and broods about her identity and legacy on a rooftop with her adopted sister, because this is a drama.

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: Lord Joeltion

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Oh, yeah, I understand, from Jessica's view, Malcom is just as guilty of her mother's execution as Trish.

Yeah I mean, Trish couldn't have done it without his help.

The thing about the plan though... IMHO, Jessica was being excessively naive (and that's one of the gripes I have against this season, the Jessica I know isn't that kind of naive, so it's a departure from the way I see her; but that's beside the point) in believing that "plan" would have worked in the long run. Sure, it was "perfect" in the sense that everyone had what they wanted, more or less. But problem is it relied on her mother not suffering another outbreak. And as her mother and Jessica herself already said, she "wasn't who she was before" and she only was "the same voice, but a different person" as a result of the experiments. She only knew her for a few days, shared only a couple and she was totally buying her mother wouldn't suffer another crisis? I mean, sure, she is the daughter and she has all the reasons to be hopeful; but that was more wishful thinking than an actual plan.

Well, Jessica has no one that she can talk to about her family that shares those memories with her. So it's true that she doesn't recognize her face, but I think the fact that she recognizes her voice and they can talk about dad and Phil together and reminisce or even just have meaningful knowledgeable conversations about her family and that time of her life is huge. I think it would serve to bring them together, even if not perfectly. It's like the idea of being immortal and outliving all of your friends and family, and now there is no one alive that knew you in your childhood, or younger years, etc. Jessica outlived all of those people, but then her mother came back and they could talk about the vacations and about Jessica's teen angst, etc.

Now, couple that with the fact that Jessica is worried that she's a killer. She sees herself in her mother, or what she might become. There is empathy and sympathy there. She was already relating to her mother before she even knew it was her mother.

The mind is very convincing. If you can empathize with her, as she does, and she's your mom, so you already have that powerful bond there, and you see the lengths to which she has gone for years to control her power and not harm people, you can begin to justify certain perspectives and actions.

This gets even easier as the plot progresses, when Jessica kills the guard in self-defense at his home, and when her mother runs into an explosion to save the truck driver. Jessica has even more doubt about her ability to control her power, and sees that her mom is a good person and redemption is possible. The difference between Jessica and her mom is that Jessica is pessimistic about her abilities and tries to keep people at a distance, whereas Alisa is optimistic

I don't think Jessica was banking on her mother never having another outbreak. But her mother was kept by the doctor for over a decade with little to no incident (he turned a blind eye to Alisa's escapes at the end, but she wasn't being kept in an impartial prison). I think it's reasonable to think the prison can handle her relatively well, even if she has an outbreak. Not to mention Jessica demonstrated that she could pull her mother back from the brink, something not possible before. It could be that Jessica could help her mother control her bouts of rage in the end.

I'm not saying that's likely, but if you can see these potentialities and have to choose between giving it a shot or sending her away to the Raft for the rest of her life (when she might escape on the way there to avoid that fate), I get why she made the attempt at the deal.

And then is the issue of the doctor, whose Jessica's only experience of his true self was through her mother. Again, it was her mother sure, but she also sounded like a Stockholm victim at times. She had absolutely no reason to believe the doctor wouldn't turn against her or start making even worse experiments again. And that's not even taking into account that anyone who knew about her mother could use his knowledge if he was left without surveillance (in fact, that's what actually happened).

I don't think it was Stockholm syndrome. I think he really loved Alisa and she loved him in turn. Here's what we know:

- The doctor saved Jessica's life.
- The doctor saved Alisa's life.
- Alisa's procedure left her with uncontrollable rage.
- The doctor dedicated his life to helping Alisa overcome that problem.
- Everything was relatively well until Trish started snooping around.

The doctor isn't evil. Alisa is sort of (I think it was a mistake to make her so callous about murder), but the doctor isn't. Alisa's love for him is understandable. She's isolated, so that's a knock against him, but he's not cruel, and he seems selfless. And he takes great risk to live with Alisa and try to help her manage her issues.

I don't think it's a big deal for Jessica to let him free considering the deal her mother is willing to make in return.

All in all, I consider Jessica was more at fault than Malcolm, because at least he acted in good faith and his cause was more or less reasonable*. Nobody had reasons to accept any of the demands Jessica, her mother or the doctor was asking for, and in reality Jessica was acting more selfish than she ever had.

I'm not sure what demands Jessica was making except "investigation over, let it go".

But I'm okay with Jessica being more at fault, because Jessica has the greatest agency here, so she has to take responsibility for sure. My instinct to someone like Malcolm is to say "it wasn't your call to make". What are the pleas:

She's dangerous --> I can talk her down.
She's super strong --> So am I, neither one of us asked for this.
She's killed people --> I have too.
Your life will be ruined --> My choice to make.

The plea that carries the most weight is that Alisa is a danger to other people, but Jessica had that under control by turning her in. Remember too that Alisa could have hulked out when the police showed up but Jessica was there. She has an impact on her mother and we don't know how far that could have gone.

So it's a matter of "Malcolm, let me try" and Malcolm and Trish saying "No, it's not worth it."

I'm sure you like that part about her because you can relate with her situation; but I think you at least should admit her situation was way more than she could handle, specially since her view was so biased.

That's why I called it an impossible situation. I don't think Jessica was being selfish. In fact, she was giving up her job, Malcolm, Trish, a shot at romance with Oscar, her freedom, etc. for someone else. She was abandoning any chance at living a normal life.

Is she in over her head? Yes, absolutely. But who wouldn't be? Her mom is a super strong powder keg with a short fuse. On the run from the government. But that's what's heroic about it.

Jessica could have been callous toward her mother and not had a connection and just turned her in to be sent to the Raft. But we know that Jessica is hard on the outside but a decent person on the inside. Season 1 she's ready to run but then we get that scene where's she retracing her steps in the hotel ready to confront her nightmare to save a young girl from Kilgrave. In Defenders she once again leaves the group, only to show up throwing a car through the front of the restaurant because people need her help. Here we see her resist her mom's efforts to connect, but she breaks through. Jessica's gruff to keep people away, because she thinks she caused her family to die in a horrific car accident, and she isn't sure if she killed Luke's wife because Kilgrave told her to or just because. But inside she wants those connections to other people. So once she accepts that connection, then it's a fight to keep it.

Is a woman telling her friends to butt out and let her handle the situation selfish? Sure, I guess. But I'm willing to forgive her.

I'm not arguing than Jessica shouldn't have reacted the way she did, in fact (barring her moments of naivety, she was more or less on character). My argument is more about Malcom being the only sane person on boat. He was just sloppy and let Trish take advantage of him. And probably was a little foolish, but hey; he is the most Average Joe in the series after all. So sloppy and foolish is kinda part of the package

Malcolm isn't vested in the situation like Jessica is. His perspective is different. Not to mention she was keeping him in the dark. Which I don't blame her for either. She's doing something illegal by not turning the doctor in. She's having fake IDs made so he can escape the country.

Malcolm got convinced by Trish that Jessica wasn't thinking clearly. This is pretty weak sauce to go behind her back in my opinion.

Spoiler: Tono

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I think the problem with this season, and with the show as a whole is that there is no character that Jessica Jones can really play off of or have really good dialog with. When she was hallucinating was some of the best dialog in the season. She is so closed off from every other character or has stupid drama with that there is no real dialog. Its just angst or or people standing off with each other. With the hallucinations she actually had someone playing off of her.

I actually didn't like bringing Kilgrave back. But I have a bias there. I typically don't like it when character's doubts are portrayed by a delusion of someone they killed. It doesn't seem necessary to me and it doesn't really reflect real life in any way.