OOTS #1114 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Heh, I ain't daft.

I was alluding to what does "benefits" mean if she had to pay for a race to be fixed.

She bet on the race, and since she knew that the 70-to-1 against guy was going to win, made a massive profit on her scheme. That's her in the back of the panel, collecting her cart with three massive sacks of gold.

GW

[Bob_McSurly]

She's still a cleric of Loki, and by her own statements destroying undead is a big part of Loki's mission statement along with "cheating and lying whenever you can." The cult of Loki may allow a lot more personal freedom than a dwarf generally can get away with without a one way trip to eternal slavery at their death, but he's still going to expect clerics to fulfill their duties.

Again, that is all true, but Loki and Hilgya are both very chaotic (in the alignment sense of the word), so I doubt that Loki has any kind of "you must always destroy any undead you see, no matter the risk" rule. That doesn't seem like Loki's style. Even if there is a rule like that, I don't think that is especially relevant to either a) her alignment on the good-evil axis, or b) her mothering abilities.

Edit:

In this situation, is the chocolate going to be killed by not consenting to be my ice cream?

Yes. But you don't know this. Also, even if you did know this, and you tried to resist, you would get physically coerced into taking the ice cream anyway.

[Snails]

The bottom line is that she is quite clear that her reason for going after Greg is to exact her revenge on Durkon. Nothing more. And those are truly terrible reasons to endanger your baby.

Yes, you are right. But "reason" does not necessarily apply.

Hilgya is herself a wee bit of "fantasy stupid" it seems to me. She appears to sincerely believe that keeping her baby with her is the safer option for the child. That belief may be stupid, but she does have a rationally defensible claim that you cannot trust dwarf society, that she has a track record of overreacting to.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, you are right. But "reason" does not necessarily apply.

Hilgya is herself a wee bit of "fantasy stupid" it seems to me. She appears to sincerely believe that keeping her baby with her is the safer option for the child. That belief may be stupid, but she does have a rationally defensible claim that you cannot trust dwarf society, that she has a track record of overreacting to.

Not exactly overreactig when, well, she does have a very valid point...

[Keltest]

Not exactly overreactig when, well, she does have a very valid point...

In as much as she would likely do something foolish while in Thor's temple that is likely to spark conflict, I suppose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

she does have a rationally defensible claim that you cannot trust dwarf society, that she has a track record of overreacting to.

And that applies to the alternative of going back to the human lands how, precisely?

GW

[Fyraltari]

Not exactly overreactig when, well, she does have a very valid point...

It wouldn't be overreacting if she hadn't some semblance of a point in the first place.

[The_Weirdo]

In as much as she would likely do something foolish while in Thor's temple that is likely to spark conflict, I suppose.

Yes, yes, you hate Hilgya, to the point of equivocating about and coming up with hypotheticals to justify forced marriage. Moving on.

[Bob_McSurly]

Yes, yes, you hate Hilgya, to the point of equivocating about and coming up with hypotheticals to justify forced marriage. Moving on.

Yes, he's just guessing, but do you actually think that he is wrong? Based on her characterization, I think it is fair to say that Hilgya in a Temple of Thor might not turn out well.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, he's just guessing, but do you actually think that he is wrong? Based on her characterization, I think it is fair to say that Hilgya in a Temple of Thor might not turn out well.

It wouldn't, but he took pains to pin the blame on Hilgya.

[Keltest]

It wouldn't, but he took pains to pin the blame on Hilgya.

Yes, because that's how she acts. You look at her past actions to extrapolate her future actions. I certainly don't see the brewmaster or the novices going "oh, a child, let us horribly abuse it!" But I can absolutely see Hilgya going "oh, priests of Thor! Let me act extremely hostile!"

[Snails]

Not exactly overreactig when, well, she does have a very valid point...

No.

Having a valid point means nothing more than a problem is identified that is probably worth investing real effort in fixing or otherwise improving the situation. I grant her that.

Whether a proposed or attempted action is overreacting is a separable question. Just because I say yes to the first question does not mean I have surrendered all moral judgment on actual actions.

To say otherwise utterly destroys the possibility of any moral system ever existing. No, I am not exaggerating.

[zimmerwald1915]

I certainly don't see the brewmaster or the novices going "oh, a child, let us horribly abuse it!"

To be fair, you never can tell. Abusers can look and act like anything. We should all be very afraid of our fellow man.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, you never can tell. Abusers can look and act like anything. We should all be very afraid of our fellow man.

Paranoia, much?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given what my job is in meatspace, I'm afraid not.

[Kish]

Why did we start talking about men, particularly as a stand-in for humans? The people under discussion are dwarves.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, because that's how she acts. You look at her past actions to extrapolate her future actions. I certainly don't see the brewmaster or the novices going "oh, a child, let us horribly abuse it!" But I can absolutely see Hilgya going "oh, priests of Thor! Let me act extremely hostile!"

Maybe.

But, unlike the "there must be a hypothetical reason why Hilgya deserved to be married at crossbow point" narrative, there is an actual, stated-in-story reason for her, a cleric of Loki, to distrust the church of Thor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

"Dwarves" are just stand-ins for humans. Doesn't matter how funny the suit or how big the hat, fundamentally every character is a human and exists to help explain humans to humans. Because for some reason we find it easier to understand purple-skinned bugheads from Planet Salgwoodle than other members of our species.

[Keltest]

Maybe.

But, unlike the "there must be a hypothetical reason why Hilgya deserved to be married at crossbow point" narrative, there is an actual, stated-in-story reason for her, a cleric of Loki, to distrust the church of Thor.

She has a stated in-story reason for her to dislike the church of Thor. Part of that reason is their honor and trustworthiness. Hilgya has a history of disproportionate retribution for quasi-imagined slights. Taking these things together, I can therefore conclude that were Hilgya to come into conflict with the novices in the temple of Thor such that the safety of Kudzu would be threatened, it would almost certainly be at her own instigation.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Dwarves" are just stand-ins for humans. Doesn't matter how funny the suit or how big the hat, fundamentally every character is a human and exists to help explain humans to humans. Because for some reason we find it easier to understand purple-skinned bugheads from Planet Salgwoodle than other members of our species.

Also, the usage "fellow man" implies all of mankind, the entire human species, not just post-pubescent males.

[Kardwill]

Yes, because that's how she acts. You look at her past actions to extrapolate her future actions. I certainly don't see the brewmaster or the novices going "oh, a child, let us horribly abuse it!"

Probably not, but leaving your child to the care of an enemy god's clergy don't sound very wise. There may be a problem with responsible, serious, concerned dwarves that don't want to "return a child to the care of an horrible cleric of that horrible Loki. Sounds more responsible to keep him and raise him properly, ya know? For his own good."

The guys we saw at the temple don't look like they would do this (and, honestly, a high level cleric like Helgya would punch throughh them like a crossbow bolt through a wet paper bag), but I don't begrudge her for not trusting them.

Of course, the fact she did not devise a back-up plan for Kudzu in case she had to do some serious adventurin' (and the fact she probaly lugs him around because she wants him to be part of her vengeance) is still pretty irresponsible. But said backup plan cannot be "Hey, I'll drop him off at the nearest enemy temple!"

[Keltest]

Probably not, but leaving your child to the care of an enemy god's clergy don't sound very wise. There may be a problem with responsible, serious, concerned dwarves that don't want to "return a child to the care of an horrible cleric of that horrible Loki. Sounds more responsible to keep him and raise him properly, ya know? For his own good."

The guys we saw at the temple don't look like they would do this (and, honestly, a high level cleric like Helgya would punch throughh them like a crossbow bolt through a wet paper bag), but I don't begrudge her for not trusting them.

Of course, the fact she did not devise a back-up plan for Kudzu in case she had to do some serious adventurin' (and the fact she probaly lugs him around because she wants him to be part of her vengeance) is still pretty irresponsible. But said backup plan cannot be "Hey, I'll drop him off at the nearest enemy temple!"

when the alternative is "taking them into battle against literal vampires" then yes, its a good idea. Especially because this temple, unlike, say, Loki's, is known for being Good and Honorable.

Maybe theres a third option she could have taken that doesn't require her to endanger her infant like that, but until she decides to take it, I can and absolutely will judge her for her poor choices.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

when the alternative is "taking them into battle against literal vampires" then yes, its a good idea. Especially because this temple, unlike, say, Loki's, is known for being Good and Honorable.

Maybe theres a third option she could have taken that doesn't require her to endanger her infant like that, but until she decides to take it, I can and absolutely will judge her for her poor choices.

There are far more than three choices, in fact. The most obvious of which is "Durkon's dead, this place is crawling with vampires, and I have my baby strapped to my chest, so I'm calling this someone else's problem until I can get Kudzu someplace safe. I'm windwalking to the human lands until a) this is solved b) I find someone I can trust to take care of my baby or c) he can take care of himself, whichever comes first".

If she really wanted to help the dwarves not become food for vampires, she could let the rest of the Loki church about the issue, and they can come over and help, if Loki really cares that much about destroying the undead.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

There are far more than three choices, in fact. The most obvious of which is "Durkon's dead, this place is crawling with vampires, and I have my baby strapped to my chest, so I'm calling this someone else's problem until I can get Kudzu someplace safe. I'm windwalking to the human lands until a) this is solved b) I find someone I can trust to take care of my baby or c) he can take care of himself, whichever comes first".

If she really wanted to help the dwarves not become food for vampires, she could let the rest of the Loki church about the issue, and they can come over and help, if Loki really cares that much about destroying the undead.

Grey Wolf

I'm willing to be generous and not consider "ignoring all the signs that your god wants you to come here and do this thing" as a valid path for a cleric to take, especially given the scale of the threat here. Having said that, yes, in spite of my language there is no actual ambiguity in the existence of alternative choices for seeking child care for Kudzu beyond "temple of thor" and "battle with vampires" if it really bothered her that much.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm willing to be generous and not consider "ignoring all the signs that your god wants you to come here and do this thing" as a valid path for a cleric to take

Interesting argument. Weird it hasn't come up before. I mean, I can see the validity of it in general, but from Hilgya's perspective, this is just her god having finally given her a reward for loyal service by giving her the location of her personal revenge target after months of begging. Sure, maybe giving up on it means she won't get this boon a second time, but you could also easily conclude this was Loki's way of showing you that your revenge is doomed to failure and that instead, he needs you to raise the alarm about the massive undead army gathering in the north.

Especially for Loki's followers, I don't think it is a good idea to try to second guess why Loki gave you a piece of information. He's an expert at having a plan for every contingency anyway, so you might as well do as you damn please, since it's likely to turn out to be he had accounted for the possibility. Perfect, really, for a god of liberty.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Interesting argument. Weird it hasn't come up before. I mean, I can see the validity of it in general, but from Hilgya's perspective, this is just her god having finally given her a reward for loyal service by giving her the location of her personal revenge target after months of begging. Sure, maybe giving up on it means she won't get this boon a second time, but you could also easily conclude this was Loki's way of showing you that your revenge is doomed to failure and that instead, he needs you to raise the alarm about the massive undead army gathering in the north.

Especially for Loki's followers, I don't think it is a good idea to try to second guess why Loki gave you a piece of information. He's an expert at having a plan for every contingency anyway, so you might as well do as you damn please, since it's likely to turn out to be he had accounted for the possibility. Perfect, really, for a god of liberty.

Grey Wolf

I would think that Loki's church in the dwarven lands would be better suited for getting the word out about the army of undead in said dwarven lands. Hilgya is a high level cleric; she's powerful enough that her godly missions would be more along the line of taking an active role in helping stop it more than just raising the alarm and bugging out, even if that role is "make sure the full time heroes can do their jobs correctly."

I mean, its not impossible, but I find it a little hard to believe that loki has absolutely 0 minions in or near the dwarven lands that wouldn't be better suited to the task of finding help than Hilgya

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would think that Loki's church in the dwarven lands would be better suited for getting the word out about the army of undead in said dwarven lands. Hilgya is a high level cleric; she's powerful enough that her godly missions would be more along the line of taking an active role in helping stop it more than just raising the alarm and bugging out, even if that role is "make sure the full time heroes can do their jobs correctly."

I mean, its not impossible, but I find it a little hard to believe that loki has absolutely 0 minions in or near the dwarven lands that wouldn't be better suited to the task of finding help than Hilgya

Is there a Loki church in the dwarven lands? As far as I can tell, Hilgya is the only dwarven cleric of Loki. Note her effectively admitting that a dwarven Loki cleric is a rarity only contradicted by her existence. Note too that she is taking upon herself bringing Loki to the dwarves. Sure sounds to me like there aren't any dwarven Loki worshipers other than those she's managed to convert, and given how recently she returned, there can't be that many of them. No, if she needs reinforcements, she'll probably need to go back to Greysky city. But sure, she could go to Loki Dwarven Temple Central, if there is one. Makes no difference to my argument against the suggestion that she must be the one taking point.

(Also, I just noticed that Hilgya outright admits in the linked comic that she ain't doing this to save the world, but for petty self-serving reasons, so that answers the idea that she's putting the safety of the world above the safety of Kudzu - Kudzu is being put on the line of fire for petty, self-serving reasons, not out of any high-minded 'save the world because we live in it' reason).

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Is there a Loki church in the dwarven lands? As far as I can tell, Hilgya is the only dwarven cleric of Loki. Note her effectively admitting that a dwarven Loki cleric is a rarity only contradicted by her existence. Note too that she is taking upon herself bringing Loki to the dwarves. Sure sounds to me like there aren't any dwarven Loki worshipers other than those she's managed to convert, and given how recently she returned, there can't be that many of them. No, if she needs reinforcements, she'll probably need to go back to Greysky city. But sure, she could go to Loki Dwarven Temple Central, if there is one. Makes no difference to my argument against the suggestion that she must be the one taking point.

(Also, I just noticed that Hilgya outright admits in the linked comic that she ain't doing this to save the world, but for petty self-serving reasons, so that answers the idea that she's putting the safety of the world above the safety of Kudzu - Kudzu is being put on the line of fire for petty, self-serving reasons, not out of any high-minded 'save the world because we live in it' reason).

Grey Wolf

I doubt theres anything so large scale as what Odin or Thor have, but Loki is a major deity, and his domain also includes fire, which is going to be something the dwarves care about for several reasons. As I said, I would be absolutely shocked if Loki had 0 minions in the dwarven lands. And they don't necessarily have to be full on clerics. Isnt there an NPC class that basically amounts to "temple worker" or something? He could have a couple adepts or experts hanging around in case the dwarves need, like, a bonfire or something in their war on trees.

[Breccia]

She bet on the race, and since she knew that the 70-to-1 against guy was going to win, made a massive profit on her scheme.

Yeah...did we settle how, exactly, one fixes a race between mindless oozes? Surely there must have been at least one or two theories.

So anyone else wonders how you fix a gelatinous cube race ?

So, not just me, then.

[Fyraltari]

He's an expert at having a plan for every contingency anyway, so you might as well do as you damn please, since it's likely to turn out to be he had accounted for the possibility. Perfect, really, for a god of liberty.

Aren't you overselling Loki a bit there ?
I don't know about Marvel (who I understand shapes a lot of the american understanding of Norse Mythology) but apart from that any source I can think of characterize Loki as not as intelligent as he think he is kind of person with a tendency to shoot his own foot and generally having to improvise to get his way.

And considering that the OoTS gods seem pretty incompetent as a whole...