General Anime/Manga Discussion 15: The Beach Episode

[BWR]

Seriously, why does Space Dandy not have the "beloved classic" status

Beats me. I love that show. More than any of the others you mentioned.

[LaZodiac]

So I've been watching titles based on recommendations from friends and I finally got to Space Dandy... Seriously, why does Space Dandy not have the "beloved classic" status that titles like Cowboy Bebop*, Outlaw Star, Trigun and FLCL have? Not that it was without faults, but it's rare I see a series of any kind this creative and this funny!

(*as it turns out, this is not an unfair comparison because Space Dandy was evidently directed by the same guy behind Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo.)

Because it's not a classic.

In the definition that it is Not Old. It's shockingly modern, I think season one stated in 2014? That's why it's not a beloved cult classic. It's NOT OLD.

[Reddish Mage]

Because it's not a classic.

In the definition that it is Not Old. It's shockingly modern, I think season one stated in 2014? That's why it's not a beloved cult classic. It's NOT OLD.

Frankly, I'm not sure its up there with his other works in popularity either.

[cobaltstarfire]

Hi folks

I just finished watching the Eng dub of Yamato / Star Blazer 2202, and it stops at episode 13 (ok, Earth + Gamilas Vs Gatlantians of the Comet just to be clear. SO many open plotlines.....). I think I might have been watching the short films, rather than the actual episodes, though the titles do match. Or maybe the ENG version stops at #13 and the OV goes on (the wiki page lists 18 episodes).

Extra info: last episode I watched was "The Terezart Landing Operation: Strike the Enemy Missile Fleet!"

What is the best way to continue watching this? I am super hooked up, as a fan of the original series I find this one is just fantastic.

Cheers

Ossian

Patience mostly, or hunt down the original from the 70's if you just need to know roughly what happens (I have not seen the originals but aside from some tweaks and stuff I've heard the story is about the same?)

The remakes are being released first as movies, then get broken down into episodes for tv later. I dunno when they'll get into the next batch of episodes, but it looks like the last movie is due to come out in November, so it could be a while before you can really finish it regardless of when they start releasing more episodes.

[Kato]

So I've been watching titles based on recommendations from friends and I finally got to Space Dandy... Seriously, why does Space Dandy not have the "beloved classic" status that titles like Cowboy Bebop*, Outlaw Star, Trigun and FLCL have?

What Zodiac said. It's way too young to be a classic. and it's not that impactful because it aims at a kind of niche audience.
Personally, I think it does very well what it does and I've enjoyed the (few) episodes I've seen, but it walks the thin line between too whacky but too real which I don't enjoy as much as others.

[Chromascope3D]

I loved Space Dandy, though it was a little late for the 70s nostalgia train, as the cultural nostalgia clock had started to move to the 80s by then (at least here in America).

[Ibrinar]

It is entertaining/fun and sometimes quite creative but ultimately I didn't find it all that memorable. Granted I prefer most show to not be episodic so I am a bit biased against it.

[JCarter426]

If just eight episodes weren't enough for you....

[theMycon]

Also slowly making my way through Galaxy Express 999, which is a mix of awesome, fun, strangely hard-hearted and exasperatingly wrong about science, even by soft SF standards.

I worked my way through that, over about a year and a half. I loved the movies growing up, and really wanted to love the series. And then I got to it translating a gravity well as "A gravity" shoehorning in "well" as an adverb later in the conversation.

I can't call it good, but it's fascinating beyond belief. For example: It's clearly a children's show, but the very first episode has the comic relief shooting up a dinner party and crushing the survivor's head in with the butt of his gun. You will eventually admit he's as much the hero as Dorothy was in The Wizard of Oz, if you're gritting your teeth at my calling him "the comic relief". And it keeps the essential story of the movies, but with a huge amount of backstory & a little bit of future added for the actual hero.

If you want to watch this done for adults, watch Kino's Journeys. The 2013 series is fantastic, and the 2018 version is decent, but so much GE999 that I kept calling Kino "Young Tetsuro" in my head.

Spoiler: Not spoilers past episode 9 or 10

Show

It's not entirely clear how many worlds the two destroy over the course of their adventure. By season 4, Tetsuro gets in on the action, literally not flipping a switch to stop 99.99% of the population of a world from dying. And also calls a genocidal maniac "a coward" as if that were at all the reasonable bit to be angry about.

In fact I'm gonna recommend everyone here at least consider Kino's Journeys. It's an anthology of adventures as a 19-ish year old woman travels to various countries on her talking motorcycle, staying for 3 days and 2 nights in each under the rule that it's all she needs to learn about the country. Hijinks always ensue, though she's often a bystander. It's atmospheric, full of detail, and often heart-rending. I also appreciate that the 2013 series shows her practicing with her guns way, way more than it shows her using them; avoiding the super-powered unnaturally talented kiddo trope (even if she is a good bit better than I am).

[Pendulous]

If just eight episodes weren't enough for you....

I didn't like the show to make it that far, but I know NOBODY likes the Endless Eight. I cannot imagine why anyone would bother.

[Lethologica]

If you want to watch this done for adults, watch Kino's Journeys. The 2013 series is fantastic, and the 2018 version is decent, but so much GE999 that I kept calling Kino "Young Tetsuro" in my head.

Spoiler: Not spoilers past episode 9 or 10

Show

It's not entirely clear how many worlds the two destroy over the course of their adventure. By season 4, Tetsuro gets in on the action, literally not flipping a switch to stop 99.99% of the population of a world from dying. And also calls a genocidal maniac "a coward" as if that were at all the reasonable bit to be angry about.

In fact I'm gonna recommend everyone here at least consider Kino's Journeys. It's an anthology of adventures as a 19-ish year old woman travels to various countries on her talking motorcycle, staying for 3 days and 2 nights in each under the rule that it's all she needs to learn about the country. Hijinks always ensue, though she's often a bystander. It's atmospheric, full of detail, and often heart-rending. I also appreciate that the 2013 series shows her practicing with her guns way, way more than it shows her using them; avoiding the super-powered unnaturally talented kiddo trope (even if she is a good bit better than I am).

2013, yes. 2018? I dunno. I couldn't sit through more than a few episodes. It didn't seem to offer anything besides a more conventional gloss on themes that were already done better by 2013.

[The Fury]

Because it's not a classic.

In the definition that it is Not Old. It's shockingly modern, I think season one stated in 2014? That's why it's not a beloved cult classic. It's NOT OLD.

I guess I can concede the point that it's only about four years old. That said, it's not really part of the current anime discussion either. Or maybe that just says more about the anime enthusiasts I encounter, and it's possible that I'm misremembering 2014 but back then the "current" shows that folks were interested in were things like Kill La Kill, Attack on Titan, Madoka Magica, Death Note or Fairy Tail. Space Dandy sort of flew under the radar and I find it weird how it's still largely ignored.

[Rynjin]

That's the issue with the new seasonal anime trend; the conversation moves on immediately after shows stop airing.

[Lethologica]

Four years was not too soon for Madoka Magica to become a classic of the medium - indeed, I hardly remember a gap between release and acclaim. Age does not explain Space Dandy's arguable lack of recognition.

The more likely culprit here is tone and depth. Space Dandy is intentionally, riotiously, proudly frivolous. Its comedy is bold, simple, and direct; its themes, when expressed, are similar (why, yes, firing Dandy out the mouth of the formerly gagged Lady Liberty conveys the triumph of creative freedom over perverse restraint, now say it louder so the neighbors can hear you). The ratio of expressiveness to content expressed is quite high - part compliment to the vivid animation, part acknowledgment that the ride is too wild to ever get a good look out the window. Which is intentional, clearly - Dandy wants to live in the moment, not to look back at past moments or past universes or past episodes. This is perhaps a level of enlightenment beyond that of the worldly, connection-loving critic.

One complimentary review appropriately likens Space Dandy to a jam session with some of anime's finest minds taking the helm in turn, and while such exercises produce brilliantly creative art, it differs in kind from the finely honed works that typically become known as masterpieces or classics. In some ways Dandy thumbs its nose at the very idea of aspiring to such. Yes, our main character is gonna rant about boobies straight out of the gate, and his goal is gonna be going to Boobies, the gag being that Boobies has boobies galore. Take us seriously as a classic. We dare you.

[Mechalich]

Four years was not too soon for Madoka Magica to become a classic of the medium - indeed, I hardly remember a gap between release and acclaim. Age does not explain Space Dandy's arguable lack of recognition.

Madoka Magica was (and is) a massive anime hit of seismic proportions. Space Dandy was not. It wasn't even the biggest and most impacting show of 2014 - among 'adult-oriented' anime of that year you could easily rate Parasyte -the maxim-, Psycho-Pass, and Tokyo Ghoul above it in terms of impact, to say nothing of major second-wave Isekai hits like Log Horizon and No Game No Life, or ongoing franchises like SAO II and Unlimited Blade Works. It's really hard to hold your position in the anime conversation unless a show is either part of an ongoing franchise or really nails it.

[Rynjin]

Parasyte is kinda cheating, since it was about 20 years old at time of release. The manga was already a classic. It's like raving over how JoJo's anime was an instant classic.

I also don't know anyone that proclaims Tokyo Ghoul as some must see anime either, mind.

But Space Dandy was commonly discussed when it was on, just as much as any of those. It's just it's not on any more. Most people don't strike up casual conversations about ANY of those these days. That's just the nature of the current anime community. "It's not airing now, so who cares?"

[kamikasei]

Personally I just didn't think it was very good - or if it got good, it was after it failed to hold my interest. It's possible it doesn't have cult classic status because some people enjoyed it while it was airing but not many were left with a lasting impression of quality.

[deuterio12]

Madoka Magica was (and is) a massive anime hit of seismic proportions.

Speaking of which, I recall once years ago seeing a bunch of pics of the Madoka Magica characters in the net dressed as Super Robot Wars Original mechas. Homura as Alteisen, Kyoko as Trombe and Sakuya as Daizengar in particular. But I can't seem to find those pics anywhere now.

Would any kind sould here know where to find them?

[Mechalich]

Parasyte is kinda cheating, since it was about 20 years old at time of release. The manga was already a classic. It's like raving over how JoJo's anime was an instant classic.

I also don't know anyone that proclaims Tokyo Ghoul as some must see anime either, mind.

But Space Dandy was commonly discussed when it was on, just as much as any of those. It's just it's not on any more. Most people don't strike up casual conversations about ANY of those these days. That's just the nature of the current anime community. "It's not airing now, so who cares?"

Most of those shows aren't discussed much anymore either, but they were roughly as popular and conversation present at the time, or at least it seemed that way. They were just other top ten shows from that year, but being a top ten, or even top five, show doesn't really matter that much. You either have to be part of a larger franchise - the real show to hold serve from 2014 is Fate/stay night Unlimited Blade Works not any stand alone - or be absolutely obviously the biggest thing there is in your moment. That doesn't happen very often. There's too many shows spread across too many genres and the financial state of the industry discourages experimentation.

[LaZodiac]

One of the big things about Space Dandy that has to be remembered is that almost every episode ended with everyone dead. It was, at it's core, a series about "telling stories without minding the consequences". It was the initial pitch for Bebop until the show became a dramatic yakuza film in space. A show where you can watch basically any episode and have a good time enjoying something creative. The ultimate episodic series.

And that is what is going to stop it from being a classic because ultimately, no matter how good the episode where they rip Dandies from other universes is, with it's ideas of what it means to be you and how the Depressed Universe's speech basically kills everyone, no matter how good the zombie apocolypse episode is...they're just singular things that you enjoy for their pathos or comedy or drama, and then put on a shelf never to be seen or referred to again. Humans as a whole prefer sequential media to episodic, and Dandy's goal was to be the ultimate episodic series. So it will never get the recognition it probably deserves because it actively avoided it.

[Tengu_temp]

Humans as a whole prefer sequential media to episodic

And yet the vast majority of non-anime TV shows, and a substantial chunk of all stories created by humanity as a whole, are episodic rather than sequential.

[Chromascope3D]

And yet the vast majority of non-anime TV shows, and a substantial chunk of all stories created by humanity as a whole, are episodic rather than sequential.

I think that's mainly because, before the internet, keeping up with serialized stories was next to impossible unless you religiously tuned in for every episode. This is why, prior to the 90s, most shows were purely episodic, exceptions being long running soaps, at least, according to TV execs. But then Twin Peaks happened, taking the soap opera model and repackaging it for a prime time audience and ushering in the "Golden Age of Television." These days, even primarily episodic sitcoms still feature overarching storylines to tie stories together (i.e. The Office, Parks and Rec) while the most fondly remembered and talked about are all primarily long-running epics (i.e. Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones).

That being said, Viva Namida is still one of my favorite OPs and it still has a regular spot on my playlists.

[Lethologica]

Madoka Magica was (and is) a massive anime hit of seismic proportions. Space Dandy was not. It wasn't even the biggest and most impacting show of 2014 - among 'adult-oriented' anime of that year you could easily rate Parasyte -the maxim-, Psycho-Pass, and Tokyo Ghoul above it in terms of impact, to say nothing of major second-wave Isekai hits like Log Horizon and No Game No Life, or ongoing franchises like SAO II and Unlimited Blade Works. It's really hard to hold your position in the anime conversation unless a show is either part of an ongoing franchise or really nails it.

All right, so we are clear that being four years old does not explain Space Dandy's arguable lack of recognition. Let us move on, then, to the argument that Dandy is victim to the anime market's newfound oppressiveness towards all but the most popular shows.

Which beloved classics had comparable contemporary popularity to Space Dandy? The four titles originally mentioned as 'beloved classics' have at least one thing in common: they got the star treatment of the time for mature (well, teenaged) western audiences, an Adult Swim time slot. This makes a rather narrow picture of the classics. Trying a somewhat different comparison, how does Dandy rate as a classic against another modestly popular, pompadour-adorned, creative-heavyweight achievement in artistic craft and visceral momentary experience that relegates storytelling to a supporting role, Redline?

And of the anime from roughly 2014, how should Dandy stand in a classics discussion? Behind Kill la Kill, surely (if you include fall 2013 with Log Horizon, I will do so as well). Were I arguing for a less popular 2014 show to enter the fray, Ping Pong the Animation would beat Space Dandy to the punch. Should Dandy lay claim to the title of classic over Log Horizon? How about some of the more grounded 2014 releases - Shirobako, Barakamon, Marnie, and Your Lie in April? If Psycho-Pass getting a second season entitles it to popular consideration over Dandy in 2014, why not Mushishi's second season in critical consideration?

Not to mention, if we were to put aside survivorship bias and take a more thorough accounting, how many deserving anime would we find overlooked from the '90s due to lack of contemporary popularity? Is this actually new? How is being a less popular show on Crunchyroll or MAL more suffocating than the closest '90s equivalent, which was not getting a chance to air on western TVs at all?

The claim that Space Dandy is (a) a deserving classic that (b) has been undeservedly overlooked due to (c) an excess of interest in the newest and most popular anime that (d) didn't exist before now, is a strong claim with several layers. Unpacking it would be interesting, but I doubt it would be straightforward.

[gooddragon1]

Just discovered: The "Elfen" is a lie.

There's no character named Elfen in the series. So that person couldn't have lied in the show. There aren't even elves in the show :/.

[LaZodiac]

Just discovered: The "Elfen" is a lie.

There's no character named Elfen in the series. So that person couldn't have lied in the show. There aren't even elves in the show :/.

There are in the sense that elves are typically categorized under fey or spirits, and there's a ton of those going on in that series.

[gooddragon1]

There are in the sense that elves are typically categorized under fey or spirits, and there's a ton of those going on in that series.

Until a weapon with Bane vs Humanoids, elf starts doing extra damage against them they're not elves, at least in the eyes of D&D 3.5...

[Lethologica]

All else aside, "Lied" is the German Romantic musical poem form, not the falsehood. Whether the show or anything in it qualifies as elvensong is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Ibrinar]

There are in the sense that elves are typically categorized under fey or spirits, and there's a ton of those going on in that series.

Though about the title I really do wonder why it was chosen, though maybe it is clearer if you finished the story. Elfen Lied means elven song but there is also a poem or song called that. Some googling says the song appears twice in the manga once to teach someone singing. But the text of the song seems to have little connection to the story.

[Kato]

People really wonder if anything makes sense in that story? (/cynism)
As much as I dislike it, I guess it is by far not the only title with little importance to the story, and if it was the only thing wrong with it that would be a huge improvement. But appropriating other languages for your titles is so common you really can't complain about it. Not that I feel the need to, I just prefer titles that tell me something about the story.

[gooddragon1]

Elfen Truthed: A western animation (like Justice League Unlimited animation) story/slice of life about a super hero elf named Elfen with superhuman strength who's weakness is that he must always tell the truth.

:D