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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    I just want to point out that the third Dwagon looks suspiciously unwounded. Except for being torn to pieces by the Archon that is.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    I fail to see what's interesting about the people with overwhelming odds in their favour winning. Sure, that's expected, but there's a lot of folks saying this is more "interesting", and I just don't see that.

    Simply put, we were set up to expect Ansom to win, so why is it "interesting" to see him win?
    Because in the genre of fantasy stories, as well as stories in which a ringer is brought in, setting us up to think the antagonists are going to win is essentially setting us up to see the protagonists win?

    PS Dwagons die but they get the Arkenpliers, clearly.
    Last edited by Brianish; 2007-08-30 at 09:47 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    I't is not 100% clear which hex of dwagons they are attacking, she might have shifted and directly attacked the ring.

    just a thought.

    edit: seems I am by no means the first to think of this, ah well :)
    Last edited by Stonedef; 2007-08-30 at 09:47 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Wow. Parson & Gobwin Knob are doomed. Stanley cannot afford these kind of losses.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    The Archons are starting to become my favourite characters. Between their mercenary attitude, corporate buzzwords, kickass powers and general awesomeness, they're quite fun.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Ah... Ansom's Angels. Funny reference, brilliantly displayed.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Crap, three dwagons in the first round. And the barbarian has not even moved yet!
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Brianish View Post
    Because in the genre of fantasy stories, as well as stories in which a ringer is brought in, setting us up to think the antagonists are going to win is essentially setting us up to see the protagonists win?
    Remember: Rocky lost.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Hell yeah! Personnaly I'm rooting for Ansom and Vinny so I'm really happy to see Jillian is croaking some dwagons. Sure Parson will probably win in the end but not in his first battle! That battle was already pretty much impossible to win so I assume they are just gonna retreat on dwagons and start all over again, that will be much more interesting to see.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Filet-o-dwagon anyone? Fry it, baste it, slice and serve. So just who is Stanley going to start raging at, Wanda or Parson?

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Keri Thornwood View Post
    Filet-o-dwagon anyone?
    Makes thousands of dwagon filets in seconds!

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Heh, I loved the use of business-meeting buzzwords for the archon's spells. Hilarious and yet somehow, appropriate.

    The art is fantastic on this one as well.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    That was totally too cool for words
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Vox View Post
    On reading this, I see a whole lot of people who seem a little....obsessed...with the idea that Jillian hasn't really turned on Wanda, that she isn't really going to kill the dwagons, that she's really going to rescue Ansom (a rationalized plan developed before the Archons started pressuring her, and presumable abandoned at this point), and other such speculations. Perhaps I'm simply fooled by the obvious...but since it is obvious let me state it clearly. Jillian Zamussels has just been freed from whatever spell Wanda placed on her, and is fulfilling her role as a warlord of the army of Prince Ansom of Jetstone by slaughtering the wounded dwagons to the last undead (pardon me, uncroaked) warlord. Period. Whatever relationship she has with Wanda (and however much she enjoys being physically, mentally and otherwise dominated by the Croakamancer), it is not affecting her hatred for Stanley the Tool, and it does not equal her love for Ansom. Blame the Archons, if you must, or blame Wanda for overconfidence in her magic, or blame Rich and Jamie for writing a pretty amazing webcomic....but I for one am simply delighted that Jillian's magically induced indecision is ended, and she is kicking butt once more (with the Archon's assistance, of course.)
    Say it like it is, brother! I hereby promote you to High Priest of the Girl Wonder Cult of the Liberated Jillian! Or, if you like, I'll happily serve as High Priestess of the Vox Cult of the Revealed Obviousness.

    And I don't even think Parson 'has' to win. He only has to avoid being disbanded, and I think it is plausible for Stanley to see this one as Wanda's goof-up. (Can Wanda be disbanded, since she wasn't summoned? I don't know?) Anyway, 'The Battle for Gobwin Knob' is only Part One, and it makes perfect sense if Stanley/etc. lose it, if we're assuming the GK gang are the true protagonists of the story. 'The Quest for the Arkentools' or somesuch is probably the name of the full story.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Say it like it is, brother! I hereby promote you to High Priest of the Girl Wonder Cult of the Liberated Jillian!
    Well, mostly. The most straightforward explanation is that the spell broke in exactly the way Sizemore thought it might.... but the non-magical aspects (submissive streak, Stockholm Syndrome, whatever) are probably a bit more persistent.

    After this turn ends, the conversations in both camps tonight should be most interesting.

    And I don't even think Parson 'has' to win. He only has to avoid being disbanded, and I think it is plausible for Stanley to see this one as Wanda's goof-up. (Can Wanda be disbanded, since she wasn't summoned? I don't know?) Anyway, 'The Battle for Gobwin Knob' is only Part One, and it makes perfect sense if Stanley/etc. lose it, if we're assuming the GK gang are the true protagonists of the story. 'The Quest for the Arkentools' or somesuch is probably the name of the full story.
    The problem is that Stanley has no way of paying upkeep for anything, including himself, without GK -- he'd have no income and he can't take his existing funds with him.

    In any case, it looks like Wanda just fell flat on her face while Sizemore's stock rose quite a bit (of which I approve; I find him to be the most generally likeable character on either side). Parson's situation is a bit murkier. On the plus side, he also expressed skepticism about Wanda's (over)confidence; on the minus side, his complete dependence on hiding the wounded dwagons without any backup plan whatsoever (e.g. the idea some folks had of mixing in a few healthy ones) in case they were found did make this fiasco possible.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-30 at 01:26 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Parson had to gamble, he have to make do with what he have and remember ... who dares wins.

    Also "the Hunt" was not likely a option from Ansom, if Parson did the unexpected so did Ansom but ultimate it seems some people are forgetting the fact the dwagons were lost no matter what option, the Ansom have a strong airforce that have the purpose of eliminating the dwagons during the siege.
    Last edited by Drakron; 2007-08-30 at 01:38 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post

    The problem is that Stanley has no way of paying upkeep for anything, including himself, without GK -- he'd have no income and he can't take his existing funds with him.
    Normally, I prefer to talk story and character, and leave the game-strategizing and rule-o-mancy to all the others who like to debate those things on these boards. But I wonder... if Stanley loses his last city, is he still an Overlord? I don't think he just disappears. Clearly units are capable of changing 'types', Stanley rose from the ranks of common infantry to become an overlord. Jillian could have inherited an overlord position, but instead became a mercenary warlord. Stanley promotes pretty-boy warlords from the ranks, and talks about demoting Parson from warlord status and sending him into the fight.

    So, given that units can both be promoted into and demoted out of categories, -and- can survive the defeat of their side/tribe (Wanda being the best example I can think of, though Stanley's statement that he could always escape GK's fall with the Arkenhammer adds to this), if GK falls, would it not still be possible for him, Sizemore, Wanda, and even Bogroll (perhaps he changes out of 'Garrison' type and gets a move score if there is no longer anything for him to garrison) to escape to live and plot from elsewhere? Perhaps hire on as mercenaries to another outfit and then take it over from inside and continue the strange Arkentool quest?

    Parson, I admit, is a bit trickier. Is his high 'upkeep' based on him being a summoned unit, or a warlord? Could, at the fall of GK, he morph into a non-warlord unit (losing his Warlord abilities to order units, etc) and thus require no upkeep? It's all really speculation at this point, but I don't think the loss of GK necessarily spells doom for our bad 'heroes', maybe not even Parson.
    Last edited by Girl Wonder; 2007-08-30 at 01:40 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Weeeeeeeeeeell, it may well be that the Parson supporters here are grasping at straws, trying to twist this into something even vaguely resembling a victory. Thus I mention the following with tounge securely in cheek:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html Here, Julian calls for the Archons to take the weak stack first, thus clearing the way for her to reach "the warlord".

    There are several things wrong with this. Firstly: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0066.html Panel 4. All of the "A dwagon" attack force is *in the same hex* There's no "weak hex" to punch through, everything is, for the purposes of Erfworld combat, in the same place. All units can be targeted at will, all units are sharing the same space until combat is resolved, etc.

    Secondly: If she is attacking the wounded dwagons, Julian would not need to have the way cleared to "the warlord". Julian is a warlord unit, and thus her forces can selectively engage anyone in the hex. She could charge right up to "the warlord" and croak him (this principle is illistrated in pannel 5 here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0073.html One of the archons is casually jabbing Manpower with a finger. If the current comic demonstrated an attack on the wounded dwagons, it would require a *substantial* suspension of disbelief on my part to believe that everything suddenly became a lot harder when Julian and Co have first-strike capability (because of Parson's order not to attack until attacked).

    Thirdly, the Dwagon attack team has *three* warlords in it. Julian's refers only to a single one. Granted, that could be an indication that she is personally recroaking each of them one at a time. However, it is an extremely awkward turn of phrase, and implies that her primary objective is to reach a *singular* warlord. If I'm wrong about all this, I submit it for inclusion in the "Erfworld Bloopers" thread, unless of course it is an effort on the author's part to build this very sort of speculation and dramatic tension.

    Fourth, from a plot standpoint, this is the best way to resolve the gambit. If that many dwagons die, and Jetstone does not take *substantial* losses in the process of achieving this, the balance is shot to hell and GK is booped. If Julian is paralyzed or turns, Ansom is croaked or captured. Either outcome gives the plot a robust boot to the groin, as it effectively ends the rising action, puts us past climax, and initiates the falling action. It could be this issue of Erfworld is coming to a close, but I personally believe the story has a lot of life in it yet. This works well to preserve the status-quo, as it diminshes both parties in the conflict, but not to a point where their side is crippled. GK loses some good dwagons (possibly quite a few, as Julian implies that she plans to croak multiple hexes, see current comic), and Ansom is reinforced. GK has it's strongest dwagons preserved, and can take out the siege, thus making for a more balanced confrontation later. The spell on Julian is up in the air, though this course of action implies it is still preseved (thus sparing Wanda's life). By the same token, it does not make her a traitor in Ansom's eyes because her action is perfectly justifiable based on her stated loyalties(adding evidence that the spell is to remain intact) In short, this line of reasoning keeps the story alive and interesting.

    Those are my observations, and in my view it is very reasonable to conclude that Julian is killing plenty of healthy dwagons, leaving the wounded ones be, and going to back up Ansom.
    Last edited by Ilmen Darkflame; 2007-08-30 at 02:04 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl Wonder View Post
    Perhaps hire on as mercenaries to another outfit and then take it over from inside and continue the strange Arkentool quest?
    Who'd hire Stanley? The man's a tactical neophyte. He's about as able to lead an army as my kid brother. Plus, he's already shown himself capable of regicide - who'd want to hire a mercenary already proven to be willing and quite capable of killing their ruler?
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    The problem is that Stanley has no way of paying upkeep for anything, including himself, without GK -- he'd have no income and he can't take his existing funds with him.

    In any case, it looks like Wanda just fell flat on her face while Sizemore's stock rose quite a bit (of which I approve; I find him to be the most generally likeable character on either side). Parson's situation is a bit murkier. On the plus side, he also expressed skepticism about Wanda's (over)confidence; on the minus side, his complete dependence on hiding the wounded dwagons without any backup plan whatsoever (e.g. the idea some folks had of mixing in a few healthy ones) in case they were found did make this fiasco possible.
    I find it somewhat unlikely that a character would have to pay his own upkeep when he's not part of any clan. Certainly we have a couple of members of lost clans (Wanda and Jillian) who while we don't know their details yet, I'd say it's improbable they brought part of the treasury with them to hold them over until they got new gigs. I think the upkeep is related to position mostly, if Parson wasn't a warlord his upkeep wouldn't be anything like it is.

    As for mixing healthy and wounded dwagons, it would have weakened the traps effectiveness and made Ansom less likely to fall for it. Taking out the siege would have slowed down Ansom's army progress considerably, but taking out Ansom would have potentially ended the conflict.

    Ultimately winning against such an overwhelming force is going to require taking a gambit at some point, it just so happens that this was not one that paid off the way it was setup. Now if only Parson can make Stanley see things in a similar light.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Who'd hire Stanley?
    Er... somebody who wants a force of tame dwagons on their side?

    (Of course, you'd have to put some kind of tight leash on him to avert a repeat performance of the regicide thing. )

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    Taking out the siege would have slowed down Ansom's army progress considerably, but taking out Ansom would have potentially ended the conflict.
    The seige is still a sounder option because at this point it is still improperly defended and for the most point is required to invade the city (the other options are not good). Taking out Ansom could wreck the alliance but it also is a bigger risk and has no garunteed pay off.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    On Ilmen's point, I think there are even more arguments in support:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilmen Darkflame View Post
    Those are my observations, and in my view it is very reasonable to conclude that Julian is killing plenty of healthy dwagons, leaving the wounded ones be, and going to back up Ansom.
    For what it is worth, I agree, after re-reading the strip and the precedeing strip. Obviously it has been left intentionally ambiguous.

    The evidence in support of the conclusiong that Jillian is leading the Archons to attack a hex of the dwagon fort are summarized (partly from your post and others) as follows:

    1) Wanda's confidence that Jillian will not attack and eliminate the wounded dwagons
    2) The Archons' confidence that there is no point in trying to persuade Jillian to attack the wounded dwagons
    3) The Archons' expressions of consternation in page 68
    4) The reference to "weak stack first" in panel 1 of page 69. There is no "weak stack" of the wounded dwagons.
    5) The reference to opening the door to the warlord (singular) as a reference to Ansom
    6) The reference to opening the door to the warlord, given that no door opening is required to target warlords in the same hex, therefore implying that entry to the side of the dwagon fort is referred to.
    7) The conspicuously unscared dwagon being sliced and diced in the second to last panel of page 69
    8) Careful review of Jillian's speech in the final panel of 68. She says "I'll see you after I croak some dwagons." considering that with her reference to love may lead the overly-analytical to conclude that she didn't mean "after I croak these dwagons.", rather she meant that she was coming directly to Ansom over the dead bodies of a weak side of the dwagon fort.
    9) Plot reasons. GK and Parson need successes to stay alive, and setbacks of such a monumental nature would end the narrative.


    Therefore I believe that Jillian and company are croaking some 4 uninjured dwagons on the side hex of the dwagon fort, and potentially she and the Archons will risk injury which will make the attack on the wounded dwagons impossible.

    Last edited by spite48; 2007-08-30 at 02:21 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    First it seems that Jillian has really taken up Ansom's side here, but I'm just going to toss this out. (side note, perhaps her eyes have changed to blue from breaking the spell? Ansom's eyes seem to be the same color...)



    What if shes trying to gauge the ability's of the archons? "Whatcha got, girls?"


    Plus, now the archons have attacked, and they are all huddled next to each other in that oh so classy pose.


    Whats the chances the first frame of the next comic is a single sword attack from Jillian taking out all three archons?

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    I want to go on record as believing that the theory that Jillian and the Archons are attacking the healthy fort dwagons is speculation far beyond the bounds of reason. The arguments presented have more holes than a seedy magician's assistant's fishnet hose, and I'm pretty sure that if Rob had intended to show Jillian and co having moved out of the hex where they found the dwagons they were sent to find and on to a bunch of completely different dwagons, he would have given some kind of indication that didn't involve scouring for phantasms. I see no soundly-based reason to believe that they are anywhere other than where they appeared to be.

    Of course, I could be wrong. I can't conclusively prove that these speculations are full of boop, and I don't have the five hours it would take to verify and present all the refutations. So I'm going to wait and see. I'm going to ignore the wild speculation for now, and wait for forthcoming pages. If they prove me right, I'm going to fling some good-humored cream pies. If I'm wrong, you're all welcome to fling 'em at me.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    I note that no warlords on Tool's side died there, which makes me wonder if they shall survive this.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Verb-subject agreement

    "We've got what Jetstone paid for, Warlord!"
    [...]
    "Luckily for you ..."
    "They paid a lot"


    They, i.e. plural. Sounds like that means the Jetstone tribe, as opposed to Ansom himself. Have we heard much about the Jetstones and Ansom's king?

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Parson, I admit, is a bit trickier. Is his high 'upkeep' based on him being a summoned unit, or a warlord? Could, at the fall of GK, he morph into a non-warlord unit (losing his Warlord abilities to order units, etc) and thus require no upkeep? It's all really speculation at this point, but I don't think the loss of GK necessarily spells doom for our bad 'heroes', maybe not even Parson.
    I think that upkeep is related not to being a summoned unit or a warlord, but the type of rations for a unit. On page 39 panel 4 Tool says "Yeah, it (the rations) better pop" then says the cost of Parson's rations. I think as long as they can find Parson food he'll be fine. Plus not getting as much food as he's used to would be good for him.

    4) The reference to "weak stack first" in panel 1 of page 69. There is no "weak stack" of the wounded dwagons.
    5) The reference to opening the door to the warlord (singular) as a reference to Ansom
    6) The reference to opening the door to the warlord, given that no door opening is required to target warlords in the same hex, therefore implying that entry to the side of the dwagon fort is referred to.
    4) How do you know there isn't a weak stack of wounded dwagons? Parson could have split up the dwagons into multiple stacks. On page 57 "stack one" is told to assult. On page 49 Parson says "The next stack the same way" I don't recall anything that says every unit in one hex has to be in the same stack.
    5) Your right that wouldn't make any sense seeing how Parson is such a polite guy he would put all the warlords in one place for Jillian to croak with one swing of her sword.
    6) We have seen air units being used to protect the warlords before. Once with Jillian and her orlies, another time when Vinny suggested filling dwagons faces with bats.
    Last edited by Lamech; 2007-08-30 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Used hex when I should have used stack

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Stupidest. Comic. Ever.

    A Deus Ex Machina solution! Wow, great!!! If 3 girls do that, why even bother bring an army?


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    Default Re: Erfworld 75, page 69

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    4) How do you know there isn't a weak hex of wounded dwagons? Parson could have split up the dwagons into multiple stacks. On page 57 "stack one" is told to assult. On page 49 Parson says "The next stack the same way" I don't recall anything that says every unit in one hex has to be in the same stack.
    This is a little confusing only because the first time you said Hex, I think you meant stack. The entire issue with the earlier post is that the poster uses Hex and Stack interchangably when clearly they are not. A Hex is a location on the Grid, a Stack is a grouping of creatures (that may or may not have a warlord).
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