Erfworld 75, page 69

[SteveMB]

you i have to question the griffon jillian is sitting on. Can this even count as an extra attack? Assuming a dragon is spaced out to be 2 spaces from each other and assuming a unit cannot move once they have attacked (standard in most tbs games) won't jillian + gryphon really only = 1 attack? Once jillian attacks she kills a dragon and since the gryphon can't move what is the gryphon going to attack?

We have an established precedent (page 25, frame 8) for a rider and mount attacking separate targets simultaneously (provided that there are two targets in range, obviously).

Also, the raids on the siege units would seem to indicate that attackers can hit one target and move on to the next one. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to a mount and rider each making their attacks.

[BRC]

Heh, as I've stated before Goblins isn't half as bad as this. Sure they spent 2 months on a fight but really, was the outcome in doubt? Some moments had drama, like when The Sargent fought Complains and when BE fought Seral but they were almost seperate plot elements that were dealt with quickly. Also, they were new elements. We didn't know about the Longsword or Seral coming at first.

Totally different here. We pretty much knew right from the start all the forces available on either side so the question is which can beat the other? Will Jillian stay controled by Wanda? How clever is Parson's plan? Everything we have wondered right from the klog where Parson set this into motion we have been waiting and WAITING for answers and we've got nothing yet. I want resolution of old issues and new things to ponder.

Wait wait, your saying that goblins is better because they have long drawn out fight scenes where you already know the outcome, but Erfworld is fatally flawed because your kept in suspense and there is actually some tension because the characters you sympathise with may not win?

[Arkenputtyknife]

You may be correct, but as you say, we shall see. I wish you would refer to my previous message on the subject, as the holes you refer to are not obvious to me.

I would love to do just that, but time doesn't permit and it would do no one any good for me to do a half-assed job on it. Nevertheless, the first thing that struck me about the fort-dwagon theory is the amount of work that has to be put in to justify it, given what the comic appears to be telling us at face value. It doesn't prove the theory is wrong, but it should at the least raise alarm bells and make you ask yourself, “Am I chasing a red herring here?”

If the flaws in the arguments were obvious, I'm sure you wouldn't have presented them. But when a theory is this counterintuitive, and evidence has to be piled up to justify it (remember that evidence can't prove a theory, it can only disprove it—the trick is to be left holding the one theory that couldn't be knocked down), it's a good idea to take a good, hard look at the evidence being presented, and ask yourself, “Am I following in Blondlot's footsteps?”

[Zelig the Liar]

I like this turn of events. We get to learn a little more about the Archons, not that anything about them has been surprising yet. Parson's latest devious plan may be booped, but he'll come up with more. It's not exactly like he's lost everything. He did a lot of damage to the siege units. And this is really only the first turn he's had control, after all. He'll come up with something clever for next turn. I'm certain that he's impressed Stanley enough with the attacks on the column and his nearly flawless ambush plan to avoid being disbanded over this. Personally, I think this is a good lesson for him in not depending on someone else's actions to safeguard one's own plans.

I think this is the real Jillian we're seeing now, or at least closer to it than the defensive, secretive, traitorous, possibly self-loathing Jillian that we were introduced to. Of course, she might be being controlled directly by Wanda, if Jillian called GK before she called Ansom, but I think the Archons are acting too enthusiastic to be party to more treachery. And we can't cast on the enemy's turn so it can't be a new spell.

Of course, I might just be being

overly simplistic, and probably wrong.

[Moral Wiz]

I like this turn of events. We get to learn a little more about the Archons, not that anything about them has been surprising yet. Parson's latest devious plan may be booped, but he'll come up with more. It's not exactly like he's lost everything. He did a lot of damage to the siege units. And this is really only the first turn he's had control, after all. He'll come up with something clever for next turn. I'm certain that he's impressed Stanley enough with the attacks on the column and his nearly flawless ambush plan to avoid being disbanded over this. Personally, I think this is a good lesson for him in not depending on someone else's actions to safeguard one's own plans.

I think this is the real Jillian we're seeing now, or at least closer to it than the defensive, secretive, traitorous, possibly self-loathing Jillian that we were introduced to. Of course, she might be being controlled directly by Wanda, if Jillian called GK before she called Ansom, but I think the Archons are acting too enthusiastic to be party to more treachery. And we can't cast on the enemy's turn so it can't be a new spell.

Of course, I might just be being

I am conflicted. On the one hand, I want to yell at you that loosing the Dwagons is loosing everything , as the coilition still has half it's seige. That would probably be acceptable, especially as it would more than halve Stanley's "Greatest remaining threat, and the damage can't be repaired in the interim.

on the other hand, I've finally been quoted. Even in jest.

Ho hum. Anything's possible here. You might be being overly simple. Or I might be clutching at straws.Looks like you are in the right, but their is some evidence for me. Let's see.

[tomaO2]

Wait wait, your saying that goblins is better because they have long drawn out fight scenes where you already know the outcome, but Erfworld is fatally flawed because your kept in suspense and there is actually some tension because the characters you sympathise with may not win?

Yea, pretty much. The tension is going on too long. That's fine for a few weeks but gets annoying after a few months. The Goblin's battle lasts months too but with unexpected suprises like Seral. On the other hand, with Erfworld it's just the same old situation with nothing... New. Goblins are winning then, oops, something new, now maybe not. Threat get's dealt with, now, they are winning again.

Parson attacks and kills seige but he's not winning (he's still hoplessly outnumbered and his wounded dwagons are open to attack. If they can be found. Which was probably likely. Especially since they were right in the middle of a direct route that Jillian would have to take to get to Ansom). Ansom counterattacks but Parson sucks Ansom into a trap but noooo Parson isn't winning yet. In fact the trap seems lame and one wonders if Parson should have bothered at this point. Then Jillian comes along and if she misses the wounded dwagons Parson may have a chance but nooo she sees them. Maybe she won't attack? Noooooo, look, there she goes. Parson is still losing and if his warlords die it's OVER. There are no realistic second chances here. No escapes. The goblins could at least try and run if worst came to worst but that's not applicable here in Erfworld. The tension has gone on over too many pages. I'm asking for a little relief here, some shread that GK has an actual shot at surviving. That the raiding party may survive after all. SOMETHING!

And it's not arrogent if of me to say the art is a mistake if it actually IS a mistake. Jas and Ben, your both saying that there is a good reason for the apperent discontinuity, well I hope you are correct and I apologize gladly for my mistaken assumption. I hope there IS a good reason. However this page has shattered my belief that this is the case and I'm saying that I think it's a mistake if that's so and it sounds like you both agree if that's so. So there's no real argument here.

[Mount]

If it's not actually a spell, what was Wanda doing at the end of page 30, and what's with the sparklies around Jillian's head on page 36?

Pain spell, would be my guess. As for the sparklies around Jilly's head, that's a fairly usual cartoon way of showing someone's been hit hard/is feeling pain/is dizzy (orbiting stars), which would logically follow from a pain spell. I suspect that Wanda and Jillian just have history, and it's simpler for Wanda to tell the Tool that it's a spell, rather than trying to explain love (and/or S&M) to him. Of course, the Archons did actually say "Or is it that SPELL on you?" so, the scroll and sparklies could actually be a suggestion spell as is the general consensus.

Parson's raids destroyed about fifty siege units with attacks from 19 dwagons. Obviously, units can attack more than once per turn.

They don't necessarily have to attack multiple times per turn, if they're attacking the whole stack at once; a single high-powered dwagonstwike could damage multiple units within a single stack if it's an "area effect" sort of thing (as most games treat dragon breath). So, say I have a stack of 7 catapults with 100 hp each (one short of max-stack, leaving room to move in a Warlord for combat bonuses if I want to). Three dwagons swoop in, and blast one catapult each, killing a catapult with each 100-damage attack. If they do 35 collateral damage to all other units in the stack, then the third attack not only will kill the target catapult, but also all the other remaining units. Even at only 20 splash damage, you could knock out 4 8-stacks (48 units) with 4 5-stacks (20 dwagons).

In pretty much every wargame I've played, units like catapults are horribly weak against... well anything but city walls, really. It generally a good idea to have a partial stack of siege, and several units that can defend them (4 catapults and 4 battle bears, for example) So theoretically, you could attack the sturdier defenders first, and let splash damage wipe the weaker units like catapults and archers.

[Krelon]

If Parson loses the lake force that'll make sure for me that he is not the big hero of the comic, just a way to bring Erfworld nearer to the readers... cause the authors will have to trick heavily and pull out a green beam of distruction from nowhere to make GK win.

However... IF there is still a spell on Jillian (which is very likely), don't you think Wanda might have a red emergency button? Press button, paralyze Jillian and suddenly the chances are much better that 39%. For me that would be a satisfying, fair and sound solution.

Wanda was awfully sure that things can't go wrong. She exclaimed "You don't know the nature of the spell!". Couldn't that be a hint that Jillian's behavoiur was all emotional conditioning while the spell is some sort of backup?

[katana2665]

ouch......

[Zelig the Liar]

I am conflicted. On the one hand, I want to yell at you that loosing the Dwagons is loosing everything , as the coilition still has half it's seige. That would probably be acceptable, especially as it would more than halve Stanley's "Greatest remaining threat, and the damage can't be repaired in the interim.

on the other hand, I've finally been quoted. Even in jest.

Ho hum. Anything's possible here. You might be being overly simple. Or I might be clutching at straws.Looks like you are in the right, but their is some evidence for me. Let's see.

Too true.

To quote Einstein in the intro to Red Alert:

"Time will tell," *winds watch*, "Time... will tell."...
...
...
DUM dada dum dada DUM DUM
"Present arms!!"
DUM dada dum dada DUM DUM
"Left, MARCH!!" ---

Oops, let that quote play a little longer than intended. >_>

[Moral Wiz]

...Ok.

You do realise that I now have to pick up a copy of the first decade, just after i'd finally persuaded myself that the early C&C games were outdated and not worth buying, install it. Just to watch that intro.

Damn you Zelig! Damn YOU!

[factotum]

You do realise that I now have to pick up a copy of the first decade, just after i'd finally persuaded myself that the early C&C games were outdated and not worth buying, install it. Just to watch that intro.

Or you could just search for it on Youtube...

[jmsl]

Not that I want or need Parson to win (I don't really care about him), but even a complete wipe out of the A Dwagons does not mean that Gobwin Knob is lost. It is a huge setback, and seems likely to cause some major tantrums, but it's not game over yet. Ansom is still at some risk; there are other forces besides Dwagons, and even a defeat isn't automatically the end of the story.

My major worry at this point is actually the end of the book, and I'm trying to figure out how many pages are left and what could fit into them and how long it's going to take before we get to read them all. The wait time is distressing.

The Archons' attacks were pretty (or gross), but was there any relation at all to their buzzword names, or is that a meme or trope? I also got a small kick out of having to fight their way to the first warlord, when they could give him wet willies before. It sounds now like you can send in multiple stacks of up to 8, but they fight "individually" as stacks? There's so very much unknown about the combat mechanics that all the rabid speculation and worry seems misplaced. It's one thing to argue about consistency or possibilities when you have multiple books or movies, but we've got 75 pages, very few of which detail the laws of the world. Being an author is suddenly a very scary prospect.

So if they weren't well paid, would the Archons attack with outdated buzzwords that barely registered on a Dwagon's scaly hide? That seems like it might be hazardous to their own long-term survival, assuming they aren't replaced regularly due to contract disputes.

[Moral Wiz]

Or you could just search for it on Youtube...

Where's the fun in that?

[Rollin]

The Archons' attacks were pretty (or gross), but was there any relation at all to their buzzword names, or is that a meme or trope?

I tried to fit them into some relation to the attacks at first, but then I realized that, if they were supposed to be related, the last buzzword would certainly have been "Cutting Edge".

[Lamech]

The green dwagon should have had some other damage on the cut up pieces to show he is a wounded dwagon. Now, you don't HAVE to have extra damage on the dwagon and I know it's extra work but the effort would have been appreciated by us, the readers. As can be seen, the neglect of these things has put in much needless speculation by your readership.

Of course perhaps the spell just increased the exsisting damage or mabey it just hit already injured parts of the dwagons because thats where the dwagons hide was the weakest.

I'm bitterly dissapointed with how this is playing out. If Parson actually won in a straight battle it would not feel right. Something would have to happen to shift the odds and the only thing I can think of that might fill the bill is if Parson is actually a Luckmancer and the stress of the situation caused him to activate his power and with his Mathmancy device he could then win.

Why would something happen to have to shift the odds Parson has a 39% chance of winning. He has a chance. Look when Jillian was one hex away her chance of finding the dwagons while going to Ansom was about 50%. That would leave her total odds of wiping out the dwagons at 30%. Are you saying that Parson can't get lucky, but the coalition can? Its perfectly logical that Parson has a chance of winning.

So what next then? What happens if DK collapses? Without a city you can't raise an army. What happens if Parson goes to Ansom? With no enemy, no war to fight, where is the interest?

Can't raise an army? What are you talking about? Remember that page with the crap golems? What about the fact that Wanda can uncroak stuff? Or perhaps Stanley could use the Arkenhammer, you know the thing that is responsible for his most powerful units? Stanley doesn't need a city to get more troops.

[Moral Wiz]

Of course perhaps the spell just increased the exsisting damage or mabey it just hit already injured parts of the dwagons because thats where the dwagons hide was the weakest.

Hmm. Interesting idea. But. even including that, it seems unlikely, as the remaining parts of the Dwagon seem undamaged. Quite possible though.

Why would something happen to have to shift the odds Parson has a 39% chance of winning. He has a chance. Look when Jillian was one hex away her chance of finding the dwagons while going to Ansom was about 50%. That would leave her total odds of wiping out the dwagons at 30%. Are you saying that Parson can't get lucky, but the coalition can? Its perfectly logical that Parson has a chance of winning.

I can't follow your statistics, but it's true, that Parson might have a chance just as is. If so, this could end up prety evan, loads of Dwagons croaked, along with the most effective counter mesure to them. So it'd be a slight victory for GK, as they take out the seige, and still have some Dwagons. Not full though, as they don't have the numbers, and the Coalition still has archers.

Can't raise an army? What are you talking about? Remember that page with the crap golems? What about the fact that Wanda can uncroak stuff? Or perhaps Stanley could use the Arkenhammer, you know the thing that is responsible for his most powerful units? Stanley doesn't need a city to get more troops.

Sizemore needed raw material though. And stanley might just come with the ability to pop dwagons that can then be tamed. Even giving them the three, it may be hard to go up against a more balanced army.

[Lamech]

Sizemore needed raw material though. And stanley might just come with the ability to pop dwagons that can then be tamed. Even giving them the three, it may be hard to go up against a more balanced army.

Yes well that is what yellow dwagons are for, but your right it wouldn't work so well against a balanced army. Though hopefully they could find a city that isn't well defended.

I can't follow your statistics,

When Jillian was in the lake hex, I assumed that Jillian could only see things in her hex, and since she had two paths to Ansom one which led through the dwagons, she had a 50% chance of finding the dwagons (if my assumption was correct). Then she had a 61% chance of wiping them out. She would have a thirty percent chance of finding them and beating them, but now that has went up to 61%. Hope that clears things up, but it isn't inportant anyway.

[BRC]

Yea, pretty much. The tension is going on too long. That's fine for a few weeks but gets annoying after a few months. The Goblin's battle lasts months too but with unexpected suprises like Seral. On the other hand, with Erfworld it's just the same old situation with nothing... New. Goblins are winning then, oops, something new, now maybe not. Threat get's dealt with, now, they are winning again.

Parson attacks and kills seige but he's not winning (he's still hoplessly outnumbered and his wounded dwagons are open to attack. If they can be found. Which was probably likely. Especially since they were right in the middle of a direct route that Jillian would have to take to get to Ansom). Ansom counterattacks but Parson sucks Ansom into a trap but noooo Parson isn't winning yet. In fact the trap seems lame and one wonders if Parson should have bothered at this point. Then Jillian comes along and if she misses the wounded dwagons Parson may have a chance but nooo she sees them. Maybe she won't attack? Noooooo, look, there she goes. Parson is still losing and if his warlords die it's OVER. There are no realistic second chances here. No escapes. The goblins could at least try and run if worst came to worst but that's not applicable here in Erfworld. The tension has gone on over too many pages. I'm asking for a little relief here, some shread that GK has an actual shot at surviving. That the raiding party may survive after all. SOMETHING!

And it's not arrogent if of me to say the art is a mistake if it actually IS a mistake. Jas and Ben, your both saying that there is a good reason for the apperent discontinuity, well I hope you are correct and I apologize gladly for my mistaken assumption. I hope there IS a good reason. However this page has shattered my belief that this is the case and I'm saying that I think it's a mistake if that's so and it sounds like you both agree if that's so. So there's no real argument here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that erfworld is being planned out as a graphic novel, not a webcomic, so in the final form this "Horrible Tension" will exist for minutes instead of months.

[factotum]

Hmmmm. Given Vinnie's feeling that they won't be part of the Titan's story for much longer, I've been wondering something. The Archons clearly stated to Jillian that wiping out the stack of weak dwagons would also save Ansom--but why? If the weak dwagons and their warlords are destroyed, Parson still has a ring of 20+ B-dwagons who can pile in on the hex where Ansom is next turn. Without warlords they wouldn't be as effective, but if some or all of Jillian's gwiffons get killed attacking the weak dwagons, suddenly her rescue plan becomes impossible.

I do wonder if Ansom doesn't really understand why Stanley is fighting. He might not realise that his whole purpose is to gather the Arkentools. Given what we know of Stanley, he'll consider a swap of Gobwin Knob for the Arkenpliers to be fair and dandy, and that's what he might end up with now Jillian is attacking the weak dwagons.

[tomaO2]

Thinking about it some more, I have to say the reason this is really getting to me is the fact that Parson's troops are unable to move.

This is the only comic I've ever read that's based on a turn based game and while it's really interesting I have to admit that I understand what Parson meant when he talked about how helpless he felt having to sit around and wait to be attacked on Ansom's turn. It's infuriating that this is happening and there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

[spite48]

If the flaws in the arguments were obvious, I'm sure you wouldn't have presented them. But when a theory is this counterintuitive, and evidence has to be piled up to justify it (remember that evidence can't prove a theory, it can only disprove it—the trick is to be left holding the one theory that couldn't be knocked down), it's a good idea to take a good, hard look at the evidence being presented, and ask yourself, “Am I following in Blondlot's footsteps?”

I absolutely agree that my theory (first advanced by others) isn't the obvious conclusion, but there is evidence that softly contradicts the obvious explanation, and my theory addresses that evidence. It is rampant speculation, all in good fun. I am not trying to disprove the theory of gravity. As you say: we shall see.

[Theodoriph]

What aggravates me are the number of people who come here clamoring about dex macs and the archons being unstoppable killing machines able to win the war all by their lonesome. Yes, their attacks looked nifty and neat, but they were attacking dwagons with virtually no health left. You're like those people who actually believe Derek Jeter is a good defensive shortstop.

Calm down. Take a chill pill. And wait to see what happens.

My small pseudo-rant being over, I can't wait to see how Parson extricates himself (or is extricated) from this situation (or the consequences that result). =)

[Arkenputtyknife]

The Archons clearly stated to Jillian that wiping out the stack of weak dwagons would also save Ansom--but why? If the weak dwagons and their warlords are destroyed, Parson still has a ring of 20+ B-dwagons who can pile in on the hex where Ansom is next turn.

First off, the dwagons over the lake aren't the weak dwagons; they're the strong dwagons. They're just badly wounded right now. But next turn, that all changes.

If I'm understanding the situation correctly, Ansom believed his troops would be sufficient to defend themselves against the B-dwagons' assault on the next turn, or at least go out in a blaze of glory while wiping out most of them. However, that plan depended on first wiping out all the wounded A-dwagons.

But if the A-dwagons were not found and eliminated, on the next turn Ansom would find himself stomped upon by the B-dwagons and the now fully-restored A-dwagons all at the same time. That's a big hurt that he knows he can't survive.

Without warlords they wouldn't be as effective, but if some or all of Jillian's gwiffons get killed attacking the weak dwagons, suddenly her rescue plan becomes impossible.

Jillian's rescue plan was misguided from the start, at least as far as Ansom was concerned. Her job in The Hunt was to find and take out the A-dwagons so the big hurt wouldn't happen.

I do wonder if Ansom doesn't really understand why Stanley is fighting. He might not realise that his whole purpose is to gather the Arkentools.

I think that may well be right. He seemed surprised when Vinny said that the trap was for him.

[North]

ack im more interested in Wandas reaction at this point....

[Moral Wiz]

ack im more interested in Wandas reaction at this point....

Actually, wherever Jill's attacking, I don't think we'll see inside the GK war room untill the end of this.

Why? Because Rob and Jamie seem to have set this up to be uncertian. The fact that only the sky is shown, when a few trees, or a bit of water would have been easy. The Dwagon's HP being concealed by the SFX (when previously, the wounds were emphasized). The speach that is either "Strength in Decision" or "A cunning ploy" depending on who you ask.

I'd say Rob and Jamie set this up very carefully, just so we wouldn't know for sure what's going on. Either letting the Jetstone fans(UGH! I just noticed, Jetson + Flintstone=Jetstone. the "perfect families"). think they are going to win, "Prefect Warlord" be dammed, or letting us Parsonites have a last moment of hope. Either way the GK war room is the only place that knows what's going on. It has the lookamancer table. If it was shown, the confusion would be cleared up. In contrast to Ansom, who won't know till report time (So we might well cut to his camp next strip).

Unless the muddying of the issue was an accident. Possible, but considering the skill of both artist and writer, unlikely.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Because Rob and Jamie seem to have set this up to be uncertian. The fact that only the sky is shown, when a few trees, or a bit of water would have been easy.

More likely they didn't think it necessary. I know that if this were my comic, I'd have been astonished by the theories being presented. But I'm not Rob…

Anyway, I suspect we are going to see the Situation Room next turn, because really, this story isn't about the battle. It's about the key players in it. And right now, there must be a lot of recrimination going on in GK.

[Moral Wiz]

More likely they didn't think it necessary. I know that if this were my comic, I'd have been astonished by the theories being presented. But I'm not Rob….

You keep on saying "These theories are rediculous" and similar statements. Can you please justify that? Cos I've taken a lot of care to ensure my theories fit the facts and don't streatch them. So said theories simply being dismissed as "rediculous" annoys me.

Anyway, I suspect we are going to see the Situation Room next turn, because really, this story isn't about the battle. It's about the key players in it. And right now, there must be a lot of recrimination going on in GK.

Do you mean next strip?

If, indeed, you are correct, and the confusion was unintentional then we probably will. However, I'm still guessing we're off to Ansom and Vinnie as that won't prove any theory right or wrong, and IMO this could be best streatched out one more strip before a finale or confirmation for good dramatic effect in paperback form (which Erfworld is intended to be read as).

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It seems to me, from a story writer's perspective, that the events took place all too well for things to NOT conclude with the stack rushing directly to Ansom.

Think about it for a moment. The nature of the spell is such that she cannot attack the wounded dwagons, she will not fight for Stanley, and she loves Ansom (thus won't attack him). The only possible action she could take while not ending several key aspects of character development within the story is just what she has done, and (in my ever so humble opinion) what she will be revealed as doing. She made the call that accomplishes two things. 1, she has shown that she HAD the chance to off the weak dwagons but instead- 2, excused herself for passing them by with both her status as a feel willed individual (devoid of national ties or interests, thus not giving a crap about the allied forces) AND her love for Ansom.

So what action meets the needs of the spell AND follows in line with her actions thus far? She's after Ansom. It's good storytelling. I look forward to the next few strips.

[SteveMB]

Spoiler

Show

The nature of the spell is such that she cannot attack the wounded dwagons, she will not fight for Stanley, and she loves Ansom (thus won't attack him).

That's assuming the spell is still in effect. My interpretation is that it isn't (because what we've seen is exactly the scenario -- "...'ignore enemy forces' may be too hard for her to rationalize..." -- Sizemore worried about a few page ago). There may be, and probably are, remaining effects from the mundane psychological components of Wanda's campaign of establishing control, but those are exactly the sorts of things Jillian is used to shoving to the back of her mind by immersing herself in combat.