Booming blade/greenflame blade on a rogue

[krunchyfrogg]

Let’s say I play an arcane trickster.

Does it work to cast booming blade, get sneak attack damage and bonus action disengage out of there?

Alternately, will it work on a swashbuckler and I’d still have access to a different bonus action because of fancy footwork?


Thank you!

[Aett_Thorn]

Yes, this works. As long as you're using BB/GFB with a Finesse weapon, you're all set.

[Ventruenox]

Note that trying to use this with a whip will require the Spell Sniper feat to use BB/GFB with reach.

[krunchyfrogg]

Alright, cool. Seems like a real fun combo.

I’m trying to weigh which subclass it works better for.

Swashbuckler requires a feat or high elf race for the cantrip. But you’ll almost always get sneak attack damage.

Arcane trickster can be a different race, but B.B. isn’t as good, since, to get sneak attack, the opponent will still have a good target.

[Greywander]

Swashbuckler requires a feat or high elf race for the cantrip. But you’ll almost always get sneak attack damage.

Arcane trickster can be a different race, but B.B. isn’t as good, since, to get sneak attack, the opponent will still have a good target.

I'm AFB, but IIRC the Mobile feat will prevents creatures you've attacked (regardless of hit or miss) from making opportunity attacks against you. Run up, BB, run back, bonus action to dash or hide. The speed boost from Mobile also helps this.

AT rogues can also get Shadow Blade, which gives advantage on attacks when you're in dim light or darkness (IIRC).

At the end of the day, I'd go with the subclass that most appeals to you. Either one can be made to work.

I'd probably favor BB over GFB. BB is extra damage if they move, but IMO it's actually more useful if you can prevent them from moving, particularly if it is a melee attacker or a squishy caster that would want to run away.

[Klorox]

It’s a bit more work to get booming blade on a swashbuckler, but it’s worth it.

Think about it: with a regular rogue, you can go in, use booming blade and get out of Dodge.

You’re going to want to get your sneak attack damage. This means there will be an ally next to the enemy. An ally next to the enemy means a target for your enemy, which means they’re never going to take advantage of that bonus damage because why would the enemy ever move when he has a valid target?

This is never an issue with a swashbuckler. Swashbucklers can choose enemies who do not have targets adjacent to themselves.

The swashbuckler dances in, casts booming blade, gets sneak attack damage, and gets out of there.

This leaves an enemy with the choice: do I move to attack, and automatically take damage? Do I stay still and waste a turn? Do I use a ranged attack (which usually isn’t as good as a melee attack)?

The answer here is definitely swashbuckler, at least for me. It’s worth the extra trouble to get the spell.

It doesn’t hurt that The Princess Bride is my favorite movie. :p

[Spiritchaser]

I'd probably favor BB over GFB. BB is extra damage if they move, but IMO it's actually more useful if you can prevent them from moving, particularly if it is a melee attacker or a squishy caster that would want to run away.

I’d advise the opposite, because, well, you’re a rogue

One of the things you probably want to do is be stealthy. Booming blade works very badly for that.

Now, if you’re a very flamboyant swashbuckler, then... maybe, but...

[Willie the Duck]

The one thing to note, especially for the swashbuckler: neither of BB/GFB work with two-weapon fighting. So, in the instances where you would be not using your bonus action to hide to get your sneak attack (say, because the party fighter is standing next to your opponent), you are sacrificing the consistency that two to-hit roll grants your SA damage for a greater total damage when you do hit (and the fun of seeing an opponent decide to follow you and go boom or not). So it is dependent upon your game as to how much technical advantage this build gives.

[bid]

The one thing to note, especially for the swashbuckler: neither of BB/GFB work with two-weapon fighting. So, in the instances where you would be not using your bonus action to hide to get your sneak attack (say, because the party fighter is standing next to your opponent), you are sacrificing the consistency that two to-hit roll grants your SA damage for a greater total damage when you do hit (and the fun of seeing an opponent decide to follow you and go boom or not). So it is dependent upon your game as to how much technical advantage this build gives.

This is the bad side of BB. Not landing SA with your first and only attack results in a net loss of DPR. It's a big drop for swashbucklers without advantage.

[Davrix]

wouldn't war-caster solve this?

[Ventruenox]

No. It is using the Cast a Spell action on your turn. Unless you are a Sorcerer using Metamagics, you get one casting. That means one attack. Warcaster would just let you cast BB/GFB while both your hands are full.

[Dudewithknives]

One of the first things you will need to decide is, are you going to try to hit and run or are you going to stay in melee to try and get a reaction attack.

A few things I have notice playing a rogue:

1. Playing a melee rogue makes it much harder to get advantage on an attack, but you will activate sneak attack easier.

2. Having a way to make a bonus action attack is solid gold. Nothing turns things against the group faster than missing your one attack 2 or 3 turns in a row. As mentioned, ranged get easy advantage, melee usually doesn't.

3. If you rolled stats certain subclasses are better. AT is good with point buy, it is amazing if you rolled stats.

4. Arcane Trickster can get a familiar, which is amazing for getting advantage, it just depends on how often your DM kills the thing.

5. AT with mobile is great. Swashbuckler with magic initiate wizard is also great. But MI will only let you summon the familiar 1/day.

6. Never underestimate crossbow expert. It is just amazing.

[Willie the Duck]

wouldn't war-caster solve this?

No. It is using the Cast a Spell action on your turn. Unless you are a Sorcerer using Metamagics, you get one casting. That means one attack. Warcaster would just let you cast BB/GFB while both your hands are full.

To explain further for Davrix's benefit-- the rules for two-weapon fighting start with, "When you take the Attack action and...," and the attack one gets through BB/GFB do not fall into that set of actions, but instead the 'cast a spell' action.

[Klorox]

One of the first things you will need to decide is, are you going to try to hit and run or are you going to stay in melee to try and get a reaction attack.

A few things I have notice playing a rogue:

1. Playing a melee rogue makes it much harder to get advantage on an attack, but you will activate sneak attack easier.

2. Having a way to make a bonus action attack is solid gold. Nothing turns things against the group faster than missing your one attack 2 or 3 turns in a row. As mentioned, ranged get easy advantage, melee usually doesn't.

3. If you rolled stats certain subclasses are better. AT is good with point buy, it is amazing if you rolled stats.

4. Arcane Trickster can get a familiar, which is amazing for getting advantage, it just depends on how often your DM kills the thing.

5. AT with mobile is great. Swashbuckler with magic initiate wizard is also great. But MI will only let you summon the familiar 1/day.

6. Never underestimate crossbow expert. It is just amazing.

I’m pretty sure that since the thread is about using melee cantrips, it’s a melee rogue he’s looking for.

That being said, ranged rogues deal so much damage, and their squishiness isn’t a big deal.

[Mikal]

This is the bad side of BB. Not landing SA with your first and only attack results in a net loss of DPR. It's a big drop for swashbucklers without advantage.

That's why you go high elf and get elven advantage.
Triple advantage beats out two weapon fighting any day of the week.

Dip 2 levels of wizard for bladesinger, and use your owl familiar to generate said advantage when you can't get it normally.

I’d advise the opposite, because, well, you’re a rogue

One of the things you probably want to do is be stealthy. Booming blade works very badly for that.

Now, if you’re a very flamboyant swashbuckler, then... maybe, but...

Umm... this is completely wrong. Booming blade (despite the name) is as stealthy in every way as green flame blade... or for that matter a regular melee attack.

Only spells which specifically say they create loud noises do so. Otherwise they're as equal as any other attack a rogue can make.


My personal preference for this build is high elf arcane trickster, to get the familiar, add in a few levels of bladesinger, and take elven advantage asap.

You'll get a lot more use out of arcane ambush, you'll have a solid spell selection as a melee rogue including shadow blade and some non illusion and enchantment spells via wizard, and eventually you can retire the owl familiar once you can use your mage hand to generate advantage.

[Willie the Duck]

That's why you go high elf and get elven advantage.
Triple advantage beats out two weapon fighting any day of the week.

I've thought about that with a shield-master push-down fighter-rogue. Someone did the math, and it seems that triple advantage doesn't do all that much for DPR.

Dip 2 levels of wizard for bladesinger, and use your owl familiar to generate said advantage when you can't get it normally.

If your DM lets familiars work all the time, it is certainly the easiest and most reliable way to get advantage.

Umm... this is completely wrong. Booming blade (despite the name) is as stealthy in every way as green flame blade... or for that matter a regular melee attack.
Only spells which specifically say they create loud noises do so. Otherwise they're as equal as any other attack a rogue can make.

In theory, that is correct, but I don't think I know a single DM who would rule that way.

[DivisibleByZero]

I've thought about that with a shield-master push-down fighter-rogue. Someone did the math, and it seems that triple advantage doesn't do all that much for DPR.

Elven Advantage is amazingly over rated. If you have advantage at all you're probably going to hit. If you get super-extra-awesome-advantage you're still probably going to hit. No change. Slightly higher chance to crit. Not worth a feat, in my mind.
Not even close.

[Mikal]

I've thought about that with a shield-master push-down fighter-rogue. Someone did the math, and it seems that triple advantage doesn't do all that much for DPR.


If your DM lets familiars work all the time, it is certainly the easiest and most reliable way to get advantage.



In theory, that is correct, but I don't think I know a single DM who would rule that way.

Did they do the math with booming blade and sneak attack factored in? Because the extra damage that generates vs a second attack from offhand offsets it further.

And the owl familiar can last for a while even if the dm targets it if you use it tactically. And it's cheap to replace if it drops, giving you a secondary benefit of the enemy focusing on it vs one of the party for a round.

As for what dms you know, every dm I know rules that way, so that washes. Regardless, RAW that's how it goes. So not exactly theory, but reality unless you have a dm who house rules something illogically.

[Willie the Duck]

Did they do the math with booming blade and sneak attack factored in? Because the extra damage that generates vs a second attack from offhand offsets it further.

I can dig, but I think DBZ has the main of it-- In most situations, moving from 2 tries to roll enough to hit (because of advantage) gets you so close to the chance of hitting with 3 tries, that the incremental DPR is relatively slight. Assuming you could use the feat for something else highly beneficial to success, it seems like it underperforms.

And the owl familiar can last for a while even if the dm targets it if you use it tactically. And it's cheap to replace if it drops, giving you a secondary benefit of the enemy focusing on it vs one of the party for a round.

It is cheap to replace in terms of expenses, but it is decidedly non-trivial to replace mid-day or mid-dungeon in terms of time and such. So if it dies in the first combat, it might be a while before you can use it again. Of course, if it eats an attack, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if it just makes the opponents more likely to choose to launch an aoe, well, so it goes.

As for what dms you know, every dm I know rules that way, so that washes. Regardless, RAW that's how it goes. So not exactly theory, but reality unless you have a dm who house rules something illogically.

A thunder-damage effect causing noise is illogical? I think we should just agree to disagree.

[jojo]

Throw in 3 levels of Warlock for a chain pact familiar, sprites and imps have invisibility and so should be able to give either rogue access to Sneak Attack on demand by flanking.

Warlock also opens up the option of eliminating the variant human lack of darkvision through invocations, which nets you an added feat to play with at first level.

That extra feat prevents you from "losing" a feat due to having an odd level multi-class.

Additionally the "Distant Spell" meta-magic option for sorcerers opens up quite a few options. Twin spell just means you get to do it twice, if you want to go that route.

[krunchyfrogg]

Elven Advantage is amazingly over rated. If you have advantage at all you're probably going to hit. If you get super-extra-awesome-advantage you're still probably going to hit. No change. Slightly higher chance to crit. Not worth a feat, in my mind.
Not even close.

I agree dude. I mean, unless your character build has taken the +1 to a stat into consideration (like, let’s say you’re getting a 17 into an 18 as well as having a real use for the extra advantage), it just isn’t worth it.

[MrStabby]

Elven Advantage is amazingly over rated. If you have advantage at all you're probably going to hit. If you get super-extra-awesome-advantage you're still probably going to hit. No change. Slightly higher chance to crit. Not worth a feat, in my mind.
Not even close.

It depends on if you know you are going to get it and build around it. If you don't make the most of it then obviously it matches the rating that you have given it.

If you are running a MAD build but have a good and reliable source of advantage then you might want your attack stat at 16 or so. When you have as low as a 45% chance to hit against tough enemies then 3 dice instead of 2 is actually a pretty big increase in damage - especially as critical hits are such a big percentage of damage output.

It isn't like it's effect has to be that big to be worth taking - it comes with a +1 to a stat as well.

[Mikal]

A thunder-damage effect causing noise is illogical? I think we should just agree to disagree.

That's not what I said, so that's not the discussion.

If you look back I said it doesn't cause more noise than any other type of attack, not that it would be silent. It makes just as much noise as using a sword, firing an arrow, or casting any other spell that doesn't specifically say it creates a loud noise within a specific radius.

[Ventruenox]

"Booming" is defined by Google as being loud, deep, and resonating. Booming as a quality of energy is not defined in 5E. Therefore each table must rule what works for them. I imagine that because the target is sheathed by this energy, it is could be possible that those vibrations are only heard by the target. The verbal component to the spell and the attack itself would still be heard by all as normal.

[odigity]

I've been dying to play a Swashbuckler with BB/GFB since the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide was released, and I finally started a few weeks ago.

Currently at level 3, so I finally go to the Swashbuckler part, and it's great. Taking next level in Sorcerer (Draconic) to get 4 cantrips (BB, GFB, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion) and 2 spells (Absorb Elements, Shield) + natural armor of 13, which is better than studded leather.

If I get to level 20, I intend to end up at Rogue 12 / Sorcerer 8, which yields 6 feats, access to the Mirror Image, Misty Step, Haste, and Greater Invisibility spells, plus plenty of Slots & Sorcery Points for Quickened GFB and Twinned BB.

Should be fun at every level.

[Snowbluff]

I will say yes it's good, and yes it works. I have a lot of rogues in my group who use it.

Also the blade dancer dip is great for a rogue. Getting some more spells is nice. The bonus is great for a melee character.

[Klorox]

"Booming" is defined by Google as being loud, deep, and resonating. Booming as a quality of energy is not defined in 5E. Therefore each table must rule what works for them. I imagine that because the target is sheathed by this energy, it is could be possible that those vibrations are only heard by the target. The verbal component to the spell and the attack itself would still be heard by all as normal.

C’mon man, look up the spell chill touch.

It doesn’t deal cold damage; it deals necrotic, and it’s a ranged attack; not a touch. 🙃

[Klorox]

I will say yes it's good, and yes it works. I have a lot of rogues in my group who use it.

Also the blade dancer dip is great for a rogue. Getting some more spells is nice. The bonus is great for a melee character.

What’s a blade dancer?

[DivisibleByZero]

What’s a blade dancer?

He means Bladesinger. People have been doing that a lot lately.

edit:
And for those that keep doing it lately, the archetype isn't called that because they sing or because they dance. It's true that their fighting style is very akin to dancing, but they are traditionally named so because of the musical sound their blades would make while mixing sword and spell to fight.
Their blades would sing, hence the name.

[Klorox]

He means Bladesinger. People have been doing that a lot lately.

edit:
And for those that keep doing it lately, the archetype isn't called that because they sing or because they dance. It's true that their fighting style is very akin to dancing, but they are traditionally named so because of the musical sound their blades would make while mixing sword and spell to fight.
Their blades would sing, hence the name.

Dang, I’m not cool enough for these nicknames. 🙃