Are gender terms missing the point

[Greenflame133]

If you want to discuss it, it would be reasonable for others to expect you to ground yourself in the basic terminology first. Or, to admit what you don't know, and seek enlightenment at the appropriate time.

But more fundamentally, why exactly do you even want to discuss it?

It doesn't happen so much now, but there was a time in my life when it seemed I was forever filling out forms that asked me whether I was male or female. I nearly always declined to answer that question - not because I have any problem identifying as one of those things, but because I couldn't see what the other party could reasonably want with that information. If I'm applying for a bank account, or a credit card, or an electricity account, or a college course - what the heck does it matter to you what I am? Mind your own business and I'll mind mine. Thank you.

And you know what? When you put it like that, it's amazing how often the question turns out to be optional.

One instance were it is useful is when organizing accommodations on summer camp. You generally don't want anyone to have sex or even worst get pregnant as this is a lot of ligal trouble. What you do, you sort peoples but whats between their legs no nobody gets pregnant or come up with other simplification to deal with ton of peoples that need to be sorted to the rooms and groups for activity. Given that's not only factor but it's seems important, even over age. Given I can't recall the camp dealing with non-sis peoples.

Bank may use it for security but likely they won't metter, if it's optional It's probably used for statistics.

[2D8HP]

If you want to discuss it, it would be reasonable for others to expect you to ground yourself in the basic terminology first. Or, to admit what you don't know, and seek enlightenment at the appropriate time.

But more fundamentally, why exactly do you even want to discuss it?.....

One instance were it is useful is when organizing accommodations on summer camp....

??????



Um... @Greenflame133, please just thoroughly read the Wikipedia articles on

Gender

and

Gender identity

then quote relevant sentences from them either asking folks in the Forum to explain further, or citing how you agree or disagree.

I think that will go a long way towards you communicating your questions and ideas.

[Recherché]

One instance were it is useful is when organizing accommodations on summer camp. You generally don't want anyone to have sex or even worst get pregnant as this is a lot of ligal trouble. What you do, you sort peoples but whats between their legs no nobody gets pregnant or come up with other simplification to deal with ton of peoples that need to be sorted to the rooms and groups for activity. Given that's not only factor but it's seems important, even over age. Given I can't recall the camp dealing with non-sis peoples.

Uhm here's the thing, I'm a ciswoman but sex is less likely if you put me in a cabin with a big hairy guy than if you put me in a cabin with a cute girl. And pregnancy isn't likely either way. Your simplification here let's a lot of people through the cracks and not just on gender.

[Greenflame133]

Uhm here's the thing, I'm a ciswoman but sex is less likely if you put me in a cabin with a big hairy guy than if you put me in a cabin with a cute girl. And pregnancy isn't likely either way. Your simplification here let's a lot of people through the cracks and not just on gender.

yes is huge simplification but think how else you want to deal with group on any size anywhere from 20 to few hundred people weh nthere are also other factores

[halfeye]

yes is huge simplification but think how else you want to deal with group on any size anywhere from 20 to few hundred people weh nthere are also other factores

Pardon me for asking, but is English not your usual language? What you write reads as if you speak much more fluently than you write, do you read books in English at all?

[EternalMelon]

I see how you could interpret it as something like that altho I think it's more of aimed at people who are ignorant of nature of gender and make it up as if it was oc

I'm not sure how else to interpret it considering that is literally how its used. And how you continue to use it as a basis of your interpretation.

However, as I said thats besides the point. Although I will ask that you heed lvl 2 Clerics advice and read the linked wikipedia articles. They seem to be decent from my first glance (however, I admit to already having done my research prior to this conversation).

@Greenflame133, please just thoroughly read the Wikipedia articles on

Gender

and

Gender identity

[S@tanicoaldo]

@Greenflame133.

Why it's so hard for some people to grasp the fact that sometimes people are different from what they are used to, but they are still people and need to be respected.

Just because you don't get it doesn't make it invalid.

A lot of people don't get the apeal of RPGs but they are still great, so don't be the jerk that goes "Are RPG gamers missing the point? Life is about having fun, sex and party not boring nerdy games" have some emphaty.

[Red Fel]

yes is huge simplification but think how else you want to deal with group on any size anywhere from 20 to few hundred people weh nthere are also other factores

The same way you deal with any minority group.

With respect, dignity, understanding, and compassion.

[Greenflame133]

The same way you deal with any minority group.

With respect, dignity, understanding, and compassion.

was it about the accommodation on camp? so how it becomes minorty, if face my nature moust of them are part of majority

[Recherché]

Here's the thing, most people do not need wheelchairs and it would surely be simpler for our society to generalize and assume that no one needs a wheelchair ramp. But to do that would be to deny the humanity of everyone who does. It would isolate them and confine them to their houses preventing them from participating in society fully. So we as a society have decided that having wheelchair ramps and elevators are good and they should be as many places as possible. Same with braille. People who read braille are in a definite minority but we still put up signs for them in a lot of public buildings.

Am I less human and less deserving than someone who needs a wheelchair?

[Kyberwulf]

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[Red Fel]

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Are you really using the term "deficient" to describe people in wheelchairs and those with vision impairments?

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This actually highlights the crux of the problem. A lot of the people who argue against acknowledging or accommodating non-cisgendered¹ individuals base their arguments on a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means.

So let's be clear on at least one point: It's not about "your wants and desires." It's about who you are as a person. It's about one of the fundamental building blocks of identity.

Yes. I expect you to acknowledge me, as a person, whomever or whatever I happen to be. I don't expect you to like me, or to be civil to me, or even to tolerate me, but I expect you to acknowledge me as a person.

And no, you don't get a say in what kinds of people there are in the world. You don't. People exist. People with different genders, different ethnicities, different sexualities, different beliefs, and so forth. You don't get to say that they don't or shouldn't exist; you don't get a say in that.

Not you. Not anybody.

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An admirable try at diverting the conversation in a direction it definitely wasn't headed. But no. That's the wrong song.

¹ For the record, I appreciate the fact that there is a word for this concept, but for some reason the word "cisgender" bothers me. Just, as a word. I feel like we can do better.

[YossarianLives]

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As always, Red Fel is on point.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but by doing so you're denying the lived experiences of millions and erasing cultural traditions that go back centuries. I exist, and I don't need your permission to do so.

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Trans-exclusionary radical feminism is widely mocked for being reactionary, unscientific, and weirdly obsessed with certain aspects of the female anatomy. Trying to claim it's the only true form of feminism is just incorrect.

[Chen]

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But gender identity is almost by definition defined at an individual level. With no real restrictions on that definition. So with that as the basis its objective reality there are more than just the two standard ones. There's no hard definition of female or male GENDER (as opposed to sex). It's not simply a matter of belief but one of the way what is being discussed is defined. There is no hypocrisy there. You are objectively wrong.

Biological sex has much more rigid definitions for male and female (generally based on reproductive gamete size IIRC). Again by these definitions you could put forth arguments there are only 2 sexes though I think that still fails based on organisms that can produce both types of gametes, so presumably there's at least a third category there (maybe a 4th if an organism can't produce any gametes at all).

[S@tanicoaldo]

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People in wheelchairs and blind people are just as "normal" as you are.

What happened to this forum? It used to be such an open minded, progressive and chill place now it's kind of attracting some really unsavory people, I wonder why and when such shift happened…

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked.