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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They might try some publicity stunt shakeup like "killing him off" or turning him evil for a while (remember the Hail Hydra thing for Cap?) but it won't be too many fiscal cycles until the status quo is restored.
    The problem is that publicity stunts don't work, except to 'spike' sales for interest. The reason that Jane!Thor stuck around so long, was because her storyline was actually pretty good. It also vastly helped the transition, because Thor Odinson didn't disappear. Thor's storyline continued with Jane's. Jane didn't become 'Thor, God of Lightning' at the expense of Thor. Jane!Thor was well-received, because man!Thor was still running around the Galaxy taking names with his snazzy Axe, and occasionally making cameos in his own series. Your Favourite Character didn't go anywhere. It's fine.

    Unlike Cho. Who sucks.

    Death of Wolverine wasn't a publicity stunt...Well, it was...But it was also very good, the ramifications of which are still being explored.

    Print media as a whole has been struggling
    Luckily, online comic sales are through the roof.

    But yes. I know what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Contrast to Miles Morales, Riri, Amadeus Cho, or Kamala Khan. Basically know one knows who they are, and they're not even popular with people who actually read comics, much less society at large.
    ...Whoa.
    First up, Miles Morales is one of the single-most popular characters that Marvel has ever had. He was literally a breakout star of the Ultimate run. The problem with Miles, isn't Miles. But that Peter Parker was fixed to not be ****. So Miles will never really get the chance he deserves. But seriously. Everyone loves Miles. Everyone.
    People like Kamala Khan. I don't. But I get why people do. Same as Deadpool. I hate the comic. But I understand why it sells.

    Please don't put Miles and Kamala in the same category as Riri and Cho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Moreover, you also exagerrate the obscurity of the newer diverse characters. Cheesegear's own list had Jane Foster's Thor comic among the highest selling comics.
    Unlike movies, comics don't have a hype train. So Jane!Thor didn't have anything to do with blog buzz (you know as well as I do that blogs don't convert sales). If a comic sells, it's usually an indication of quality, which causes people to want to read it. That said, Jane!Thor was easily the best done transition out of the whole bunch.

    Unlike say...Infinity War. Even if you didn't like it, joke's on you, you still saw it. The hype train and pop-culture zeitgeist says that you have to see it. It's guaranteed money for Disney, whether you like it or not.

    Word of mouth actually matters in the comics industry. If something gets bad reviews from even just a handful of people, that's it. Game over.

    We're talking about having some of the new and diverse characters supplement or replace the current generation.
    That's currently the problem that both the comics industry, and movie industry blames the audience for.

    'New and Diverse', does not mean 'good', and replacing characters/storylines that people like, with characters/storylines people don't like and then getting bad reviews, isn't a fault of the publisher, but the audience. Which doesn't make any sense. But that's how they spin it.

    People don't like Cho because they're rascist, not because he sucks. People don't like Cho because they love Banner too much, not because Cho sucks.
    Ignore Rick Jones, a staple of the comics for years, who is a natural successor to any number of heroes... You have to like Cho, because we told you to.

    (I really hate Cho)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    The point is not to take the few oldest, most well known characters in pop culture and repeat the same stories about them over and over.
    ...That is literally how the movie industry has worked for years, and will continue to for a long, long time.

    People haven't seen even 1% of the great stuff they can mine out of those comics.
    QFT.
    However, I'll be genuinely surprised if the movie train keeps running after all the original Avengers leave.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-05-16 at 06:13 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...That is literally how the movie industry has worked for years, and will continue to for a long, long time.



    QFT.
    However, I'll be genuinely surprised if the movie train keeps running after all the original Avengers leave.
    I think you've forgotten that Marvel has the rights back to Fantastic Four and X-Men and all the peripheral characters from those franchises (Doom, Galactus, Silver Surfer, Shi'ar, Skrulls). The movie train could keep going for quite a while.

    Marvel seems to be changing the way the movie industry works, or at least introducing something new to it. We have nineteen movies without a repeat so far, and so many more potential characters and stories that there's no reason to ever repeat anything. I'm not necessarily saying that the current cinematic Avengers should or will be replaced with the "All New All Different" crew in movie form - at least not any time soon. But I'm not willing to assume that they couldn't pull it off (in terms of good story, characterization, setting) if they wanted to.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    We have nineteen movies without a repeat so far...
    Uh...I'm pretty sure most of them are repeats.

    Down your drink every time the villain uses the same or similar technology as the hero.
    *Dead*
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  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Miles and Kamala
    I have no beef with Miles, but I don't think he's as popular as you think he is. At least not since they merged him into the main universe. He was better as an Ultimate character.

    Kamala is fine I guess, but I just don't think "stretchy" is a power that will ever translate well to live action.

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I have no beef with Miles, but I don't think he's as popular as you think he is. At least not since they merged him into the main universe.
    Like I said, Peter was fixed to not be total garbage (Superior helped a lot). By merging Miles into the main universe, you have his title directly competing against Peter's, which was never going to work. Especially if you also fold in Spider-Gwen to the mix. Like I said, Miles will never get the chance he deserves.

    EDIT:
    Perhaps, more accurately, Miles had his shot. Nailed it. And then Marvel ran him into the ground by putting him in a place where he didn't belong.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-05-16 at 06:54 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Uh...I'm pretty sure most of them are repeats.

    Down your drink every time the villain uses the same or similar technology as the hero.
    *Dead*
    Iron Man 1, Hulk, Ant-Man, Black Panther. That's like four drinks. I'm pleasantly buzzed. And these are varied enough that having this similar element doesn't come close to making them repeat movies. Four out of nineteen isn't bad.

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    Iron Man 1, Hulk, Ant-Man, Black Panther. That's like four drinks. I'm pleasantly buzzed. And these are varied enough that having this similar element doesn't come close to making them repeat movies. Four out of nineteen isn't bad.

    CA:TFA - supersoldier serum. 5
    CS:WS another supersoldier: 6
    IM2: more armors with arc reactors: 7
    Dr. Strange: magic vs. magic (Dormamu wasn't really the one doing anything in the movie, so I'll argue it was whatsisface that was the main opponent): 8
    Avengers 2: create good robot to beat bad robot, from the same mold: 9
    Thor 3: god vs. god: 10

  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The problem is that publicity stunts don't work, except to 'spike' sales for interest.
    You're still missing my point - they don't have to "work." Comics are loss-leaders; I'm not sure how else to say it. They're free in that medium to try all kinds of crazy ideas, events, and storylines to see which ones (like Secret Invasion/War or Planet Hulk) get popular and could potentially be adapted, wholly or in part, to film. If you weren't so quick to dismiss Moviebob and reviewers like him with ad hominem and pay attention to the arguments themselves, you'd have a much better view of all the "inside baseball" that informs so many of the industry decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Unlike Cho. Who sucks.
    Even if your opinion about him is widely held, as a loss-leader, his comic doesn't have to sell. They will simply try for diverse iterations of heroes elsewhere. Though personally, I think the torch you're carrying for Rick Jones (aka Generic Lad) is clouding your perceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Luckily, online comic sales are through the roof.

    But yes. I know what you mean.
    And I'm happy for them - but as stated repeatedly, whether they are or not is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Comics are loss-leaders; I'm not sure how else to say it. They're free in that medium to try all kinds of crazy ideas, events, and storylines to see which ones (like Secret Invasion/War or Planet Hulk) get popular and could potentially be adapted, wholly or in part, to film. If you weren't so quick to dismiss Moviebob and reviewers like him with ad hominem and pay attention to the arguments themselves, you'd have a much better view of all the "inside baseball" that informs so many of the industry decisions.
    I know what the argument is. I have internet. What I didn't do, was get my information from MovieBob.

    You misunderstand me. I don't care what a loss-leader is.
    I'm an audience member. Not a share-holder.

    If Spider-Man sucks for five years, that actually affects me, even if it doesn't affect the business. Helping me understand how the business works, doesn't stop it being ****.

    Having Captain America drop a 'Hail Hydra' is one of the worst things I've ever read. "But it's comics, they can try that." ...What about me? As an audience member? Looks like I can't read Captain America until he stops sucking...But wait, what if he never stops sucking? What if his title just gets cancelled?
    (I mean, not Captain America. But several 'lesser' titles have been cancelled for much less, even when they sell well)

    "But it's a loss-leader, they're allowed to do that. As long as one of them's good, it's fine...Sucks if you're the audience for the thing that they made, suck, though."
    Of course they're allowed to do it. They're losing money anyway. They don't have to be good.

    Contempt for your audience. Nailed it.
    Don't give your audience what they want. Give them literally any ****, and then slap a popular title on it, and tell your audience that even if it isn't what they want, it's what they get, and they have to buy it. But you can't even vote with your wallet. Because buying it doesn't actually mean anything because it's at a loss to begin with. So, nothing you do, as an audience, matters. Good business. Terrible PR. But that's nothing new. For Marvel or DC.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-05-17 at 10:23 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    I don't remember where, but I've heard that comic books are actually doing pretty well when considering online sales. They are nowhere near as profitable as movies, of course, and they do still serve mostly as marketing tools for other products (movies, games, toys, etc), but apparently they do get to make a modest profit...

    It's been a while since I read that article and I can't recall the source, so I might be completely wrong, though. I'll try to (remember to) look it up when I get home.

    EDIT: I do think that the biggest reason for comics losing audience/profit is their slow adaptation to online markets, since games and movies are just as easily pirated as comics, but still manage to make huge amounts of money.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2018-05-17 at 11:43 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    I don't know much about Carol Danvers except what Rogue did to her. I just looked up her power suite. What does Nick Fury think she will do that he's paging her as he disintegrates? Going by superhuman strength/invulnerability/flight/energy absorption and discharge... is that enough to stop Thanos? What do you guys speculate for the next movie?

    The gauntlet is busted, so maybe Thanos can only use one gem at a time? It'd be weird if Carol is just going to go toe to toe in a brawl with Thanos, but maybe she's supposed to fight him while the rest the others repair/use the gems to get everyone back??
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I don't remember where, but I've heard that comic books are actually doing pretty well when considering online sales. They are nowhere near as profitable as movies, of course, and they do still serve mostly as marketing tools for other products (movies, games, toys, etc), but apparently they do get to make a modest profit...

    It's been a while since I read that article and I can't recall the source, so I might be completely wrong, though. I'll try to (remember to) look it up when I get home.

    EDIT: I do think that the biggest reason for comics losing audience/profit is their slow adaptation to online markets, since games and movies are just as easily pirated as comics, but still manage to make huge amounts of money.
    Of course they're doing fine. Companies don't last for a hundred years by losing money on their product. I don't know where this idea that comics don't make money even came from, or why people keep repeating it.

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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I don't know much about Carol Danvers except what Rogue did to her. I just looked up her power suite. What does Nick Fury think she will do that he's paging her as he disintegrates? Going by superhuman strength/invulnerability/flight/energy absorption and discharge... is that enough to stop Thanos? What do you guys speculate for the next movie?

    The gauntlet is busted, so maybe Thanos can only use one gem at a time? It'd be weird if Carol is just going to go toe to toe in a brawl with Thanos, but maybe she's supposed to fight him while the rest the others repair/use the gems to get everyone back??
    Fury doesn't know what's going on, IIRC. All he's doing is pushing the big red "EVERYTHING'S F***ED HELP PLS" button and hoping it's something Danvers can fight.

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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Oh right, that totally slipped my mind. Thanks!
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Of course they're doing fine. Companies don't last for a hundred years by losing money on their product. I don't know where this idea that comics don't make money even came from, or why people keep repeating it.
    DC Comics came within an inch of bankruptcy in the 80s - in fact, they were almost bought by Marvel Comics, but Marvel didn't think the characters were profitable and passed.

    Marvel Comics did declare bankruptcy in the 90s.

    Wildstorm Comics collapsed in the 90s.

    Image Comics almost collapsed, and recovered largely due to the runaway success of The Walking Dead.


    Every single comics company's history is replete with moments in which they were inches away from not existing any more, with the exception of the ones which don't exist any more. You don't see that happen with the large, stable companies. Marvel and DC only became stable when they started doing large-scale toy and movie operations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Of course they're doing fine. Companies don't last for a hundred years by losing money on their product. I don't know where this idea that comics don't make money even came from, or why people keep repeating it.
    Assuming you meant me, I didn't say "comics don't make money." I said it's irrelevant whether they do or not, as well as whether they dip or not, to their parent companies' bottom line. I even said they would obviously prefer them to make money than not, but (as with all loss-leaders) that doesn't mean losing money will matter. As for why it's repeated, the answer is simple arithmetic. When a single movie with Iron Man in it can dwarf the combined annual revenue of every current Iron Man comic that year several times over, do you honestly think they will care if a given storyline slumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You misunderstand me. I don't care what a loss-leader is.
    I'm an audience member. Not a share-holder.
    And I'm an audience member too. But I'm also an accountant, and at the end of the day, it's shareholders that drive the decision-making, so understanding what matters to them is the key to understanding business decisions.

    For the record, I hated "Hail Hydra." I thought it was the dumbest* stunt ever printed. They'd be bonkers to let that anywhere near the MCU. But just because I hated one idea they tried, doesn't mean they shouldn't keep trying ideas. Besides, adding more diversity to the main cast is hardly a publicity stunt anyway.

    *EDIT: Never mind, just remembered One More Day. (grabs shot glass and bleach)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-05-17 at 03:37 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    DC Comics came within an inch of bankruptcy in the 80s - in fact, they were almost bought by Marvel Comics, but Marvel didn't think the characters were profitable and passed.
    Wait... What???!!! They didn't think Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were profitable???!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Wait... What???!!! They didn't think Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were profitable???!!!
    Because at the time they weren't. Now I personally loved the secret empire story. It was the kind of tale that I'd been hoping marvel would tackle for years. Parts of it I didn't enjoy but over all it was a great experience.

    It's also the type of story that can only happen because the films make so much money that they can experiment with the comics without the fear of going under. It gives creators freedom to create that they normally wouldn't have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Of course they're doing fine. Companies don't last for a hundred years by losing money on their product. I don't know where this idea that comics don't make money even came from, or why people keep repeating it.
    No, and neither DC or Marvel lasted a hundred years.

    They have both been bought out by media conglomerates that wanted their fat juicy IP.

    Disney owns Marvel now because they were bankrupt again. (Having previously been functionally if not yet legally bankrupt just before the ToyBiz merger).

    Time Warner own DC.


    The persistent serial comics model is not where the money is, not at the cover prices and super low market penetration US comics sell at.

    Limited series that can be kept alive in trade paperback make money, ongoings service IP for licensing reasons.

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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Hell, we can see a microcosm of all this within the comic industry itself. When DC royally screwed up and lost the brand rights to "Captain Marvel" to... well, Marvel, they were forced to subsequently use "Shazam" for their vastly more popular character. Meanwhile, virtually nobody gave a dessicated crap about "Mar-Vell", but Marvel was savvy enough to know how valuable having a character whose individual brand so closely matching their own would prove to be, so they kept churning out mediocre comic after mediocre comic just to keep the rights. End result: they eventually struck gold with Carol Danvers (gold we will see very clearly in 2019) and we have Jude Law of all people signing up to be that nobody Mar-Vell.

    So even for the "comic audiences rule, shareholders drool" crowd, the concept of a loss-leader should and does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But just because I hated one idea they tried, doesn't mean they shouldn't keep trying ideas. Besides, adding more diversity to the main cast is hardly a publicity stunt anyway.
    No. I get it. For the record, I never said that diversity was the problem. Marvel and DC can do whatever they want to their characters. It just has to be good. I don't care that for a while, Grayson dropping the 'Nightwing' persona, and started working for the government. I love the D. As long as DC don't **** him up, it doesn't matter that Grayson wasn't Nightwing for a while. However, compare that to Red Hood & The Outlaws, and the almost irreparable damage that was done to Starfire. However, The D - whether as Nightwing, or Agent Grayson - is a character constantly moving between the A- and B- list, depending on who's writing. You can mess with D's storylines. But you do not fundamentally alter the personality and relationships of The D. That's what makes him, him.

    Starfire, though? You can mess with her, and not a great deal of people are going to care.

    Make Falcon or Bucky, Captain America. Readers of the Captain America title are very well acquainted with both Falcon and Bucky. Most readers of the title will be able to get behind 'Captain America' not specifically being Steve Rogers as long as the mantle is held by a character(s) they can respect.

    If Jason Todd becomes Batman, people will flip out. But, if you make D. Grayson the main character of the Batman title after Bruce Wayne dies, then it doesn't matter. Grayson becoming Batman, and then teaching his own Robin (Damien) was one of the best Batman & Robin runs ever written. Yes, it was different. But that doesn't always mean bad. As long as you give the fans what they want, and it's written by someone who actually knows what the **** they're doing (Grant Morrison). Bruce Wayne doesn't have to be Batman - to most people (Sam as Cap? Let's see where this goes...). But, that said, there are only a handful of characters that the audience will accept under the Cowl, and Jason Todd, is certainly not one of them.

    'Taking risks' is fine, on a character that the audience doesn't care about. If Marvel takes a risk on Venom, and it turns out that Venom becomes one of Marvel's best titles (which is exactly what happened recently). Great. Take a character no-one really cares about, and give them a push. Maybe it works? You'll sell a new title (and immediately thrust Venom into his own solo movie). Maybe it doesn't sell, but no-one really cared about the character in the first place, so who gives a **** if their title is bad?

    The problem is, the business sees all their characters as expendable. So it doesn't even matter - to them - if Steve Rogers, out of nowhere, says 'Hail Hydra'. Showing contempt for their audience. Literally nobody wants that. That's a problem. Then they turn around and say "Trust us." ...Response; No. There is no possible story you can spin One More Day as a good idea to the audience. You can spin One More Day to share-holders, 'cause resetting Peter Parker back to when he was most profitable sounds like a great idea on paper. Except then you get people burning issues of OMD in effigy because they've literally invested many, many years of their life reading Spider-Man, and being emotionally invested in his and Mary Jane's relationship "But trust us." Hard pass.

    (DC analogy; Grayson and Starfire's relationship being completely undone for literally no reason, and the reason that was given and the repurcussions, were so atrociously awful that it was actually offensive)

    Marvel's Fearless Defenders is a great example of the quintessential 'good failing' loss-leader. Great idea (lets take a risk with some C-list female heroes). Decidedly average execution. It doesn't matter that it wasn't that good, because the audience didn't care in the first place whether it succeeded or not. Venom, on the other hand, is what the share-holders want. Throw anything at the wall, and if anything at all sticks, by total accident then we win.

    Kind of like Blumhouse movies. Make a ****-ton of 'em. If one of them makes a profit with franchise potential, then that makes up for literally all of the other ones. But, what about the horror/gore movie audience members who had to sift through all of the piles of garbage before Blumhouse got to 'the good one'? Blumhouse is offensive, because they don't actually care about their movies. But it's good for the share-holders, so who cares about the audience?
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    I don't think A-Listers are sacrosanct by any means. Yes OMD and Hail Hydra were bad ideas, but that doesn't mean we need to handle Cap and Spidey with kid gloves forever afterward either. And I certainly don't think of it as "contempt"; you're taking it way too personally.

    But even if I did become that risk-averse - I would still be cheering for the diversity initiative at that point, and you should too. Because it lets them experiment even further with "Captain America" and "Spiderman" than ever, and if they do something you don't like, you can simply go "nope, that wasn't my Cap" and that will be that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And I certainly don't think of it as "contempt"
    Nobody wants you to do a thing.
    If you ask them, they'll even tell you not to do the thing.
    If you do the thing anyway, what do you call that? Utter disrespect?

    But even if I did become that risk-averse - I would still be cheering for the diversity initiative at that point, and you should too.
    Diversity isn't the problem. Bad storytelling, is.
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Experimentation seems to have some curious limitations though. Anyone heard about the absurd saga around a self published comic called "Jawbreakers"? Comic industry got all buthurt about a youtuber, that has less than 100k subs, not liking what they create, and took offense to him trying to do something that he DID.

    Bullied publishers to not carry the thing. It's crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Nobody wants you to do a thing.
    If you ask them, they'll even tell you not to do the thing.
    If you do the thing anyway, what do you call that? Utter disrespect?
    The problem is that if you only ask people what they want, all you will end up with is stuff they already know they like. But many (I would even say most) people don't know what they want until they actually get it. Kickstarter makes a lucrative living off of this phenomenon.

    In 2004, if you asked people what they wanted out of a social network, they would pretty much have just said "Myspace."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Diversity isn't the problem. Bad storytelling, is.
    Sturgeon's Law?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sturgeon's Law?
    Pretty much.
    Not too long ago, a pretty high-ranking Marvel official went off the rails blaming 'diversity' for slumping sales, because it was the audience's fault for being grubs. Doesn't social media force people to like diversity? How was it not guaranteed money? We're on this trend, damn it! How did it fail?

    Except the problem - which we know, now - was actually that Marvel put bad writers in charge of their new titles. Between a bad story, and a [minority] character, the studio chose to blame the [minority] and the audience. Do you remember the difference in narrative before and after Ghostbusters (2016)? And the amount of back-pedalling the cast and studio had to do, when they realised that yes, they had made an awful movie, and the movie being terrible didn't actually have anything to do with reactionary nerds? I 'member.

    If someone doesn't like Ant-Man, the problem is bad story-telling, unfunny jokes and samey-feeling plots.
    If someone doesn't Black Panther, racist. It's the only explanation, right?
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Sorry, I loved Ghostbusters 2016, so put me in the "blaming reactionary nerds" camp.

    And you (again) missed my point. Bad stories in comic books are inevitable whether they shoot for diversity or not. So they might as well do the decent thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    People don't dislike Marvel's diversity initiative characters because they're diverse or even because they're poorly written (although many are). They dislike them because they basically went "Oh, you like this character? Well they're gone now. Enjoy the new, superior, diverse version of the character!" Then, when people inevitably got upset that their favorite characters were gone Marvel decided "You don't like our new characters? You must all be racist! That's the only reason you could possibly not enjoy it when we replace your beloved character that you've followed all your life with a pale imitation!"

    It's stupid, and it's offensive. If they want more diverse characters then they need to make more diverse characters. You can't just replace Thor, Wolverine, Hulk, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ghost Rider, and Captain America with "diverse" counterparts all within a short span of time and expect people to enjoy it. I left Miles Morales off the list because he's the only case where the transition was well handled and made sense. If you truly want diversity then give us original diverse characters. The route Marvel went is lazy and stinks of a cheap cash grab.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2018-05-18 at 01:56 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #809
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sorry, I loved Ghostbusters 2016, so put me in the "blaming reactionary nerds" camp.
    1. People don't like diversity because people are antisocial jerks.
    2. People don't like new stuff, because they replaced - rather than added to - existing characters that people liked.
    3. People don't like bad stories written by bad writers.

    Companies and reactionaries only focus on the first, and smallest, group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It's stupid, and it's offensive. If they want more diverse characters then they need to make more diverse characters. You can't just replace Thor, Wolverine, Hulk, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ghost Rider, and Captain America with "diverse" counterparts all within a short span of time and expect people to enjoy it.
    Thor; Jane Foster was handled extremely well, and her title was one of the highest-selling titles of that year. The key difference between Thor and all the others, was that Thor Odinson was never replaced. Not only was Jane Foster worthy of wielding Mjolnir, but Thor Odinson's story was made richer by the fact that he wasn't worthy, and the story that could be told about Thor Odinson, kept going. That was, well, actual equality. Both Fem!Thor and Man!Thor were each running around the Galaxy with their own stories to tell. If you wanted to read one over the other, you had a choice (though, certain groups thought that there was a wrong choice based only on a single characteristic of the protagonists, regardless of the fact that people have been following the story of Thor Odinson for a long, long time). As Jane was always going to be temporary, it's hard to tell if this was a 'stunt' or not, since the story was...Actually good.

    Wolverine; 'Death of Wolverine' was a huge deal. By 2015, fans of Wolverine and X-Men were well familiar with the character of X-23. A breakout star since her inception from a TV show more than 10 years prior. If anyone's going to take the 'Wolverine' mantle, it had better be Laura, and certainly not Daken (piece of ****). However, if you explicitly liked the character Logan/James Howlett, then yes. You were SooL. At least for a while.

    Hulk; I dislike Cho intensely. However, I've also said in a throwaway sentence, that one of the main things I don't like about him, is that every single one of his story arcs so far, was already done by Bruce Banner. It feels extremely lazy in a "Haven't I already read this story before?", except instead of reading about Bruce Banner, I was reading about someone I also didn't like.

    Iron Man; Lazy and bad. And bad and lazy.

    Hawkeye; Kate Bishop gets to be Hawkeye, because Clint was character assassinated. Completely eradicate any redeeming qualities of Clint. Uhh...Okay? But why though? Clint's personality didn't feel natural. It felt like someone was gutting the character, specifically in order to make room for someone else. It was all so...Artificial. At the very least, Kate Bishop's title has already been cancelled.

    Ghost Rider; At this point, you can't replace Johnny Blaze. Any attempts to try are futile. The plot thread is even explicit, that Robbie Reyes is not the real Ghost Rider. This is obviously intentional, so that Johnny Blaze can come back at any time. This is one of those transitions where you can clearly smell the 'stunt' (pun unintended) all over it. You just know that Johnny Blaze is going to come right back the instant Reyes doesn't sell.

    Captain America; I assume you're talking about Sam Wilson. In which case, Steve wasn't replaced by an African-American. Steve was replaced by one of his best friends who has been working with him for years, and at the time, was one of the (few) natural successors to the Captain America mantle, AA or not. Like Wolverine (and Batman), the pool of 'acceptable' successors to the mantle is very small, and, for Captain America, one of the members of the pool, is AA. Unless, again, you are 100% invested in the idea that Steve Rogers must always be Captain America - not even Bucky is okay. In which case it doesn't even matter if Sam is AA, because you aren't going to accept anyone who isn't Steve.
    (But remember, I know you've followed Steve for years of your life. But Sam is AA, and that is the only possible reason you don't accept him as Captain America. Blogs told me so.)

    But, yes. You hit another nail on the head. Having all of those characters replaced in such a short period of time, was pretty jarring.
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  30. - Top - End - #810
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Like I said before, Jane Foster sold well for exactly one book. The second book only sold half as much, and every book afterwards dropped in numbers. She went from 140,000 copies sold to averaging 40,000 within the span of a few months. Big events like "The fall of Thor" or "Hail Hydra" always sell well, even if they're tripe.

    I do agree that Sam is a good choice to replace Steve. It's not quite like the others on the list. Some of the transitions are obviously handled better than others, it's just that when there's so many all within a short span of time, even the good ones end up looking bad.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2018-05-18 at 03:36 AM.

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