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  1. - Top - End - #1261
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    He recovered the lost page of the spellbook by rewinding it to before he even started his training - but he didn't dare to try to bring his dead mentor back: by then he wasn't willing to rewind stuff for anything short of world-saving.
    Just a reminder that the lost page of the spellbook was in a sanctum and thus may have different rules of reality than other places on Earth. This may be the case or this may not be the case, it depends entirely on the writers.

    What I am saying rules with rewinding time either in how far you go back, or the fact will rewinding time have effects on the rest of reality may be different when the place you are rewinding is a self contained marble that is an anchor in protecting earth from external threats from other dimensions / other planets.
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  2. - Top - End - #1262
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    That channeling MULTIPLE INFINITIES only makes it a bit worn off.
    That channeling MULTIPLE INFINITIES - the exact purpose it was designed for by the awesome space dwarves - only makes it a bit worn off.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    1-We know that the Axe head took a star to heat up, and seconds after it has solidified Groot adds the handle. And you know what, that means said Axe head is EXTREMELY HOT because the concentrated heat of a star simply does not dissipate after a few seconds (and Groot even grunts in pain).
    2-Then when Thor goes swinging it around with blows mighty enough to cleave everything on his path, it doesn't break. It's that simple. If the handle was of lesser quality, then it would've snapped just by being swung around by thor's super strength.
    1. So Groot is basically super powerful because he didn't die from touching the awesome space dwarves' super hot weapon? What are you getting at here??

    2. War axe doesn't break when used as an war axe. Big news. I used to cut wood for my grandma with her old axe. Didn't break either. Sometimes I even swung it down to the ground, just for the kicks. Sadly, no lightning powers emitted, because unfortunately axe not produced by space dwarves, or maybe I'm no god of thunder. Either way, axe not break from hitting earth.

    At which point in the movie should we have expected the axe to break, if it had been of lesser quality??

    When Thor hit the ground?

    When Thor threw the axe, and the TOP part of it - i.e. NOT the handle made of wood - hit Thanos in the chest?

    3. Axe is magic. I get it. It is super powerful because super awesome space dwarves are super awesome at making super awesome magic weapons for thunder gods.
    But I certainly miss the logical jump where this automatically implies that the handle - made of living wood - is automatically immune to being aged or turned back by time MAGIC. Time magic which comes from an INFINITY STONE, which the movie tells us are the most awesome stuff in the universe.

    Why should Thanos, with all SIX Infinity stones, which put a dent into the gauntlet which was designed to hold them and channel their power, not be able to age or de-age a wooden handle into dust? Even if it's magical, so what? Vision with the Infinity Stone was magical as well, and Thanos turned them back as well.

    The gauntlet with the time stone dusted half the universe but couldn't handle a wooden handle, because it was designed by space dwarves, and we have seen a thunder god hitting the ground and one enemy with it?

    I would have no problem if IW2 would TELL us that, but at this point in time, I just don't see any of that as a given.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    It's still only a few minutes, hours at best. Just because Dr.Strange can do that much doesn't mean he can turn time for days/years that would be needed to properly weaponize it.

    Even Thanos can only turn time back on Vision that was destroyed a few moments ago. If the Scarlet Witch had blown up her boyfriend at the start of the movie then Thanos may've just been denied the full set.

    Really you might ask yourself why genius Thanos doesn't start turning everything backwards himself after getting the Time stone instead of charging into Wakanda.
    When Strange first plays with the time stone, he plays with the apple. And he dials it back and forth at least many hours, possibly even days.

    A small object - many hours. With the very first try he ever got his hands on the stone.

    So, naturally, we expect he learns to harness this power more, because this is how stories go, right?

    And, sure enough, later, when he needs to, he handles a muuuuuuuuch bigger "object", an entire city block with houses and people and stuff, and dials those back a couple minutes.

    Even later, in infinity war, he looks at a bazillion different outcomes for the story. How long do you think that takes▀
    I'd argue this is more advanced than the play with the apple.

    So when the next movie picks up with Thanos fighting Thor, it might have been hours, or maybe days, after the wooden handle has been merged with the axe's head, and you would cry FOUL if Thanos dialed that thing back in time?

    Sorry, I really don't see it.


    And, luckily enough, someone else even remembered the Strange movie better than I did, and even found an in-story example - the spellbook - where Strange dialed something back much longer than either the apple, or Thor's axe would need to be.

    Or is it that the spellbook can be turned back because it was not written by space dwarves?
    The source material is very much similar to the source material of the axe's handle - made out of plant fibers.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The portal thingies can only be created in open air. You can't create them around around something already there.

    The mook only gets his arm cut off because he was stupid enough to put his arm in the portal out of his own will. So to cut Thanos arm you would need to be able to drag his arm inside the portal, but as seen even asleep Thanos is freakinghsly strong and they were barely able to budge him a few centimeters. Maybe they could've cut a bit of his fingers, but never fully chop off the gauntlet.
    Turns out, you can create portals under someone, making them fall down, as other people nicely pointed out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wookieetank View Post
    Minor nitpick here, in Thor:Ragnarok, Dr. Strange opens a portal under Loki while he's standing on solid ground and is also shown to be able to move portals about once opening them. So slicing Thanos arm off could've worked, but that's if Dr. Strange could come up with the idea. I believe he was unconscious and/or elsewhere at the time of Thanos mook losing its hand.

    Re: time stone
    Even with knowing how 14mil+ futures could turn out, it still doesn't change what you know and can come up with right now. If Dr. Strange doesn't know how to shoot lasers from his eyes (bit of an exaggeration) then none of his futures are going to show him doing so. If he never thinks to use his powers in a certain way, then he won't see a future where he does so because he'd never have thought of it right now. Just my take on the whole scene.
    Thanks for the help.
    And thanks for giving, finally, a good reason why Strange couldn't do it - I did have the feeling that I was missing something. Strange being elsewhere or unconscious is at least reasonable.

    Re: time stone
    I'd think that if you actually had the TIME to watch 14 million different timelines, you'd at some point consider a tactic that you did earlier in the movie (or was it his friend?), especially if your character stick is "genius with magical powers".

    That said, I find this a real clever trick the authors did there. By having Strange looking at all possible futures, we are being told that whatever we come with as possible solutions, it would not have worked, for some reason, in the long run.
    It is a cheat, but is a good one.

    Still, even if you use this technique as a writer, you have to make sure that basic bases are covered. If there are very basic, logical opportunities for the characters, you still need to explain why those exactly would not have worked. That way the story becomes much more believable.

    I think they overall did a reasonable job with that, with only a couple minor nitpicks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    There was probably something Strange could have done if he had access to all space and time to stop thanos's.

    But after the spaceship left Earth, strange didn't just Portal home. This, to me, implies mortal magic, (even that of Earth's Sorcerer Supreme) is merely planetary in scope. So while he might have been able to shenanigans the Soul stone, mind stone, or even the space stone, he couldn't get there to do so.
    Yeah, sure, monk magic ain't no Tesserakt. STILL, even planet-wide portal magic would have sufficed for cutting the gauntlet off, which was the basis for our discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Just a reminder that the lost page of the spellbook was in a sanctum and thus may have different rules of reality than other places on Earth. This may be the case or this may not be the case, it depends entirely on the writers.

    What I am saying rules with rewinding time either in how far you go back, or the fact will rewinding time have effects on the rest of reality may be different when the place you are rewinding is a self contained marble that is an anchor in protecting earth from external threats from other dimensions / other planets.
    Turns out, once you throw Magic into your story, you can do everything you want.
    Like, turning axes of lightning gods back in time so they crumble.
    Or, making axes of thunder gods invincible to time magic.
    Your choice, basically.

    It should be noted, though, that better stories usually come out when the writer focusses more on the limits of the magic, than on the possibilities it offers. Clear and consistent restrictions make for more plausible and more tense stories, at least in my opinion.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-06-21 at 03:11 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #1263
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    2. War axe doesn't break when used as an war axe. Big news. I used to cut wood for my grandma with her old axe. Didn't break either. Sometimes I even swung it down to the ground, just for the kicks. Sadly, no lightning powers emitted, because unfortunately axe not produced by space dwarves, or maybe I'm no god of thunder. Either way, axe not break from hitting earth.
    Im pretty certain that this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Unless you also have super powers that is?

    At which point in the movie should we have expected the axe to break, if it had been of lesser quality??

    When Thor hit the ground?

    When Thor threw the axe, and the TOP part of it - i.e. NOT the handle made of wood - hit Thanos in the chest?
    At any point where he does anything besides holding it really. With Thor's feats of strenght normal wood would snap at the forces involved in him throwing the axe-hammer. Or hitting anything with it.

    3. Axe is magic. I get it. It is super powerful because super awesome space dwarves are super awesome at making super awesome magic weapons for thunder gods.
    But I certainly miss the logical jump where this automatically implies that the handle - made of living wood - is automatically immune to being aged or turned back by time MAGIC. Time magic which comes from an INFINITY STONE, which the movie tells us are the most awesome stuff in the universe.
    Oh gods, HAVE this not BEEN explained A few times ALREADY?
    The argument is that its immune to age. Not to being aged. At least get that right instead of swinging at strawmen.

    Why should Thanos, with all SIX Infinity stones, which put a dent into the gauntlet which was designed to hold them and channel their power, not be able to age or de-age a wooden handle into dust? Even if it's magical, so what? Vision with the Infinity Stone was magical as well, and Thanos turned them back as well.

    The gauntlet with the time stone dusted half the universe but couldn't handle a wooden handle, because it was designed by space dwarves, and we have seen a thunder god hitting the ground and one enemy with it?

    I would have no problem if IW2 would TELL us that, but at this point in time, I just don't see any of that as a given.
    Also now your moving the goal. Now its Thanos using all infinity stones at once?
    You have also been given the answer to this a few times already.
    Because using the time stone to rewind an object very clearly takes concentration.
    Its to start with only you who insist that its possible to do so in combat.
    But we have never the stone used there. IW2 cant be expected to come up with answers to super powers you invent on your own.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  4. - Top - End - #1264
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    1. I'm not moving any goal. I said that Thanos might try to age or de-age Thor's axe in the next movie.
    This probably means he has access to all six stones, no?
    Because that's how Infinity War ended, no?

    2. Also, are you saying that anything Thor touches should break?
    Why should the handle break when the head of the axe crashes into Thanos?


    3. It doesn't break because MAGIC. And it could AGE because MAGIC. Or NOT AGE because MAGIC.
    There is nothing in the movies declaring that Thor's axe is immune to aging by an INFINITY STONE, so why should we assume it is immune?

    4. And nothing about strawmen, whatever that means.

    5. There is no indication that the wooden handle is immune to regular aging. Nothing at all unless you tell me a scene where potential aging of the axe is shown or told, and I forgot that scene - it might have been, I didn't remember all details of the fight on Titan either.
    Even if I buy your argument that the axe is exceptionally robust when wielded as a war axe - which makes sense as a weapon for a thunder god - there is no indication that it is immune to aging. Because we don't see it being exposed to age.

    5. It could even be a huge plot point in later movies that Thor's new axe is unfortunately NOT immune to regular aging, and now Thor has to repair it or get yet another one.

    How could that possibly be?
    Because originally, the awesome space dwarf weaponsmiths HAD NOT PLANNED TO USE GROOT'S BRANCH. They had planned to use a handle made of molten Neutronium or what have you. But the awesome space dwarf weapon smiths couldn't get their stuff together and misplaced the damn handle, so Groot IMPROVISED.

    So, while the head of the axe will stand the test of time and survive the heat death of the universe, unfortunately the handle will not, because it was made of a mortal part of a mortal being, with the magic of the awesome space dwarves enabling it to work for at least long enough for the next movie(s).

    6. You can explain EVERYTHING you want with MAGIC.
    So either you don't discuss anything it all, because it is not leading anywhere anyway, or you use what is established in the movie, and don't make up additional stuff to justify why stuff involving MAGIC can't possibly happen.

    Unless I'm missing something, the axe was not shown to be immune to aging, so it can either be immune or not be immune, as long as a future movie decides on that.
    7. And all of that discussion doesn't even explain why de-aging wouldn't have worked.

    8.Time Stone in combat: Strange in the end of his movie.
    Also, even if it requires concentration, in the Titan battle there were a couple people who could distract Thanis long enough for Strange to concentrate.
    In my hypothetical Thanos vs Thor's axe scenario, we have Thanos, who killed half the universe with a snap of his gauntlet fingers. I find it incredibly easy to believe that a snap of his fingers is enough to de-age Thor's axe.
    Wasn't shown to need much concentration for wiping half the universe, was he?


    9. Done. This has wasted enough of my time, and it doesn't even count as guilty time wasting pleasure anymore, since it doesn't lead anywhere. You want to believe what you want to believe, fine. I see no reason at all why my idea CAN'T HAVE WORKED, but I see no use trying to convince you. Next movie, Thanos will likely NOT use my idea, and you might consider it proof that it wouldn't have worked. Don't care. This discussion doesn't bring up interesting points, and it isn't funny, so I will stop arguing about Thor's axe and space dwarves.


    10. So, back to other stuff about infinity war, if people want.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-06-21 at 04:26 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1265
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Yeah, sure, monk magic ain't no Tesserakt. STILL, even planet-wide portal magic would have sufficed for cutting the gauntlet off, which was the basis for our discussion.
    And what would cutting Thanos's hand have bought them? That was probably a whole branch of possible futures that all ended in eventual failure. (probably some variant of Ironman flies off with the gauntlet, thanos activates his homeworld's planetary defenses, ironman dies, game over)

    The ONE successful path was keep thanos talking, stall, put thanos to sleep long enough to stall more but not long enough piss him off by making him get the gauntlet back, fight defensively to stall the fight more, until the last possible instant before Ironman is killed, then offer thanos what he wants (in a way that stalls the confrontation more). This not only keeps Ironman alive, it also stalls for Thor to get his ax and bifrost to earth, to keep thanos from killing Steve Rodgers before activating the gauntlet.

    The REST of the one successful path, we get to see next movie. But it's going to require the all the heros who didnt get ashed, which means Thanos cannot be allowed to kill anyone important BEFORE the Snap.
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2018-06-21 at 10:26 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #1266
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    Default Re: Avengers: Infinity War

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    1. I'm not moving any goal. I said that Thanos might try to age or de-age Thor's axe in the next movie.
    This probably means he has access to all six stones, no?
    Because that's how Infinity War ended, no?

    2. Also, are you saying that anything Thor touches should break?
    Why should the handle break when the head of the axe crashes into Thanos?
    Thor exerts a rather ridiculous amount of force, and he's capable of breaking rather a lot. Anything he can't break is pretty tough. Imagine being in the position the axe is in, being used by a ridiculously powerful god to smash opponents of a similar caliber. The forces exerted would be immense.

    3. It doesn't break because MAGIC. And it could AGE because MAGIC. Or NOT AGE because MAGIC.
    There is nothing in the movies declaring that Thor's axe is immune to aging by an INFINITY STONE, so why should we assume it is immune?
    Thor has explicitly stated that magic and technology are viewed identically in his world. This isn't some sort of spell, it's simply how asguardian physics, to include their weapons, work.

    Note that none of their weapons appear visibly marred by age. It appears that, so far as we can see, despite extreme age, the dwarves make stuff that just lasts. Because something metal, forged in the heart of a dying star(just as his hammer was).

    5. There is no indication that the wooden handle is immune to regular aging. Nothing at all unless you tell me a scene where potential aging of the axe is shown or told, and I forgot that scene - it might have been, I didn't remember all details of the fight on Titan either.
    Even if I buy your argument that the axe is exceptionally robust when wielded as a war axe - which makes sense as a weapon for a thunder god - there is no indication that it is immune to aging. Because we don't see it being exposed to age.
    It's part of the axe now. The axe that can teleport between worlds, heal the burned demigod, and kill thanos. It has additional properties compared to when it was merely groot's arm, and we can see that.

    5. It could even be a huge plot point in later movies that Thor's new axe is unfortunately NOT immune to regular aging, and now Thor has to repair it or get yet another one.
    That is unlikely. A quest to forge an epic weapon is cool. Two, back to back, because the first one broke like confetti, is not.

    Additionally, it is heavily foreshadowed that this particular axe is a necessary part of Strange's single successful path.

    6. You can explain EVERYTHING you want with MAGIC.
    So either you don't discuss anything it all, because it is not leading anywhere anyway, or you use what is established in the movie, and don't make up additional stuff to justify why stuff involving MAGIC can't possibly happen.
    Magic A is Magic A. Consistency matters in cinema, no matter what words you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    And what would cutting Thanos's hand have bought them? That was probably a whole branch of possible futures that all ended in eventual failure. (probably some variant of Ironman flies off with the gauntlet, thanos activates his homeworld's planetary defenses, ironman dies, game over)
    Judging by the results of what Strange actually fought for, he was not aiming to maim Thanos. He doesn't seriously try to do that by any means. He aims to stall Thanos. Turning back time would be counter-productive in this, so he doesn't use the time stone, instead hiding it to bargain and further stall. Look at how he fights. Mirrors thrown that Thanos has to shatter, cool. That's not a lethal threat, that's a stalling tactic. A bunch of mirrors preventing the gauntlet from closing? Again, stalling tactic.

    He's keeping the necessary people alive, and buying time. The former is obvious. Stark is somehow important to Thanos's defeat, and they are set up as having a connection. So, he needs to live. Nebula also needs to live, because otherwise Tony is stuck on Titan with no way home. Neither of those things explain why he's stalling, however, and stalling Thanos a few seconds more or less would make pretty much no difference to the earth fight otherwise. That's already in motion without Thanos's arrival(since he portals there directly from Titan). So, it's also not that.

    The big arrival mid-fight, shortly before Thanos, that matters to the outcome is...Thor with the axe. Thus, it absolutely has to be important. Cutting off a hand, win or lose, would likely not have accomplished the above objectives. Thanos, down a hand, might not be willing to spare Stark, for instance.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2018-06-21 at 12:38 PM.
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