Avengers: Infinity War

[Dragonus45]

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.

[UrielAwakened]

Yeah some people just don't want to see how this is different. Which is fine. They miss out on enjoying it.

[Mato]

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.

I always find myself a little sad that there are people who throw around the "groundbreaking" buzzword at every single thing that has come out. Like fictionalized history or dramatizing WWII, or rereleasing the 1989 Batman by today's standards, and a musical edition of a your year old movie.

Again, doesn't make it terrible. The movie was great, but I'm not going to call part one of a third movie that it's self is simply an adoption of a previous story unique.

[Ramza00]

I always find myself a little sad that there are people who throw around the "groundbreaking" buzzword at every single thing that has come out. Like fictionalized history or dramatizing WWII, or rereleasing the 1989 Batman by today's standards, and a musical edition of a your year old movie.

So most people are not really thinking that hard and deep philosophy when they speak but let me make the argument that even if they do not understand its deep principles they are seeing the deep features when it occurs. Most people use the word "groundbreaking" to signify this is an inflection point, a tipping point that will trigger something new aka a 2nd derivative thingy in calculus. Aka a 3rd derivative, which is a also known as in physics such as jerk, lurch, jolt in physics is something that causes the inflection point to change, aka the 3rd derivative triggers a change in the 2nd derivative.

Remember

Position over Time is location
Speed / Velocity is 1st derivative of position over time
Acceleration is 2nd derivative of position over time
Jerk / Lurch / Jolt is 3rd derivative of position over time.

Now I been using all these fancy math and physic terms for calculus is mathematics which was designed to study change and change over time for calculus is literally the mathematical study of continuous change. So in other words calculus developed all this fancy language, all these fancy mathematical terms in order to explain change and to try to predict change and to explain change that already happened.





And most people do have basic calculus principles in their ability to predict change is going to happen. They may not have studied calculus in college or late high school, and even if they did many people forget the fancy math language (I completely forgot most of the mathematical notation over 10 years ago even though I got to Calc 2). But that is the beauty of the human brain many of the mathematical principles we have an intuitive sense of with biology, we understand in our heads location (position in reference to time), we understand speed, we understand acceleration, and we also understand when sudden things happen that are unexpected that cause changes in acceleration, speed, and position things like speed bumps and these speed bumps may change the direction of what is new and where the general trend, the fad, is going.





So yes this movie is groundbreaking even if you want to argue it is not really a jerk, but instead barely a change in the general direction, speed, or acceleration of superhero movies. It is going to be a jerk for most likely it is going to break a billion dollars worldwide for sales.

Note it is not just math and physics that have a language to describe the process of continuous change. Many philosophies and theologies do so as well. For example "Process Philosophy" is a comparative philosophy / religious term to say your metaphysics is based around continuous change and there is no permanent essences for all things die and when I say all things die I mean in reality all things change and become another (equivalent exchange and all that jazz) and that there is no permanent forever essence that guides / returns things to the mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophy

Well these thoughts are so common in human nature irrespective of culture, and even if these cultures did not talk to each other that this term "Process Philosophy" was created to signify these worldviews and to help categorize worldviews from different cultures. That is because other philosophies exist cross culture and argue different world views, for example Substance Theory argue there is a permanent essence that is distinct from its properties, something that makes X into X. For example Substance Theory is very much rebuked by David Hume (Scottish Skepticist of the mid 1700s, Empiricist, Philosopher, Historian, Economist, and a dozen other things I am skipping over), Hume argues that much of the things we argue has permanent essence we just trust it has a permanent essence, that is because humans are so reliant on senses and our emotions/ our sentiments/ our passions that we create order in our head to try to organize the senses and our emotions. Often these orders we create are not really descriptive of actual reality but instead self reinforcing of what we think reality is and what it should be. David Hume then helped people refine the process of thought we later used in much of philosophy and also the scientific method for humans can't separate our senses and passions from ourselves but if we inject a little doubt that constantly challenges our assumptions to try to be better we are actually better at organizing our senses and passions even if we can't have perfect certainty.

-----



So Mato I kind of rambled in my defense of the term of "groundbreaking" but lets be honest this moment is groundbreaking. We just do not know the direction, the intensity, and the significance of how groundbreaking this moment is.

That is because there are also lots of other groundbreaking moments all the time...and most of these other moments we do not notice when they occur, prior to them occurring, and often even after the effect. It is just too much data for the human brain to handle. Yet the human brain is very good at noticing that X is different and it seems significant even if we can't plot the direction, intensity, and the final resting point of the significance.

Humans beings are so good at seeing and understanding some aspects of change and so bad at other aspects of change. We are after-all only human

[Anonymouswizard]

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.

[tiornys]

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking, not because it did anything that hadn't already been seen within its genre but because it did those things while dramatically expanding the audience of that genre.

The MCU has done the same thing for comics while simultaneously translating them into a different form of media. And Infinity Wars just proved that they could pull off the massive crossover events within the movie format.

edit: to elaborate on this, yes it's true that "all" Marvel has done here is successfully translate some long-standing comic book stuff to the big screen. The key word here is "successful" because there have been a lot of failed attempts over the years.

[Razade]

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales. It already broke sales records for pre-sales. This is a big thing in movies and it's a big thing for the general populous who don't read comic books.

[Ramza00]

A metaphor,

Point: I complain about music for there is nothing new about music it is not like the music of my fathers or grandfathers where everything seemed new.

Counterpoint: Well that is not that true. Music is mostly the same as its older versions, it is just the combination of multiple genres and new technology medium that makes music more common in our daily lives.

For example this video (you just need to watch the first five minutes) which traces the history of the "descending bass" and how a collection of types of notes often triggers the feelings of sadness and melancholy and its been that way for hundrend of years.



Even in songs like Hit the Road Jack (1960 Percy Mayfield, 1961 Ray Charles) which we think are upbeat it also includes the descending bass to create a more complicated emotion where we feel both joy and sadness at the same time and it is the complexity of the multiple parts, being rammed together in a new and unique combination that triggers THE FEELS.

----

That is the power of the aural medium with sound, where we can feel multiple emotions at the same time, and when you combine it with visual mediums, and also story telling mediums (not just one vision but multiple visions told together as a story) we are able to trigger complexities that are greater than the sum of its parts.

(Starting now I will set up a strawman that I wish someone will punch back with)

So nothing is new under the sun with Avengers Infinity War, and that's the point. Something can be new and groundbreaking even if its not really new.

Rhetorical question for anyone to answer: Would you be happier if we use fancier words such as nouveau or neo to describe Infinity War? Perhaps we should use the word renaissance, revival, or resurgence? What fancy word do we have to use again if we can't use the word new?

Another Rhetorical Question: People who are complaining nothing is new in infinity war? What is the definition of infinity again?

[Anonymouswizard]

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales. It already broke sales records for pre-sales. This is a big thing in movies and it's a big thing for the general populous who don't read comic books.

The thing is, this rally has nothing to do with the MCU being consistently high quality (even the films I dislike I can happily admit are competently written and well executed) and being what's 'in' right now.

But my point was that I've seen thus formula of interlocking stories in books. I've seen it in TV shows (although it's rare and almost never gets this complex). I've seen it in music. If I tried hard enough I could probably find examples in theatre.

Why does the MCU and by extension Infinity War have to be new and groundbreaking? Why can't it just be really good, or great fun? What's wrong with just being good? Why must we claim that everything is groundbreaking when it's not?

[BeerMug Paladin]

So Mato I kind of rambled in my defense of the term of "groundbreaking" but lets be honest this moment is groundbreaking. We just do not know the direction, the intensity, and the significance of how groundbreaking this moment is.

I don't watch these movies, but I do tend to watch these threads for puzzling moments of rambling like this. Highly entertaining, if nothing else. Doesn't the quoted part contradict itself?

Anyway, it's great that most people seem to enjoy the movie. It'll be a sad day for nerditude if and when the bubble bursts.

[GloatingSwine]

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking, not because it did anything that hadn't already been seen within its genre but because it did those things while dramatically expanding the audience of that genre.

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking because it leveraged the CD format to dramatically alter the way the narrative of its genre was presented.

It was the move away from sprite and tile, and the wider range of interactions with the background including the use of animated background and blending polygon characters over video backgrounds, that was groundbreaking.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

It is the first successful attempt to bring this sort of thing to cinema. And frankly I don't think it could have been done in cinema before now. The other media that have done this sort of thing are much more likely to be serialised, which means regular publication and visibility and much less of a "miss it and you've missed it until it shows up somewhere else much later" nature than cinema. Miss an episode of a TV show and there'll be another one next week, books stay in circulation for ages, etc.

The range and immediacy of stored information via the internet is what has made this possible in cinema now. Because it doesn't matter if you missed even most of the individual movies you can get caught up on the wiki.

[Razade]

Why does the MCU and by extension Infinity War have to be new and groundbreaking? Why can't it just be really good, or great fun? What's wrong with just being good? Why must we claim that everything is groundbreaking when it's not?

Because it's never been done in movies to this scale and to this degree of success. It's groundbreaking because the other mediums allow for this all the time. No one said it was unique. No one said it was the first ime this has happened ever, period, full stop. They've said it's the biggest, most complex series of films and actors and etc etc. For. Film.

That's why I said I didn't give a hoot where else you'd seen it. Because who cares where else. No one is talking about where else. They're talking specifically of film. So who cares if books have had mega cross over? Who cares if comics have? Who cares? Those are all pointless in this discussion. It's like someone saying they made the biggest, most complex cake and then you talking about eggs Benedict and how that's difficult to make so why should we care about your damn confectionary?

[Aedilred]

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking because it leveraged the CD format to dramatically alter the way the narrative of its genre was presented.

It was the move away from sprite and tile, and the wider range of interactions with the background including the use of animated background and blending polygon characters over video backgrounds, that was groundbreaking.

I feel like Myst beat it to the punch by a few years, but then to be fair I haven't played FFVI.

It's easy to suppose that the Marvel movie juggernaut is running out of steam and there have been huge numbers of articles written prophesying that Infinity War must fail because it's doomed by the scale of its ambition. But all those articles were written before release and so have no real value. As to the idea that the MCU is dying, there's no evidence for that. Black Panther smashed records. Infinity War is projected to beat Black Panther's opening weekend.

I don't think it can be sustained forever and I have started to find the films a little formulaic, but there's a lot of life left in them. Much may depend on the ability of the next generation of actors and characters to carry it forward. RDJ, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth and Mark Ruffalo can't last forever. When they call it a day, one way or another, will people still be drawn to watch the movies? The success of Black Panther, Homecoming and the unfailing affability of Paul Rudd say yes, but there's still time.

Anyway, on the film itself.

Spoiler

Show

It did feel a little cluttered. It did a good job of incorporating its heroes without feeling merely like a parade of cameos but, like Thor: Ragnarok, it had to cram a lot into its running time and as a result a couple of things did seem a little rushed.

In particular, and for just about the first time in the MCU, the film at times sacrificed character relationship for plot advancement. The Stark-Banner reunion deserved more. Ditto, perhaps, the renegades' return to Avengers HQ.

Incapacitating Vision so early was clearly to help with the plot acceleration. As (more or less) the most powerful of the terrestrial Avengers, we needed to settle early on why he wasn't contributing more to the defensive effort. But this move was also a bit obvious, and even though his death was anticipated, it would have been nice to see him in full flight before the end.

And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

With a bit more time, and a bit more dwelling on each of these occasions, or a little more opportunity to contemplate, this could have worked better. But the film's already two and a half hours and made the justifiable decision not to do so. In the trade-off between a much longer film (or multiple films) versus a shallower one, they opted for the latter and, after The Hobbit I can't blame them for it. But it does make me wonder about the film's longevity on rewatch.

The ending, however harrowing, did rather suggest that the gauntlet-induced deaths will be undone, not least because we already know some of those characters are to feature in further Marvel movies, so it didn't have quite the impact it might have done. Maybe another "real" death would have really set the tone. Or maybe the three/four (if you count Heimdall) is enough.

One frivolous question that occurred to me even at the time and has not gone away: Why did Heimdall only use the Bifrost to evacuate Hulk and not anyone else (Thor?) I suppose we could surmise that some of the other Asgardians got away via Bifrost before Thanos took the ship? Thor said Thanos killed "half of them" but when the Guardians arrived it seemed like they were all dead.

[Bartmanhomer]

I saw the movie this morning and all I can say is that the movie was good but the ending was horrible. Enough said.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler

Show

And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

Spoiler

Show

The film regularly shows people not making the same sacrifice that Thanos does make to get the Soul stone. I am pretty sure that will be significant in part 2, especially as Gamora appears to be in the Soul World instead of actual dead.

[Rakaydos]

So about the stinger...

Spoiler

Show

Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

[Mato]

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales.

So did Batman v Superman. And to belittle it even further, as the population grows sending more people to an ever increasing ticket price the trend is just going to keep going irregardless of film quality.

Anyway, on the film itself.

Spoiler

Show

And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

One frivolous question that occurred to me even at the time and has not gone away: Why did Heimdall only use the Bifrost to evacuate Hulk and not anyone else (Thor?) I suppose we could surmise that some of the other Asgardians got away via Bifrost before Thanos took the ship? Thor said Thanos killed "half of them" but when the Guardians arrived it seemed like they were all dead.

I feel like those two points need to be repeated.

Spoiler

Show

You are spot on with how Thanos acquiring the stones was pretty repetitive, several characters played out-of-role of sorts and there are several plot holes in the film that you can pick up on the first viewing. And you know the second time you watch the film things in that area only get worse.

[Bartmanhomer]

So about the stinger...

Spoiler

Show

Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

That what I want to know that myself. I didn't recognize the symbol.

[Aedilred]

So about the stinger...

Spoiler

Show

Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

Spoiler

Show

Yes.

Or, rather, it's the symbol apparently used by Captain Marvel, and since we know that film is coming and she's the sort of person Fury would call under the circumstances, I can't imagine who else it would be.

Of course this presupposes that she wasn't one of those disintegrated by Thanos. Which would be an amusing anticlimax.

[Jeivar]

Overall, I absolutely loved this movie. Fantastic action, good performances, good use of each character...

Spoiler: Spoiler for the movie

Show

... but I tend to roll my eyes at the standard Heroic Choice: Ie, a hero letting a villain gain the means to end a vast number of lives to save just one. The math of that just doesn't add up. You can't hand a nuke over to a psychopath and just hope you'll somehow survive long enough to stop him. Yet the heroes make this choice multiple times here.

Also, I find I just generally don't like Star Lord. He's an absolute man-child. Peter Parker is an an actual teenager, yet shows way more responsibility than he does.

As for Doctor Strange... I'd say that one victory he foresaw definitely included letting Thanos have a win for now. As for his plan, I want to theorise:

What was the result of Thanos getting the Time Stone? He got the final stone, gained ultimate power, and wiped out half of all life. This may be a stretch here, but I'm going to guess that Death, as in the entity Death, exists in the cinematic universe. And Thanos' act of unprecedented cosmic genocide has either strengthened her/it, or weakened the barrier to her/it in some way. So Strange, being the Sorcerer Supreme, means to either appeal to Death or confront it somehow.

Thoughts?

[Aedilred]

Overall, I absolutely loved this movie. Fantastic action, good performances, good use of each character...

Spoiler: Spoiler for the movie

Show

Also, I find I just generally don't like Star Lord. He's an absolute man-child. Peter Parker is an an actual teenager, yet shows way more responsibility than he does.

Spoiler

Show

Well, with great power comes great responsibility, and he has no power...

I intended that as a joke but I realise it's true. At this point he really is just a bog-standard human with some (by Earth standards) fancy gear. He doesn't have an Infinity Stone. He's no longer a Celestial. He hasn't been augmented in any way with cybernetics or hormones. He doesn't have the genius-level intellect of Tony Stark or the exhaustive training of Black Widow. Even Hawkeye probably has more natural ability. He doesn't really have any remaining allies like Yondu or the Nova Corps to call on*. He can't even control his own crew. Rocket and Groot wander off at the earliest opportunity.

He may well be the weakest member of the "team" apart from - possibly - Falcon and Okoye, and even that's pretty debatable.

So most likely he feels rather insecure when he's confronted with new people who are actually superhuman. With his names and his accomplishments and despite his protest to Ego that there's nothing wrong with being like everyone else, he thought of himself as a player, and now he's starting to realise he's not playing in anything like the division he thought he was.

But still, yes. I started to like him in Guardians 2, but here he regressed rather. While I can forgive his not shooting Gamora as she asked (or, rather, delaying doing so until Thanos could anticpate it and stop him) and, for that matter, splitting up the team to suicidally attack Thanos on Knowhere in the first place rather than going to gear up with Thor, and thus indirectly giving Thanos access to the Soul Stone, his actions on Titan, single-handedly ruining the best chance they would have to stop him for no good reason at all was aggravating. I mean, what was punching him in the face even supposed to accomplish? He could at least have shot him.

*Which reminds me: where's Kraglin?

[GloatingSwine]

Overall, I absolutely loved this movie. Fantastic action, good performances, good use of each character...

Spoiler: Spoiler for the movie

Show

... but I tend to roll my eyes at the standard Heroic Choice: Ie, a hero letting a villain gain the means to end a vast number of lives to save just one. The math of that just doesn't add up. You can't hand a nuke over to a psychopath and just hope you'll somehow survive long enough to stop him. Yet the heroes make this choice multiple times here.

Also, I find I just generally don't like Star Lord. He's an absolute man-child. Peter Parker is an an actual teenager, yet shows way more responsibility than he does.

As for Doctor Strange... I'd say that one victory he foresaw definitely included letting Thanos have a win for now. As for his plan, I want to theorise:

What was the result of Thanos getting the Time Stone? He got the final stone, gained ultimate power, and wiped out half of all life. This may be a stretch here, but I'm going to guess that Death, as in the entity Death, exists in the cinematic universe. And Thanos' act of unprecedented cosmic genocide has either strengthened her/it, or weakened the barrier to her/it in some way. So Strange, being the Sorcerer Supreme, means to either appeal to Death or confront it somehow.

Thoughts?

Spoiler

Show

I'm pretty certain it's all going to revolve around the Soul stone. Gamora's soul is clearly inside it after her being sacrificed to get it, so she's likely to take a role somewhat similar to what Warlock does in the Infinity Gauntlet story, being the judge of Thanos through it.

My guess is that something similar to the back half of Infinity Gauntlet is yet to happen, with Captain Marvel taking the Surfer's role and Gamora taking Warlock's, and Thanos and Nebula playing themselves.

[Mato]

Spoiler: Spoiler for the movie

Show

As for his plan, I want to theorise:

Spoiler

Show

Adam Warlock (GotA2 post-credits) wakes up and him and Carol Danvers flirt for a bit while Tony gets jealous that he isn't the center character. Everything gets better the end.

Then homecoming II jokes about Sony botching Venom and in guardians 3 Peter is stranded and alone and sad that his clone-brother isn't with him, so he assembles a crew and saves a planet with the power of interpretive dance which is the most ground breaking thing ever seen in film. Fury shows up in both film's post credits trying to sell the idea of the secret wars / annihilation as the X-Men finally join the MCU. I think phase five was the best part through, Thor really taught Superman how to be a great hero and the DCU has been better ever since then.

[thorgrim29]

I liked it... as far as Phase 3 Marvel movies go I would rank it somewhere near Black Panther (which I liked but takes itself way too seriously for me to get over how much of it doesn't make sense) and Guardians 2, above Civil War (somehow messier than this one even with about half the cast) and Dr Strange (meh...), and a bit below Thor 3 (which pushed just about all of my buttons). I have yet to see Spiderman Homecoming but I hear good things.

Spoiler

Show

To everyone pissed at Strange... It's pretty obvious that giving the stone to Thanos was somehow part of the 1 shot in several millions they have of winning. I assume just using his future sight to tell Peter about Gamora ahead of time is against the rules of causality (or drama) or something. The big question is how much of the deaths will be fixed? It's pretty obvious the Guardians and Black Panther aren't permadead, so most if not all of the people killed at the end will be coming back somehow. Loki, Vision, and Gamora though... I also doubt they will actually have killed off all of the Asgardians except Thor and the suspiciously absent Valkyrie, but Heimdal is probably gone, I think Idris Elba has better things to do than wave a sword around wearing colored contacts and a wig since he's pretty much the highest-profile actor in a bit role other than Gwyneth Paltrow, but if all she has to do is take half a day off from selling magic crystals to film a scene every few years I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

I liked what they did with Banner, Hulk is scared to come out (presumably) because Thanos took enough boxing lessons to thoroughly kick his ass so now Bruce get to be an actual Avenger for once. The technobabble with Shuri was a bit out of control but it was also thankfully short.

I don't have a lot of theories about the next movie yet except that I think baby Gamora at the end might be Death and I wouldn't be surprised if Tony and maybe Cap died.

[Zevox]

Just saw it. Well, that was pretty much the purest distillation of a giant comic book crossover event into movie form we're ever going to see, wasn't it? With all the positives and negatives that tends to entail.

Spoiler

Show

I can't help but wonder how many people went into it not knowing this was a 2-parter, and were very surprised by the ending. Yeah, I know they announced it literally years ago, but plenty of the general public probably doesn't follow news about these movies that far in advance, or would have forgotten by now even if they did.

Overall, I'd say I was pretty happy with it. Pacing felt good, really liked the action, a lot of the cast got some cool moments and very few felt like they got nothing, which is impressive considering the ridiculous number of characters involved. I will say, I'm a little disappointed by who they did and didn't have vanish at the end there. Basically all of the B-listers and below are gone, but all of the biggest names - Steve, Tony, Thor, Bruce - are still around to be the center of things. Would have been more fun to see some of the traditionally-lesser characters have to step up in part 2, and I think all the "deaths" would have more impact if at least one of those big four had been among them, preferably Steve or Tony.

I will also say, there's something vaguely unsatisfying about Doctor Strange's part in this. I mean, at first it bothered me that he actually handed over the Time Stone despite his earlier warnings to Tony that he'd choose protecting it over protecting his or Peter's lives without hesitation, but after a moment to think about it it occurred to me that they're probably going for "he knows the one future in which they beat Thanos involves him getting all of the stones." Nonetheless, it feels less than satisfying that he didn't even try to make Thanos work for it, and especially that he never actually used the Time Stone against him. That's kind of the one major disappointment for me: the heroes had two of the Infinity Stones, one of which was in the hands of the most powerful magic-user on earth, and they never even tried to use them. Hell, Strange used the Time Stone to deal with Dormammu, so we know he's willing to use it when he has to, no excuses there.

Otherwise though, yeah, fun movie, and I look forward to part 2. And, after that post-credits teaser, Captain Marvel, since apparently she's set to be involved in part 2.

(Speaking of, I wonder whether the next few Marvel movies will technically take place after Thanos gets the full six stones but before his inevitable defeat? Or are they chronologically going to be before this film?)

Also worth saying on a minor note, I'm glad I played Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite before this came out. Gave me a much better ability to follow what each of the Stones was and could do (as well as their color-coding so I could follow which Thanos was using), and I wouldn't have recognized that symbol from the post-credits scene without it.

[Seppl]

Spoiler

Show

What was the result of Thanos getting the Time Stone? He got the final stone, gained ultimate power, and wiped out half of all life. This may be a stretch here, but I'm going to guess that Death, as in the entity Death, exists in the cinematic universe. And Thanos' act of unprecedented cosmic genocide has either strengthened her/it, or weakened the barrier to her/it in some way. So Strange, being the Sorcerer Supreme, means to either appeal to Death or confront it somehow.

Thoughts?

Spoiler

Show

A previously unheard of entity that is just more powerful than the villain and resolves the plot? That is literally Deus ex Machina. I doubt they would go for that. Instead, the resolution is most likely based on the as of yet unresolved plot threads from the first movie. Which are not many: Dr Strange's vision? Could be anything, but likely involved Tony Stark in a critical position. Captain Marvel? Again, could be anything, but she is not gonna defeat an omnipotent being by punching him very hard. Thanos' regrets? That is the main unresolved thread. The other two I mentioned will most likely play into that. How to deal with an omnipotent being? Make them want to give up said power! Classic story. Captain Marvel and Tony Stark will probably be involved in some mission, searching people and/or things from Thanos' past that he has regrets about. Tony is already on Thanos' homeworld. Captain Marvel we will learn more about in her upcoming movie.

There is also the GotG2 post credits reveal of Adam Warlock which has not yet played any roll in the MCU, yet. The producers said that he will first show up in GotG3. But they also said that Captain Marvel would not appear in Avengers 4, which was obviously a ruse.

Spoiler

Show

I can't help but wonder how many people went into it not knowing this was a 2-parter, and were very surprised by the ending. Yeah, I know they announced it literally years ago, but plenty of the general public probably doesn't follow news about these movies that far in advance, or would have forgotten by now even if they did.

I totally fell for that because I intentionally avoided any spoilers regarding this movie. I just knew that the next two upcoming movies would be about Ant Man and Captain Marvel. Therefore, on the one hand, I predicted the actual ending of Infinity Wars as the ending that would make the most sense from a dramatic point of view. On the other hand, that ending would not make sense when part of a movie franchise. After all, there is no chance that Ant Man could pick up after that. It was only after leaving the cinema that I found out that Ant Man 2 and Captain Marvel will be set in the past. Had I known this fact before watching Infinity Wars I would have totally called the ending (It is kind of obvious when you know it is part one of two).

[Ramza00]

So my theory about Avengers 4.

Spoiler

Show

God I hate Deus Ex Machima events like the Infinity Gauntlet for once you get too deep into the magic territory and you can rewrite all of reality it just lowers the stakes for two reasons. 1) It can be undone on a whim. 2) It does not feel real, it does not feel physical even if there are stakes, loss, and things are forever change. It removes the human element from the Drama.

So understand just by touching Deus Ex Machima storytelling you kind of already lost the story you want to tell. Effectively we are not dealing with real world logic but instead Dream World Logic.



But there are different levels of Deus Ex Machima storytelling that work better or worse on a human drama level than other forms of Deus Ex Machima storytelling.

So from a bards / storytelling perspective where you want to tell a good story lets look at different ways this story can unfold.

• 1) You can rewind time with time stone or similar Deus Ex Machima effect. Narratively this rarely works for nothing really works in reality (aka a human level) to rewind time, it is all wish fulfillment and feels false to most humans.
• 2) You can create an alterate reality with the reality storm or similar Deus Ex Machima effect. Once again this often does not work for nothing in reality (aka a human level) to rewind time, once again it is wish fufillment and most humans can not buy it.
• 3) There is one deus ex machima that happens with all humans and it happens every night and it is dreamworld logic. Aka we are talking stuff involving the mind-stone, soul-stone, or both. In real world Dreams are weird for specific brain areas are underactive and almost turn off in a dream and other brain areas are normal or even more activity than normal. The rules of reality are flexibile. That is why I invoked above in picture of the Butterfly Dream Metaphor of Zhuangzi (one of the founders of Taoism, the butterfly dream deals with how things change and can transform into new things so it ask the question what is real in reality vs real in the mind by invoking the idea of dreams.)

So we know the soul stone in Avengers 3: Infinity War is different than the other stones, it has a form of wisdom and some form of thing that is kind like sentiencene or a will of its own.

• I propose that the Red Skull is stuck in the Soul Stone (played by Ross Marquand not Hugo Weaving aka Mr. Smith and Elrond) and that Red Skull is stuck in the Soul Stone in a conscious state.
• I also propose that Gamora is stuck in the Soul Stone in a conscious state.
• I also propose half of the universe is stored in save memory buffer in the soul stone. Thus the original avengers are trapped in the material / coproreal / what we normally call the real realm but people like Bucky, Groot, Star Lord, Mantis, Black Panther, my Spider Man, etc are all fine but not living trapped in a state between life and death in the soul stone. In the end of Avengers 4 I propose these people will all be return to life.
• But the people who were not turned to sands of time dust such as Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, etc they have the possibility of dying in Avengers 4 and staying dead.
• I have no clue if people who died in this movie but not by the snap such as Loki, Heimdall, Vision, etc will be returning or not. I guess these people are most likely going to stay dead but this is merely a guess.
• I think now that Thanos has ascended to Godhood he is trapped both in the material / corporeal / physical realm and in the Soul Stone. Aka there is him with his younger daughter Gamora in the Soul Stone (remember the scene with Thanos without his gauntlet near the very end.) while Thanos in the material realm still has the 6 infinity stones but also a damaged gauntlet.
• How the next story plays out I do not know, I have guesses depending on how I would write it but other people can write it different ways, that said I am pretty sure everyone is in save buffer memory and we are not going to use the time stone to rewind time for that will be just an unsatisfying and unstakes way to do Avengers 4. I have a hunch that Red Skull and Gamora story are not over and they will talk to Thanos just like the people who are still alive will talk to Thanos in the material / corporeal / real world. But there will also be lots of fighting and such for this is a MCU movie after all.

[UrielAwakened]

So did Batman v Superman. And to belittle it even further, as the population grows sending more people to an ever increasing ticket price the trend is just going to keep going irregardless of film quality.

I feel like those two points need to be repeated.

Spoiler

Show

You are spot on with how Thanos acquiring the stones was pretty repetitive, several characters played out-of-role of sorts and there are several plot holes in the film that you can pick up on the first viewing. And you know the second time you watch the film things in that area only get worse.

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, pretty clear you both missed that theme. The message of the movie is "How far are you willing to go to be a hero? To save the world?" Thanos is a creature of will, and the only one willing to make a tremendous sacrifice to get what he wants. Loki won't let Thor die, Peter won't up and kill Gamora before it's too late, Wanda doesn't kill Vision until it's too late, and Strange hands over the Time Stone (likely because it's required to reach that one particular outcome he foresaw them winning in). They're not plot holes. They're literally the message of the movie.

[Ramza00]

I just realized we are now in the too many Peters land in the MCU verse just like there are too many actors who play MCU characters under the name Chris (Links to SNL and how Chris Pratt sings about all the different people with the name Chris in action movies.).

I blame this all on Stan Lee...I do not know why this is Stan Lee's fault, his has more of an alteration problem.



Yet somehow it FEELS like it is Stan's Lee fault. Thus I am blaming him

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok I should have mentioned my review before. It was a good movie overall. So much action and excitement. The only part that I didn't like was the ending of the movie. It was so anti-cilmatic. They directors and writers of this movie could have come up with a better ending or at least end the Avengers movie series until they make a remake of it. But overall it was a good movie. I'll give it four out of five stars.