Raincarnation into a newborn - what could be the implications?

[nonsi]

.
Suppose a deity was to take the soul of a legendary hero that had fallen in battle or died of oldage and impregnate a woman with a fetus that carries his/her soul.
What possible implications could that hero's life experiences and past life abilities have on the newborn - at birth or later on as it ages?

[Anymage]

First question: natural conception where the deity slips in the heroic soul instead of a standard blank slate, or magical pregnancy where the woman begins gestating even if she hasn't actually had sex recently? Because the latter is going to create a good deal of talk.

Second question: what other entities capable of soul manipulation will notice this? If an evil deity gets wind of the plan, it might send agents to smother the newborn in the crib out of spite.

As far as the rules effects, none are listed. An overly focused take on the reincarnation spell would have you give the infant all the former hero's class levels, but then you're stuck trying to think up state modifiers for the infant body. I'd rather say that the infant has good baseline heroic potential (read: the same heroic stat layout that other pc types get), and a sense of calling/destiny that encourages them to try and have another go at their last goal. Heroic motivation, without any mechanical perks beyond what any other pc type would get.

[Goaty14]

Depending on how you look at it, the newborn growing up could perceive themselves to be a lot stronger than they were. Sure, they still have their class levels, but probably not their ability scores.

[rferries]

Depending on how you look at it, the newborn growing up could perceive themselves to be a lot stronger than they were. Sure, they still have their class levels, but probably not their ability scores.

Interesting point - depends on the class. A rogue would still deal sneak attack damage, a monk would still deal enhanced unarmed attack damage (and have monk AC and speed), and so forth. Even a fighter would still retain their BAB and be able to knock out commoners with just unarmed strike damage.

They'd be Small (or smaller), with the attendant size bonuses. A -6 "youth" penalty to Str, plus a Dex bonus/penalty depending on how young they are?

[nonsi]

First question: natural conception where the deity slips in the heroic soul instead of a standard blank slate, or magical pregnancy where the woman begins gestating even if she hasn't actually had sex recently? Because the latter is going to create a good deal of talk.

The latter... could be concealed with later copulation.

Second question: what other entities capable of soul manipulation will notice this? If an evil deity gets wind of the plan, it might send agents to smother the newborn in the crib out of spite.

I'd expect someone with deific powers to be subtle enough to keep a lid on it.

As far as the rules effects, none are listed. An overly focused take on the reincarnation spell would have you give the infant all the former hero's class levels, but then you're stuck trying to think up state modifiers for the infant body.

Yes. I much prefer the angle of late bloomer.

I'd rather say that the infant has good baseline heroic potential (read: the same heroic stat layout that other pc types get), and a sense of calling/destiny that encourages them to try and have another go at their last goal. Heroic motivation, without any mechanical perks beyond what any other pc type would get.

I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't explain why a deity would bother in the first place.

[Goaty14]

Interesting point - depends on the class. A rogue would still deal sneak attack damage, a monk would still deal enhanced unarmed attack damage (and have monk AC and speed), and so forth. Even a fighter would still retain their BAB and be able to knock out commoners with just unarmed strike damage.

They'd be Small (or smaller), with the attendant size bonuses. A -6 "youth" penalty to Str, plus a Dex bonus/penalty depending on how young they are?

Yea, a penalty to his scores would definitely debilitate a character, but the problem isn't necessarily penalties. The problem could be that the resulting character might have ability scores that don't support his class since he's in a whole new body now (not even his mind would stay the same, since we're transferring his soul), not just a simple reincarnate. Thus, the resulting (N)PC might try to overextend his abilities.

[rferries]

Yea, a penalty to his scores would definitely debilitate a character, but the problem isn't necessarily penalties. The problem could be that the resulting character might have ability scores that don't support his class since he's in a whole new body now (not even his mind would stay the same, since we're transferring his soul), not just a simple reincarnate. Thus, the resulting (N)PC might try to overextend his abilities.

Oooh yes, very good point. There's no precedent for this effect, so if it isn't handled the reincarnate way (keep your old ability scores, but use new racial modifiers) I'm not sure how it would work. Re-roll physical ability scores, but keep mental ones? I feel like the mental scores should stay the same as it's the same soul/mind/etc, just in a new body (as with magic jar).

What's the goal here, nonsi? Are you planning a particular class, feat, NPC...? For example:

Reincarnated Legend
In a past life you were a great hero, and you've been sent back by the gods in a new mortal shell in a time of great need.

Prerequisites
Must be selected at character creation.

Benefits
Choose an archetype (see below). You gain the associated benefits.

Archetype	Benefits
Trickster	You gain a +2 bonus on all Charisma-, Dexterity-, and Intelligence-based skills and may use those skills untrained.
Spellcaster	+1 caster level (for all spellcasting classes you take).
Warrior	Gain 2 bonus [Fighter] feats for which you meet the prerequisites. You may select feats requiring BAB +1 for this purpose.

Or:

Second Chance
You died in battle, but have been granted a reprieve by the gods - by restoring you to life as a child.

Prerequisites
Must have died and been brought back to life by the reincarnate spell.

Benefits
You are restored to life as if by true resurrection, with the following changes:

Your size is reduced to one size smaller than the standard size for an adult of your race.

You gain a -2 size penalty to your Strength score and a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity score.

Your age category is reduced to "juvenile" (one-half the minimum age for adulthood for your race). It is assumed that you were a normal child with only vague recollections of your past life before you reached this age.

You age normally from your new age. Once you reach the minimum age for an adult of your race your size increases one step and you ignore all the ability modifiers described above.

Special
The effects of this feat supersede the effects of the reincarnate spell, though you may choose to be restored to life as a member of any LA+0 humanoid race (at the DM's option).

You may choose to gain this feat as a bonus feat when you die (at the DM's option). If you do, you may ignore the feat prerequisites and you forfeit the next feat to which you would otherwise be entitled.

[nonsi]

What's the goal here, nonsi? Are you planning a particular class, feat, NPC...?

I'm working on formulating rules for deific campaigns (when they're done, I'll try to provide the incentive for using them rather than using the official rules from "Deities and Demigods"), and the ability to take the soul of a deceased and reincarnate it into a newborn is something that I'd expect only deities to be able to pull off.
I'm trying to figure out why they'd bother instead of just wait for some other potentially worthy candidate.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of traits might justify such reincarnation and how they'd be expressed in a reincarnated newborn.

Think about a story where one is born with a destiny to play a big role in the world - a role big enough and important enough that it would require someone that had proven himself/herself capable of (in some physical/mental way) and devoted enough (something that transcends alignment) to play.

Example I: Hercules wasn't just particularly strong. He was also tenacious and persistent.
Problem: There's no mechanical game expression for being tenacious and persistent.

Example II: A certain someone must be at a certain place at a certain time, doing a certain something.
Problem: That could be just about anyone, and the GM has no way of making sure that a given specific action/task is carried out.

One incentive I could think of is having (a) radically high ability score(s). Maybe reincarnation into a race that has that same ability score naturally high could boost it to inhuman level.
Another would be that some passed-life XP starts trickling back as time/levels go by, starting at juvenile age.
Another would be that such reincarnation could give a deity some control over the character's destiny that others can't notice or interfere with.


Second Chance is odd. seems like a feat you must take when you're dead. I don't think there's precedence for that.

Reincarnated Legend could be one way of going at it. What I'm missing here is the [EXTRA] factor, something that you have but no one else has access to (taking a feat at 1st level is something that anybody can do).

I know this isn't easy... if it were, I guess I'd have done it myself by now.

[rferries]

I'm working on formulating rules for deific campaigns (when they're done, I'll try to provide the incentive for using them rather than using the official rules from "Deities and Demigods"), and the ability to take the soul of a deceased and reincarnate it into a newborn is something that I'd expect only deities to be able to pull off.
I'm trying to figure out why they'd bother instead of just wait for some other potentially worthy candidate.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of traits might justify such reincarnation and how they'd be expressed in a reincarnated newborn.

Think about a story where one is born with a destiny to play a big role in the world - a role big enough and important enough that it would require someone that had proven himself/herself capable of (in some physical/mental way) and devoted enough (something that transcends alignment) to play.

Example I: Hercules wasn't just particularly strong. He was also tenacious and persistent.
Problem: There's no mechanical game expression for being tenacious and persistent.

Example II: A certain someone must be at a certain place at a certain time, doing a certain something.
Problem: That could be just about anyone, and the GM has no way of making sure that a given specific action/task is carried out.

One incentive I could think of is having (a) radically high ability score(s). Maybe reincarnation into a race that has that same ability score naturally high could boost it to inhuman level.
Another would be that some passed-life XP starts trickling back as time/levels go by, starting at juvenile age.
Another would be that such reincarnation could give a deity some control over the character's destiny that others can't notice or interfere with.


Second Chance is odd. seems like a feat you must take when you're dead. I don't think there's precedence for that.

Reincarnated Legend could be one way of going at it. What I'm missing here is the [EXTRA] factor, something that you have but no one else has access to (taking a feat at 1st level is something that anybody can do).

I know this isn't easy... if it were, I guess I'd have done it myself by now.

Perhaps a template, then? including "Your base attack bonus increases to equal your character level" (for a fighter reincarnation), "Your Reflex save increases to one-half your character level + 2" (for a rogue reincarnation), etc.?

Racial substitution levels?

An inherent bonus to two ability scores (e.g. Str and Con for a fighter reincarnation) equal to +1 per four character levels (to a max of +5 at 20th level)?

[nonsi]

Perhaps a template, then? including "Your base attack bonus increases to equal your character level" (for a fighter reincarnation),

Might be too much in case of fullcasters.

"Your Reflex save increases to one-half your character level + 2" (for a rogue reincarnation), etc.?

Nice, but non-symmetrical.

Racial substitution levels?

Never liked Racial Substitution.
I don't like the idea that ACFs are racially-tied.

An inherent bonus to two ability scores (e.g. Str and Con for a fighter reincarnation) equal to +1 per four character levels (to a max of +5 at 20th level)?

This sounds promising, but I see two problems here:
1. As given, this is not expressed at all during child adolescence or early levels.
2. If I were to give +1 at character creation and another +1 per 4 character levels (to a maximum of +6), this would have to come at the expense of 1st level feat, which again would kill the [EXTRA] factor... unless you could think of some other trade-off.

[aimlessPolymath]

What about a bloodline?

[rferries]

Here's a semi-gestalt template, that encourages multiclassing (you benefit from the experience of your past life even if you've chosen an entirely different career path).

Can still be tailored -for example the Spellcaster archetype might grant Magical Aptitude and/or Practiced Spellcaster as bonus feats, and all reincarnated legends could gain a Defense Bonus or other variant rule benefit.

Reincarnated Legend
You have returned from the afterlife in a new mortal shell.

Prerequisites
Must be selected at character creation.

Benefits
You gain the reincarnated legend template.

Special
At the DM's option, your level adjustment from the Reincarnated Legend template may be waived or increased.

Reincarnated Legend
Some mortal heroes achieve such greatness in life that they draw the attention of the gods themselves. After death, these heroes are sometimes reincarnated in new mortal vessels to serve the inscrutable aims of their deities - whether to save a kingdom in a time of great need or to bring about a new age of darkness. These "reincarnated legends" generally begin their new campaigns as adolescents who have spontaneously regained memories of thir past life.

A reincarnated legend appears just as a standard juvenile of their current race (which may differ from their race in their past life), save that they often have an self-assurance that belies their age.

Reincarnated legends gain the racial language (Common for humans) of their past life as a bonus language.

Creating A Reincarnated Legend
"Reincarnated legend" is an inherited template that can be added to any humanoid with the Reincarnated Legend feat (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A reincarnated legend has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
Many reincarnated legends have the Youth special quality (see below). Otherwise unchanged.

Hit Dice
See the relevant Archetype special quality.

Attacks and Damage
See the relevant Archetype special quality.

Special Qualities
A reincarnated legend retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains one of the Archetype special qualities described below. The reincarnated legend may also gain the Youth special quality, at the DM's option.

Archetype (Spellcaster) (Ex)
The reincarnated legend was a spellcaster in her past life. She gains the following benefits:

A +1 inherent bonus to one of her mental ability scores. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).

Her base Will save increases to one-half her character level +2.

Concentration, Knowledge (all skills), and Spellcraft are always considered class skills for her and she may use them untrained. She gains a +2 racial bonus on these skills.

Her caster level for her highest-level spellcasting class increases to equal her character level +2.

Archetype (Trickster) (Ex)
The reincarnated legend was a guileful hero in her past life. She gains the following benefits:

A +1 inherent bonus to her Charisma, Dexterity, or Intelligence score. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).

Her base Reflex save increases to one-half her character level +2.

All Charisma-, Dexterity-, and Intelligence-based checks are considered class skills for her and she may use them untrained. She may always take 10 on these skills, even if rushed or threatened.

Each of her Hit Dice increases one step (to a maximum of d6).

2 additional skill points per level (to a maximum of 8, not including her Intelligence bonus), with quadruple skill points at first level.

Archetype (Warrior) (Ex)
The reincarnated legend was a guileful hero in her past life. She gains the following benefits:

A +1 inherent bonus to one of her physical ability scores. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).

Her base Fortitude save increases to one-half her character level +2.

Ride and all Strength-based checks are considered class skills for her and she may use them untrained. She gains a bonus on these skills equal to one-half her character level.

Each of her Hit Dice increases one step (to a maximum of d10).

Her base attack bonus increases to three-quarters of her character level. If it was already at least three-quarters of her character level, it instead increases to equal her character level.

Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armour, and with shields (including tower shields).

Youth (Ex)
The reincarnated legend begins play in the age category of "juvenile" (one-half the minimum age for adulthood for her race). It is assumed that she was a normal child with only vague recollections of her past life before she reached this age. Her size category is reduced by one step. She gains a -2 size penalty to her Strength score and a +2 size bonus to her Dexterity score. A reincarnated legend who reaches the minimum age for adulthood for her race loses this special quality.

Abilities
See the relevant Archetype special quality.

Skills
See the relevant Archetype special quality.

Feats
See the relevant Archetype special quality.

Organization
As base creature, though reincarnated legends often rise to command armies for righteous (or unholy) causes.

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature.

Treasure
As base creature.

Alignment
As base creature.

Advancement
By character class.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +1.

[rferries]

It could be generalised even further i.e. no Archetypes, just a flat increase of BAB, saves, caster level by one step (e.g. "if caster level less than half of character level, increase it to half, otherwise increase it to full character level"), plus a competence bonus on all skills (especially Knowledge (history) since the legend actually lived through major events in a past life).

[brian 333]

The question has been answered in 1st ed.

The Reincarnation spell was a level 7 druid spell.

More generally, why would a reincarnated soul know anything at all about previous lives? It should be the same as if the being were brand new, until he dies, at which point he's dead but remembers both previous lives.

[rferries]

The question has been answered in 1st ed.

The Reincarnation spell was a level 7 druid spell.

More generally, why would a reincarnated soul know anything at all about previous lives? It should be the same as if the being were brand new, until he dies, at which point he's dead but remembers both previous lives.

I think the idea isn't to duplicate reincarnation, but to be a new character with vague memories/abilities retained from their past life.

[Anymage]

I still don't get what angle we're approaching this from.

If the players are running deities, then the specific stats of newborns don't matter. Some souls may have an especially large amount of destiny/heroic potential/whatever behind them. Their stats on the ground aren't particularly important, especially at any particular moment in time. (We can assume that someone with a heroic soul will quickly reach a decent level, but tracking xp for off-camera npcs is pointless busywork.) If they matter enough to stat out down the line, and if the game spans enough time for the reborn heroes to grow up, you can chose to have them re-enter the narrative when their levels make them relevant instead of trying to track them through low levels.

If you want the players to play the reborn children of destiny, don't. It's hard to give that sort of background in a way that's simultaneously significant and not overbalancing. And if it's supposed to be something where all the PC's are exceptional, just let that "exceptional" define the new baseline instead of having to tinker with the balance the whole rest of the system is based around because everybody got arbitrary bonuses. More importantly, remember that a tabletop RPG has to handle both the actions of the players as well as the randomness of the dice. Fated children of destiny forces you to ask some hard questions when a player rolls a 1 on a key roll.

[rferries]

More importantly, remember that a tabletop RPG has to handle both the actions of the players as well as the randomness of the dice. Fated children of destiny forces you to ask some hard questions when a player rolls a 1 on a key roll.

Unless their destiny is to always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[nonsi]

It could be generalised even further i.e. no Archetypes, just a flat increase of BAB, saves, caster level by one step (e.g. "if caster level less than half of character level, increase it to half, otherwise increase it to full character level"), plus a competence bonus on all skills (especially Knowledge (history) since the legend actually lived through major events in a past life).

Your ideas are all awesome, and they gave me a lot to work with.
While I really like your Spellcaster-Trickster-Warrior split, and while they're ideal for any of the classic Cleric/Fighter/Magic-User/Thief types, they might not serve other classes equally well.

Trying to find something that's simple enough on one hand and as symmetrically useful as possible on the other, and that would also emphasize the role of a reincarnated hero, I came up with the following template.
I just hope it's worth the LA.


Reincarnated Legend
In a past life you were a great hero, and you've been sent back by the gods in a new mortal shell in a time of great need.
Prerequisites: Must be selected at character creation.
Benefits: You gain the following benefits.
Prodigy: You're either exceptional or radical:

• Exceptional: You gain an inherent +1 bonus to two ability scores. This bonus increases by +1 at levels 7 and 14.
• Radical: You gain an inherent +2 bonus to one ability score. This bonus increases by +1 at levels 6, 12 and 18.
Note: a reincarnated legend's elevated ability scores reflect his/her passed life.

Divine Intervention: +2 on all saves. Reincarnated legends are exceptionally hardy and alert, and tend to survive many ordeals that are expected to bring them down.
Early Bloomer: Whatever your first class is, you begin play at minimum adult age.
LA: +1

[nonsi]

I still don't get what angle we're approaching this from.

If the players are running deities, then the specific stats of newborns don't matter. Some souls may have an especially large amount of destiny/heroic potential/whatever behind them. Their stats on the ground aren't particularly important, especially at any particular moment in time. (We can assume that someone with a heroic soul will quickly reach a decent level, but tracking xp for off-camera npcs is pointless busywork.) If they matter enough to stat out down the line, and if the game spans enough time for the reborn heroes to grow up, you can chose to have them re-enter the narrative when their levels make them relevant instead of trying to track them through low levels.

Not every homebrew is intended for a specific campaign.
The Godly Campaign rules could serve a godly campaign, or propose an explanation for a template, or allow a player to role a god on some part of a large adventure and a mortal character on another part (and repeat).

If you want the players to play the reborn children of destiny, don't. It's hard to give that sort of background in a way that's simultaneously significant and not overbalancing. And if it's supposed to be something where all the PC's are exceptional, just let that "exceptional" define the new baseline instead of having to tinker with the balance the whole rest of the system is based around because everybody got arbitrary bonuses.

1. Hard doesn't mean impossible.
2. All PCs/NPCs are exceptional, but very few were so awesome in their first incarnation that they'd be interesting enough to be granted a second one.

More importantly, remember that a tabletop RPG has to handle both the actions of the players as well as the randomness of the dice. Fated children of destiny forces you to ask some hard questions when a player rolls a 1 on a key roll.

1. Even the gods gamble. Reincarnating someone is by no means an insurance policy.
2. If the character's success is pivotal for a god's plot, it might actually follow that character closely for several years. I mean, what are several years for an eternal being? Also, gods might employ powerful messengers.

[Ashtagon]

How about that wedded to history features from that dragon magazine issue about living through time?

[nonsi]

How about that wedded to history features from that dragon magazine issue about living through time?

Thanks for the tip.
I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but I found an online description of a feat from dragon magazine named "kissed by the ages". All the options I saw in it were too underwhelming and/or circumstantial to merit putting a feat slot into it.