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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Haha, I am proud to say I have correctly guessed the chef of Tio H.
    Fantabulous Duskblade avatar by linklele, for which I am eternally grateful.
    Previous avatars composed by Nathan, Ivius and Threeshades, for what I am eternally grateful, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Long_shanks View Post

    And dare, what the actual hell? Mind explaining what happened in that demented mind of yours ?
    I dare say that he did an excellent job of explaining his thought processes . . .
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I dare say that he did an excellent job of explaining his thought processes . . .
    Yeah, you're right. Guess I'm still flabbergasted by it. I've read it three times, and I'm still unsure of how it all works.
    Last edited by Long_shanks; 2018-04-08 at 10:40 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Tio Hexblahday was an entertaining read not just because it showcased a new TO exploit but because it offered a wonderful narrative description of the brainstorming process of putting together something like this. And while I’ve never submitted something quite so, well, TO, I can vouch that I’ve been down a similar road many times. “Hmm, this is terrible. What tiny, slightly unique aspect can I play up? Huh, that feature’s weird, so what happens if I follow it down the rabbit hole?”

    And then you bring in ideas to build around, and you go deeper down the rabbit hole and have to discard different parts of the scaffolding you built up (even as your failed ideas send you in wildly different directions), and eventually you’ve got something that seems to kind of hold up, but it’s nothing like what you expected when you started. But the thought process is entirely recognizable. That’s kind of how I felt when making Speeloxhuu and Opsablepsia. And to a lesser extent, Li’l Brudder.

    Dare has absolutely succeeded at offering a delightful peek into the weird side of an Iron Chef’s mind. There are many paths to success in this contest, of course, but it often feels like this: just noodle around, riff on your weirder ideas, see if they lead to anything new (even if you have to throw away some of the stepping stones that got you there—whatever happened to using the Prestidigitation trick to gain a 1st level spell off-list?), and try to figure out when you’ve reached a point where it’s time to commit and make that submission. Even if you don’t go full TO, you might end up with something that you couldn’t have thought of from zero.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    My mind always goes to PO. I love crunching numbers, and since the group I play with is pretty low OP, I usually take a subpar build and try to make it as good as possible. That's what I did with both my entries so far for Ninja and Hexblade, trying to eke out as much as I could while staying within the "boundaries of the game".

    I've given a read to your builds Zaq and again it all feels so alien. Guess I still have a lot to learn

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Long_shanks View Post
    As soon as I read Erica, I knew gold was gone. Basically the same idead I had, just done way better. Well done, WhamBamSam!
    Thanks. I do feel a little silly about missing the 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) for Obtain Familiar though, especially as I could have spared the two skill points pretty easily. Ah well. Didn't end up mattering that much.

    Also, Darrin asked why I didn't use Vashar instead of Human. It comes down to just not liking Vashar. I guess it might save you from effects that specify humans, but using Vashar because my human bonus feat happens to be Vile just feels like a cheap grab for originality to me. You also took a more permissive reading of Supernatural Instincts than I allowed myself (I mostly just threw it in there as a potential "screw you DM" for when they start trying to throw breath weapons and such at you to get around Arcane Resistance), but it does indeed have some potential for cheese. One exploit I'm fond of is a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold (or Old Half-Dragon, but let's be realistic) with Evasive Reflexes, Supernatural Instincts, Improved Combat Reflexes, and some means of carrying around their Blink Dog familiar. The Blink Dog flips Blink on and off as a series of free actions, and each time the Kobold gets to make a 5-ft step.

    And speaking of cheese, daremeto, you are a national treasure (or whatever the analogue is for a D&D forum instead of a nation, "dragon's hoard" maybe?). Never change.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2018-04-08 at 03:46 PM.

    Iron Chef Medals
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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Thanks. I do feel a little silly about missing the 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) for Obtain Familiar though, especially as I could have spared the two skill points pretty easily. Ah well. Didn't end up mattering that much.

    Also, Darrin asked why I didn't use Vashar instead of Human. It comes down to just not liking Vashar. I guess it might save you from effects that specify humans, but using Vashar because my human bonus feat happens to be Vile just feels like a cheap grab for originality to me. You also took a more permissive reading of Supernatural Instincts than I allowed myself (I mostly just threw it in there as a potential "screw you DM" for when they start trying to throw breath weapons and such at you to get around Arcane Resistance), but it does indeed have some potential for cheese. One exploit I'm fond of is a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold (or Old Half-Dragon, but let's be realistic) with Evasive Reflexes, Supernatural Instincts, Improved Combat Reflexes, and some means of carrying around their Blink Dog familiar. The Blink Dog flips Blink on and off as a series of free actions, and each time the Kobold gets to make a 5-ft step.

    And speaking of cheese, daremeto, you are a national treasure (or whatever the analogue is for a D&D forum instead of a nation, "dragon's hoard" maybe?). Never change.
    I swear that 4 ranks in K: Arcana for Obtain Familiar and 4 ranks in Spellcraft for Practiced Spellcaster have to be the most commonly missed prereqs among Iron Chef builds. You are very far from the first chef I've seen to mess up the prereqs on one of those two feats. Regardless, Miss Eri was an excellent build. Thrall of Orcus was an excellent replacement for the "standard" Paladin of Tyranny (3 levels for the Aura of Despair is a wee bit much in an E6 build). Does "D'zhar" mean/refer to/pun as anything in particular?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I swear that 4 ranks in K: Arcana for Obtain Familiar and 4 ranks in Spellcraft for Practiced Spellcaster have to be the most commonly missed prereqs among Iron Chef builds. You are very far from the first chef I've seen to mess up the prereqs on one of those two feats. Regardless, Miss Eri was an excellent build. Thrall of Orcus was an excellent replacement for the "standard" Paladin of Tyranny (3 levels for the Aura of Despair is a wee bit much in an E6 build). Does "D'zhar" mean/refer to/pun as anything in particular?
    I'd believe it. I've definitely caught the Practiced Spellcaster mistake when judging in the past.

    D'zhar comes from contracting "dragzhar," the alternate name for the Night Hunter Bat from its MoF entry into something I thought looked good. In the lore, it comes from the name of the first Drow adventurer to tame one, so I thought about making her family a human house descended from Crinti nobility a part of her backstory (and probably would if I were inserting her into an actual game), but didn't end up bothering since the last name was just an afterthought to the "Miss Eri loves company" pun.

    Iron Chef Medals
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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    And speaking of cheese, daremeto, you are a national treasure (or whatever the analogue is for a D&D forum instead of a nation, "dragon's hoard" maybe?). Never change.
    I have to concur. I cannot believe I didn't guess earlier that this build was made by you, the specialist for TO exploits that leave you bursting in laughter at the sheer absurdity of where they lead you!
    VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
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    And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    I like exploring the Frontiers of where legalese readings of the rules can take you. I mean, that's why I make those skill guides. From there, one can sort of see where in the entirety of the gigantic sprawling World multiple designers worked a decade to cocreate.

    I remember as a kid, I used to find bugs in video games and just noodle around with them to see how I could make the game break. "What happens if I use this jump ability to land in the background?"

    The DND ruleset is very much a kin to a computer program, written in a language I'm native to. In a way, it's like I'm exploring my own language as well. I've marveled and how one claws can be interpreted in two very different ways to have a Rippling effect throughout the very fabric of the game itself.

    And the designers, the weird gods they are, gave kobolds draonic age categories, seemingly to draw thousands of characters of online text through the minds of Grognards 10 years later.

    I imagine computer encoders sometimes feel this way.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    And the designers, the weird gods they are, gave kobolds draonic age categories kobold age categories...
    Fixed that for you.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
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    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Here we go...

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    I swear, I've "advanced through" this conversation before.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I swear, I've "advanced through" this conversation before.
    Possibly.
    "Dragonwrought kobold" is basically my own personal, "Pazuzu!" at this point.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
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    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    Possibly.
    "Dragonwrought kobold" is basically my own personal, "Pazuzu!" at this point.
    I got away with abusing that in a campaign before. Nystrul's Magic Aura and bluffed the paladin. Paladin didn't realize I was CE and got him to say it 3 times fast
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post

    And the designers, the weird gods they are, gave kobolds draonic age categories, seemingly to draw thousands of characters of online text through the minds of Grognards 10 years later.

    I imagine computer encoders sometimes feel this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Here we go...
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I swear, I've "advanced through" this conversation before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    Possibly.
    "Dragonwrought kobold" is basically my own personal, "Pazuzu!" at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    I got away with abusing that in a campaign before. Nystrul's Magic Aura and bluffed the paladin. Paladin didn't realize I was CE and got him to say it 3 times fast

    shall we not ....
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    I was gonna participate in this one, but I ran out of time. Probably a good thing; I would have been the lowball in this field of ingenuity. Nonetheless, presented for amusement, the stubbiest of stub builds:
    "Handsome" Hugh Harris, the Happy Hellbred (body) Hexblade 6
    ACF: Dark Companion

    Feats:
    EWP Elven Courtblade
    Weapon Finess
    Power Attack
    Ability Focus, and lots of it!

    Bonus Devil Touched feats:
    Devil Touched
    ?
    ?

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    I grappled with the energy drain special attack and felt confident that supernatural transformation + death devotion is indeed a viable way to have a supernatural energy drain ability due to these two primary sources about energy drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Energy Drain And Negative Levels
    Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

    A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

    -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
    -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
    -5 hit points.
    -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
    If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
    Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

    A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
    and this from the glossary in the Players Handbook p.308
    energy drain: An attack that saps a creature’s vital energy giving it negative levels, which might permanently drain the creature’s
    levels.
    Energy drain is a game defined term. And it's defined in a way to allow anything that saps a creatures vital energy to give it negative levels. Trust me, I had to do a lot of losing levels research to finish Tio Hexblahday.

    The real sour part is what Darrin pointed out: Is death devotion an innate spell like ability? It's def a spell like ability according to the feat description and the domain feats description. The "innate" part is the piece that is an argumentative because inherent likely pertains to how a race gets their spell like abilities and doesn't include feats or class features. But some feats can only be taken at first level or have words like heritage or bloodline in them so there is at least some place to argue that it isn't a hard and fast rule as to what constitutes an "innate" spell-like ability. In the case of a hellbred who fuels his powers through steadfast devotion to a religious element aligned specifically to the power of death itself, where does one rule about powers being inherent due to the character's faith (as represented by the feat)? The power of Tio's belief is the source of his spell-like ability. Why isn't that considered innate?

    Further muddying the waters is the fact that the word innate is the definition of the word. Only 1/3 of the definition of the word innate is enough to argue that it precludes the use of feats or class features.

    adjective
    1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native:
    innate musical talent.
    2. inherent in the essential character of something:
    an innate defect in the hypothesis.
    3. originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience:
    an innate knowledge of good and evil.
    So...that's why i felt secure hitting the throttle on this monstroso.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VII)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    The real sour part is what Darrin pointed out: Is death devotion an innate spell like ability? It's def a spell like ability according to the feat description and the domain feats description. The "innate" part is the piece that is an argumentative because inherent likely pertains to how a race gets their spell like abilities and doesn't include feats or class features. But some feats can only be taken at first level or have words like heritage or bloodline in them so there is at least some place to argue that it isn't a hard and fast rule as to what constitutes an "innate" spell-like ability. In the case of a hellbred who fuels his powers through steadfast devotion to a religious element aligned specifically to the power of death itself, where does one rule about powers being inherent due to the character's faith (as represented by the feat)? The power of Tio's belief is the source of his spell-like ability. Why isn't that considered innate?

    Further muddying the waters is the fact that the word innate is the definition of the word. Only 1/3 of the definition of the word innate is enough to argue that it precludes the use of feats or class features.
    "Innate" means inborn, or natural. An innate trait is an expected and perfectly normal trait to find in a given species or related species.

    Almost no feats are innate.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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