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2018-03-19, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
So I might be starting a new campaign soon, and I decided to take a closer look at rolling vs. point buy. I kind of tend to favor rolling, just because you end up with goofier characters, but I *don't* like it when some players roll really well and others roll super poorly, so I wanted to figure out what the likelihood of that happening was.
So this is a little math project I did with the assistance of anydice.com. The table below shows the probable results of rolling 6 stats using 4d6 drop lowest. The first column are results that are 1 std. deviation below the mean, the middle column are the average result, and the last column are the results 1 standard deviation above the mean. "1 standard deviation above the mean" more or less means that ~85% of results are going to be worse. In reality, things are more complicated than that, but we'll ignore that for now.
I also calculated the 'point buy' cost of the low end results and the high end results. (For stats above 15, 15-16 costs 3, 16-17 costs 3, and 17-18 costs 4.) I figured this would give me the extreme worst case and best case for rolls.
low end mean high end highest 14.23 15.66 17.09 2nd highest 12.73 14.17 15.61 3rd highest 11.50 12.96 14.42 3rd lowest 10.23 11.76 13.29 2nd lowest 8.75 10.41 12.07 lowest 6.55 8.50 10.45 Point Buy Value 18 31 45 Modifier Total +1 +6 +10
Other distributions I looked at:
"Flat": 14/13/13/12/12/10 = 27(+6)
"Minmaxed": 17/16/13/12/9/7 = 36(+5)
Point Buy is 27 and the Modifier Total runs between +3(8/8/8/15/15/15) and +7(14/12/12/12/12/12)
So in summary, you tend to get higher end results by rolling (>50% chance of getting better than a 15) and you get 'better' stats overall. Even someone who rolls very well probably won't disrupt the game that much, since the more important stats are the higher ones, and those tend to have a much narrower deviation. (rolling an 18 for your highest stat is much better than rolling a 12 for your lowest.) A character who rolls poorly is going to have a very ineffective character overall, and will probably be more disruptive to a game than someone who rolls high particularly if they want to play a certain character type.
I'm currently deciding between '1 guaranteed 15, roll for the rest' and 'use 4d6 drop lowest or point buy, whichever is better.'
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2018-03-19, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Orlando FL
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
4d6 drop the lowest with nothing less than an 8 is my preferred method. Also assign as needed. Cant stand point buys. That said stats have bounced around a bit than they used to and the old dump stat of charisma isn't the dump stat any more that it used to be.
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2018-03-19, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I don't like rolling, always seems to create imbalance.
I like the suggestions some people have mentioned in similar threads of letting each player roll an array and any player can use any other player's array. That way you don't have to feel stuck if you get the bad rolls.
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2018-03-19, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I like rolling. I would not put a floor of 8 on bad stats - sometimes a bad stat is what makes a character. I would definitely provide a mechanism to toss overall crap rolls, though. I’d also make sure to have the whole party witness the rolls. There’s nothing quite as annoying as feeling a little suspicious about everyone else’s godly rolls.
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2018-03-19, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2005
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
The way I see it, once you start rigging rolling to guarantee strong stats, the rolling is a pointless ceremony. Just tell people they can set whichever stats they consider appropriate for their characters at the relevant level.
If there is to be any point to rolling, it should be possible to get a wide spread, a tight spread, a low spread or a high spread. And then whatever you get, no matter how good or bad, you play that in your three-year campaign, to honour the risk/reward element you chose over point buy.Ur-member and coffee caterer of the fan club.
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2018-03-19, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
As a DM I offer both point buy and rolling. All my players are friends of mine, so I don't care what they pick, even if they roll and blatantly cheat to have good stats. It's a collaborative game, not an adversarial one, and if they've got higher-than-average stats, so be it; I'll just up the challenge a bit in ways that can't be overcome with +1 to hit.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2018-03-19, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
This is fine, but makes for very high stats overall, and also reduces variance within the party.
Right! Grog Strongjaw's 6 INT made for hilarious shenanigans.
And yes, Roll20 or being present is required if you're rolling. Otherwise it just strains the trust the group has needlessly.
I disagree... One point of rolling is to have an element of risk in character creation. Another reason is just to introduce variance. "Woah, my guy has 3 16s and 2 6's, what's up with that?"
One method I've considered is a 'push your luck' version where you roll 8-9 sets of 4d6 drop lowest, but you have to choose to keep or throw away rolls as you get them. You can throw away a 12 to try and get a second 15+ number, but there's always the chance you get a 6.
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2018-03-19, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
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2018-03-19, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I with you on not caring about players having high stats, but cheating is strictly no bueno.
Gary has a 28 point buy character that he rolled for.
Jordan has a 46 point buy character that he 'rolled' for.
Gary laughs it off, but inwardly, he wonders if Jordan cheated. People have an inherent desire to be the best person within a group and whenever Jordan's character upstages Gary's, Gary will get an itch in the back of his mind wondering... "Did he cheat?" Eventually those thoughts change to "He did cheat." I've seen this kind of stuff wour relationships. There's no reason to put up with it.
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2018-03-19, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
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- The Moral Low Ground
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
Rolling can create issues. You can get up the "averages" and probability all you want, but as anyone who's ever played an Xcom game can testify; missing a 95% chance probably happens more than 5% of the time, or at least it'll be a bigger issue. I don't think it's wise to leave something that'll effect you and the game's sense of balance through what could be a very long game to a few dice-rolls over the course of five minutes.
But pointbuy has it's flaws. I dislike that pointbuy in 5e has a minimum of 8, not from a powergamer's perspective, but in that it just makes less colourful characters. I'd rather see it at 5 or 6, though such low scores should be worth half a point rather than an increased amount.
A big issue is that Int is dumped by everyone and everything with the sole exception of wizards (No, your eldritch knight'll do just fine as a dumbass) and strength's an easy one to miss if your GM's a heretic who's misinterpreted (likes) acrobatics and denies and the god-skill of Athletics. So point allocation's gonna be plagued by these dumps, at least charisma has some RP benefits. There's no RP difference between 10'n 8 intelligence, but then I consider anything less than a 26 to be roll-playing down anyway so...
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2018-03-19, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I once figured out the most typical distribution of stats for 4d6 drop lowest using medians rather than means. It aligns pretty well with rounding your column of "average" results: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
Notably, that's significantly better than you can get with standard point-buy in 5e (in which you can't even buy a 16 no matter how hard you try). This is one reason that I significantly prefer rolling for stats in 5e.You can call me Draz.
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2018-03-19, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
A player who rolls poorly and knows what they're doing is going to have a SAD or non-AD class like a Moon Druid, Shepherd Druid, Necromancer, or Rogue. They'll be very effective at what they do and will bring a lot to the table.
I concede that a lot of players don't know how to play the game well--and those players will have very ineffective characters regardless of what stats they roll, until they learn how to play better.
Yes, this is a good move. A player who rolls incredible stats right there in front of everybody doesn't have to be embarrassed the way he might be if he rolled them in private. Besides, it's always fun to watch a new-ish player's excitement when they roll a natural 18.
Ah, XCOM... XCOM changed the way I view rolled stats. Before I played XCOM, I was a teenage munchkin who couldn't stand to roll low. XCOM made me realize that even the guy with crummy stats can still be a valuable team member if you give him the right equipment (a few Heavy Explosives and a laser pistol) and use him in the right way (e.g. as a spotter for a sniper). He may die eventually, but then again, everyone dies in XCOM.
I'm actually working on an XCOM-inspired 5E CRPG in my spare time, because XCOM is exactly the experience I want out of 5E. (I've realized that I don't like 5E very much for TTRPG play due to lack of depth and excessive combat focus, and have stopped running it, but it's still a good game for tactical puzzles and fighting monsters and building up equipment in order to some day challenge the Final Boss. In short, it's a good game for the XCOM experience.)Last edited by MaxWilson; 2018-03-19 at 10:46 AM.
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2018-03-19, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I play Xcom, and most Xcom players have no understanding of probability.
A 5% chance is actually pretty huge for something that you expect as 'definite.' Every combat is going to have 30-40 attack rolls, the probability of *not* missing a 95% chance attack once in a while is pretty low.
In this case, the actual chance of rolling universally 'poor' or worse for all stats is actually much lower than a 5% chance, and the total number of people rolling is usually like 6.
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2018-03-19, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
The difference is that everyone I play with is part of a RL friend group. We'd known each other for years before we started gaming, and more often than not do non-gaming stuff when we've got time to hang out. The relationships aren't going to sour, because the characters are ultimately disposable constructs that facilitate getting together, drinking some beers and making a **** joke or three. It's not competitive at all.
That experience isn't portable to a table that takes the game incredibly seriously, probably, and I certainly don't think it's portable to a table of strangers in the back of a gaming store.In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2018-03-19, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
But XCOM: UFO Defense did seem to have wonky probabilities as I recollect it, probabilities which didn't match actual results in play. Even a weapon rated for only a 22% hit rate seems to hit significantly more often than that at close range, in my memory anyway. It's as if there are additional "scatter" rules on top of that % hit chance that can turn a near-miss into a hit under certain circumstances.
I never really figured out the armor rules either. Just "get the best armor you can afford and try not to get hit by a blaster bomb" was all I could really do; but I could never really quantify how dangerous it was for a guy in power armor to get hit by a heavy plasma weapon. Sometimes he dies instantly, sometimes he's fine, sometimes he's wounded, and sometimes armor degrades. Go figure.
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2018-03-19, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
IME, at character creation players all want to roll for their stats, because they want the possibility to get something great. However, after rolling, they tend to be unhappy if they roll poorer than others... As a GM, I therefore prefer point buy. What I did last time to accomodate my players, I mandated rerolls if their rolled stats were too poor or too good (as if generarated with point buy). Luckily none had to reroll too good stats...
It's fun to play around with alternative rolled stats systems, though. I usually just test them by running Monte Carlo simulations in excel to get a feel of their probability curves.
I guess you should, before generating stats, ask the players if they want to roll stats because they just want the randomness which they don't get with point buy, or if they want to gamble to possibly win big stats. If the latter, make sure they are also OK with playing a relatively sucky character. If the former, just establish some stat sets using point buy and roll randomly between those, or have them reroll until their point buy value is acceptable.
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2018-03-19, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
First of all, most people have very definite concepts they wanna play. Lot's of people (not me) want to play a specific class when the come to the table, and nuking 'paladin' as an option because you only have 2 positive stats is really rough.
The issue being that players are attached to their DND characters. People buy minis, commission art, write backstories... and they only get one PC at a time. In XCOM, you have 4-6 squaddies and if they die, that may weaken the team, but you can use them in the meantime. In 5e, a PC with crappy stats is actually incentivized to get himself killed, which encourages him to be less invested in the character, which... is BS.
TBH I've only played New XCOM, which is a different game entirely, but there people still complain about the hit/miss chances.
Haaa... I think your definition of 'incredibly seriously' is my definition of 'engaged.' I'm more than willing to drop a beer back and laugh whilst playing, but what you're talking about is a whole nother level. People are competitive inherently, even if its fricking beer pong.
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2018-03-19, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
It's a multi-player party, and the avenue of competition is to be useful within the world. Any competent DM should be giving his players equal opportunity to shine, and it's much, much easier to balance an all-18s character against an all 10s character in 5E than a level 6 Fighter against a level 6 Druid in 3E.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2018-03-19, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
Well, duh. 3e eschewed balance as a concept.
But all-18s are going to dominate the party to the point that its going to be reasonably difficult to give everyone a chance to shine. That +4 CHA is going to be bigger than the other guy's proficiency bonus for most of the game, so all of the 18-stat-guys are going to be better than the 10-stat-guys at everything that isn't a class feature.
I would add, that I think a guy with high stats imbalances things worse than a guy with all low stats.
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2018-03-19, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
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2018-03-19, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
Conceded with the following caveats: all-10s isn't considered playable, so anyone doing that would go into it knowing they're underpowered, which seemingly undercuts your belief that everyone is engaged in cutthroat intrapartry competition; and providing avenues to use class features is the way you create balance between imbalanced characters.
I do think your suggestion two posts ago that tables that don't match your expectation aren't engaged with the game is a bit narrowminded.In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2018-03-19, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
In one game I specifically wanted hero of legend characters and had everyone roll 5d6 b3 7 times best 6.
This was great as I specifically wanted all the characters to be well and noticeably above the average man or woman and created the campaign around that assumption.I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2018-03-19, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I almost always roll for my PCs and it ticks Brazenburn of sometimes. I tend to get really lucky when rolling and get things like... 16 15 14 17 10 13... 18 15 15 13 17 12. Brazenburn at one point had me take of the highest instead of the lowest.
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2018-03-19, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
Players don't have to have only one PC at a time unless the DMs forces them to. You can run character trees, or have multiple campaigns running concurrently (e.g. a high-level, a mid-level, and a low-level).
I agree that people who create their character concept before rolling their stats are more likely to be frustrated than people who do it the other way around.
This just isn't true unless the players don't know how to play or aren't mentally flexible. I defy you to create a PC with all 18s that completely dominates any character I could possibly create with all 10s. It can't be done, because levels and class features are more important than stats in 5E, and you only get to pick 20 levels out of a possible 200+. You will never be able to dominate all aspects of play on your own.
If you exploit your all 18s to make a totally MAD character like a GWM Warbearian Nocan the Merciless, I can still be your buddy Fahrfhird the Mendicant Magician. In roleplaying scenarios, I can still run my chicken farm and help solve riddles and appease the Sphinx when we get riddles wrong; I still have skill and tool proficiencies you don't that may help me recognize obscure traps and clues you wouldn't pick up on yourself; when it comes time to fight I can still take a bunch of enemies out of the fight with Hypnotic Pattern or Fear--perhaps I only make 7 out of 12 orcs run away whereas an Int 18 magician would make 9 out of 12 orcs run away, but Nocan is more than equipped to clean up all the orcs I didn't scare off. Or I can turn myself into a T-Rex, or summon up an Earth Elemental, or cast Greater Invisibility or Haste on Nocan, or conjure up a Phantom Steed and plink away with my Fire Bolt if Nocan is unconscious at 0 HP due to bad luck against the orcs. And if Nocan is unconscious and at 0 HP, he will be especially glad to have me saving his bacon by pulling his body out of combat and stuffing him in a Rope Trick, whereas if I weren't around he'd simply be eaten by the orcs when they got back to camp. (Or maybe I just revive him with the Healer feat, which Nocan doesn't have because he was busy investing in GWM and Elven Accuracy or whatnot.)
Nocan is not dominating play here--we're both playing the game.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2018-03-19 at 11:49 AM.
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2018-03-19, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I'll also say that one of the most fun characters I've ever had was a palladium character whose highest stat was a 12. He had a 10, and the rest were below 10. He barely qualified for a class at all. He was challenging and a bunch of fun as I had to try a lot harder to be successful.
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2018-03-19, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
Nah, then what you are doing is effectively raising the average power level, or letting them decide their own stats (re-rolling until they get all 18s). That might be fine for the group, though.
My point was mostly that it is the relative difference that matters. It doesn't help to reroll bad stats to get ok stats (objectively), if someone else rolled great stats and everyone else has bad stats in comparison.
So to keep everyone happy you (the group) need to set a standard of what is an acceptable power range. Point buy is easy, but you can devise a randomized method as suggested. Of course, this is not necessary if the players are ok with the power discrepancy.
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2018-03-19, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I don't think everyone is engaged in cutthroat competition. I just think everyone wants to be cool, and having great stats lets you be cool more often and do things that someone with crappy stats can't, and if there's a disctinct possibility that somebody got to be awesome by cheating, then why shouldn't I be awesome by cheating? And if everyone is fudging HP rolls, stat rolls, d20 rolls... Why are you playing 5e? I think it hurts enjoyment of the game if players are rewarded for being dishonest. If you want everyone to have good stats, give them high stats. If you want variance, just have them roll in front of you. Even if you see the downsides as small, there's simply no reason to let people cheat.
And my earlier statement was merely to say that I'd be very frustrated DMing or playing at a table where no-one cares how effective their character is. It was an assertion about me, not about players in general.
Oh yeah, of course you can do this, and it can lead to a nice situation where PCs get good stats in non-mechanical things, like an archer who's also buff or a paladin who's also pretty smart. I'm just in favor of rolling in general, and I wanted to make an argument that it's in your best interest as a player, generally.
This seems like so much work!? Why would you do this?
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2018-03-19, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
i like rolling but i always give each player one 18. i take there highest stat if it is not any 18 and bump it up to 18. i also tend to mess with there stats if there too far apart. it one player has 3 18 and the other nothing higher than 14 i will make the party closer to balanced but if a player tells me that don't want that help i don't do it. in general what every you do try and make a fairly balance party and keep the power of each player in check with the world.
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2018-03-19, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
The most important part, imo, to determine stat generation is THE PLAYERS.
I personally prefer rolling, but player emotions are more important. Do the players trust each other? Do they mind if another character has better stats than they do? Do they enjoy the trials and tribulations of all the characters? Can they enjoy playing an "inferior" character?
If any of those answers are no, then point buy or array is what should be used.
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2018-03-19, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rolling Vs. Point Buy: Stats & Discussion
I like all the methods of stat generation in the PHB.
The only thing I dislike is re-rolling until you get massively high stats. Not that I think it's terrible to get massively high stats, I just find the idea of many re-rolls defeats the purpose of rolling.
I think my preferred method is roll, and if you don't like the roll use point buy or the standard array. It would bump up average stats a bit, but not terribly I think.