swimming in armor - missing rules

[Chugger]

Holy crap. Found an old copy of Dragon magazine on line. No swim speed insta-drown in metal armor rules - but ... well just look at it. Set the wayback machine for...

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg148.pdf

[ZorroGames]

This was interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDatf-VZtg now I need to see if it is useful as a concept guide in playing 5e.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks all. What Corsair is getting at is reality - as far as I've ever understood it. I've never gone in the water wearing metal armor, but back in the day there were Dragon magazine articles and supplemental rules (the fog of memory...I think I'm more assuming this now than actually remembering) about such things. In campaigns I was in in before 1980 we had rules on this - you mostly sank like a rock - but such rules had been cobbled together from various sources. The rule books were mere pamphlets and very sparse.

Again, we all know DnD is not a reality emulator. I run into players who believe chopping down a tree is easy and can be done very very quickly - I've done it, small trees, with a dull axe, then with a good saw - also w/ chainsaw - and only w/ chainsaw is it "easy" or remotely quick (though I suppose if I really had Str 20 and a good sharp heavy axe that a small tree might go down in one blow). They believe logs (like raft size logs) can just be carried like pots and pans and underwear and socks ... logs (which I have moved by hand) are very very heavy (unless dnd trees are all balsa!) - I've run into players and DMs who felt dragging a wood raft that can hold 6 people through the Chult jungle was reasonable and doable by one person! Gah.

And so on and so on. Have you ever dug a grave or trench - a real one that's deep, in heavy soil - with just a shovel? I have. It's not easy and takes a long time. People who live exclusively in large cities and who have no experience digging, chopping wood, burning actual fires - a context of reality that one can extrapolate to other things (like games) if one wants. You can read about how things are done - watch movies shows videos - and learn a lot if you're inclined to do so - a lot of us are so lazy about these things lately....

Anyway, yeah, there's no official rule save swimming speeds and encumbrance. So in DnD you can tread water or swim across a deep lake in plate mail. Which is funny. Of course by the rules you can hold your breath, and if your con is 18, you can walk - fight orcs - swim - run - shout - cast spells - build part of a house - mine gold - do all sorts of things - for FOUR SOLID MINUTES - take another deep breath and hold it - and keep doing strenuous things for FOUR MORE MINUTES - and again and again and again all day long. That's pretty hysterical. But I keep telling myself, not a reality emulator - at some point you actually do have to streamline for playability's sake. The price is having to swallow stuff that, at least for me, is very hard to believe and to suspend disbelief on. For AL I ultimately need what is RAW and not kludged, because I can't predict how a dozen different DMs will rule ... and when there is no RAW I have to realize I can't go to a table knowing what the ruling will be - I must be prepared for almost anything. What's really weird is how most DMs swear their mental methane is so reasonable and will actually invest in selling us on how "right" they are - how their entirely subjective opinion on something is "so reasonable" - and not invest even ten seconds in trying to comprehend how such things really work. Oh well. So be it.

Swimming in mail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDatf-VZtg

Swimming in samurai armor:



Swimming in full plate:

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Those are real-life, regular people, with the one testing the samurai armor being the best swimmer (if out of practice).

Keep in mind a D&D PC can be strong as an ape at lvl 1, and kill an average joe with one unarmed attack (without being a Monk or Tavern Brawler)

[Naanomi]

Reading some of the commentary on those videos, the inability to do any swimming strokes because of limits on range of motion are a significant hinderance to actually moving in the water; but staying buoyant and dogpaddling isn’t unreasonably taxing

[Chugger]

Even holier crap ... glowing with heavenly mana crap even ... someone on "Yahoo answers" (now there's an authority!) said that you can swim in plate armor, that wimpy historians in bad recreation armor have overstated how heavy and awkward it was. Now, this is true - wimpy historians have jumped to wrong conclusions about heavy armor - you can roll in it for example, if you're fit and your armor is made for you and is good armor, etc. But this yahoo "authority" is taking one premise (that modern historians have overstated armor's awkwardness) and clearly extrapolated it too far, that you absolutely can swim in it.

I'd love to take this Yahoo guy out on a boat in the middle of a lake, stuff him into a suit of perfectly tailored heavy plate, and kick him over the side - and watch him swim to shore. Okay okay I guess I'd need a diver standing by to rescue him...gr the hell of having a RL non-evil alignment....

Anyway, I find people quoting this Yahoo in other places as gospel truth. As a group, I think we've almost entire unlearned how to actually think. Oh yeah, I'm sure someone here is going to support the Yahoo as gospel, too - but if that's you, I have a challenge - don't blast us with your mental methane - instead show us the video of you actually doing it. And please don't die (don't really do it unless you have your mom's permission, really! And yes that applies even if you're 40 years old). Meanwhile, I'll remain skeptical (and a hypocrite, of course, I'm not about to show the video of me drowning in metal armor in the deep end of a pool! Hah!).

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1191300AA5jRZl

[Chugger]

Hah, now Samurai armor was given an exception back in the day. It's not medieval plate. Huge difference. Sam. armor is laminate and layered - iirc - not nearly as much iron.

Find us a video of someone swimming in 60 pound field plate armor, please.

[ZorroGames]

Hah, now Samurai armor was given an exception back in the day. It's not medieval plate. Huge difference. Sam. armor is laminate and layered - iirc - not nearly as much iron.

Find us a video of someone swimming in 60 pound field plate armor, please.

Best I could do was chainmail un my 10 second search. Like you almost said this is a fantasy emulator not a reality emulator.

[Chugger]

http://forums.baldmove.com/discussio...mor-video-test

Maybe I'm wrong then, except this guy goes about what, 20 feet? And is obviously struggling.

If he were thrown off a boat by an Ogre, I see him making some progress horizontally while mostly sinking, and unless shore is pretty close or divers get him- drowning. But hey, I could be wrong.

[Naanomi]

He looks like he has way less than 16 strength though, and probably can’t hold his breath for 3-4 minutes minutes either

[NorthernPhoenix]

I think the easiest way to meet in the middle is to just give disadvantage to checks to swim. This represents it being neither easy or impossible.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Pretty sure I gave a summary on the rules for 5e. According to the rules if you have the strength score and proficiency you swim in any armor just as well as anybody else without a swim speed.

[Unoriginal]

Find us a video of someone swimming in 60 pound field plate armor, please.

... Dude, are you for bloody real?

Swimming in mail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDatf-VZtg

Swimming in full plate:

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Pretty sure I gave a summary on the rules for 5e. According to the rules if you have the strength score and proficiency you swim in any armor just as well as anybody else without a swim speed.

Yes, those are the rules?

[Tanarii]

I've run into players and DMs who felt dragging a wood raft that can hold 6 people through the Chult jungle was reasonable and doable by one person! Gah.

This made me laugh. 6 normal strength people would find this impossible. No checks needed, just cannot be done.

[Telok]

This made me laugh. 6 normal strength people would find this impossible. No checks needed, just cannot be done.

Depends on the craft. A strip wood canoe that can carry two adults, a child, and a week worth of camping gear is about 60 lbs. With a proper yoke at the center a single adult can carry it a couple miles, balanced on their shoulders. Of course that's not including gear or armor.

A 20 strength hero dragging a 25ish foot canoe? Probably. Carrying a 500 lb flat boat? Never.

[Tanarii]

Depends on the craft.

I cut down his post too much. He was talking about a raft made out of logs. "Raft size logs".

I was imagining something a bit bigger than 4" diameter saplings myself. More like 9-10" diameter logs.

[ZorroGames]

Hero stats seem like SOF types to me and having seen the videos of teams of SOF types in PT using logs for “exercise” I can see short portages in a group but solo carry through Chult? I have my doubts.

SOF = Special Operations Forces like ParaRescue, SEALS, etc., types.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yes, those are the rules?

Yeah.

Swimming is done at half speed unless you have a swim speed.
A check is needed if the water is rough or something like that(Athletics) but it is ultimately needed only if the dm says so.

If you don’t have proficiency in armor you have disadvantage on all ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls with strength and dexterity . (Which Athletics would be).

Even if you have proficiency in heavy armor if you don’t have the requisite strength for heavy armor, you speed is reduced by 10 when you wear it.


You can find these rules in the equipment section when it talks about armor and under the travel and movement rules where it talks about swimming.

[Unoriginal]

I think the canoes they sell in Chult, for 5 persons, are 120lbs.