Warder/Magus???

[nmitchell2]

I'm looking at making an intelligent tank, someone who controls the battlefield by being the smartest one there. By investing in Int and being (at least partially) a spellcaster, I will also be capable in out of combat situations. I was looking at the Zweihander Sentinel archetype of Warder and probably vanilla Magus, wielding a weapon that can be used in one or two hands as appropriate, though I'm open to suggestions about archetypes for either class. I was thinking that being able to stack defensive buffs with Spell Combat and/or having Rimed Frostbite charges to burn during Defensive Focus would be a great addition to the abilities already available to the Warder. However, I have no idea how to get the balance right between Warder and Magus, when to jump out of Warder to get the benefits of Magus etc. My initial thoughts are to get Medium Armour from Magus so I can wear Mithril Full Plate with no ASF, which allows me to go far enough into Warder to get Stalwart, but other peoples opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[upho]

I'm looking at making an intelligent tank, someone who controls the battlefield by being the smartest one there. By investing in Int and being (at least partially) a spellcaster, I will also be capable in out of combat situations. I was looking at the Zweihander Sentinel archetype of Warder and probably vanilla Magus, wielding a weapon that can be used in one or two hands as appropriate, though I'm open to suggestions about archetypes for either class. I was thinking that being able to stack defensive buffs with Spell Combat and/or having Rimed Frostbite charges to burn during Defensive Focus would be a great addition to the abilities already available to the Warder. However, I have no idea how to get the balance right between Warder and Magus, when to jump out of Warder to get the benefits of Magus etc. My initial thoughts are to get Medium Armour from Magus so I can wear Mithril Full Plate with no ASF, which allows me to go far enough into Warder to get Stalwart, but other peoples opinions would be greatly appreciated.

First off, I believe this class combo can be made to work great, and it should be very interesting and fun with a melee control defender focus.

However, there are of course a couple of hurdles to deal with in order to make such a build really sing and to maintain its usefulness beyond early levels. The first and likely far most important such hurdle being the slowed progression of your spell casting and maneuver initiation (along with CL and IL). Both max maneuver level and maneuver swaps are dependent on IL, which advances also when you take magus levels, so the maneuver side could at least remain useful if you focus on the most versatile counters and stances while avoiding anything with save DCs. But since your casting progression doesn't have anything resembling this luxury, it's going to suffer as soon as you take levels in another class. So if you'd like to get more than a few lower level buffs and/or spellstrikes a few times per day, I wouldn't recommend more than maybe a maximum of four warder levels, and no more than two before 11th level.

I think the obvious solution is to enter the Bladecaster PrC as soon as possible, minimizing levels without casting or full initiation progression. The BC's signature abilities also go very well with those of the magus; for example, Battlecaster’s Strike allows you to cast as a swift and use spellstrike with martial strikes 1 + Int mod times/day. Aside from at least two lost levels of magus casting progression, the downside of taking BC levels is of course that you'll delay/lose magus and warder class features other than casting and initiation, and most of the BC's features are likely going to feel a bit lacking in comparison. On top of this, the feats required to enter the BC (Combat Casting and Improved Counterspell) would be far better spent on stuff improving your control power. But the fact remains that the BC is the only truly viable solution if you like to maintain and develop the versatility and power granted by both spells and maneuvers.

The above also means that if you want to maintain a decent casting progression, the Zweihander Sentinel won't give you much, regardless of whether you decide to focus on magus levels or go for the BC. This is of course because ZS's first really useful feature for a melee control magus is Defensive Reach at 6th, which would be far too late in this case. And if you won't take more than a couple of warder levels anyways, I'd really recommend the Fiendbound Marauder archetype instead. Already at 1st level, the FM grants you a one-handed reach weapon which threatens adjacent, has the grab ability and counts as both manufactured and natural (great item/spell/feat boosting potential at discount price). It also gains the ability to curse with Armiger's Mark, along with access to Black Seraph, Cursed Razor, and Eternal Guardian, the latter two containing some very powerful control/debuff maneuvers. On the whole, Black Seraph is typically of less use for most PCs on with its many [evil] maneuvers, but has some very nifty and suitable early level stuff if you'd like to be able to have the monsters pee their proverbial pants. You do lose access to Golden Lion, but that can of course be traded back with the Unorthodox Method trait (or by becoming a member of the Descendants of the Golden Council, if available in the game).

Of course, if you don't care that much about the lost casting progression since you're mostly planning on using your spells stepping up your game a bit in combat or gain some utility from time to time (like for example a bloodrager), there's not much reason to worry about any of the above. Though keep in mind that if this is the case, you'll likely want to compensate for the reduced control power caused by a diminished casting, which means you're going to need to focus much harder on stuff like combat maneuvers and demoralization.

Hope this gave you some insight into the problems with a magus/warder build and some possible solutions. I'd be happy to help you out with a more detailed build outline once you've digested the above, if you're interested.

Here are a few examples of melee control/debuff builds I've made - two of them including the FM archetype - which might give you some tips and/or inspiration:
Eddie Pincerhand (detailed FM based grappling and demoralizing defender build for Elricaltovilla's warder guide)
Awakened Trip-Killer Sentinel (basic ZS/psion/Awakened Blade damage AoO build outline also for Elricaltovilla's warder guide)
True Terror Troll (outline of silly OP demoralization build for Elricaltovilla's stalker guide)
Nelly Nephilim (very detailed melee control defender build including a level of FM, for Castilonium's zealot guide) - build details here, basic combos and simplified opening combat round explained here

[Azoth]

Could always do a Warder/Mage Hunter/Bladecaster build. Could probably splash in a Harbinger dip as well and be fully serviceable.

It won't play the same, but should have a similar feel to it.

[nmitchell2]

Of course, if you don't care that much about the lost casting progression since you're mostly planning on using your spells stepping up your game a bit in combat or gain some utility from time to time (like for example a bloodrager), there's not much reason to worry about any of the above. Though keep in mind that if this is the case, you'll likely want to compensate for the reduced control power caused by a diminished casting, which means you're going to need to focus much harder on stuff like combat maneuvers and demoralization.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a long and detailed reply! This is the bit that's relevant to me, I want to focus on using my spells to enhance my Warder abilities without losing too much action economy, hence Magus. I want to primarily be in melee and will (hopefully if the group stays together that long) be playing this character through levels 1-15. The campaign will be homebrew and the DM is keeping his cards very close to his chest regarding what to expect so the majority of the group are wanting to play full spellcasters, I want to bring something different to the table that's interesting and useful. It's been a long time since I played a dedicated tank in any game, it should keep me hooked.

[Cyphrus]

Offhanded suggestion, but rather than going Bladecaster, look into Mage Hunter, it's just me interpreting this, but it mentions the spells being of magus spell list, so, maybe they work on spell combat/strike? Take something akin to ZS Warder 4/Magus 2, then going as far as you want in Mage Hunter.

Maybe sprinkle in blade caster for the final levels? You get the medium armor casting at level 8 in Mage hunter, so mithril fullplate might be doable.

[Domar]

Don't forget the Practiced Initiator trait will let you take upto four levels in non initiator classes while maintaining full initiator level.

[dude123nice]

Offhanded suggestion, but rather than going Bladecaster, look into Mage Hunter, it's just me interpreting this, but it mentions the spells being of magus spell list, so, maybe they work on spell combat/strike? Take something akin to ZS Warder 4/Magus 2, then going as far as you want in Mage Hunter.

Maybe sprinkle in blade caster for the final levels? You get the medium armor casting at level 8 in Mage hunter, so mithril fullplate might be doable.

I would say that getting two different spellcasting progressions is highly redundant and that the Bladecaster class does more to help the build than mage hunter does.

Regarding the original question, I think that the best build would be Warder 1, Magus 4 or 5 and then Bladecster 9 or 10, then more Magus levels(if you reach that point). Also i think Scarlet Throne Style allows you to get all the normal benefits of wielding a weapon two handed even if you are actually wielding it in one hand. You don't need to worry about taking a Harbinger because Bladecaster gives you the ability to get insight bonuses to everything you will want with Stance of Arcane Steel, but this works best IF you can get your higher spell slots at an adequate pace and if you can get enough Bladecaster levels. So you should prioritize loosing as few caster levels as possible. If you find yourself running low on spells because you are using it to much, try to get your hands on a ring of wizardry.

[Domar]

Magus 4 / Warder (Fiendbound Marauder) 1 / Bladecaster 10 is what I recommend.
Grab Practiced Initiator and Magical Knack for your traits.
Compared to Magus 15 your 1 caster level and one spell level down, but you still have room to grab 6th level spells.
Compared to Warder 15 you lose 2 readied maneuvers and 3 maneuvers known, but the missing maneuvers are your lowest level ones. You know just as many maneuvers of 4th level up and start with more 3rd level.

[Ellrin]

I know we're pretty clearly leaning towards a classic sword and spell gish at this point, but when I first read the original post yesterday, the first thing that came to my mind for a tanky melee battlefield controller whose primary stat is Intelligence and uses martial disciplines was a Polymath Investigator. So I'm going to go into the spiel I didn't have time to type up yesterday and then you can ignore me.

You've got a wide variety of buffs available through the alchemist extract list, and by mid levels can arguably buff yourself more in a single round than almost any other dedicated melee combatant, through the use of Combine Extracts/Admixture Vials and Poisoner's Gloves. You can effectively "cast" 4 "spells" on yourself in a single round this way, and possibly more if you have some way of summoning further pairs of gloves as already equipped once you get extra arms.

And you will be getting extra arms. You have access to the full Monstrous Physique line of spells, meaning you can become 4-armed gargoyles, calikangs, and eventually even gegenees, all of which have 6 natural attacks with 10' or even 15' reach to add on to your normal attack routine. Add in some traditional BFC weapons and feats such as Multiweapon Fighting or Multiattack and you're well on your way to presenting a major challenge for anyone trying to move anywhere close to your vicinity.

(Choose a race with at least one natural attack if your DM doesn't want to let you grab those feats as a more typical humanoid, or look into the Spirit Oni Master feat for an easy to obtain, if alignment-restricted, natural attack for any race.)

For even more reach (thereby making you even harder to ignore), throw Fluid Form into your buffing routine for another +10' reach and DR 10/slashing.

Add on top of all that the Polymath template for 2/3 initiating, full initiator level, and three disciplines (steel serpent and solar wind don't really fit the six-armed hulk we're aiming for with this build, but primal fury can give you some truly absurd attacks per round, and the other disciplines can be traded for tankier ones like Eternal Guardian or more arcane ones like Elemental Flux via traits), and you're well on your way to being the swirling dervish in the middle of the battlefield that nobody can ignore because you can trip everyone from 25' away, have 50' speed, and you can essentially pounce. And with 6+Int skill points per level and Int as the primary stat for both your extracts and initiating, you've got plenty of skill points to take literally every knowledge skill you could possibly want, meaning you know every enemy inside and out, and you can always direct your party on which save to target or what energy they're vulnerable to.

You are the smartest, meanest bastard on the field and between melee control, infusions, and maneuvers nobody can get anywhere close to you without being shut down in some way or another, and nobody can get anywhere close to the rest of your party without getting close to you.

Okay, that's my investigator rant done, everyone can go back to talking about warders and maguses.

[Azoth]

I would say that getting two different spellcasting progressions is highly redundant and that the Bladecaster class does more to help the build than mage hunter does.

Bladecaster would be used to progress Magehunter casting.

So if the game ended at 15 like assumed. Zweihander Sentinel Warder6/MageHunter2/Bladecaster7 would be doable.

It would net 5th level spells and 8th level manuevers. Not saying it is the best build, but it would function.

[dude123nice]

Bladecaster would be used to progress Magehunter casting.

So if the game ended at 15 like assumed. Zweihander Sentinel Warder6/MageHunter2/Bladecaster7 would be doable.

It would net 5th level spells and 8th level manuevers. Not saying it is the best build, but it would function.

I wasn't quoting or answerimg to your post.

[Cyphrus]

As to that build I suggested before, It's focused primarily for getting into mage hunter, since it's Initiator level and Caster level are tied together. The magus levels were just specifically suggested to grant you access to spell combat and strike, other than that, you completely ignore the magus.

So, an example build of ZS Warder4/Magus 2/Mage hunter 10, at level 16, BAB +12, would have an IL/CL of 15, the ability to spell and sword on those Mage Hunter list. In addition seventh level maneuvers.

Sounds pretty promising for an armored gish to me. Just progress mage hunter's casting with a bit of Bladecaster and you should be fine.

[dude123nice]

As to that build I suggested before, It's focused primarily for getting into mage hunter, since it's Initiator level and Caster level are tied together. The magus levels were just specifically suggested to grant you access to spell combat and strike, other than that, you completely ignore the magus.

So, an example build of ZS Warder4/Magus 2/Mage hunter 10, at level 16, BAB +12, would have an IL/CL of 15, the ability to spell and sword on those Mage Hunter list. In addition seventh level maneuvers.

Sounds pretty promising for an armored gish to me. Just progress mage hunter's casting with a bit of Bladecaster and you should be fine.

But WHY mage hunter and magus? Mage hunter already gets an ability almost like Spell Combat, namely Stance of the Mage Killer. It is a class that you are supposed to enter from a full Maneuver progression class. What you end up with your combo is sub par BAB and hit points, an spell progression track that is useless and sub par caster level for both classes. It also doesn't seem to contribute much to the original idea of an intelligent tank, since most of the mage hunter's abilities pretty much fit the theme described by the class's name.

And most important of all, according to errata found here: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz your idea doesn't work:

The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

[exelsisxax]

As to that build I suggested before, It's focused primarily for getting into mage hunter, since it's Initiator level and Caster level are tied together. The magus levels were just specifically suggested to grant you access to spell combat and strike, other than that, you completely ignore the magus.

So, an example build of ZS Warder4/Magus 2/Mage hunter 10, at level 16, BAB +12, would have an IL/CL of 15, the ability to spell and sword on those Mage Hunter list. In addition seventh level maneuvers.

Sounds pretty promising for an armored gish to me. Just progress mage hunter's casting with a bit of Bladecaster and you should be fine.

You can't spell combat with 2-handed weapons, nor does magehunter progress magus spellcasting or allow you to spellstrike. That is not a good build.

edit: stalker'd

[Cyphrus]

I guess somewhere in the FAQ, it's defeating my suggested build, I was just going off the SRD. My thought process is that of the mage hunter's spells being from the magus spell list, they might be made use of on spell strike and combat.

Spell Combat (Ex)

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Spellstrike (Su)

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Spells per Day

A mage hunter has the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells learned through his training and his advancement and growth through the martial medium of his training. To cast a mage hunter spell, he must have a primary initiator attribute score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so if he has a primary initiator attribute of 10 or lower, cannot cast these spells. Bonus spells are based on primary initiator attribute, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + his primary initiator attribute modifier. He has access to any spell on the magus spell list. He casts spells just as a sorcerer does, including the ability to replace a known mage hunter spell with a new spell at every even-numbered class level beginning at 4th level. 0th level spells, or cantrips, may be cast unlimitedly from his spells known. Mage hunters use their initiator level to determine their caster level for their mage hunter spells. If the character qualified for this class using Martial Training feats, then his spellcasting is considered Intelligence-based.

I might of just been misinterpreting. If so, I concede. I just thought it'd fill the niche of a moderately armored martial/caster.

Edit: ...I never mentioned anything about a two-handed weapon...

[exelsisxax]

zweihander is worthless if you aren't 2-handing a weapon. The first time it gains a class feature is level 12 - ZS 4 means you're a warder with no shield prof that downgrades your broken blade to scarlet throne.

[upho]

Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a long and detailed reply! This is the bit that's relevant to me, I want to focus on using my spells to enhance my Warder abilities without losing too much action economy, hence Magus.

OK. Hmm... How set are you on the magus?

The reason I'm asking is that if you don't intend to go "true" gish and cast plenty of control/debuff spells during combat, I don't see the point in taking magus levels. That is, I think there are far more suitable (and fun!) options if you intend to use magic primarily to buff yourself to enhance your martial control/defender combat prowess, rather than as a set of offensive debuff/control tools (like the spellstrike rime frostbite you mentioned in the OP). This is especially true if your game also allows most DSP content other than PoW. Does it?

If so, you'd most likely be much better off with a bit of psionic manifesting instead of arcane casting. While psionic powers in general don't include quite as strong (read: OP) options as arcane spells do, they do include some far superior self-buffs for a melee control build. The most interesting of these powers can also be be pimped out with augments/feats/items for very long durations or reduced manifesting times, making them ideal for combat use, especially when combined with martial maneuvers. (Examples include banshee’s hearing, the awesome psychic reformation, and of course the indisputable kings of melee control and martial combat versatility buffs; the metamorphosis line.)

In addition, the only class with native access to all of these powers is the psion (egoist), which not only grants a faster manifesting progression and more power points than any other class, but is also Int-based and ideal to combine with a warder. And on top of this, the amazing Awakened Blade PrC which advances both psionic manifestation and maneuver initiation, has very powerful additional class features, especially for a melee control defender. By that, I mean that this PrC can make you one of the strongest - if not the strongest - and most versatile combatants possible in the entire game, potentially to the point that you could reliably take several enemies of a CR way above your level out of the fight each round (for a high level OP example of this, see the second link for "Nelly Nephilim" in my first post). So in contrast to taking levels in the Bladecaster, I find it highly unlikely that you'll miss any lost warder levels should you decide to trade them for levels in the AB. But it's also worth noting that you may need to be careful so as to not make such an "awakened supertank" too powerful for your game and party, though I also believe this is highly unlikely to become an issue if a majority of the other PCs are at least decently well played and built full casters.

I want to primarily be in melee and will (hopefully if the group stays together that long) be playing this character through levels 1-15. The campaign will be homebrew and the DM is keeping his cards very close to his chest regarding what to expect so the majority of the group are wanting to play full spellcasters, I want to bring something different to the table that's interesting and useful. It's been a long time since I played a dedicated tank in any game, it should keep me hooked.

Well, I think these are arguably even stronger reasons for going with a psionic supertank. You'll definitely "bring something different to the table that's interesting and useful". And at least AFAICT, very few groups have ever seen any kind of truly effective melee combat style which doesn't rely on damage in action, much less a proper melee control defender. So you can probably expect to see some wide-eyed stares and gaping mouths when your supertank starts controlling more real estate than Queen Elizabeth II*, potentially making enemies who dare cross your borders utterly useless and taking them out of the fight before they've taken more than a few scratches...
*That would be more than 6 billion acres IIRC, so OK, I confess I may have included a hint of hyperbole there...

If your game doesn't allow psionics, there are other strong options. (And if your GM/group is hesitant about including psionics for balance reasons, let them know they've got nothing to worry about in a game with full casters.)

Regarding the original question, I think that the best build would be Warder 1, Magus 4 or 5 and then Bladecster 9 or 10, then more Magus levels(if you reach that point). Also i think Scarlet Throne Style allows you to get all the normal benefits of wielding a weapon two handed even if you are actually wielding it in one hand.

Yeah, if arcane spells are intended to provide the primary control power, I agree. But I don't think Scarlet Throne is particularly suitable for this kind of build though, as it's very damage oriented and doesn't offer much in terms of control power or action economy boosts. I'd say Eternal Guardian followed by Fool's Errand and Riven Hourglass are the top three disciplines.

I know we're pretty clearly leaning towards a classic sword and spell gish at this point, but when I first read the original post yesterday, the first thing that came to my mind for a tanky melee battlefield controller whose primary stat is Intelligence and uses martial disciplines was a Polymath Investigator.
/snip/
You can effectively "cast" 4 "spells" on yourself in a single round this way
/snip/
...Monstrous Physique... /snip/ ...6 natural attacks with 10' or even 15' reach to add on to your normal attack routine. Add in some traditional BFC weapons and feats such as Multiweapon Fighting or Multiattack and you're well on your way to presenting a major challenge for anyone trying to move anywhere close to your vicinity.
/snip/
For even more reach (thereby making you even harder to ignore), throw Fluid Form into your buffing routine for another +10' reach and DR 10/slashing.
/snip/
...the six-armed hulk we're aiming for with this build, but primal fury can give you some truly absurd attacks per round... /snip/ ...more arcane ones like Elemental Flux via traits...
/snip/
...being the swirling dervish in the middle of the battlefield that nobody can ignore because you can trip everyone from 25' away, have 50' speed, and you can essentially pounce.

Honestly, I think these are great pointers for a more classic "buff 'n' bash monster mower", adding a bit of control and a generous slice of combat versatility while further improving a good damage dealer chassis. But for a dedicated melee control defender build this is simply not nearly good enough AFAICT. Especially actual control/debuff effects (you still need to reduce enemies to below 0 hp in order to take them out of the fight, and trip comes with plenty of issues in especially later levels), reach (you can do a lot better than 10', 15' and maybe 25'-35' in higher levels), and arguably also BAB lags too far behind. In addition, this build also lacks any abilities compensating for the warder's native defender mechanics (notably mark and defensive focus).

So as far as I can conclude from the above, when it comes to melee control specifically, I'm not seeing how this kind of polymath build would even match a relatively basic human primalist bloodrager with the aberrant bloodline using only Paizo options. (Though it would certainly be a much more effective damage dealer and a lot more versatile overall than the bloodrager, aside from actually being Int-based.)

[nmitchell2]

OK. Hmm... How set are you on the magus?

The reason I'm asking is that if you don't intend to go "true" gish and cast plenty of control/debuff spells during combat, I don't see the point in taking magus levels. That is, I think there are far more suitable (and fun!) options if you intend to use magic primarily to buff yourself to enhance your martial control/defender combat prowess, rather than as a set of offensive debuff/control tools (like the spellstrike rime frostbite you mentioned in the OP). This is especially true if your game also allows most DSP content other than PoW. Does it?

If so, you'd most likely be much better off with a bit of psionic manifesting instead of arcane casting. While psionic powers in general don't include quite as strong (read: OP) options as arcane spells do, they do include some far superior self-buffs for a melee control build. The most interesting of these powers can also be be pimped out with augments/feats/items for very long durations or reduced manifesting times, making them ideal for combat use, especially when combined with martial maneuvers. (Examples include banshee’s hearing, the awesome psychic reformation, and of course the indisputable kings of melee control and martial combat versatility buffs; the metamorphosis line.)

In addition, the only class with native access to all of these powers is the psion (egoist), which not only grants a faster manifesting progression and more power points than any other class, but is also Int-based and ideal to combine with a warder. And on top of this, the amazing Awakened Blade PrC which advances both psionic manifestation and maneuver initiation, has very powerful additional class features, especially for a melee control defender. By that, I mean that this PrC can make you one of the strongest - if not the strongest - and most versatile combatants possible in the entire game, potentially to the point that you could reliably take several enemies of a CR way above your level out of the fight each round (for a high level OP example of this, see the second link for "Nelly Nephilim" in my first post). So in contrast to taking levels in the Bladecaster, I find it highly unlikely that you'll miss any lost warder levels should you decide to trade them for levels in the AB. But it's also worth noting that you may need to be careful so as to not make such an "awakened supertank" too powerful for your game and party, though I also believe this is highly unlikely to become an issue if a majority of the other PCs are at least decently well played and built full casters.

Well, I think these are arguably even stronger reasons for going with a psionic supertank. You'll definitely "bring something different to the table that's interesting and useful". And at least AFAICT, very few groups have ever seen any kind of truly effective melee combat style which doesn't rely on damage in action, much less a proper melee control defender. So you can probably expect to see some wide-eyed stares and gaping mouths when your supertank starts controlling more real estate than Queen Elizabeth II*, potentially making enemies who dare cross your borders utterly useless and taking them out of the fight before they've taken more than a few scratches...
*That would be more than 6 billion acres IIRC, so OK, I confess I may have included a hint of hyperbole there...

If your game doesn't allow psionics, there are other strong options. (And if your GM/group is hesitant about including psionics for balance reasons, let them know they've got nothing to worry about in a game with full casters.)

I'm not dead set on being a Magus. My original idea was to play a Dex-based Kensai who uses a Whip to threaten up to 15ft away by level 7 but I wasn't satisfied with it so I started looking for other options to tank and found the Warder. The more I looked into Warder, the more I wanted to play one. I like action economy and the versatility that spellcasting brings both in and out of combat and thought that if I could balance the scales right I could get the best bits out of both classes into one build. I would be interested to look into anything that brings those things without sacrificing the best bits of Warder. I am impressed by the Psion and the Awakened Blade PrC you linked, especially the Transmogrifist discipline. Any chance you could advise me on a potential build path? I haven't played any PoW or PU classes before, I only know what I have read.

As for the power levels, this DM has TPKed gestalt parties on numerous occasions so I'm not worried about that. He doesn't like summoning because it slows combat down but he loves and rewards both teamwork and creativity. When I asked him about psionics, he told me he has played with a Psion before so he is familiar with the class but he isn't familiar with the Transmogrifist discipline. When I told him I wanted to multiclass with Warder he looked surprised but he told me he is interested to see the final result.

[dude123nice]

But I don't think Scarlet Throne is particularly suitable for this kind of build though, as it's very damage oriented and doesn't offer much in terms of control power or action economy boosts. I'd say Eternal Guardian followed by Fool's Errand and Riven Hourglass are the top three disciplines.

You misunderstand, I meant the Scarlet Throne Style feat that gives you the ability to treat one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons for the purposes of class features and feats.

[upho]

The more I looked into Warder, the more I wanted to play one. I like action economy and the versatility that spellcasting brings both in and out of combat and thought that if I could balance the scales right I could get the best bits out of both classes into one build. I would be interested to look into anything that brings those things without sacrificing the best bits of Warder.

If adding these wishes to the one about being an "intelligent tank, someone who controls the battlefield", I believe a warder/psion/AB is going to be able to deliver in spades.

I am impressed by the Psion and the Awakened Blade PrC you linked, especially the Transmogrifist discipline. Any chance you could advise me on a potential build path?

Certainly, but before I can get into the details, I'd like to go through a little baseline stuff and ask a few questions. First off, I believe there are a few key options you'll probably want more than others, some of them likely as early as possible. This prioritized stuff effectively set up a sort of rough framework with check points for the build outline, for example (not in order of importance):

1. Initiator class/archetype level as soon as possible Maneuvers will help boost your combat power and versatility more than anything else will, so you want to take your first level in a maneuver granting class/archetype as soon as possible.
2. AB entry at 6th Most likely no other class will give you as much as the AB, so you'll want to meet the prereqs as early as possible. Most importantly, this means you want Psionic Body and Psionic Meditation no later than 5th.
3. (Minor) metamorphosis as soon as possible The minor 1st level version is great all by itself, being basically a superior enlarge person. But it's hard to overstate how much more awesome the 3rd level power is for you. And greater than any of the many other advantages it has in comparison to it's younger sibling or any spells, is the fact it allows you and your equipment to grow up to two size categories, vastly increasing your combat prowess.
4. Main melee control options This is your primary melee control tool, the preferably constantly available and applicable mechanics that define your fighting style (such as combat maneuver(s), demoralization etc). Effective melee control is typically resource intensive, especially in terms of feats, so you'll likely enjoy every bonus feat and every bab increase you can get, as soon as possible.
5. Attack bonus and CMB Basically every single offensive combat mechanic at your disposal will be dependent on you being able to hit your target with melee attacks (full attacks, strikes, AoOs, combat maneuvers, etc). This means you simply cannot afford your total hit chance to start lagging behind at any level. Though the minimum value for this is of course highly game dependent, I think a decent benchmark is that you should maintain at least a 75% hit chance with your highest bab attack against the "average" AC of a monster with a CR equal to your level, and maybe higher in mid/late levels (see spoiler below for details).

Does this seem reasonable to you, or would you like to add/remove something?

Spoiler: 75% Hit Chance Benchmark in Detail

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For example, a 1st level PC of a full bab class without native accuracy boosts would need to start with Str 18 and say Weapon Focus in order to have a 75% hit chance vs the "average" AC 12 of a CR 1 monster. At 6th level, the same guy would also need for example a +1 weapon and a +2 Str belt - quite significant investments at this level - to still have a 75% hit chance vs the average AC 19 of a CR 6 foe. But at 11th, he could get away with buying for example a dirt cheap cracked Pale Green Prism ioun for 4k to maintain his relative hit chance, even though his Strength score remains 20 and he doesn't gain any other new boost beyond his increased bab. And likewise at 16th level, he would only need to add another +1 - which he most likely can get for mere pocket change at this level - in order to still have a 75% hit chance vs the average AC 31 of a CR 16 monster.

This general development of decreasing relative costs to maintain relative hit chance is of course often more or less noticeable in reality, as bonuses from class features, feats and temporary accuracy buffs (spells, maneuvers etc) also tend to become increasingly significant, numerous and frequent, while penalties can also become so (Power Attack, size increases, etc). In addition, my "75% hit chance benchmark" refers to the actual typical hit chance when the character is in combat, including any temporary buffs that can be expected to be in effect during a large majority of combat rounds. So for example, in most combats in many games/parties, I can expect an arcane caster to hit my martial character with haste as soon as they're able to. Meaning I usually include the +1 from haste when calculating my expected typical minimum hit chance from 7th level or so. And I do the same from 1st level when it comes to stuff like an allied bard's Inspire Courage, an allied skald's Raging Song, and any bonuses from a stance I'm likely to use by default etc. Likewise, if I'm relying more on hitting with my iterative attacks and/or Power Attack, I adjust the benchmark accordingly.

The same benchmark applies for a character primarily relying on combat maneuvers, but is of course instead a CMB with a 75% success probability, measured against the significantly higher average monster CMD values. Although maintaining this benchmark is often more resource demanding and doing so doesn't help against hard caps (size) or other immunity (trip against flying), the success probability of a prioritized combat maneuver can however often be pushed higher than regular hit probability can, as there are plenty of additional build options which specifically boost the CMB of one or several combat maneuvers. (Some such build options can boost CMB very significantly, like for example of a +5 dueling (PSFG/psionic) leveraging furious weapon granting a whopping total of +42 to a raging wielder's reposition and trip CMB...)

Second, generally speaking, there are two main build paths; one leaning towards the psion/psionic side which emphasizes versatility and early level access to combat boost powers, and the other leaning towards the warder/martial side which emphasizes melee prowess and earlier access to especially key combat feats. Both have their respective pros and cons IMO:

Initiator 0-1/Psion 3-4/Warder 1-2
Pros: Greater and earlier psionic power for improved versatility, Transmogrifist bonus with Student's Robe, metamorphosis at 7th or 8th
Cons: Slower bab gives later combat feat access and less combat reliability, slightly lower Fort save

Initiator(s) 0-2/Psion 1/Warder 2-4
Pros: Faster bab for earlier combat feat and combo access and greater reliability, additional useful warder (or other initiator) class features such as Tactical Acumen/Canny Pugilist, slightly higher Fort save
Cons: Lesser and delayed psionic power gives less overall versatility, metamorphosis at 10th

Overall, the more psionic first outline is probably slightly stronger overall due to greater versatility, but it delays combat prowess, is less combat focused and feels less "martial". I'd say the choice is mostly a matter of taste though, as either variant can be made formidable melee control defenders and excellent adventurers in general IME.

Let me know what you find the most interesting.

As for the power levels, this DM has TPKed gestalt parties on numerous occasions so I'm not worried about that. He doesn't like summoning because it slows combat down but he loves and rewards both teamwork and creativity. When I asked him about psionics, he told me he has played with a Psion before so he is familiar with the class but he isn't familiar with the Transmogrifist discipline. When I told him I wanted to multiclass with Warder he looked surprised but he told me he is interested to see the final result.

Heh, he's probably in for a nice surprise... Regardless, this sounds great, as it seems you at least won't have to worry much about becoming OP, and at least in terms of mechanics the build should be exactly what he likes; creative with a role and related abilities focusing on teamwork.

Regarding the transmogrifist, keep in mind that you'll need at least 3 psion levels in order to benefit from it, as it replaces the 8th level discipline ability (possible if combined with the above mentioned Student's Robes). This may come into conflict with your wish for warder class features unless you're prepared to further delay AB entry (not recommended from a pure optimization perspective).

Finally, I'd like you to take a second look at for example Eddie Pincerhand, especially his basic defense/offense combat values and his default combat shenanigans detailed in the "Combined Mechanics" spoiler. Then let me know whether you think a 13th level PC of roughly equal power would be horribly broken, slightly OP or maybe too weak for your game. Easier for us to ensure we're on roughly on the same level with regards to the mechanical power you're aiming for here.

Once you've thought things through and replied to these three questions, I'll be happy to help you out with a more detailed outline.

[upho]

You misunderstand, I meant the Scarlet Throne Style feat that gives you the ability to treat one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons for the purposes of class features and feats.

Ooops! Bad at reading it appears I am. Better at writing like speech of little green master space magus me be... How embarrassing!

Sorry 'bout that.

Anyhow, you're absolutely right. ST Style might even be considered vital if you're looking to make the magus and the ZS work together without glitches. Hmm... Never crossed my mind to explore if a build can take full advantage of that, come to think of it. Might enable some pretty interesting shield fighting spellstrike stunts... Thanks!

[Domar]

[*]Initiator class/archetype level as soon as possible Maneuvers will help boost your combat power and versatility more than anything else will, so you want to take your first level in a maneuver granting class/archetype as soon as possible.

This results in much weaker maneuvers. Psion 4 / Warder 1 skips first level maneuvers, starting with five second and third level maneuvers and a third level stance.

[upho]

This results in much weaker maneuvers. Psion 4 / Warder 1 skips first level maneuvers, starting with five second and third level maneuvers and a third level stance.

I believe you'd be absolutely correct if the choice was solely between warder levels and psion levels for some weird reason, or if the game started at 5th level or later. But first, there are thankfully plenty of other classes which can provide a maneuver progression along with other potentially very useful or even vital benefits. Second, additional warder levels before you enter the AB can very well be more valuable than starting with 3rd level maneuvers at 5th. Third, maximizing psion levels may not be the most fitting or optimal choice to begin with. And fourth, if you're aiming to be a melee control defender in a real game from 1st level, you probably want to avoid playing the first four levels as a straight psion, as by itself the class isn't exactly ideal for the job, and even less so during the earliest levels considering the related general durability issues. This is of course even more true in a party largely consisting of even more squishy full casters, which seems to be the case here...

Note also that one of the important reasons I made the list you quoted from was to illustrate the competing priorities, which in the case of general build order is also further reflected in the fact that I mention the very same build order you are, in the same post you quoted:

Initiator 0-1/Psion 3-4/Warder 1-2

From a TO perspective it may perhaps at least seem almost a certainty a psion 4/warder 1 build order is always the strongest, but that's of course nowhere near as clear cut in all real game cases.


(As a somewhat interesting sidenote, from a high TO combat power perspective, I believe 4 levels of psion is most likely not going to give the strongest start or the strongest build overall. Seems one of the most absolute of the old 3.5/Paizo PF truths isn't quite as true in high-op DSP games. I mean, melee can be made to blow most casters completely out of the water in terms of straight up combat prowess, pretty much regardless of armies of undead and solars...)

[nmitchell2]

Initiator(s) 0-2/Psion 1/Warder 2-4

This is the one that interests me the most. The additional melee prowess and early game viability is more attractive to me in these circumstances. I must say that I'm really impressed with Awakened Blade, the more I look at it the more I want to play it. I might surprise the DM when I prestige class, see if he will play it blind and watch the carnage unfold.

[exelsisxax]

This is the one that interests me the most. The additional melee prowess and early game viability is more attractive to me in these circumstances. I must say that I'm really impressed with Awakened Blade, the more I look at it the more I want to play it. I might surprise the DM when I prestige class, see if he will play it blind and watch the carnage unfold.

How important are the powers to your build? Because you can enter AB with straight up Nightmare(initiator Dread) or Pathwalker(initiator psywar), both of which are far, far superior to psion at levels 1-2 and 4. You're trading 9th powers progression and no combat baseline for 6th powers and a pretty damn sweet combat baseline. They're also objectively superior for taking advantage of AB, because both of them can combine initiating and manifesting in a single round without hustling/quickening powers, which AB doesn't itself provide. They have built-in synergy and action economy benefits you can't get any other way. Virtually the only thing you lose are a few power levels and a hefty number of known powers, but warder eats those from psion too.

If your DM is a nice guy, you might also be able to shenanigan your way to AB with a warsoul+gifted blade soulknife(not RAW legal, but wouldn't break the game) to give up even more powers for even more face-stabbing. Switching out warder for zealot gives you a different style of tanking, but would shore up your psionic side.

What are your priorities? I've missed it if you mentioned them previously, but there's a lot of ways to get to and abuse AB, but they don't accomplish most possible goals. You need to know what you want to do to get the most efficient path to it and leverage the most out of it.

[upho]

This is the one that interests me the most. The additional melee prowess and early game viability is more attractive to me in these circumstances.

Aight. Let's move on to build details then:

You want to be a Large size race able to wield weapons designed for your size, if possible. That means you most likely have to be an aasimar, tiefling, skinwalker or possibly forgeborn with a gamla or tiger catfolk parent or past. Thankfully, all of these are strong races, and have options which grant very suitable bonuses. Unlike the Paizo races, the forgeborn doesn't actually come with size rules, but if the other ones can be Large, it should be more than reasonable to allow Large forgeborn as well IMO. Ask your GM, as usual.

Spoiler: Rule of cool says tiger forgeborn should be a thing

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Aside from size, you'll of course want a bonus to Str and at least no penalties to Con, Int or Wis. So if you're not going with forgeborn, your best choices are Archon-Blooded aasimar with variant ability #9 for +2 Str, Oni-Spawn tiefling (perhaps with variant ability #46 for +2 Int) or Wereboar-Kin skinwalker.

When it comes to ability scores, your priorities are approximately (in order of highest to lowest): Str>>Int>Con>Wis>>>Dex>Cha.

And finally, a psionic supertank build outline!

Spoiler: Bob the Bowling Fiend - 15th Level Build Outline

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The following details a trip and dirty trick focused defender, in later levels using Ki Throw feats and Seize the Opportunity to hurl enemies into each other and seriously disable two of them from a single provoked AoO. Keep in mind that this is pretty high-op, and demands quite a lot in terms of specific magic items and GM permissions. The values below includes the suggested gear and assumes Bob is in the Lesson VI: Supremacy stance with Stance of the Thunderbrand, and is affected by animal affinity, banshee’s hearing (augment 4), metamorphosis (augment 2), and long arm.

This was kinda hastily done, so I may very well have accidentally included a few minor errors in the numbers and missed to explain some details. But the key mechanical combos all work.

BASICS
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1, Psion (Egoist) 1, Warder (Fiendbound Marauder) 3, Awakened Blade 10
LN Gargantuan outsider (native)

Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 30 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 6 enhancement (belt), 4 size (metamorphosis)
Dex 10 10 base, 4 enhancement (metamorphosis), -4 size (metamorphosis)
Con 18 14 base, 4 enhancement (animal affinity)
Int 22 15 base, 2 race, 1 level, 4 enhancement (headband)
Wis 16 12 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (headband)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race

Alternate Racial Trait Variant Ability #46 (+2 Int, replaces SLA, requires GM permission)
Traits Bruising Intellect, Practiced Initiator (Warder), Pragmatic Activator, Psionic Knack (Psion), Unorthodox Method (Piercing Thunder replaces Primal Fury),
Drawback Meticulous (–2 penalty on untrained skills)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass replaces Black Seraph, Lurker in Darkness as bonus feat)

Disciplines
Monk Eternal Guardian, Fool's Errand, Iron Tortoise
Warder Cursed Razor, Eternal Guardian, Fool's Errand, Piercing Thunder, Riven Hourglass
Awakened Blade Sleeping Goddess


LEVEL PROGRESSION

Level	Class	Features	Feats Bonus, Training weapon retrained@ lvl intoR	Suggested Maneuversdiscipline lvl and Powers	Comments
1	Monk 1	Gauntlet Strike, shielding fist	Additional Traits, Deflect ArrowsB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B	Iron ShellIT1C, Lesson II: ControlFE1, Lock StepFE1, Terrifying BlowEG1	You're Large PoW monk, which isn't bad.
2	Psion 1	Discipline (egoist), discipline talents	Improved MetamorphosisB	defensive precognition, detect psionics, minor metamorphosis, offensive precognition	Improved Metamorphosis can grant Improved Trip.
3	Warder 1	Defensive focus, fiend’s grip	Combat ReflexesB, Psionic Body	Fear the ReaperEG2, Flurry StrikeBB1, Hastened LeapPT2, Minute HandRH1B, Spilled SaltCR1C, Vigilant Keeper’s StanceEG1	Fiend's grips work with monk gauntlet abilities.
4	Warder 2	The dark mark	-	Thunderous FallPT2	Marks we like!
5	Warder 3	-	Dirty FightingB, Psionic Meditation	Time SkitterRH3	Time Skitter... Keep it always active outside of combat.
6	A. Blade 1	Situational awareness	Deep FocusB	Steel Flurry StrikeBB3	OP Broken Blade damage. But you only want the 3 attacks.
7	A. Blade 2	Stance of the inner eye, 2nd level psion manifesting	Ki Throw	Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4, chameleon, vigor	Put those you trip in a bad place.
8	A. Blade 3	Uncanny dodge, 3rd level psion manifesting	Greater TripT	Grasp of the GoddessSG3, animal affinity, share pain	AoO on successful trip.
9	A. Blade 4	4th level psion manifesting	Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty Trick	Shadow PinCR5 Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5, control sound, heartbinding	Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap...
10	A. Blade 5	Precognitive defense, 5th level psion manifesting	Seize the OpportunityT	Relativity BurstRH5C, banshee’s hearing, metamorphosis	...on AoOs! Which you can get tons of via trips.
11	A. Blade 6	Hypercognitive focus	Swift Shapeshifter	Overpowering OptimismSG6B, Stance 6th	Hulk-out more quickly. Useful.
12	A. Blade 7	Clairsentient counter, 6th level psion manifesting	Vicious StompT	Overpowering OptimismSG6B, fold space, psychic reformation	And another AoO on successful trip.
13	A. Blade 8	7th level psion manifesting	Dirty Trick Master, Improved Bull RushB	WoedrinkerCR7, fettering the shade, spiritual resting place	If you're able to trip 'em, they're OUT!
14	A. Blade 9	Improved uncanny dodge, 8th level psion manifesting	Improved Ki ThrowT	Beat the ClockRH7, augured answer, energy adaptation	Knock two foes prone and take them out with a single initial attack!
15	A. Blade 10	Pretercognitive mind, 9th level psion manifesting	Greater Bull Rush	Hammer of the ImmortalEG8 Lesson VI: SupremacyFE8, pierce the veils, psionic revivify	Stance of The Inner Eye with Lesson VI: Supremacy AND Stance of the Thunderbrand! NONE SHALL PASS!

EXAMPLE COMBAT VALUES
Initiative +6 (5 insight (Situational Awareness), 1 competence (dusty rose prism))
Senses blindsight 60' (vs creatures with heartbeat), darkvision 60'; Perception +26 (3 class, 3 wis, 15 ranks, 5 competence (Eyes of the Eagle))

Defense
AC 36, touch 18, flat-footed 26 (9 plate, 3 armor enhancement, 1 shield (shielding fist), 5 shield enhancement (psychic weapon), 2 deflection (ring), 5 dodge (Stance of the Thunderbrand, Time Skitter), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), -4 size
HP 159 (8 monk 1st level, 1d6 psion, 3d12 warder, 10d10 awakened blade, 15 x 4 con, 5 x 2 Psionic Body, 3 favored class)
Fort +21 (4 con, 2 monk, 3 warder, 3 awakened blade, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 pale blue rhomboid in wayfinder), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye)
Ref +15 (2 monk, 1 warder, 3 awakened blade, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 Time Skitter
Fort +23 (3 wis, 2 monk, 2 psion, 3 warder, 5 awakened blade, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))

Offense
Fiend's Grip Attack +31 (13 bab, 10 str, 1 Weapon Focus, 5 enhancement (psychic weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), -4 size)
Fiend's Grip Damage 4d6+20, +2d6 precision (10 str, 5 enhancement (psychic weapon), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2d6 precision (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Fiend's Grip Base CMB +39 (13 bab, 10 str, 1 Weapon Focus, 5 enhancement (psychic weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 5 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 4 size)
Bull Rush CMB +50 best of two rolls (39 base CMB, 4 Improved & Greater Bull Rush, 5 enhancement (leveraging weapon), 2 gauntlets, best of two rolls pauldrons)
Dirty Trick CMB +53 (39 base CMB, 4 Improved & Greater Dirty Trick, 10 luck (dueling (PSFG/psionic) weapon))
Trip CMB +69 (39 base CMB, 4 Improved & Greater Trip, 5 enhancement (leveraging weapon), 20 luck (dueling (PSFG/psionic) weapon))
(Guideline: the average CMD value of CR 15 monsters published by Paizo is 44, and the highest is 49.)

Space 20x20'; Reach 50', (70' using defensive focus) (20 Gargantuan size natural reach, 20 reach weapon (fiend's grip), 5 Stance of the Thunderbrand, 5 long arm, 20 defensive focus)

Psionic ML 11; Power Points 146/day (106 ML 11 psion, 33 Int, 7 Sleeping Goddess maneuvers)

Spoiler: Suggested Gear

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"Striker's Grip" 18,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, training (Greater Trip, Improved Ki Throw) (+2 cost))
"Vicious Grip" 18,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, training (Seize the Opportunity, Vicious Stomp) (+2 cost))
"Amulet of Mighty Maneuvering" 51,000 gp (dueling (PSFG/psionic) (+1 cost), leveraging (+1 cost), psychic (35,000 gp) amulet of mighty fists)
"Celestial Steelskin" 33,500 gp (celestial plate (25,000 gp), Large plate (1,500 gp), fusing (+1 cost = 7,000 gp)
+6 str belt 36,000 gp
+4 int/+2 wis headband 22,000 gp
+2 pauldrons of bull resistance 13,000 gp (+2 cloak of resistance (4,000 gp x 1.5) pauldrons of the bull (10,000 gp)
+2 ring of protection 8,000 gp
Giant fist gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (bull rush) 26,000 gp (giant fist gauntlets (20,000 gp), gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (4,000 gp x 1.5)
Eyes of the Eagle 2,500 gp
Cracked pale green prism (2) 8,000 gp
Cracked dusty rose prism 500 gp
Cracked pale blue rhomboid 200 gp in wayfinder 500 gp
Mwk climbing boots 200 gp
Wand of long arm (CL 2) 1,500 gp
Total: approximately 238,000 gp (of expected 240,000 gp per WBL)

Just ask if you need anything explained (there's quite a lot of numbers and info in that spoiler)! Hopefully, this can at least give you some insights into the potential of this kind of build.

I must say that I'm really impressed with Awakened Blade, the more I look at it the more I want to play it. I might surprise the DM when I prestige class, see if he will play it blind and watch the carnage unfold.

Oh, the AB is simply fantastic, and the strongest PrC for melee control in the game. If your GM is yet unaware of it, I really recommend you give him a heads-up, or you may become a RL target of various thrown gaming paraphernalia...

[upho]

How important are the powers to your build? Because you can enter AB with straight up Nightmare(initiator Dread) or Pathwalker(initiator psywar), both of which are far, far superior to psion at levels 1-2 and 4. You're trading 9th powers progression and no combat baseline for 6th powers and a pretty damn sweet combat baseline. They're also objectively superior for taking advantage of AB, because both of them can combine initiating and manifesting in a single round without hustling/quickening powers, which AB doesn't itself provide. They have built-in synergy and action economy benefits you can't get any other way. Virtually the only thing you lose are a few power levels and a hefty number of known powers, but warder eats those from psion too.

This is true, although I'd like to add that some of the later powers make up a pretty major part of a psion/warder/AB's mid/high level combat prowess and overall versatility. Meaning you do trade away quite a lot of later power if you go with one of the above classes.

Btw, I thought the dread was a poor choice for any kind of MC or PrC builds, as it's so highly dependent on its DC's which don't progress outside class levels. Is there a way around that?

What are your priorities? I've missed it if you mentioned them previously, but there's a lot of ways to get to and abuse AB, but they don't accomplish most possible goals. You need to know what you want to do to get the most efficient path to it and leverage the most out of it.

I believe one of the base premises is:

I'm looking at making an intelligent tank, someone who controls the battlefield by being the smartest one there.

[Ualaa]

I really like your build...

Our group has a requirement that any combination has to be 'Hero Lab' valid.
At this time, the Fiendbound Marauder, is not an option...
The DSP stuff is done by volunteers in the community, so no idea if it will be added.

Would you go straight Warder, or change anything around, if that were not available?

[exelsisxax]

This is true, although I'd like to add that some of the later powers make up a pretty major part of a psion/warder/AB's mid/high level combat prowess and overall versatility. Meaning you do trade away quite a lot of later power if you go with one of the above classes.

It'd have to be much later. Assuming 1 psion and 4 warder levels for AB entry, psywar/dread have higher power and manifester levels for the entire AB progression - getting 5th level powers at level 15 for both, though psywar/dread have a ML 4 higher and 6 fewer powers. I do not expect, in the average game, for that high a level to occur, so I'd place manifesting superiority in the dedicated hybrids.

Btw, I thought the dread was a poor choice for any kind of MC or PrC builds, as it's so highly dependent on its DC's which don't progress outside class levels. Is there a way around that?

The dread alone sure is, but Nightmare is kind of stupidly good as an archetype. Give up shadow twin and 3 powers for archetype maneuver progression and most other features get buffed, and the DC issue become largely not an issue(also, two feats). Your claim effectively gives you a scaling DC boost to terrors and many of your best powers that stacks with everything, you get channel terror earlier and it lets you ride on strikes too, and with mastery of fear you can hit something with a strike, boost, and 2 terrors and still have a move action(which you could use to both cast a power and switch stances if you really want).

It's not insane TO potential stuff, but I think it does what it's supposed to do extremely well.

Nightmare has a lot of soft tank ability, definitely not comparable to a iron tortoise/eternal guardian/golden lion focused warder, but when you can reliably Frighten everybody in line of sight your squishies are pretty safe. Main issue is that a Dread should dump INT, but half that reason is 6 base skill points anyway.

I made a fiendbound marauder/nightmare a while back, the Fiend's Grip can make things a bit silly for a Nightmare if you have a conductive gauntlet and a good grapple check. Mandatory free hugs for everyone!

[upho]

I really like your build...

Thanks!

Our group has a requirement that any combination has to be 'Hero Lab' valid.
At this time, the Fiendbound Marauder, is not an option...
The DSP stuff is done by volunteers in the community, so no idea if it will be added.

Would you go straight Warder, or change anything around, if that were not available?

Unfortunately I don't think you can replicate Bob very effectively without the FM, as fiend's grip is a very unique ability and Bob gains significant benefits from using it. Although you could of course make very effective similar psionic "dirty trip" supertanker builds. Assuming the goal is getting as close to the mechanics and effectiveness of Bob as possible, these are my thoughts:

First, the major reasons for Bob's Monk of the Silver Fist dip are of course the unique "free" shield bonus which automatically increases with weapon enhancement bonuses to the FM's fiend's grip(s), the bonus Improved Unarmed Strike for easy access to Vicious Stomp, and maneuvers for the first levels (which can later be used for meeting higher level maneuver prereqs and eventually also fueling the AB's fantastic clairsentient counter). With a manufactured reach weapon replacing the fiend's grip, the unique shield bonus is off the table, which means quite a few classes would be better to dip into than the MoSF, as these may grant additional useful bonus feats and potentially also more maneuvers.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with trying to substitute all advantages of the FM+MoSF combo, meaning a permanent shield bonus, the ability to simultaneously threaten all spaces from your own out to max reach with a reach weapon, and having the weapon treated as manufactured, natural and unarmed for the purpose of abilities, spells, items and feats. Instead, I'd focus on the two most important aspects; reach and the additional magic weapon "in hand"-slots for training weapons. So I'd wield a double-chained kama, netting me reach and also simultaneous adjacent threat as a bonus, and I'd grab the required proficiency and Weapon Focus by taking a leak COWPIS (cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone) in a wayfinder for a mere 2k if possible/needed. Then I'd add Ascetic Style, which most importantly grants the mentioned additional magic weapon slots for the double-chained kama, along with the ability to use it on Vicious Stomp AoOs.

Since this will demand at least one additional feat (Ascetic Style) and Bob's already an incredibly feat-starved build, I'd consider replacing the MoSF with the master of many styles monk archetype. This nets both Ascetic Style and IUS as bonus feats, along with the unique and potentially extremely valuable dual-style ability. However, starting with a MoMS level followed by a level of psion makes you kinda squishy during the rocket-taggy early game, and will have you sorely miss especially counters. So in a game starting at 1st, I'd probably exchange the monk level with a level of warlord privateer instead, choosing the daring gambit (dastardly gambit), dazzling gambit, and salt in the wound ploys for free Improved & Greater Dirty Trick and a nice class independent swift maneuver recovery with minor bonuses for the entire party, freeing up feat slots for Ascetic Style and IUS in later levels when those feats are actually becoming important.

Though if the FM isn't yet added to Hero Lab, I'd guess the privateer template is also missing. If that's the case and starting with the MoMS seems too risky, I think you should consider builds a bit less feat intense, and therefore less similar to BoB. And there are a whole bunch of potentially equally effective builds using other mechanical combos, especially if your main priority is to make the most out of the Awakened Blade rather than a psionically boosted warder.

And again, consider that going for this kind of build may very well make your PC OP for your game, and simply end up detracting from the fun instead of adding to it. As a telling example of just how poorly such a PC fits with the assumptions in GM and adventure design guidelines, from no later than 10th level, Bob would likely be able to solo a very large majority of level-appropriate combat encounters in published Paizo APs, without even breaking a sweat. So before you introduce any PC with a similar level of combat prowess, I really recommend you make certain the GM, as well as the rest of your group, is OK with this and that the game is explicitly high-op.