Let's build YOUR setting! Idea smorgasbord

[brian 333]

The difference is intentional cruelty. Forcing animals to fight for entertainment is vastly different from killing animals for food. The first is an Evil act, while the latter is Neutral. While killing vermin is necessary to limit disease vectors and food spoilage, it too is a Neutral act because its underlying purpose is the survival of the community.

[jqavins]

Rat terriers don't get their name from the baiting pits. For a rat to be chased down and killed by a dog in the dark and quiet or with people betting on them makes no difference at all to the rat. Bear bating, dog fighting, **** fighting, bull fighting: these are all a different story. But rat baiting is no different from betting on how many flies each of us can swat in 60 seconds in a heavily fly infested slum.

[brian 333]

Try, try again...

The difference is intent. Are you are swatting flies so you can bet on the outcome? Or are you swatting flies because they are a pestillance and the bet is just a way to incentivize performance in a rather disgusting chore?

And here's an idea for the smorgasbord:

A large island was once a prosperous kingdom until it was cursed by giant insects. Giant grasshoppers ate the fields bare then morphed into giant locusts which ate cattle and their herders too. Meanwhile, roaches came up from the sewers, flies blew in on the winds, and spiders strung webs of silk cables everywhere to catch them. The ones who fled the island were perhaps the only survivors.

Adventurers from other lands might be hired to retrieve family heirlooms, to assess the current state of the island, or to seek components for magical crafting. It may be that adventurers hear of an island suddenly abandoned and dream of the treasures left behind.

[jqavins]

Try, try again...

The difference is intent. Are you are swatting flies so you can bet on the outcome? Or are you swatting flies because they are a pestillance and the bet is just a way to incentivize performance in a rather disgusting chore?

Let's take this off line. PM to follow.

[jqavins]

A large island was once a prosperous kingdom until it was cursed by giant insects. Giant grasshoppers ate the fields bare then morphed into giant locusts which ate cattle and their herders too. Meanwhile, roaches came up from the sewers, flies blew in on the winds, and spiders strung webs of silk cables everywhere to catch them. The ones who fled the island were perhaps the only survivors.

Adventurers from other lands might be hired to retrieve family heirlooms, to assess the current state of the island, or to seek components for magical crafting. It may be that adventurers hear of an island suddenly abandoned and dream of the treasures left behind.

Sounds just a bit like Gemcraft.

[Eldan]

For me, it's more a question of... philosophy, I guess? Most thief gods in RPGs tend towards the loveable rogue archetype, who would occasionally help the underdog if it is amusing. Rat fights are literally about the stronger creature (the dog) tearing through dozens of much weaker opponents who have no hope of defending themselves. Which seems inappropriate to me to the philosophy of most rogue gods, but absolutely something I could see with a god of Strength, or Tyranny or something.

[Bohandas]

No, it's about gambling.

[brian 333]

Tob followed his ratter down the alley on the long lead so she could sniff through thd garbage and debris. Queenie was as old as Tob was young. She was ready for retirement, her back legs weak and her face and chest bearing the scars of many battles, but when Tob moved a broken crate she pounced on the rat that tried to scurry away.

She was effecient; a clamped jaw, a quick shake of the head, and she spat the dead rat onto the broken cobbles. She stood with one paw on the carcass while Tob petted and praised her, then she allowed the boy to put it in his sack. He was paid by the rat, and this was their sixth. He gave the old girl a minute to rest her back legs, then they moved on, looking for more rats.

Queenie rolled into the dirty scraps that were once a blanket and was asleep in seconds. Tob stirred up the ashes in the heater until he found a live coal and fed it with splinters until it was burning well enough to ignite the scraps of wood he had found on his rounds.

Today was his tenth birthday, and he had ten coppers from today's rounds to give to Mother, when she got home from work.

Queenie's head lifted, staring at the door, then her stump of a tail began wagging as she struggled to her feet. Tob heard the boots on the stairs down to their basement room and the door opened on Uncle Kelan. Queenie's whole body waggled in her enthusiastic attempt to greet her first owner, and Uncle Kelan paused to greet her before he greeted Tob.

Queenie was shoving her nose into his jacket, her paws clawing at him as if he were hiding a rat. Uncle Kelin laughed, petting the old girl, then unbuttoned his jacket. A black muzzle and shiny eyes popped out, a pup! As Uncle Kelin drew the young ratter out Tob could see it was brindled, brown stripes blended into its short, black fur. Its body filled one of his hands, front and back ends dangling as he set it on the ground.

Queenie snuffed it from end to end, and though the pup didn't roll over, it peed on the floor, growling when Queenie nipped it. It was a male, its bobbed tail and ears already healed, and it had white under its chin and on the tips of its feet. Queenie, bored with the pup, tried to climb Uncle Kelin's leg, but her weak hind legs betrayed her and she sat.

"About ready to retire, aren't you, old girl?" Uncle Kelin asked as he pet her. Queenie was focused on the man, but Tob's attention was on the pup.

"You like him?" Uncle Kelin asked.

"Uh huh," Tob replied.

"He's Queenie's grandson by Dari. Your cousin's spoiled the bitch, but she's got good instincts. I think he might make a good ratter, what do you think?"

Was it a test? Tob's uncle had been training and testing him for years. Tob lifted the pup and looked him over. No irregularities, legs straight and joints sound. Two of the needle-sharp baby teeth were missing with the adult teeth crowning in their sockets. His lips a the roof of his mouth were black, the toung attempting to lick Tob was pink. The eyes were bright and followed him. The pup kept trying to lick Tob.

He set it on the ground then dangled a scrap of leather in front of it. Queenie lunged, but Uncle Kelin held her. The pup reached for the scrap with a paw before he grabbed it in his teeth. Tob tried to pulk it, but the pup growled and jerked at it. They played tug a moment before Tob let the pup take it away.

Finally Tob said, "He'll make a good ratter if he's trained right."

Tob had never trained a ratter., but he spoke with the authority of an apprentice to a master. Uncle Kelin had trained and bred ratters since he was Tob's age, and he had taught Tob everything he knew. Queenie had been Uncle Kelin's best ratter when she was younger, and even at twelve she was keeping up with most of the ratters in the city, teaching Tob how to handle rat-dogs as she hunted in back alleys and trash piles.

"Think you're up to it?" Uncle Kelin asked.

"Me?"

"You and Queenie," he replied. "Queenie is getting too old to keep working, and a dog-boy needs a dog. Another three months should give you enough time to get him started out right. Think you're up to it?"

"Oh yes!" Tob scooped up the puppy whose slimy tongue smeared his face.

"I'll be by every day or two to check up on you. As soon as he's ratting I'll take Queenie home with me. I miss the old girl."

Tob frowned, looking at the old dog as it sat at Uncle Kelan's feet staring at him. He loved the old girl, but in her heart she still belonged to his uncle. The wriggling pup with the long tongue would look at him that way one day.

"What's his name?" asked Tob.

***

A society derived from nomadic tribes still maintains close ties with their dogs, using specificly bred animalx for specific purposes:

Ratters: small, exceptionally aggressive and muscular dogs used to keep the rodent population in check
Carters: medium to large dogs heavily muscled and trained to haul two- and four-wheeled carts to haul goods through narrow urban streets
Guards: bred for exceptional hearing and a willingness to attack humans, these dangerous animals guard estates and businesses, and require well trained handlers
Patrolers: these dogs partnered with human police officers multiply the effiiciency of city guard patrols
Messengers: bred and trained to carry messages to particular locations or to particular people

Less urban dog breeds are herders, hunters, farm dogs, and other specialized types more common in our world. It is said that dogs serving the LG temple were bred with celestial canines to produce dogs capable of sniffing out evil.

[Bohandas]

The difference is intentional cruelty. Forcing animals to fight for entertainment is vastly different from killing animals for food. The first is an Evil act, while the latter is Neutral. While killing vermin is necessary to limit disease vectors and food spoilage, it too is a Neutral act because its underlying purpose is the survival of the community.

To be fair, in a setting where the gods are active, animal sacrifice could also provide a legitimate benefit to the community

[brian 333]

To be fair, in a setting where the gods are active, animal sacrifice could also provide a legitimate benefit to the community

Again, it goes back to intent. Necessity turned to fun is one issue, but inflicting cruelty upon helpless creatures to get your jollies is another.

Don't get me wrong: I've raked the corn crib so the barn cats could get the mice, and I have hunted, fished, and slaughtered farm-raised animals for food. Killing isn't my issue. But inflicting cruelty upon living creatures for the purpose of fun is not the same thing at all.

[Bohandas]

Setting aside rat baiting for now, but boing back to rogue gods, the god of rogues' clerics, especially those of the stay in the temple variety. often follow vows that resemble either rock, rap, or hollywood culture and/or resemble rock or rap lyrics. For example a particular friar might be under vows to rock and roll all night and party every day, and also to smoke weed every day

[Bohandas]

Again, it goes back to intent. Necessity turned to fun is one issue, but inflicting cruelty upon helpless creatures to get your jollies is another.

Don't get me wrong: I've raked the corn crib so the barn cats could get the mice, and I have hunted, fished, and slaughtered farm-raised animals for food. Killing isn't my issue. But inflicting cruelty upon living creatures for the purpose of fun is not the same thing at all.

Arguably the meat thing is for fun since the reason people eat meat is that it tastes better than plants, not because they need it. At least with rat baiting there's a chance, however miniscule, that the rats will win.

[jqavins]

Arguably the meat thing is for fun since the reason people eat meat is that it tastes better than plants, not because they need it. At least with rat baiting there's a chance, however miniscule, that the rats will win.

People eat meat because we're evolved to eat meat, and living without it means finding substitutes to make up for deficiencies. Sure, those substitutes can be found, but meat is a basic part of our diet. The "tasets better" aspect is evolution's way of telling us that we're supposed to eat it.

[ufo]

I was just fiddling around with a setting inspired by the game Tooth and Tail and thought I'd drop a quote here, but I see it's also incredibly appropriate to the discussion here

"Tonight, for the first time in generations, we shall feast! Fear not, you will not have to pick worthy kin from your teeth, our enemies' fallen will fill our stomachs. War was always the solution to starvation - let the weak feed the strong!"

[TheBrassDuke]

December 21, 2012.

A mysterious tragedy occurs which wipes out almost everyone in the world.

Generations later, Humanity is still a shadow of it's former self. Humanity lives in secluded locations and thrive only by embracing high innovation or powerful magic. A few political entities arise from the ashes of civilization, but by and large, city states, tribes and powerful clans tend to run the day to life of a Human being.

And Humans aren't alone. The Alien Menace stalks the survivors and lurks in our shadows, searching for the time to strike when we least expect it.

The Sun Vanished (Twitter) would be an interesting path to try.

[Bohandas]

People eat meat because we're evolved to eat meat, and living without it means finding substitutes to make up for deficiencies. Sure, those substitutes can be found, but meat is a basic part of our diet. The "tasets better" aspect is evolution's way of telling us that we're supposed to eat it.

You could make the same arguments about sugar and grease, and they'd be equally valid/relevant to a modern lifestyle. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to go vegan, because if you go vegan and still follow your evolutionarily dictated tastes you're just going to wind up eating fritos and oreos all the time

[jqavins]

You could make the same arguments about sugar and grease, and they'd be equally valid/relevant to a modern lifestyle. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to go vegan, because if you go vegan and still follow your evolutionarily dictated tastes you're just going to wind up eating fritos and oreos all the time

Indeed you can. In the evolutionary state, high fat and high sugar foods were hard to come by, so one mostly couldn't get too much of them. Now, in developed nations, too much is readily available, but we still have the evolutionary drive to eat it when we can get it, so we end up with an obesity problem. And we end up eating more meat than is really necessary also, for the same reason. While this doesn't mean we ought to cut fats ad sugars out completey (that would lead to death) it's also not necessary to cut meat out completely.

Incidentally, the last time I checked (which was a really long time ago) Oreos weren't vegan. That creamy filling is made with lard. When I was growing up, we had Hydrox because they were Kosher and Oreos were not.

[Bohandas]

Indeed you can. In the evolutionary state, high fat and high sugar foods were hard to come by, so one mostly couldn't get too much of them. Now, in developed nations, too much is readily available, but we still have the evolutionary drive to eat it when we can get it, so we end up with an obesity problem. And we end up eating more meat than is really necessary also, for the same reason. While this doesn't mean we ought to cut fats ad sugars out completey (that would lead to death) it's also not necessary to cut meat out completely.

Incidentally, the last time I checked (which was a really long time ago) Oreos weren't vegan. That creamy filling is made with lard. When I was growing up, we had Hydrox because they were Kosher and Oreos were not.

Apparently they replaced all the fats with vegetable oil like a decade and a half ago

[JoshuaZ]

Incidentally, the last time I checked (which was a really long time ago) Oreos weren't vegan. That creamy filling is made with lard. When I was growing up, we had Hydrox because they were Kosher and Oreos were not.

Yeah, that's what killed Hydrox. When Oreo changed their formulation, the groups which ate Hydrox didn't have to anymore and all switch to Oreos. That killed Hydrox off. Curiously, Hydrox was actually the original and Oreo the knock-off even though many people thought of Hydrox as an Oreo knock-off.

[Bohandas]

Gatting back on topic. Humans' free feat represents most of the game world's "humans" being about 60-80% human and 20-40% miscellaneous (ie. elf, orc, dragon, celestial, demon, devil, etc. all mixed together over generations of halfbreeds crossbreeding)

[brian 333]

The Nation Of Rhona is a feudal theocracy whith a very low population density due to religious requirements.

No more than five families may build homes within sight of one another, for example, so homes tend to be large to accomodate multiple generations. Each home must farm enough to meet its basic needs, so all of them are surrounded by cultivated fields.

The nation is heirarchal, from family administration right up to the High Priest of Rhona, whose temple is quite small by the standards of most kingdoms. Those who don't fit in and those whose families cannot afford to feed them are inducted into one of the numerous orders, some religious, some military, and some secular, where their labor can be utilized to benefit the Nation.

Manufacturing sites are more like monasteries, and mines, quarries, and other raw materials production sites are organized like military units.

The chief exports of Rhona are knights and missionaries who seek to spread their way of life in all directions. From time to time military conquests of other lands occurs, and whenever a city or town falls into their control, the local population is enslaved and forced to dismantle it, converting the region into farmland.

Their tradition holds that at some future time all of the world will belong to them.

This is a Lawful Neutral nation. Clerics are very common among the adventuring population, with monks, knights, and other fighters being the bulk of the remainder. Paladins are not unusual, but Rogues and Bards are rare. Wizards and sorcerers keep a low profile because they are commonly scapegoated when trouble arises.

[jqavins]

The Nation Of Rhona is a feudal theocracy whith a very low population density due to religious requirements.

No more than five families may build homes within sight of one another, for example, so homes tend to be large to accomodate multiple generations. Each home must farm enough to meet its basic needs, so all of them are surrounded by cultivated fields.

The nation is heirarchal, from family administration right up to the High Priest of Rhona, whose temple is quite small by the standards of most kingdoms...

That's, um... weird. The dawn of civilization is basically the same as the dawn of cities. Hierarchies rely on the higher and lower levels being in close contact; to maintain one without clustered population is weird. A productive culture relies on specialization, which means the exchange of goods; when everybody has to produce all their own food, no one can spend time developing, let's say, smithing skill, so where do all these fighters get their weapons and armor? Of course, this is fantasy and it doesn't have to make realistic sense, but it's, again, weird.

This is a Lawful Neutral nation. Clerics are very common among the adventuring population, with monks, knights, and other fighters being the bulk of the remainder. Paladins are not unusual, but Rogues and Bards are rare...

I've never understood why bards are seen as chaotic, except for 1E's ridiculous bard rules that require earning some levels as a thief. Why not have a rigidly ordered organization of itinerant news spreaders/gatherers and entertainers?

[brian 333]

That's, um... weird. The dawn of civilization is basically the same as the dawn of cities. Hierarchies rely on the higher and lower levels being in close contact; to maintain one without clustered population is weird. A productive culture relies on specialization, which means the exchange of goods; when everybody has to produce all their own food, no one can spend time developing, let's say, smithing skill, so where do all these fighters get their weapons and armor? Of course, this is fantasy and it doesn't have to make realistic sense, but it's, again, weird.

I've never understood why bards are seen as chaotic, except for 1E's ridiculous bard rules that require earning some levels as a thief. Why not have a rigidly ordered organization of itinerant news spreaders/gatherers and entertainers?

If you will note, this is a parasitic culture. It does not invent or innovate.

Specialization exists within the various orders. Families are severely limited in size by the lands they cultivate, so while extra children are needed for farm labor, extra adults strain their capacity to feed everyone. The various orders absorb the surplus population, and each order specializes in something. So one order may scribe religious texts, another may handle law enforcement, and others may be involved in metalwork or carpentry or whatever.

Bards are independent thinkers, which is anathema to an ordered and regulated society. Disturbers of the peace, dreamers, and those who are not 'contributing to society' like artists are unwelcome where regimentation of thought and action are considered beneficial.

In this society news and entertainment are the purview of the religious orders. People live very isolated lives, whether on their farms or in their orders. 'Fun' is deemed a frivolous waste of time unless it is done in a way which reinforces religious principles, music is disruptive unless is is part of worship, and news is dangerous unless it is filtered and explained in such a way that it reinforces and never conflicts with dogma.

I have for a long time thought about fantasy societies as an intentional contrast between Lawful civilization and Chaotic wilderness. This contrast seems to have derived from my cultural roots, in which cities were lauded in the way you describe them.

But I have noticed that our modern cities are centers of disruption while actually contributing very little to our society. The modern city consumes everything but produces nothing. Production is in the outlying regions, the farmlands, and the suburbs. You could have a god come along and scoop every city from the Earth and rural life would continue unchanged except for being poorer in currency. On the other hand, very few urban areas could survive for two weeks if their supply lines are cut.

From this thesis I have created a culture which abhors cities. My thesis may not by exactly correct, but it's good enough to build a fantasy setting, and the bonus is that it resulted in a fantasy culture I've never seen before.

[GaelofDarkness]

Taking inspiration from China Miéville's "The City and the City":

There are three great deities in the Sierkadian Empire, the twins Laru (the Goddess of daylight, warriors, service and dignity) and Reli (the God of night, artistry, indulgence and trickery) and their mother the Great Sky Goddess Oco. Unsurprisingly, the Apollonian and Dionysian pair of siblings HATE each other. One is always provoking the other into a contest to see who is better and this always ends in a stalemate - or with Laru accusing Reli of cheating... because he did. So Oco divided time in the mortal world between them, so that each can have their chance to shine and humanity could benefit from the gifts of both.

Many generations ago the then Empress of Sierkadia had twin boys - Elo and Ero. These were her first children and out of deep love for them both she refused to place one ahead of the other as heir - so after her passing they shared the throne as Twin-Emperors. In breaking with the tradition of the royal house at the time, the boys openly showed favor for one of the twin deities over the other. Elo favored Laru while Ero favored Reli. The two were excellent leaders together and Sierkadia expanded greatly between Elo's military tactics and Ero's diplomatic maneuvers. However, their opposing personalities and shared stubbornness lead to great friction in the upper echelons of society. Soon, all nobles had chosen to side with the cult of Laru or of Reli and a cold war was underway between them.

The squabbling of the nobles only amplified the squabbling of the twin gods. They decided to find out whose ideal society would work better and demanded that Oco give them nations of their own (for only she could be trusted to do so fairly). Oco complied... sort of. She found a way to give her children communities of their own but ultimately tied them together until they learned that each other's strengths were complementary - not opposing. So the human aristocracy were transformed into a new race of humanoids - or rather a pair of new races. Both factions gained long-life, good health and an affinity for magic (for Oco is not a cruel goddess and these changes are genuine gifts). Those who sided with Elo and the Lady of the Burning Sword became the Laruans, with copper skin (literally metallic copper), golden hair, strong physiques and an aura of authority. Those who sided with Ero and the Lord of the Dew-Laden Goblet became the Relians, with silver skin, jet-black hair, lithe bodies and an aura of allure.

One might imagine the Laruans and Relians parted ways and never spoke to each other again - or that they flew into open warfare following their transformation. However, there was a slight catch to their newfound gifts. The Laruans lost their magic and strength when the sun set and were left weakened until it rose again. The Relians became nocturnal and their powers left them with sunrise and returned only with the coming of night. So the two communities were forced to support each other in their times of vulnerability. Worse, when a child is born in the day, they are born Laruan regardless of whether their parents were Laruan or Relian. When a child is born at night, they are born Relian. The only exception was the royal house where every birth was with twins - identical save one is Laruan and one is Relian.

Unfortunately, Oco had underestimated the enmity that had grown between the Twin-Emperors and during their greatly lengthened lifetimes they reshaped the capital of Quotidia into segregated districts - not segregated in space so much as in time. Outside of private homes, the city belongs to the Laruans during the day and the Relians during the night. Fraternizing between the two is frowned upon - even centuries after the original Twin-Emperors' passing. A child is expected to be raised by their own kind and so it is not uncommon for Relian children to be ripped from the hands of their Laruan children. There is an entire industry dedicated to timely induced labor. Of course, though none will admit this, the reason that so many neighborhoods remain unsegregated spatially is so that families can stay together in secret - a Relian and Laruan family agreeing to raise each other's children if needed so that the parent's can at least be assured to see their children grow up, even if they must do so secretly.

The Quotidian palace had it's throne room destroyed and two towers built instead - to house two new throne rooms. The rulers of Sierkadia are now almost always twins, except for when one dies before the other (a rare occurrence as these twins seem connected to each other in a deep way they will never admit to). The Tower of the Sun is the seat of the Laruan Emperor while the Tower of the Moon is the seat of the Relian Emperor. Even the towers reveal the deep differences between the cultures of Laruans and Relians with the Tower of the Sun being stout, imposing and strong while the Tower of the Moon is slender, built with swooping curves in the architecture and almost gaudily ornamented. Both rise from the same palace where during the twilit hours the twins of the royal house are still educated together in many matters - to ensure one is not getting preferential treatment. Though in the day the Laruan royalty are taught more about combat, strategy and chivalry, while at night the Relian royalty are taught more about cunning, manipulation and the arts.

Those children born on the cusp of dawn or dusk are born neither Laruan nor Relian, but human and so these poor children are ostracized from aristocratic life in Sierkadia. Or at least, most believe that they are human. There is a sect of the church of Oco that believes these children are in fact Ocoans, the favored of Oco just as Laruans are the favored of Laru and Relians are the favored of Reli, and their gifts are hidden from direct viewing much as the wind is. This is usually considered heresy for Oco favors all her followers equally - though in response one might wonder why Oco wouldn't bless some with gifts to help all. In any case, the sun is just about to rise on a new day in the city of Quotidia and the Relian Empress is in labor... oh dear.

Spoiler: Stating these dudes

Show

This occured to me as I was writing so I'll shove it in here. I'm going with 5e since it's so popular nowadays and I was just looking at races for ideas to steal for a homebrew.

You could re-skin half elves by fixing the two +1 ASIs of your choice into +1 Con and +1 Str (for Laruans) or +1 Con and +1 Dex (for Relians). Throw out Fey Ancestry and add in the following delayed magical abilities:

For Laruans - At first level you learn the Thaumaturgy cantrip. At 3rd level you can cast Zone of Truth once with this feature. At 5th level you can cast Flame Blade as a second level spell once with this feature. Charisma is your spell-casting stat.

For Relians - At first level you learn the Prestidigitation cantrip. At 3rd level you can cast Faerie Fire once with this feature. At 5th level you can cast Moonbeam as a second level spell once with this feature. Charisma is your spell-casting stat.

Those spells are probably in need of balancing quite badly since I just went with what felt thematically appropriate.

If Ocoan are indeed a thing I'd give them a similar skin except change the ASIs around to be something like +2 Wis, +1 Con and +1Cha? Or maybe +2 Wi,s +1 Con and +1Dex/Str? Instead of having spells I was thinking it'd be cool to give them some aura ability like paladins have - but maybe something they can't benefit from personally. Maybe all allies - excluding yourself - within range can gain advantage on a saving throw a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier? That's probably too powerful though. Maybe they can add your relevant stat modifier to the saving throw? Or they can add your proficiency bonus only when it's a saving throw you have proficiency in?

[Bohandas]

I've never understood why bards are seen as chaotic, except for 1E's ridiculous bard rules that require earning some levels as a thief. Why not have a rigidly ordered organization of itinerant news spreaders/gatherers and entertainers?

It might be a refrence to the stereotypically erratic and out of control behavior of artists and celebrity entertainers. Rock stars trashing hotel rooms, Britney Spears' meltdown, Charlie Sheen's meltdown, Michael Jackson, GG Allin, etc.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It might be a refrence to the stereotypically erratic and out of control behavior of artists and celebrity entertainers. Rock stars trashing hotel rooms, Britney Spears' meltdown, Charlie Sheen's meltdown, Michael Jackson, GG Allin, etc.

Weren't bards also a thief multiclass originally? Or am I getting confused...

[brian 333]

Weren't bards also a thief multiclass originally? Or am I getting confused...

The original bards were required to be fighter-thief-druid multiclass characters before they became bards.

[jqavins]

The original bards were required to be fighter-thief-druid multiclass characters before they became bards.

Close; I just went through this as my daughter was thinking of making a bard for a game still run in 1e.

Remember that humans can't multiclass, but are the only race that can change class. Changing class means they start over at zero XP in the new class and can't use the old class's abilities until the new class's level meets (or is it exceeds?) the original. Then they can use the original class's abilities at the level that they'd reached before making the switch, but do not advance in the old class any further.

Anyway, to be a bard one has to achieve 5 to 8 levels in fighter and in thief (in a particular order which I don't remember) and then switch to bard. So switching classes twice. The bard advances as a druid and gets druid spells, but isn't a druid per se. It's bizarre and takes outrageous time to achieve, which I think was meant to balance how powerful they are, but also contributes to how powerful they are (if you ever get there). Really bad design. My daughter decided to make a thief.

Anyhow, as I suggested in the earlier comment, it may be that this thief heritage has persisted in the image of the bard. I still don't get why it should. Even druids in 1e had a rigid hierarchy, which is weirdly lawful for a class that is the archetype of neutrality.

[GaelofDarkness]

Anyway, to be a bard one has to achieve 5 to 8 levels in fighter and in thief (in a particular order which I don't remember) and then switch to bard. So switching classes twice. The bard advances as a druid and gets druid spells, but isn't a druid per se.

That is so weird...

As for my own two cents on why the bard is portrayed as somewhat chaotic, I think that has to do with the archetypical bard of high fantasy being an amalgam of a bunch of different things. The term "bard" original referred to a low ranking filí, which was a member of a class of scholarly elites in Ireland up until around the Renaissance-ish. This group did consist primarily of poets and musicians but these didn't have the role or connotation we might attribute to them today - instead being seen as the keepers of a living oral tradition, being wise counsel to the tribes' leaders and serving as judges/lawkeepers. The highest rank of filíwas an ollam or ollamh (anglicized as ollave since it's actually pronounced like "ul-uv"). There was an awful lot of overlapping responsibility between filí and druids, to the point that it's not always clear if these titles weren't at times used interchangeably or maybe one was a particular subtype/rank of the other. This usage may also not have been very consistent since we're talking about a VERY long time period (I'd always heard of bards as a type of filí but apparently bards and filid may have been entirely distinct groups with bards having low status and filid having high status but I have no idea how true that is). That's before one even touches on how the term may have varied over different Gaelic nations (Scotland and the Isle of Man were both historically Gaelic) not to mention other Celtic cultures like Brittonic/Brythonic-language speaking cultures. Speculation on the etymology of the term filí has led some to argue that it originally referred very specifically to a kind of soothsayer who foretold the future in verse.

This stuff is what I think a lot of the more serious or deeply mystical, bardic lore stuff was inspired by. Not really chaotic.

Outside of Celtic cultures, the first of use of the term (and the way it entered English) was by Early Modern English-speakers (and/or Scots-speakers I'd assume?) in 17th century Scotland. It was used as a derogatory term for travelling musicians - likely with a somewhat xenophobic connotation by the Germanic people using it. Around the same time, the older traditions of Ireland had declined and while bards were still around they took on a rather different role. They were still poets and musicians but they were paid by sponsors to make music/poetry about how awesome they were or how terrible their rivals were (if you're interested in that dynamic I strongly recommend reading up on the Contention of the Bards) and while the air of prestige still accompanied them, they were no longer the experts, religious authorities or judiciary they had been.

This imo is probably where the general idea of the bard as someone who is sly, cunning or potentially dangerous - the kind of person you need to keep an eye on - comes from. Even if it was just with their sharp wit, you wouldn't want to let them get to you. I'd also say this got muddled up with the archetype of a con man, or the "Face" in say a heist crew. Definitely "chaotic" flavor there.

Then along comes Sir Walter Scott at the turn of the nineteenth century. He romanticized the term and it came to be used as an epithet for authors and minstrels of great renown. For example, Shakespeare has come to be known as the "Bard of Avon". So the term came to mean any creative type who used words in their work, be that a poet, a playwright or a lyricist - especially if the art was more romantic or in line with "high culture" using more literary and lyrical terms and forms. So a pop star wouldn't be a bard but that guy at the coffee shop singing pretentiously about heartbreak ticked the box. Eventually, "bard" in it's broadest sense just meant a performer or someone who wrote performances (like playwrights or songwriters). This would include the general idea of a magician or conjurer - at least if they used grandiose, old-fashioned verse in their acts to create the right mood.

So I'd say that bard came to mean all kinds of creatives and then the image of bard that people have in their head got all the baggage culture has about artists in general piled on top. The idea of the bards as roguish/romantic/womanizing types probably comes from the way the term was romanticized too. Considering how people refer to an "artist's temperament", this influence is probably more chaotic than lawful.

And that's just "bard" bards. There's also skalds, rhapsodes and scops who had similar roles in Norse, Greek and English (well, Old English) society. Beyond that there's loads more titles that were given to people with comparable roles but different connotations and cultural contexts like the West African Griot. With all these different, competing influences I can see how bards are seen as chaotic. Even just by having so many different influences, the archetype of bard is a really messy and conflicted one and that alone puts it leaning toward chaotic rather than lawful.

[Bohandas]

Weren't bards also a thief multiclass originally? Or am I getting confused...

Celebrities are way more chaotic than thieves