OOTS #1115 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

At least two.

And the moment he finds out who they are, he says "I'm supposed to devour you now"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html

[Peelee]

And the moment he finds out who they are, he says "I'm supposed to devour you now"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html

And in the very next strip, he only thinks he should eat them at the express command of Xykon. He ultimately decides he's still hungry, yet doesn't eat Mr. Stiffly, so he clearly only decided to eat the people Xykon ordered him to.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vaarsuvius - went all Darth V, and began to understand the full depth of his actions.

Of those, I bet only V will get his redemption in the end.

V's regret is sincere, and V's admission of being in the wrong is also credible.

[Fyraltari]

And in the very next strip, he only thinks he should eat them at the express command of Xykon. He ultimately decides he's still hungry, yet doesn't eat Mr. Stiffly, so he clearly only decided to eat the people Xykon ordered him to.

That's basically why I usedthis handy little thing: "?"

Because until we have confirmation that the GBiS has actually eaten someone (which I don't believe will ever happen) I consider that he started the story as Neutral, hence the uncertainty as whether he was "redeeming" himself. I still count that he sees nothing wrong with eating people as evil. Peanuts next to what the actual Evil (and some Neutral) characters are up to in this comic but still.

EDIT: Or he decided not to eat the nice people who come to his tea-parties as surprise guests because they love him.

[Peelee]

That's basically why I usedthis handy little thing: "?"

Because until we have confirmation that the GBiS has actually eaten someone (which I don't believe will ever happen) I consider that he started the story as Neutral, hence the uncertainty as whether he was "redeeming" himself. I still count that he sees nothing wrong with eating people as evil. Peanuts next to what the actual Evil (and some Neutral) characters are up to in this comic but still.

EDIT: Or he decided not to eat the nice people who come to his tea-parties as surprise guests because they love him.

Oh, I getcha. Misread that. Sorry!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If at all (s???)he's eaten Babies

sch

MitD self-identifies as male (he won't allow girls in his club). O-Chul refers to him as a good man.

GW

[Kish]

The purportedly True Neutral being standing next to him seems to be fine with it. Of course, V was just coming back from the deep end of the alignment pool and would probably need to see something a tad nastier to really be moved on a moral level.

Yeah, I think any argument for Belkar's moral standing based on "no worse than Vaarsuvius" is on seriously shaky ground at this point.

[Ave]

Belkar's awareness of Durkon's sacrifice, and the subsequent obligation he feels toward him (no matter how hard he denies it), has been my favorite step in his development.

Also factor in, he is faking it. This must require quite a lot of processing power of his brain.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Pardon me for interrupting the Belkar psychoanalysis, but... what alphabet are the runes in the next-to-last panel taken from? They seem to vaguely match some Nordic or Tolkienian variants, but then they don't make sense at all. Or is that just gobbledygook..?

I don't think it's gibberish. I'd guess "Banquet Hall". The number of letters fits, the double letter at the end of the second and the symbol for the A matches in both words.

But I don't know which alphabet it is. Seems very Tolkienian indeed.

[Fyraltari]

Most likely the same alphabet as there.
Here it's too short to be a joke in my opinion. Probably just Banquet Hall as you said.

[Peelee]

I don't think it's gibberish. I'd guess "Banquet Hall". The number of letters fits, the double letter at the end of the second and the symbol for the A matches in both words.

You are a credit to the other hundred and one.

[hamishspence]

And in the very next strip, he only thinks he should eat them at the express command of Xykon. He ultimately decides he's still hungry, yet doesn't eat Mr. Stiffly, so he clearly only decided to eat the people Xykon ordered him to.

Yup. The point I was trying to make was - Xykon's idea involves him being the "final fight" - stepping out of the shadows to confront the the heroes, and then eating them.

It's plausible that, before the Order, no heroes have ever gotten quite far enough to be eaten by him - thus, he's just gotten "regular food".

[Doug Lampert]

Hmm. I think Belkar's prophesy is coming true soon. He's shown the right amount of character growth and empathy.

I'm still betting against. IMAO Belkar dies at the climax, which won't happen till someone finds the last gate at the earliest. This isn't there yet.

Someday Belkar will die, and thousands will cry "called it"! And I will probably say, "Yawn, I missed it, but then I also missed the hundreds of times people called it in error".

After they find the final gate. Not before. Not being Rich I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

My first thought was Belkar is totally gonna be a martyr. My second thought was Belkar is gonna go in that direction, escape the death part, gloat about how he doesn't need to, and then get killed very shortly afterwards anyway.

This one sounds more plausible.

Oh, hey, look at that. Redemption stories that don't involve nearly burning down clan halls (and are thus, you know, redemption stories).

Hm, I really wonder what Belkar's current alignment actually is.

Chaotic Evil, the big hint on the Evil part is where he thinks stabbing things in the face is a good way to deal with his internal conflict.

Belkar's way of dealing with his feelings reminds me of the Crystal golem...

Yep. Hey! She must have been most of the way to CN too! She was perfectly willing to crush little gnome's skulls rather than attack Haley. What a wonderful person.

[Ruck]

Also factor in, he is faking it. This must require quite a lot of processing power of his brain.

I think it's very clear by now Belkar is not faking his character growth.

[Killer Angel]

That's a great example of showing the process of character growth.

[Sebastian]

Belkar will never fight the vampire with as much intensity as he is currently fighting his own character growth.

But he is getting XP for that?

[D.One]

But he is getting XP for that?

No, because, in the case of fighting his his own character growth, he's losing the battle...

Edit:

Even though he may be winning, in some sense, as he is learning some new things and feelings... gosh, this "interpretation xp" thing is confusing sometimes...

[Sebastian]

Really? You think Belkar could be anything other than utterly devastated by finding himself stuck to a wall inside his own mind while a vampire spirit piloted his body, at this point, with how he feels about vampires and how he's reacted to even the lightest restrictions on his freedom in the past?

It's ironic that someone who loves Belkar wants such a horrible fate for him.

Horrible fate? for who?

Craft disturbing mental images, remember? "I'm not stuck in my head with you. You are stuck in my head with me!"

Well, probably it will not happen, but it would be hilarious (and if it happen, called it )

[Manty5]

I think that the underlying purpose of this strip is Rich saying "Hello, major and explicit cluebat that Belkar is undergoing character change".

Because god knows these forums NEED a cluebat to stop them from debating how a wrench to the skull of the captain isn't mutiny.

[WombleofDarknes]

I think that there may be another interpretation to the panel 11 question ("Who the hell puts someone in that position anyway"). There is a possible answer to this rhetorical question - at least in Belkars mind: Odin.

Take a look at #1097 again; Belkar puts the blame for Durkons exile right where it actually is - at Odins door. If the gods turn up again in this story, I think that it's possible that Belkar is going to be asking some uncomfortable questions of them; in a way that not one of the other characters could.

And then Odin kills him for his insolence.

[Burner28]

I think that the underlying purpose of this strip is Rich saying "Hello, major and explicit cluebat that Belkar is undergoing character change".

Because god knows these forums NEED a cluebat to stop them from debating how a wrench to the skull of the captain isn't mutiny.

Character development=/= on course to redemption or alignment change. There's a fundamental difference that people don't get.

[Snails]

IMO the habit of the enjoyment of inflicting pain, especially unnecessary pain, is one of the most important flags for separating Evil and Neutral (and Good) characters in D&D.

Belkar has travelled far but the road to Neutral is still very very long, and I would cite this reason as a huge hurdle before him.

Hilgya has a peculiar habit of thinking violence first, but we have no real evidence she takes pleasure in such, beyond a bizarre narrow-minded self-centeredness that most any offense against her earns killing.

Eugene raises some interesting questions, because he seems to relish verbally abusing his son, especially when it hurts. That has the whiff of evil, but I do recognize that his interactions with his son might be a weird anomaly in a life that could have been otherwise highly consistently LG.

[eilandesq]

Really? You think Belkar could be anything other than utterly devastated by finding himself stuck to a wall inside his own mind while a vampire spirit piloted his body, at this point, with how he feels about vampires and how he's reacted to even the lightest restrictions on his freedom in the past?

It's ironic that someone who loves Belkar wants such a horrible fate for him.

Gotta still be technically evil or his clasp wouldn't hurt him to use.

We've already seen a dwarf who reacted by saying "hey, this is pretty cool!" Given that we know from Durkula that the vampire gets in the driver's seat by looking for the worst moment in the now-deceased person's life, and that Belkar's level of evil peaked at about 3 Kilonazis (more than half of the level of evil of a hypothetical offspring of Sauron and Cruella De Ville), it's more than a little likely that Belkar's vampire spirit would quickly go catatonic from sheer horror, and Belkar's spirit would sigh, free itself, then decide whether he wanted to play with the new powers, or just kiss the sunlight and head off to the chaotic evil afterlife to kill more stuff.

[Kish]

I think that's only marginally more likely than Belkar single-handedly killing the Snarl with his daggers.

Malack was able, without going catatonic, to look forward to turning a continent into an abbatoir; Greg is setting out to destroy the world, hoping he'll get to torment Durkon's best friend as much as possible along the way, including by gloating about the fact that Durkon will suffer for all eternity. Belkar at his worst is strictly little league compared to the free-willed vampires who have already been depicted.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I don't know why, but for some reason, I really enjoyed the first panel.

Maybe it's the contrast between Vaarsuvius's facial expression and Elan's facial expression, or the way that Roy looks almost transparent, or maybe just the image of (most of) the Order walking through caverns towards a showdown with an undead evil, but I felt a wave of OOTs nostalgia.

[F.Harr]

Yeah nothing complex here.

Piglet.

[Kardwill]

Chaotic Evil, the big hint on the Evil part is where he thinks stabbing things in the face is a good way to deal with his internal conflict.

Well, he talks about it a lot, sure (just like he talked about killing Roy while climbing the mountain), but he doesn't really do that anymore, does he? I mean, before D's death he still did plenty of horrible stuff, but afterward, he's been more bark than bite.

(Well outside of clear combat situations, like the giants, but hey, in that same fight, V burned people alive, Haley relished in being "pointy death incarnate", and Roy taunted people he was trying to kill, so I count it as "normal murderhobo/adventuring")

Oh, I agree he's still south of neutral. But we've seen him show restraint (sort of), guilt (over D), and shame (the gnome merchant). And right there, it looks like he finds his previous attitude irritating ("idiot teammate who's never been anything but a jackass to me"). That's not enough to cross the neutral barrier (for example, he still shows no guilt about his previous murder sprees, even if he didn't partake in them for some time), but it's very un-belkar-y.

The little idiot is growing. I like it :)

[Giscard76]

I LOVE!!!! this comic!

[The MunchKING]

The same Xykon who said he was more scary than the silver dragon?

After Redcloak called him out on that one he amended it to “scarier than you SHOULD be.”.

So whatever the Monster is, it’s species is pretty scary.

[Fyraltari]

I think that there may be another interpretation to the panel 11 question ("Who the hell puts someone in that position anyway"). There is a possible answer to this rhetorical question - at least in Belkars mind: Odin.

Take a look at #1097 again; Belkar puts the blame for Durkons exile right where it actually is - at Odins door. If the gods turn up again in this story, I think that it's possible that Belkar is going to be asking some uncomfortable questions of them; in a way that not one of the other characters could.

And then Odin kills him for his insolence.

Is Odin supposed to be Good or Neutral? I ask because he hasn't had much characterization yet and because while I can reluctantly accept a Good character sacrificing one individual for a greater good (especially when they are in a position of power and thus responsability) I really can't picture killing someone for insolence and calling oneself good.