(Spheres of Power) Trickster's Handbook Open Beta

[Saffron-sama]

The Gm was not all that annoyed he just broght up the concerns that a 1st levels character could sell his services to cities to build large walls around them for large amounts of gold. In the campaign we are in now this is not a big deal since their is no magic items.

So Creation, forge, nature, forge earth, expanded materials... what does this character do IN combat? (please tell me you role play him as a pacifist, coward or benevolent dictator of subterranean rodents, it will really make my day)

Well I think I need to take Feats for Beastmastery combat sphere and Broad Skills. We will invade the surface world, eventually but for now I will expand my kingdom.

The things in the spoiler are a bit off topic so, but since you asked about the character "personality" and you like the trap plays. Hey maybe it will give you an idea of something to do for a clever and patient character.

Spoiler: Character uniqueness and Trap story

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The character does have a bunch more talents due to his race"s". Since the group uses a 3rd party book which makes Planar touch races as templates instead. During character creation you roll a d20 on a nat 20 yo may have one. Then you roll again, the group is generally fine with this. Mark my characters background I got a template free and rolled a 20 during building so i technically have three races and we have a thing about needing to replace spell like abilities on races. One gives me 2 extra nature talents (houri, and yes the character is one of the only male houri), tiefling grants me a destruction talent and Djinni-kin (from the book) grants me creation.

The character is as pacifist as a world with monsters can be. Thats largely because we outright removed alignment and goblins or red dragons could be nice folks. Then again when the young green dragon (cr 8 one) was threatening to eat my bones after killing my conjuration I used Forge Earth to trap me inside its lair and it outside while I set some traps.

The first was a pressureized section due to Forge earth trapping a 10' by 10' by 5' air in between two spots (2' between the first and second forge earths, I used sustenance to fill the space with flour and had a Unseen Servant spread the flour in the air. With a command to use flint and steel to set it off. It did like 4D6 damage.
Next trap used Wondrous Wardrobe to anchor a 10' stone cube with the trigger when dragon passes here fall. Tons of spider silk scarves to hold while waiting. In the moment it was based on the crushing stone trap which does like 16D6 damage. Thats whats in my mole hill now a bunch of stone drop traps.

[Mithril Leaf]

Yep it is a bit of hard mode, it forces you to be clever and have foresight as a player. That said it is a bit of a read but the illusionist guide while not explicitly mentioning mudra has a great deal of concepts that I don't think most people have considered. Specifically those regarding setting up ambushes is a great starting point for developing a strategy for overcoming some of those setbacks.

Example: you are invisible all/most of the time (if you arn't invisible all or most of the time what are you even using mudra for anyways?) Take your time cast your illusions of "nothing" in advance for reduced cost (again using mudra obviously).

When the fight breaks out you have already done the casting now you only need to spend a standard to alter the illusion into distraction/control/damage. Better still have them do it automatically using programed illusions. Congratulations you just set up an ambush delivered hot and fresh to their door in less than a minute instead of having them walk into it.

This makes tricks rough, but guess what you are getting most everything else a discount when out of combat perhaps spend your hoarded spell points on the talented trickster talent and still have enough actions to run around and knock some teeth in.

In regard to the entire party having pretty hefty buffs that has been fixed (at least at low levels of play) pretty much the entire time it has been a drawback feat. It only works on concentration effects. The talent investment for mass/multi target buffs is a good soft cap on what things you can do for the whole party. CL 7 to use alteration on a party of 4 and still losing an action to maintain concentration.

I just realized another loophole, Ill try to have that patched before anyone else notices lol.

Eventually I will give up on trying to make this janky but cool idea work... but today is not that day.

My issue isn't with trying to make it useful. It's that as is you can basically do any instantaneous effect out of combat for free. It's arguably still too strong, although my personal balance point says that it was honestly probably fine initially (before even the ability to use it for effects with hour durations was removed) because in general Spheres is really bad for buffing.

[Dys Dogeater]

The first was a pressureized section due to Forge earth trapping a 10' by 10' by 5' air in between two spots (2' between the first and second forge earths, I used sustenance to fill the space with flour and had a Unseen Servant spread the flour in the air. With a command to use flint and steel to set it off. It did like 4D6 damage.
Next trap used Wondrous Wardrobe to anchor a 10' stone cube with the trigger when dragon passes here fall. Tons of spider silk scarves to hold while waiting. In the moment it was based on the crushing stone trap which does like 16D6 damage. Thats whats in my mole hill now a bunch of stone drop traps.

... Are you me?

Otherwise, I am glad your GM is cool with it. I am not pretending it is a non-issue or passing the buck for it to be handled at the table but generally speaking in a world where people like your character exist it is almost absurd to assume that your talents are unique. You can't possibly be the only "construction mage" and given your level you are likely no where near the best one either. Just like any other job or skill that becomes redundant in an economy pouted by magic or burgeoning technology a character wanting to build walls for a large city would hilariously probably end up dealing with a bunch of senseless bureaucracy and being forced to join a union as a severely underpaid apprentice construction mage because he can only move dirt very slowly.

This is a premise, prompt or opportunity for a unique tale. It makes me sad sometimes to know that people don't embrace these sorts of weird (and largely harmless) things as inspiration and instead view them as unfounded threats in need of repair. Again, kudos to you, kudos to your GM and all hail the mole king!

[khadgar567]

you know mudra is perfect hybrid drawback for both spheres of power and spheres of might since the whole must perform special taolu to cast spell how about also give back martial focus to since the fluff of the drawback perfectly suits it.

[Dys Dogeater]

you know mudra is perfect hybrid drawback for both spheres of power and spheres of might since the whole must perform special taolu to cast spell how about also give back martial focus to since the fluff of the drawback perfectly suits it.

That is a good point, i don't THINK it will break anything and is more than fitting for what mudra is meant to be and exactly who it is supposed to be for. That should be added in one way or another in a few days.

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.

There are plenty of settings where magic (or at least low magic) is ubiquitous. Many modern concepts are replicated in a dark age/Renaissance/industrial revolution setting with magic. In such settings you cant swing a dead caster without hitting 7 other people with at least cantrips. For a few examples that evoke this world concept: Avatar (the cartoon not the CG movie), Full Metal Alchemist, Almost any Piers Anthony Novel, Almost any anime with some combination of magic + school/war/technology/cooking/sports/craftsmanship, and even Harry Potter.

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

You can definitely make money off of magic but if it is that easy to do the payment for "spellcasting services" is disproportionate (it also occurred to me that this is potentially a problem with all spheres of power that are infinite use anyways). Profession is about the quality of your work and attention to detail while performing repetitive tasks even if that repetitive task is bending or breaking the laws of nature with pure will.

Perform (Illusions) is obvious in its intent.

If these are even remotely desired by anyone other than me and not well covered elsewhere, I will add them (likely with feat/talent support). It furthers my general idea of magic as a "tool" and have already touched on these ideas in different less abstracted ways with some of my illusion talents.

At least one idea for every sphere imagined as a mundane "job" (made as meaningless and dead-end as possible for comedic effect):

Illusionists as cinema projectors or serving as a telegraph/radio/phone network operators
Divination/fate is basically the entire stock market
Divination training is required for every detective on the police force
Conjured creatures and familiars run the postal service
Destruction mages reduced to heat and A/C technicians
Destruction mages serving as army reserve enlisted Artillarymen or Gunners mate in the royal navy
Creation mages doing factory line assembly or construction
Nature mages handle farming or professional lawn care
Telekinetic teamsters and mass transit or as elevator attendants
Protection mages obviously run the Occupational Safety and Health Organization
Warp mages handling parcels/pizza/paper delivery
Death sphere used by morticians and funerary services
War mages run the military officers or are weekend shift supervisors at the local chain restaurant
Life sphere nurses and trauma surgeons
Mind sphere therapists and social workers
Life casters being the entire medical and pharma complex
Life sphere as a job site first aid trainer or school nurse
Alteration specialists doing field biology research
Alteration casters shrinking themselves or others down to do micro fabrication and repair
Fate sphere professional gamblers, fortune tellers
Fate sphere public defenders, court bailiffs or any sort of rules oriented soulless bureaucrats.
Enhancement sphere personal trainers or high school gym teachers
Light sphere mages as lamp lighters
Weather sphere mages handling overseas transport with wind power
Weather magic used for agricultural purposes
Dark sphere information security and privacy specialists or as a living sun shade/parasol for self important nobility.

Prestidigitation/cantrips feat for: waitstaff, sanitation engineers, bar tenders, criers/intersection advertisers, lawn care management, dry cleaners, bathroom attendants or refrigerated storage.

[khadgar567]

That is a good point, i don't THINK it will break anything and is more than fitting for what mudra is meant to be and exactly who it is supposed to be for. That should be added in one way or another in a few days.

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.

There are plenty of settings where magic (or at least low magic) is ubiquitous. Many modern concepts are replicated in a dark age/Renaissance/industrial revolution setting with magic. In such settings you cant swing a dead caster without hitting 7 other people with at least cantrips. For a few examples that evoke this world concept: Avatar (the cartoon not the CG movie), Full Metal Alchemist, Almost any Piers Anthony Novel, Almost any anime with some combination of magic + school/war/technology/cooking/sports/craftsmanship, and even Harry Potter.

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

You can definitely make money off of magic but if it is that easy to do the payment for "spellcasting services" is disproportionate (it also occurred to me that this is potentially a problem with all spheres of power that are infinite use anyways). Profession is about the quality of your work and attention to detail while performing repetitive tasks even if that repetitive task is bending or breaking the laws of nature with pure will.

Perform (Illusions) is obvious in its intent.

If these are even remotely desired by anyone other than me and not well covered elsewhere, I will add them (likely with feat/talent support). It furthers my general idea of magic as a "tool" and have already touched on these ideas in different less abstracted ways with some of my illusion talents.

At least one idea for every sphere imagined as a mundane "job" (made as meaningless and dead-end as possible for comedic effect):

Illusionists as cinema projectors or serving as a telegraph/radio/phone network operators
Divination/fate is basically the entire stock market
Divination training is required for every detective on the police force
Conjured creatures and familiars run the postal service
Destruction mages reduced to heat and A/C technicians
Destruction mages serving as army reserve enlisted Artillarymen or Gunners mate in the royal navy
Creation mages doing factory line assembly or construction
Nature mages handle farming or professional lawn care
Telekinetic teamsters and mass transit or as elevator attendants
Protection mages obviously run the Occupational Safety and Health Organization
Warp mages handling parcels/pizza/paper delivery
Death sphere used by morticians and funerary services
War mages run the military officers or are weekend shift supervisors at the local chain restaurant
Life sphere nurses and trauma surgeons
Mind sphere therapists and social workers
Life casters being the entire medical and pharma complex
Life sphere as a job site first aid trainer or school nurse
Alteration specialists doing field biology research
Alteration casters shrinking themselves or others down to do micro fabrication and repair
Fate sphere professional gamblers, fortune tellers
Fate sphere public defenders, court bailiffs or any sort of rules oriented soulless bureaucrats.
Enhancement sphere personal trainers or high school gym teachers
Light sphere mages as lamp lighters
Weather sphere mages handling overseas transport with wind power
Weather magic used for agricultural purposes
Dark sphere information security and privacy specialists or as a living sun shade/parasol for self important nobility.

Prestidigitation/cantrips feat for: waitstaff, sanitation engineers, bar tenders, criers/intersection advertisers, lawn care management, dry cleaners, bathroom attendants or refrigerated storage.

And they say tipptyverse is imposible.

[Mehangel]

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

The problem with writing up a new category for the Perform skill is that classes like Bard would also deserve to have corresponding options when it comes to it (mainly when it comes to versatile performance). Also, I don't think I would call the category (illusions), but rather instead be called (stage magic). I would then perhaps have versatile performance be tied to Use Magic Device (who knew that the wand's verbal activation was hokus pokus or abra kadabra?).

Profession as far as I can tell have no such class feature and thus are not so limited in such regard (I have no problem with people creating new categories for the Profession skill).

[Dys Dogeater]

And they say tipptyverse is imposible.

Is that a vote for or against?

Also I had to look that up and I am happy to know that I am not the only one who has contemplated the implications of magic being around from the dawn of time and how that would render society completely alien to anything we know or understand.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well I wouldn't mind more worldbuilding options.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.

It's not exactly a new or unique idea, but more importantly I'm not really sure how it all fits in the illusion handbook (as it's more of a general topic). It's already quite large and has some non-illusion stuff in it as it is, adding a whole sort of worldbuilding section seems over the top. Don't go trying to do too much and feature creep and bloat the book, stay focused and refine what you already have to make it as good as it can be.

[Mehangel]

It's not exactly a new or unique idea, but more importantly I'm not really sure how it all fits in the illusion handbook (as it's more of a general topic). It's already quite large and has some non-illusion stuff in it as it is, adding a whole sort of worldbuilding section seems over the top. Don't go trying to do too much and feature creep and bloat the book, stay focused and refine what you already have to make it as good as it can be.

This is a very good point, the handbook is already massive enough as it is and should remain focused in the Illusion sphere.

[Dys Dogeater]

Good point. Going down my own weird rabbit holes is enough, no need to take others down with me.

[khadgar567]

Is that a vote for or against?

Also I had to look that up and I am happy to know that I am not the only one who has contemplated the implications of magic being around from the dawn of time and how that would render society completely alien to anything we know or understand.

nope but thats how you start to build tipptyverse by making magic so common that once in a blue moon non magic guy basicly screwed. tippty verse in your style uses warp to pair the cities and use all the other spheres to automatize the every need of the magical city until you can reilably pull 20th level camping in just the same city. like nature and weather sphere to keep city fed.

[EldritchWeaver]

(To Saffron-sama:)

... Are you me?

Uses the same avatar - could be a second account of Dys. :P

[Dys Dogeater]

So some of the questions/concerns I am getting on the document are along the lines of why is this in an illusion handbook? I figured while I was answering that I would take the opportunity to expound upon some of my goals in this project as well as my personal and design philosophy. So wall of text incoming, you have been warned. (also, I'm sorry)

Most of the things you find and wonder if they belong are usually there for one or more of the following reasons:

1)It is part of something else more specifically related to illusion. Generally this is a result of something that was part of a larger package with an overall theme of illusion that was broken down into smaller parts to allow it to be applied in other ways or be built off by later work. I like options more than I like packages and that is why I have more feats and talents than the other books but less archetypes. If at all possible I will break things down to the smallest constituent parts.

2)It is a expanding or clarifying what I think illusion can or should be.

3)It is something I think illusion should not be. Traditionally, however it is and because of that alone still deserves options, attention or expansion. Some of the customarily illusion spells do not mesh well with (what I hope are) improvements to consistency. Still, I feel it would be a disservice in not expanding much loved staples. Conversely it would also be a disservice to go tampering too much with the classics to make them fit within the bigger picture.

4)It is in the spirit of illusion in that it is a very versatile but lower powered concept that tests player skill and in the moment problem solving more than brute force or character building. These things still apply to and can be used with illusions, (generally with great synergy) but also have far broader applications.

Those things said "why?" and "should it be?" are different questions and I am as always grateful for your help in determining the latter.

With regard to that, play tester Paul Fossgreen brings up a very legitimate concern when he stated:

"... it modifies a sense" seems like a huge stretch to justify illusion getting even more toys. I get how illusion can affect a sense so you perceive less (Silence/Invisibility) or make you perceive more than what is there (classic illusionary wall), but this is making your sense better at what it already does instead of altering what input it gets in the first place...

in reference to the Amplify Senses talent. Concerns such as this also apply to other talents that add a new functionality or application that cannot be (obviously) compared to spells and abilities that already exist.

The difference between "stretching" to justify and "expanding" an idea is always a hard call based largely on personal opinion and i would like to hear all of your opinions about where the limit is but more importantly where it should be.

A few personal opinions on illusion:

I feel that if it has anything to do with the empirical, sensation or observation there is a place for it in illusion.

Given, "anything to do with the empirical, sensation or observation" covers a lot and admittedly has a great deal of overlap with many if not all other spheres. My feeling on Illusion is and always has been a multi tool that lets you fake your way through or half-ass anything/everything if you are clever enough to figure out how to apply it.

Illusion to even remotely function in the variety of ways it needs to must also very high fluff and presumptive in implementation. Unfortunately it is also often presumptive in (lack of) mechanical representation.

Spoiler: I am trying to fix or at least minimize SOME of this problem

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For examples of things frequently assumed and have no existing comprehensive guidelines for look at the "Purpose Driven Figments" suggestion in the illusionist guide.

The full version is too much for here, I litterally have a 6 page long document just for:
A rambling diatribe about a significant percentage of all illusions being just RaI fluff (incredibly lite on the "R")
Things that shouldn't be illusions but are.
Things that should be illusions but aren't.
Assumptions that must be made for illusions to work.
All the assumptions that I (and I think most people) make without realizing.

I know that using fluff to justify something is a weak position, but also really all I have to work with in most cases regarding illusion.

Illusions definitely can create, conceal, distort and alter sensations. Most would agree that this is fair game.

But can they...

Spoiler: Move a sensation to a different location?

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Yes. Ventriloquism, Shifted Steps, Displacement, Misdirection.

Spoiler: Multiply, amplify or copy a sensation?

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Yes. Mirror Image, Clarion Call, Greater Magic Aura, Project Image.

Spoiler: Use one sensation to affect another?

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Yes. Color Spray, Wall of Nausea, Phantasmal Killer, Lunar Veil, Illusory Poison

Spoiler: Confuse the boundary between two sensations of the same type?

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Yes. Blend, Blur

Spoiler: Change one type of sensation into a different type?

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Yes (by way of trigger). Magic Mouth, Programed Image

There is definitely a stretch here but I don't think it is "huge". That stretch (or expansion) is ultimately:
1) None of the cited spells that move sensations bring them closer only away from something.
2) None of the cited spells that multiply/amplify a sensation except Project Image do so in a "directed" or "targeted" way.

But back to the more specific concern: do you feel "reverse/inverted ventriloquism/shifted steps/clarion call/project image" is not within the powers of illusion? Why not? If it is within the powers of illusion what (if any) mechanical benefit would that grant?

Amplify senses is my answer to those questions.

As far as synesthesia that is strangely enough, nothing new. Just more sensible rules for a clever application (or munchkin) use of magic mouth/programed image that alerted you to things even though you personally have no actual way of being aware of them... because magic.

[khadgar567]

Snip

well thanks for the heart to heart talk mate

[Dys Dogeater]

well thanks for the heart to heart talk mate

Peace among worlds to you too, bro.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hmmmmmmmm...

Is there any way to word Mudra that would enable using it with things like Mystic Combats? There's probably other combat class features that would also fit.

[Dys Dogeater]

Hmmmmmmmm...

Is there any way to word Mudra that would enable using it with things like Mystic Combats? There's probably other combat class features that would also fit.

I am uncharacteristically busy as of late but slowly and surely making adjustments to things and going to apply them all at once.

Mudra seems to be a major sticking point and the criticism is fair so I am in the process of making changes to it already. I think the new version I am working on would have better synergy with mystic combat as well as anything and everything that runs on SP while being more thematically relevant. I have to accept that this requires removing the infinite use part (I know that infinite use was the best part but even I have to recognize that a cool idea is no excuse to skirt balance).

Is there anything specific you had in mind that you would like me to take into account while I prep for the rework?