The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    YossarianLives's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    I chose the players I did because you created characters who I thought would interact with the other party members in unique and interesting ways. Characters who would freshen things up, offer a different worldview or playstyle. All the best games I've been involved in have had internal struggle, heroes who don't always get along but put aside their differences in the face of a greater threat. Sometimes they make silly mistakes that jeopardize the safety of the party, but it all turns out okay in the end, and the other players forgive them. Because we're a bunch of fully-grown humans playing make believe, and really all that matters is that we can have fun together.

    I have no problem with in-character disagreements, I actually quite like them. But you really don't need to take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Either we find a compromise, or I walk away.
    I think you're right, but compromises require both sides to make concessions.

    Really, Rax hit the nail on the head with his last post. I have no problem with you playing a thief, and if the other players are absolutely 100% unwilling to tolerate a character with different values than them - that's their problem. But it sounds like you're saying: "I should be able to openly commit crimes in front of law enforcement officers, and expect no repercussions." Like, seriously? If that's your attitude I'm not surprised none of your games with Rakash have lasted long.

    But I think we can come to a compromise. You seem like a genuinely nice person, and I don't want to lose you. I think these suggestions are perfectly reasonable:
    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    What would I consider to be acceptable targets for gratuitous theft, IC and OOC?
    1. Looting the corpses of fallen enemies is perfectly okay.
    2. Looting the lairs of anyone clearly identified as an enemy of the city is okay. At present, that would be just the demons invading the city.
    3. Recovering items from inside Black Shingle that are incidental to any specific items we may be sent to retrieve is also fine. It's a war zone, and mercenaries can be expected to loot.
    4. Stealing from ordinary citizens in a way that can't be traced back to the party or the Guard is fine, but I'd very much appreciate it if that could be handled off-screen. It's of no interest to me personally to read about, and I'd prefer it if the game could stay focused on the main events.
    Or, you know, you could just not steal in plain view of the other party members who you know are going to disapprove.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    I think it's a bit more serious than that. We're looking for leads in unraveling a tangle that threatens the city with either a Demonic invasion or occupation by a murderous theocracy. Any piece of unshared information or item surreptitiously pocketed could be a critical loss. And he's just told us he doesn't care about that.

    The rest of us have made sacrifices, in their builds or in their equipment choices, to compromise our personal benefit and work towards the goal of not getting the city, our families, and everyone else in it killed or enslaved. And now we've got someone blithely announcing he's prepared to screw us over for his own personal gain and expects us to go along with it.

    Put it bluntly, Kaptain Keen; Rakash's personal ambitions are not relevant or important to us. Nor should they be. If we don't succeed, if you screw this up for us with your thieving one way or the other, there's an excellent chance there won't be a "society" left for Rakash to join.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    To be honest, the compromise you seem to be offering is that everyone else should adapt their characters to work with yours or you'll walk. That's less of a compromise than an ultimatum, even if it's a good natured one.
    See - I was waiting for this one, because it's such an obvious argument. It just isn't true, is all.

    Here's what it is: This is a game. We're having fun. As long as fun is had by all, there really isn't any cause to create a problem that isn't really there.

    You are chosing to make an issue of this. You don't need to. No one is forcing you - only yourselves. You are 100% free to handle your reactions to in any way you see fit. You are picking the one way that requires confrontation, and the one way that requires me to change my play - and I'm saying no.

    I compare games to movies. That's what we're trying to emulate, as far as I'm concerned. With a bit of time on the internet, I could name you 100 movies about a rogueish character and a lawful character, and how they don't get along but still produce results - and need each other. That's what I want to play.

    I do not want to play the movie where the lawful guy bulles the rogueish guy to also be lawful. Then I simply walk.

    And ... that's as much discussion as I feel the topic requires. If it isn't acceptable, I'm out. Like I said, no hard feelings, Yossarion brought up the problem before I even joined, it was a risk. But I'm not changing the character. Sorry guys.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by YossarianLives View Post
    Or, you know, you could just not steal in plain view of the other party members who you know are going to disapprove.
    Oh - I wanted to add: This is why I roll sleight of hand. Obviously, that's not enough.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    See - I was waiting for this one, because it's such an obvious argument. It just isn't true, is all.

    Here's what it is: This is a game. We're having fun. As long as fun is had by all, there really isn't any cause to create a problem that isn't really there.

    You are chosing to make an issue of this. You don't need to. No one is forcing you - only yourselves. You are 100% free to handle your reactions to in any way you see fit. You are picking the one way that requires confrontation, and the one way that requires me to change my play - and I'm saying no.

    I compare games to movies. That's what we're trying to emulate, as far as I'm concerned. With a bit of time on the internet, I could name you 100 movies about a rogueish character and a lawful character, and how they don't get along but still produce results - and need each other. That's what I want to play.

    I do not want to play the movie where the lawful guy bulles the rogueish guy to also be lawful. Then I simply walk.

    And ... that's as much discussion as I feel the topic requires. If it isn't acceptable, I'm out. Like I said, no hard feelings, Yossarion brought up the problem before I even joined, it was a risk. But I'm not changing the character. Sorry guys.
    Yes, it's a game, and the objective is for fun to be had by all. In this case, the way you choose to play your character is reducing the fun for others, and therefore fun isn't being had by all.

    Could those who find it difficult to accept your character exactly as you want to play him choose not to make an issue of it? Certainly - but only by making what they feel are difficult or unacceptable alterations to their own characters. So you're effectively insisting that everyone else should get over themselves, while not being willing to do anything to make that a little easier. That's not exactly conducive to getting people to see things your way.

    As for the movie comparison... Most such movies I've seen feature the criminally inclined partner eventually putting their larcenous activities on hold to deal with whatever crisis is the main point of the movie. And in this game, we're starting out in the middle of that crisis, so if it's a movie script you want to act out, then now would be the time for Rakash to agree to (temporarily) set aside his compulsive stealing and engage with the main show.

    Finally, I didn't join the game to act out a buddy movie. I though the concept - a crisis involving demonic invasion and political intrigue - seemed interesting, and that's what I want to spend my time exploring. Hence the suggestion that you do your thing, but in a fashion that doesn't get in the way of the game's main focus or force unnecessary conflict with other characters.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    Yes, it's a game, and the objective is for fun to be had by all. In this case, the way you choose to play your character is reducing the fun for others, and therefore fun isn't being had by all.
    Is that the case, though? Far as I've seen, everyone who has voiced anything on that topic - has said they find Rakash amusing.

    I want to ask something. Please consider it - before telling me I'm completely wrong.

    Are you sure this is a character problem at all?

    Rakash has stolen precisely twice. Now, my bit towards compromise is that I've hidding the theft - both times.

    First time, Rakash very deliberately waited for everyone to pass, before nicking the spoons.

    Second time, I rolled sleight of hand, before looting the cabinet. A natural 20, no less. I also made a firebomb from one of the bottles - which I even stated I'm not going to use, because .... it's to cover for the theft.

    The argument might well be made that none of the other characters know anything about Rakash's long fingers.

    So ... please.

    Consider that - what I'm being asked to do in order to compromise ..... I'm already doing.

    And ask yourselves whether your characters even know. Maybe even whether they'd tolerate it if they did. I'm sure, compared to demonic invasion a bit of thievery is a lesser evil.

    But as I've said all along. If this problem is one that cannot be resolved - I'll just leave.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Is that the case, though? Far as I've seen, everyone who has voiced anything on that topic - has said they find Rakash amusing.
    Unless I've missed something, I've only seen Blackwing and Marlowe comment on Rakash's thievery after you yourself brought it up. Of the two, Blackwing has said that he finds the interactions between you amusing, but he also said that Fion will have a very difficult time ignoring the stealing. As far as I can tell, Marlowe has only weighed in to say that Rakash's thievery at the house is a major problem - no comment on whether it's amusing or not.

    For my part, I find the thieving dull OOC, but that's not reason enough to ask you to stop completely, because - as you say - you've only done it a couple of times so for. It can become a problem over time if, for instance, Fion makes good on frisking you after every scene (you know, because he's playing his character) or if I decide that Sarrazin sees Rakash as a security issue. Because if I then decide to play my character to the hilt, Rakash is likely to end up dead in a ditch. And though I don't know what Avita will do, you may have noticed that Marlowe has already had her put one PC in prison when he crossed her red lines (not to mention killing another one for becoming a burden... or possibly a mercy killing).

    Avoiding such conflicts of interest is why I suggested multiple ways in which Rakash can loot away without it ever being a problem either IC or OOC for me, and hopefully everyone else.

    As for whether our characters notice it or not? As Blackwing said - we can all see you sniffing around the house and in at least one IC post Rakash made it clear that he wants to scout out the house for objects of value. That's the one that then had Fion replying that we're here to investigate, not steal. So as far as I'm concerned, you've already set the scene for anyone who cares to be eternally suspicious of what Rakash is doing when he isn't being watched.

    So my counter-question to you is - why is it so important for you to mix in descriptions of Rakash stealing stuff in the IC posts? And why is it an unacceptable breach of character for Rakash to occasionally restrain his larcenous impulses?

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    So my counter-question to you is - why is it so important for you to mix in descriptions of Rakash stealing stuff in the IC posts? And why is it an unacceptable breach of character for Rakash to occasionally restrain his larcenous impulses?
    Because that's the character I'm playing. And ... honestly, none of the PC's know. Everyone is sniffing about the house. It's literally what we're there for.

    There are so many fully functional ways to handle this IC. Most of them will be fun.

    You are chosing to make this an issue.

    And I'm replying that if it's such a problem, I'll go.

    But you're losing a player because of an alignment issue. I don't know what more to say about that.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    But you're losing a player because of an alignment issue. I don't know what more to say about that.
    From my perspective we would be losing a player over irreconcilable differences of opinion on what constitutes appropriate behaviour in a group activity. It's got nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with your stated unwillingness to compromise the least part of your vision of your character, while at the same time demanding that anyone who has a problem with your character should adjust their own character's reactions to not make it an issue. If you can't see how that might be troubling to others in a group activity, I don't know what more to say either.

    Just to be clear - you seem like a good roleplayer and I bear you no ill will as a player. I'm not angry or offended - in fact, I appreciate that we've been able to have this discussion without tempers fraying. To me, our disagreements seem minor, so I find it hard to fathom why it's impossible for you to make some small concessions in order to make it easier for the group to operate without unneeded friction. I really don't see how Rakash would be any less Rakash for occasionally exercising some judgement in when to steal.

    With that, I'll rest my case. And please remember, I'm ultimately only speaking for myself in this discussion. If others in the group who've expressed misgivings agree to adapt their characters to accommodate Rakash, I'll certainly do the same with no hard feelings.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Your concession to compromise: Zip
    My concession to compromise: I've done everything in my power to hide both of the times Rakash has stolen anything. Frankly, none of the other characters has any idea it's taken place. Quite the opposite - you, the player, are simply trying to bully this through, and not succeeding.

    I'm out. Bye. Enjoy the game. Apologies to those not part of this meaningless dispute, and to Yossarian for being an involuntary disturbance in your game.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Thank you, Rax; for being a lot more polite than I would have been.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Pretty much, i wasnt against him being a thief, but he said it out loud and in front of a LG Crusader of Wee Jas, a church only slightly less Lawful than St Cuthbert.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Avita was prepared to turn a blind eye, simply because as a known traitor Parker's property is presumably forfeit to the state and he's acting as an (inadequately) paid state employee. Sure, it would look bad for the Guard flogging off Parker's spoons on the sly but hell; Avita's had Guard try to murder her. She's gone well past worrying about institutional optics.

    And then he starts saying he's going to filch magic items after he's been specifically told that's what we're looking for to try to find a lead and THAT'S a serious problem.

    Then, after he essentially waves all this in our faces, we get this fatuous, self-entitled tantrum.

    Oh well. An insufferably self-centered klepto with minimal Search skills sounds like the sort of problem that'll take care of itself soon enough.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Well, it's a shame it ended the way it did. It may be that we dodged the bullet in terms of future disputes, but Kaptain Keen leaving because he felt bullied is still an unfortunate failure of communication. Plus, the party is once again short a scout/trapfinder/lockpicker.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Well, if wkwkwkwkwkwkwk1 eventually gets back, we'll have a Raven. That's a scout.

    As for trapfinding; well. Rakash was pants at that anyway.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    Well, it's a shame it ended the way it did. It may be that we dodged the bullet in terms of future disputes, but Kaptain Keen leaving because he felt bullied is still an unfortunate failure of communication. Plus, the party is once again short a scout/trapfinder/lockpicker.
    We just need to get Avita a Summon Undead wand so we can just throw a Kobold Skeleton at traps, as for Lockpick, i have that in the form of Mountain Hammer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Well, if wkwkwkwkwkwkwk1 eventually gets back, we'll have a Raven. That's a scout.
    About that. I haven't studied all the IC and OOC threads in detail, so inquiring minds want to know - how come wkwkwkwkwkwkwk1 isn't posting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rax View Post
    About that. I haven't studied all the IC and OOC threads in detail, so inquiring minds want to know - how come wkwkwkwkwkwkwk1 isn't posting?
    Real life stuff. He rarely post nowadays.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    He took some weeks off to study for his finals, leaving his character to spend the day summoning a familiar. That was months ago, although now and then he's popped in to say he's still paying attention.

    In fairness, this "day" is taking a long time and proving quite busy. Six encounters and a lot of running around and chit-chatting so far.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Well, that happened. I'm genuinely sorry to lose Kaptin Keen but it seems pretty clear that he wasn't open to adjusting his character to fit the game. Unfortunate but not surprising - thanks, Rax, for trying to reason with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Thank you, Rax; for being a lot more polite than I would have been.
    Quoted for truth.

    Yeah, this in-game day has lasted for almost six real life months. It's a little ridiculous.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Now this is familiar. We're doing Good-Cop Bad-Cop.

    Avita's going to try "Good Cop", in some conversation at some point but she's tired and battered and generally seething and has no reason to be remotely pleasant to this guy.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    I'm opening another play tonight. My daily post will be delayed or nonexistent. Sorry folks.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Now this is familiar. We're doing Good-Cop Bad-Cop.
    Kinda sorta. Sarrazin thinks that Laelth must be desperate to be looking for a deal when the demons seem to hold the upper hand. That makes him willing to entertain the possibility of a temporary truce if Laelth can offer convincing reasons for it. But first, he's going to have to offer some genuine proof of his good faith, starting with him answering Sarrazin's questions about the invasion in a truthful manner. And of course, if Laelth expects any of us to try and sell a truce or alliance to any higher ups, he's going to have to go all in on the truth and honesty front, as well as deliver any assurances we demand to ensure that he sticks to the agreement. And after all that, Sarrazin is still 99% certain that Laelth will try to betray us eventually, so this will all end in blood, one way or another. But the more information we can extract from Laelth before that happens (or any negotiations collapse) the better off we'll be.

    If Avita wants to interject in the conversation to play the bad cop, that's fine with me though.

    BTW, has Avita ever let on to anyone (including Laelth) that she speaks Abyssal?

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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    We don't have the authority to agree to any truce, and doing so would play right into the hands of the other invaders.

    Of course, if the whole idea is just to ply him with reason and snark so he gets tetchy and lets slip some info, that's fine.

    BTW, has Avita ever let on to anyone (including Laelth) that she speaks Abyssal?
    There's a problem with that. Avita didn't start knowing Abyssal. She paid the points to learn it last time we leveled up. That was this morning. She's had less than 24 hours exposure to the language and no time to really learn it. It's a little hard for me to figure how this sort of thing works in a campaign that's had no downtime for quite a while.

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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    We don't have the authority to agree to any truce, and doing so would play right into the hands of the other invaders.
    I think we can cross that bridge when we come to it. What's important right now is that Laelth says he wants to cut a deal, and that gives us leverage to demand answers.

    Additionally, if Laelth really believes that we have the authority to deal on behalf of the city, which I think is unlikely, then I see no reason not to string him along for now. If he just wants something from us, personally, then we'll have to evaluate his deal very carefully, so as not to end up in bad spot ourselves. And if he does cough up convincing information that proves that the city needs to ally itself with the invaders, then we can bring that up with the higher ups. But for now, the main plan is to get him talking and try to learn more about what's really going on.

    And just to add some IC perspective - Sarrazin's mission is to get rid of the demons. The method isn't hugely important - if that gets accomplished by them agreeing to go back home voluntarily, that works just as well as defeating them in battle. Of course, since Hextor is Sarrazin's quest giver, a solution that involves at least some bloodshed is preferred.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Gah, sorry for disappearing. I ran into some internet connection troubles last night and couldn't get it going until this morning.

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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Are...are the demons Commies?
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    It would appear so.

    I'd love to get an IC post up, but I need to get to bed. I expect to be able to post tomorrow evening though. (I.e. within 16-24 hours, what with work coming before play and all)

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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    The funny thing is I have (had? Don't recall whether I wrote it thanks to the sheet purge) a proto-backstory for Sarim where his clan is a sort of commune. Nothing advanced, just a number of orcs, dwarves, and maybe others working for each other and themselves, with the only caveat being the clan leader who was really only there to spearhead war efforts in emergencies. The dwarf clan was semi-rich from inheritance and the orc clan were very successful raiders, so after they united they trade with outsiders via gold but otherwise don't bother with money.
    Last edited by Kushina43; 2018-05-03 at 08:58 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: The Black Shingle Fiasco (OOC) II: The Second One

    Avita already knows the Wheelers are attacking using slave soldiers with little choice in the matter, which undermines his stance a bit...

    But Avita is working on the basis of not giving HIM anything. Including the knowledge of the stuff we know that we don't know he knows we know.

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