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    Default Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Paizo just released another blog post about rules changes for Pathfinder 2. In the blog post, they reveal a "new" idea that has been used in other non-D&D systems, and that has been proposed for 3.5 variants before. Each check, rather than being a success or failure, can be a critical success, success, failure, or critical failure. The blog post is sparse on details: they give a few examples of critical successes and failures for abilities that don't do damage, though without saying what the normal success condition would be. There is a bunch of grandiose language about how great the new system is going to be without getting bogged down by pesky things like how the new system actually works. On the flip side, in some cases Mark Seifter has given specifics in the thread in response to people's questions, making the thread slightly more informative than the actual blog.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    I don't think the mods have given us the go-ahead to continue discussing P2 here since the last thread got locked yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I don't think the mods have given us the go-ahead to continue discussing P2 here since the last thread got locked yet.
    I thought it got locked because it devolved into personal attacks. It was at least 20 pages before then.

    I'm leery on critical failures for the usual reasons. It doesn't matter the bad guys take double damage for rolling a 1 saving against Fireball. They were going to die anyway. A PC taking double damage is a big deal. Critical success meaning no damage even for those without evasion is nice, but I'm not sure it's a fair trade. Spells having partial results even on a successful save could make them more powerful than now, but the devil is in the details. I do appreciate they did not give a critical failure for rolling a 1 on an attack roll. Also good to see fighters get minimum damage anyway on a failure to hit. If only fighters get that it's a Nice Thing.
    Last edited by Pex; 2018-03-30 at 09:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Sheriff: I guess this is fine, but keep it civil.
    Forum Rules

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I thought it got locked because it devolved into personal attacks. It was at least 20 pages before then.

    I'm leery on critical failures for the usual reasons. It doesn't matter the bad guys take double damage for rolling a 1 saving against Fireball. They were going to die anyway. A PC taking double damage is a big deal. Critical success meaning no damage even for those without evasion is nice, but I'm not sure it's a fair trade. Spells having partial results even on a successful save could make them more powerful than now, but the devil is in the details. I do appreciate they did not give a critical failure for rolling a 1 on an attack roll. Also good to see fighters get minimum damage anyway on a failure to hit. If only fighters get that it's a Nice Thing.
    The rule of thumb seems to be that the critical failure effect is about as bad as the 3e effect, at least for save-or-lose and save-or-die effects.

    Are they suggesting that they've brought in automatic success and failures for skill checks, though? Because that is potentially kind of gross (it definitely would be gross in most games, but if my guesses about the overall idea behind the game are correct, then it should probably be fine).
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2018-03-31 at 04:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude View Post
    Sheriff: I guess this is fine, but keep it civil.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Paizo just released another blog post about rules changes for Pathfinder 2. In the blog post, they reveal a "new" idea that has been used in other non-D&D systems, and that has been proposed for 3.5 variants before. Each check, rather than being a success or failure, can be a critical success, success, failure, or critical failure. The blog post is sparse on details: they give a few examples of critical successes and failures for abilities that don't do damage, though without saying what the normal success condition would be. There is a bunch of grandiose language about how great the new system is going to be without getting bogged down by pesky things like how the new system actually works. On the flip side, in some cases Mark Seifter has given specifics in the thread in response to people's questions, making the thread slightly more informative than the actual blog.
    I'm definitely an advocate for "degrees of success." The rest will depend on the details. For example, Pathfinder had very few true "save or die" effects - about the only one I think was in core was Phantasmal Killer, which required multiple failures + SR on top of being foiled by both fear immunity and True Seeing. So I doubt they'll be bringing true SoDs back since they clearly disliked them. But if they do make critical failures have a steep penalty like death, I hope that there'll be a hero point mechanic (like, well, hero points, or Starfinder's Resolve) that players can use to negate them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    I'm using more systems that use margin of failures/success based on DC/TN than the raw binary result system that is used in d20 and I really enjoy that more (example: TN is 20, up to 5 under is "yes, but", below that is "failure", then "critical failure". Up to 5 above is "Yes", above that is "Yes, and".). That actually gives a real depth to how you allocate skill points and what "mastery" means.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    I like the degrees of success. As they point out, it was already part of the game in numerous places (e.g. crit-fail a climb check means you fall down) but in an inconsistent way, so it makes sense to codify it. It's also nice that crits will happen noticeably more often, instead of being a once-in-a-blue-moon occurence. And you'll crit more often against weaker enemies, which is also fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Are they suggesting that they've brought in automatic success and failures for skill checks, though? Because that is potentially kind of gross.
    The comments section is very explicit on the fact that you REALLY cannot e.g. jump to the moon with an athletics check, or convince the king to give the kingdom to you with a bluff check, not even if you roll a natural 20.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    This sounds like a promising enough development. It's nice to hear that Paizo is finally embracing cutting edge 1990's mechanics like this. It would be nice if them learning from the rest of the industry extended into this millennia, but it's still basically D&D and that's too much to ask for.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    This sounds like a promising enough development. It's nice to hear that Paizo is finally embracing cutting edge 1990's mechanics like this. It would be nice if them learning from the rest of the industry extended into this millennia, but it's still basically D&D and that's too much to ask for.
    Yeah, the tradition of taking +10 years old ideas and introducing them as their fresh new developments is strong. But one takes what one can get here.

    That said, considering how much resistance there was towards damage on a miss during the 5e playtest, I do wonder what the reaction will be here.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Spells having partial results even on a successful save could make them more powerful than now, but the devil is in the details.
    I'd like to see spells having a range of results depending on the degree by which the save was passed/failed. Something like:

    Exceeded save DC by X or more: No effect
    Exceeded save DC by 0 to [X-1]: Partial effect
    Failed save DC by 1 to [X-1]: Normal effect
    Failed save DC by X or more: Improved/maximum effect
    Last edited by TheIronGolem; 2018-03-31 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Its nice AGAIN, but I dislike the execution AGAIN.

    I think the degrees of success thing was done better in M&M 3e at least in the telling of information sort of way.

    M&M was also allot better in its scaling in the way that Pathfinder Wants.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm definitely an advocate for "degrees of success." The rest will depend on the details. For example, Pathfinder had very few true "save or die" effects - about the only one I think was in core was Phantasmal Killer, which required multiple failures + SR on top of being foiled by both fear immunity and True Seeing. So I doubt they'll be bringing true SoDs back since they clearly disliked them. But if they do make critical failures have a steep penalty like death, I hope that there'll be a hero point mechanic (like, well, hero points, or Starfinder's Resolve) that players can use to negate them.
    Yeah. That implied Feeblemind crit fail looks pretty nasty. Strike me up for another one that likes the change to the engine. On a personal note, this also screws over one of my player's build using a naked invulnerable rager, so on a petty note I very much enjoy it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude View Post
    Sheriff: I guess this is fine, but keep it civil.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Also good to see fighters get minimum damage anyway on a failure to hit. If only fighters get that it's a Nice Thing.
    Is it? I mean, it's just damage. Everyone in PF1 gets damage, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case in Pathfinder 2. Dealing hit point damage is not a "Nice Thing" that makes fighters stand out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    This sounds like a promising enough development. It's nice to hear that Paizo is finally embracing cutting edge 1990's mechanics like this. It would be nice if them learning from the rest of the industry extended into this millennia, but it's still basically D&D and that's too much to ask for.
    I agree. Different levels of success is a good feature, and it is nice to see Pathfinder getting what other systems have had for decades.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    That said, considering how much resistance there was towards damage on a miss during the 5e playtest, I do wonder what the reaction will be here.
    That it still misses on a critical failure potentially mitigates a lot of these, particularly given the fail by 10 clause - something with truly amazing AC can still dodge reliably.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Much like everything else we know about Pathfinder 2E, it is an attractive concept, but everything depends on the execution.

    It's caused me to pull out my notes for a rework of the Sleep spell, which is way out there on the well-known and poorly-balanced/poorly-scaling things in the game. It's an encounter-ender at 1st level, an AoE that might get a lucky roll and take down an enemy at 3rd-4th level, and it's a complete waste above about 5th level. On top of that, it's a save-or-die.

    So great, critical fail-fail-save-critical save seems like a better setup. Fail by 10, target is down. Fail by 1, target is debuffed a lot. Pass by 1, target is debuffed a little. Pass by 10, no effect. But given the structure of the math, I suspect that at any given level, only 2 of those options are real possibilities. Is that what we're going for?

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    That it still misses on a critical failure potentially mitigates a lot of these, particularly given the fail by 10 clause - something with truly amazing AC can still dodge reliably.
    It's also apparently a "mid level" fighter trick, rather than something you can have early on. So I guess it might mollify those who'd find it grossly unrealistic. Giving non-spellcasting types new things but adding caveats and catches seems to be going strong.
    Last edited by Morty; 2018-04-01 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It's also apparently a "mid level" fighter trick, rather than something you can have early on. So I guess it might mollify those who'd find it grossly unrealistic. Giving non-spellcasting types new things but adding caveats and catches seems to be going strong.
    An important difference is that 4E and 5E worded it as "damage whenever you miss", whereas P2 words it as "turning some misses into glancing blows instead". In terms of verisimilitude, the latter is better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronGolem View Post
    I'd like to see spells having a range of results depending on the degree by which the save was passed/failed. Something like:

    Exceeded save DC by X or more: No effect
    Exceeded save DC by 0 to [X-1]: Partial effect
    Failed save DC by 1 to [X-1]: Normal effect
    Failed save DC by X or more: Improved/maximum effect
    I would be annoyed if I made my save against a spell I still lose something, as in the example given of making the save against Domination still costs me an action. I know they mean from the three actions model they're using, but the act of saving against the spell means I can't use an ability that costs three actions or do a two action cost ability but cannot do a one action cost I also wanted to do. It's a new perspective, and at first glance it's a bother.

    Being my own devil's advocate, it does sort of already exist. Damage spells that use reflex saves give half damage upon a successful save. Some high level spells do something even when making a fortitude or will save. This could be the same thing worded differently, so it looks worse on paper than it is in reality. I'm willing to not condemn it right now and wait until we get the whole picture when it's released. It might be ok for me depending on the details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I would be annoyed if I made my save against a spell I still lose something, as in the example given of making the save against Domination still costs me an action. I know they mean from the three actions model they're using, but the act of saving against the spell means I can't use an ability that costs three actions or do a two action cost ability but cannot do a one action cost I also wanted to do. It's a new perspective, and at first glance it's a bother.

    Being my own devil's advocate, it does sort of already exist. Damage spells that use reflex saves give half damage upon a successful save. Some high level spells do something even when making a fortitude or will save. This could be the same thing worded differently, so it looks worse on paper than it is in reality. I'm willing to not condemn it right now and wait until we get the whole picture when it's released. It might be ok for me depending on the details.
    Well, I would certainly want to see things like Mettle and Evasion brought over to PF2, for exactly those reasons. Either by following the current model of "no partial effect on a successful save", or by adjusting the thresholds of where the partial/improved effects hit.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Is it? I mean, it's just damage. Everyone in PF1 gets damage, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case in Pathfinder 2. Dealing hit point damage is not a "Nice Thing" that makes fighters stand out.
    This. So much.

    Not that this necessarily means the system's off, but I'm worried we haven't seen anything that really makes the above seem a less likely issue in P2. Because from what I can tell so far, aside from a few comments on moving in the new action system, instead literally everything we've seen connected to the fighter or martial combat in general is about hp damage. Lots about how to deal it in general - weapon types, Power Attack, critical success and failure - plus quite a lot about how to deal it during your turn, along with a few things about how to deal it outside your turn and how to avoid it.

    And again, I'm simply hoping future reveals on for example "Combat Maneuvers that Rock" will turn this impression on its head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It's also apparently a "mid level" fighter trick, rather than something you can have early on. So I guess it might mollify those who'd find it grossly unrealistic. Giving non-spellcasting types new things but adding caveats and catches seems to be going strong.
    Yeah. And again, so far all those new things also boil down to basically the same thing. This seemingly unintended "design theme" is by far the most important reason why 3.5 and PF martials in general have very little tactical depth and versatility in combat. If the PDT actually is having issues with providing martial combat with meaningful mechanical differentiation (between classes, combat styles, builds, rounds, turns, actions, etc), I do wonder what those issues are. Considering how much PF actually has evolved on this front over the years, despite being chained to a near fossilized core system, I think we can be pretty certain at least a lack of capacity thankfully isn't one such issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    An important difference is that 4E and 5E worded it as "damage whenever you miss", whereas P2 words it as "turning some misses into glancing blows instead". In terms of verisimilitude, the latter is better.
    Definitely.

    Now if they've also combined this increased granularity of success/failure with some kind of smart and play-friendly hp system at the very least equally granular, they might've made the damage differences a little more meaningful and less one-dimensional. Or to put it in other words, I think you can typically tell something is missing if DPR is generally the most relevant measure of damage focused characters' combat prowess. This is of course especially true in a system which focuses primarily on damage in general.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    This. So much.

    Not that this necessarily means the system's off, but I'm worried we haven't seen anything that really makes the above seem a less likely issue in P2. Because from what I can tell so far, aside from a few comments on moving in the new action system, instead literally everything we've seen connected to the fighter or martial combat in general is about hp damage. Lots about how to deal it in general - weapon types, Power Attack, critical success and failure - plus quite a lot about how to deal it during your turn, along with a few things about how to deal it outside your turn and how to avoid it.

    And again, I'm simply hoping future reveals on for example "Combat Maneuvers that Rock" will turn this impression on its head.

    Yeah. And again, so far all those new things also boil down to basically the same thing. This seemingly unintended "design theme" is by far the most important reason why 3.5 and PF martials in general have very little tactical depth and versatility in combat. If the PDT actually is having issues with providing martial combat with meaningful mechanical differentiation (between classes, combat styles, builds, rounds, turns, actions, etc), I do wonder what those issues are. Considering how much PF actually has evolved on this front over the years, despite being chained to a near fossilized core system, I think we can be pretty certain at least a lack of capacity thankfully isn't one such issue.
    We did see one non-damaging action for fighters - a feat that lets them spend an extra action to frighten an enemy with their attack. Other than that, it's just been damage all day long.

    Meanwhile, goblins get the drow treatment in a new blog post. I continue to find it hilarious. The description of their racial characteristics isn't that different from the old one, but it emphasizes being quirky and hilarious, rather than psychotic, pyromaniac vermin. Just like in the 3.5 Monster Manual, elves are graceful and goblins are cowardly despite using the same tactics.

    I wonder what they'll do to other "monster" races - hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, ogres, gnolls and the like. I suspect they'll remain conveniently evil, because they're not as popular as goblins and thus not marketable.

    As far as racial traits go... each race gets two ability boosts and one flaw, which are apparently not the same thing as the old +2 bonuses/penalties. And they get one "floating" boost, which can negate a flaw. It still seems like playing a class that requires an attribute your race has a flaw in will be suboptimal. Like a goblin cleric. I can't for the life of me figure out why goblins have a charisma boost, mind you.

    I like the idea of racial feats, but those we see here... improvising weapons together from scrap really doesn't feel like it should be a goblin-specific thing. Never mind how often it's even going to come up. Likewise for Razor Teeth - not sure what the value is of a 1d6 bite. The other two look more useful at a glance.
    Last edited by Morty; 2018-04-03 at 06:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Meanwhile, goblins get the drow treatment in a new blog post. I continue to find it hilarious. The description of their racial characteristics isn't that different from the old one, but it emphasizes being quirky and hilarious, rather than psychotic, pyromaniac vermin.
    To be fair, and regardless of edition, many non-goblin PCs are also psychotic, pyromaniac vermin
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    To be fair, and regardless of edition, many non-goblin PCs are also psychotic, pyromaniac vermin
    only one came to my mind and its junkrat from overwatch so its kinda rare to find
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    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    only one came to my mind and its junkrat from overwatch so its kinda rare to find
    You're thinking a little too literally here - terrible people prone to sudden violence with proclivities to arson are what's being alluded to, and this fits a number of PCs.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    I don't get what the fuss is about the placement of goblins described in yesterday's blog post. In Pathfinder 1e, there are two core rulebooks: the Bestiary and the poorly named Core Rulebook, which, in spite of its name, is not a self-contained set of rules for any game. The "Core Rulebook" contains things like Planar Binding, and there is no way to make sense of it with just the rules in the CRB. You need the Bestiary or something with essentially the same content as the Bestiary (the PRD, the 3.5 Monster Manual, the 3.5 SRD) to understand a bunch of the rules in the Core Rulebook.

    In Pathfinder 1, goblins are a "core" race in that they are printed in the core rules. More specifically, they are in the Bestiary. They are also reprinted in the Advanced Race Guide. In PF2, as far as I can tell, there are still going to be two core rule books, and goblins are being moved from one to the other. Reading through the thread on the Paizo blog, though, it sounds like some people are really angry about goblins being in the CRB. A lot of the complaints seem to revolve around goblins gaining the status of a "Core Race." I'm kind of confused about what they mean, though: at first I thought they just meant that a "Core Race" was one that is in the CRB. However, the way some people describe it, it sounds as if they think there is some special effect of a race being "Core" aside from which book it is in. Like, if an ancestry is moved from the Advanced Race Guide or Bestiary to the Core Rulebook, does that give it some in-game benefits that I've never heard about? What is so significant about making goblins "Core?"

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Like, if an ancestry is moved from the Advanced Race Guide or Bestiary to the Core Rulebook, does that give it some in-game benefits that I've never heard about? What is so significant about making goblins "Core?"
    Its kinda a waste of space. Its one thing to have a page blurb about a race, but if it comes with feats, and backgrounds, and a bunch of other stuff wasting that space for a maskot race is just annoying when so many core design elements of the game have not been explained in the blogs yet.

    Especially since its like its been toned down to fit as a player race. For the people that DID like the maskot, its like having the maskot having its edges filed down so it can apear in the title of the TV show.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2018-04-03 at 05:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    What is so significant about making goblins "Core?"
    Some people are upset that goblins will "now become" a PC race. These people are apparently unaware that goblins have already been a PC race since the popular 2011 series "We Be Goblins", and have been part of PFS since 2012.

    So it's a tempest in a teacup, really. Some people don't like goblins - and so what? Numerous people don't like gnomes or half-orcs, either. That's why there are also other races
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    exelsisxax's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Some people are upset that goblins will "now become" a PC race. These people are apparently unaware that goblins have already been a PC race since the popular 2011 series "We Be Goblins", and have been part of PFS since 2012.

    So it's a tempest in a teacup, really. Some people don't like goblins - and so what? Numerous people don't like gnomes or half-orcs, either. That's why there are also other races
    Some people are mad because we don't care about goblins either way and want paizo to just give us the damn rules drafts already so we can figure out how badly they broke things.

    The weird infatuation with what races and classes are in the core rulebook can die in a fire, we still don't know what basically any core rules actually are. It's a matter of priorities.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Blog: Critical Success and Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    I don't get what the fuss is about the placement of goblins
    Oh, I think that is rather simple: Critters in the Bestiaries are monsters, not people, itīs fine to kill monsters without a second thought and you don't even have to fire up your detect evil to be justified at that. Elf or Dwarf? Different matter, no automatic green light like with Duergar and Drow.

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