Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

[Psyren]

Edit: Hah. Funnily enough, I just got a Fleshrake...on my level 19 Monk I'm leveling for the Season. =/

The solution is easy, cube that one and target the two that do drop to wield

[zlefin]

Is diablo 3 still adding expansions/content/dlc/whatever it is they add, or is it fully finished?
I'm waiting to buy it (been waiting several years, fine to wait more) until everything is finished so I can get it all at once.

[hamishspence]

IMO it's as close to finished as it's likely to be. now that there's the Necromancer expansion.

It would surprise me if they release any more expansions on that scale.

[Psyren]

With both Immortal and D4 in the works, it seems unlikely that D3 will get anything new beyond seasons and balance patches. So you should be good to buy, especially on console because the 4-player couch co-op makes for a solid party experience.

The common meme in the community is that Heroes of the Storm is getting more Diablo content right now than Diablo is e.g. playable Imperius came out not too long ago.

[The_Jackal]

That's for one specific build that uses Elemental Exposure for extreme top-level pushing.

I kind of think the whole concept of 'extreme top-level pushing' is kind of a cipher. You're either doing speed runs, or you're trying to get the highest rift level you can. Your highest rift is your extreme top-level, and you can either use CoE for 90% of viable top-end builds, or you can just choose to be weak.

You can run a much simpler mono-element build and still push just fine, and even still use CoE - a 200% buff 25% of the time is equivalent to a 50% buff all the time, which is more than most rings will give you.

But it's NOT equivalent to a 50% all the time buff, and virtually anyone would choose a consistent 50% buff over a 200% buff 25% of the time, because you can quite easily miss your window due to boss phase changes, mechanics that force you to seek cover. Meanwhile, the rest of the time, you're tossing marshmallows at your enemies. Simon says, "Do damage". It's irritating.

If they wanted to promote rainbow builds, I support that fully, but there are way more fluid, intuitive and fun ways to do that than a timed, rotating buff.

[Keltest]

I kind of think the whole concept of 'extreme top-level pushing' is kind of a cipher. You're either doing speed runs, or you're trying to get the highest rift level you can. Your highest rift is your extreme top-level, and you can either use CoE for 90% of viable top-end builds, or you can just choose to be weak.



But it's NOT equivalent to a 50% all the time buff, and virtually anyone would choose a consistent 50% buff over a 200% buff 25% of the time, because you can quite easily miss your window due to boss phase changes, mechanics that force you to seek cover. Meanwhile, the rest of the time, you're tossing marshmallows at your enemies. Simon says, "Do damage". It's irritating.

If they wanted to promote rainbow builds, I support that fully, but there are way more fluid, intuitive and fun ways to do that than a timed, rotating buff.

As I recall, CoE was actually designed by the fans at one of the blizzcons.

[The_Jackal]

As I recall, CoE was actually designed by the fans at one of the blizzcons.

I did not know that, certainly explains some things. If I were designing something to take the place of the CoE ring, I would have gone more toward the route taken with the Wizard Passive, "Elemental Exposure". Has more or less exactly the same benefit to rainbow users, but doesn't completely monopolize all other builds, and also puts the tempo of the build in the hands of the player, rather than simply having the computer tell the player, "Use cold skills now".

[Psyren]

I kind of think the whole concept of 'extreme top-level pushing' is kind of a cipher. You're either doing speed runs, or you're trying to get the highest rift level you can. Your highest rift is your extreme top-level, and you can either use CoE for 90% of viable top-end builds, or you can just choose to be weak.

No, there's still a big, big difference between "highest level you can" and "highest level anyone has possibly achieved with that build." When you go onto Icy Veins or a similar elitistjerks-style optimization site and you see a DMO build throwing in a bunch of different elements and trying to line up the timing with each cycle of their CoE, that is the kind of top-level play that they're using to try and hit GR100+ and that I simply find un-fun, just like I think grinding out ancient pieces and a bucketload of level 50+ leggems so I can Caldesann every single one of my slots is un-fun. But that is what the people who want to push the extreme top level are expected to do, so to them, a weird multi-element build that hits harder is a no-brainer.

But it's NOT equivalent to a 50% all the time buff, and virtually anyone would choose a consistent 50% buff over a 200% buff 25% of the time, because you can quite easily miss your window due to boss phase changes, mechanics that force you to seek cover. Meanwhile, the rest of the time, you're tossing marshmallows at your enemies. Simon says, "Do damage". It's irritating.

Except almost no build is consistently doing the same amount of damage at all times. Even when your rotation lacks any sorts of peaks and valleys, you're also traveling around trying to find the next pack, or running away from harmful affixes, or rounding up density. So damage windows are indeed engaging gameplay, even if you're not always able to hit them - the fun is in trying to do so as often and consistently as possible despite everything else happening on screen.

If they wanted to promote rainbow builds,

They're not "promoting rainbow builds" - a handful of extreme optimizers are using them, just like extreme optimizers in any game will find ways to squeeze out extra damage, whether or not the designers intended them to be able to do that. You and I are quite free to ignore them, we'll never be at that level anyway so getting bent out of shape over them is pointless. (At least, I know I'm not GR95+, I'm not going to speak for you necessarily.)

[The_Jackal]

No, there's still a big, big difference between "highest level you can" and "highest level anyone has possibly achieved with that build." When you go onto Icy Veins or a similar elitistjerks-style optimization site and you see a DMO build throwing in a bunch of different elements and trying to line up the timing with each cycle of their CoE, that is the kind of top-level play that they're using to try and hit GR100+ and that I simply find un-fun, just like I think grinding out ancient pieces and a bucketload of level 50+ leggems so I can Caldesann every single one of my slots is un-fun. But that is what the people who want to push the extreme top level are expected to do, so to them, a weird multi-element build that hits harder is a no-brainer.

So, wait, even YOU find the sacrifices necessary to make a competitive ladder build unfun, yet you're going to bat to defend the design of this item which drives the gameplay which is required to make those top-end builds work? Are you sure you're not just indulging in some kneejerk contrarianism? I don't mean this by way of judgement, it happens to me all the time.

So damage windows are indeed engaging gameplay, even if you're not always able to hit them - the fun is in trying to do so as often and consistently as possible despite everything else happening on screen.

No they're not. Following a metronome isn't gameplay, or being very generous, it's infant-level DDR. You've as much as said even you don't like it, and I know I don't like it. But even leaving aside the "whether hitting a fixed damage window is fun" debate, it's also really mediocre in terms of diversity. This one, wildly overtuned ring completely owns that slot in like 90% of top tier builds.

They're not "promoting rainbow builds" - a handful of extreme optimizers are using them, just like extreme optimizers in any game will find ways to squeeze out extra damage, whether or not the designers intended them to be able to do that. You and I are quite free to ignore them, we'll never be at that level anyway so getting bent out of shape over them is pointless. (At least, I know I'm not GR95+, I'm not going to speak for you necessarily.)

Yes, you can also keep playing your copy of Diablo III at Torment 1, and never interface with the game's progression system at all. You can also unplug your computer and read a book. When I play a progression game, I want to progress, and sooner or later, progression is going to take you to a point where you've got to minimax. I'm fine with that. That's actually what I like about progression games: How continued work and understanding of the game's items, mechanics, and gameplay afford me the ability to accrue greater and greater power. But where Convention of Elements ruins the experience is how one overtuned, badly designed item warps all build design around itself to make an experience which, and I'm quoting you here, "I simply find un-fun."

Real talk: It doesn't have to be that way. The game should be no less fun at Greater Rift 120 than it was at Torment II. There's no reason that a well-rolled Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac or Short Man's Finger shouldn't be competitive with Convention of Elements or Unity (if you're solo). The reason they aren't competitive isn't a necessary product of cranking up the challenge, it's just lazy itemization and game design.

[T.G. Oskar]

All the speak about Convention of Elements...and I happened to land it recently. That, plus a Ring of Royal Grandeur, which is the kind of item I was actually looking for. That said...either it only works for one set, is glitched, or the effects aren't as obvious, because I don't seem to see it working. (My other ring is Restraint, which is part of the Bastion of Will set, and I still have Blackwell's chest piece, so at least it should have the benefit for 2 pieces). Got one from a Large Horadric Chest (obviously), the other through a visit to the Vault.

The Vault is pretty fun; it's like Christmas never ended. (Technically, it hasn't, ecclesiastically speaking, until Feb. 2nd). Mounds of gold everywhere, various Treasure Goblins, and hitting Greed was like hitting a piñata full of gold; it's insane to see my gold go from 5m to 14m in one run. If doing DIII felt like relaxing, this just upped the ante.

[Rynjin]

You need at least two set pieces for a Ring of Royal Grandeur to work. So it can up 3 pieces of a set to 4, or 5 to 6, but not 1 to 2.

[Psyren]

So, wait, even YOU find the sacrifices necessary to make a competitive ladder build unfun, yet you're going to bat to defend the design of this item which drives the gameplay which is required to make those top-end builds work? Are you sure you're not just indulging in some kneejerk contrarianism? I don't mean this by way of judgement, it happens to me all the time.

My position has been consistent, please go back to every other debate we've had on this topic if you doubt me. You for some reason I'm unable to fathom CANNOT distinguish between "competitive" and "bleeding edge", and you have never been able to do so.

No they're not. Following a metronome isn't gameplay, or being very generous, it's infant-level DDR. You've as much as said even you don't like it, and I know I don't like it. But even leaving aside the "whether hitting a fixed damage window is fun" debate, it's also really mediocre in terms of diversity. This one, wildly overtuned ring completely owns that slot in like 90% of top tier builds.

Want to know why it's popular? Name one other ring that gives you 50% damage to everything. I'll wait.

And that's the minimum; it's 50%+ if you have even a vague ability to line up procs, cooldowns, or even just basic density with a favorable cycle.

Yes, you can also keep playing your copy of Diablo III at Torment 1, and never interface with the game's progression system at all.

Because not being interested in GR100 and not caring about anything past T1 are the same thing.

If you're not going to argue in good faith, at least don't waste my time.

[The_Jackal]

My position has been consistent, please go back to every other debate we've had on this topic if you doubt me. You for some reason I'm unable to fathom CANNOT distinguish between "competitive" and "bleeding edge", and you have never been able to do so.

That's because there is no difference. What separates someone playing 120 rifts and someone playing 50 rifts isn't their build, it's the quality of their gear. A 50 grift D3 player has a CoE with bad rolls, a 120 grift D3 player has an ancient CoE with perfect rolls. Both of them are using the ring, you're wasting your own time if you don't. Oh, sure, you can play the game with a sub-optimal build, but you're just working longer for less benefit. Cookie cutter builds don't happen because players are lazy, they happen because developers are.

Want to know why it's popular? Name one other ring that gives you 50% damage to everything. I'll wait.

And that's the minimum; it's 50%+ if you have even a vague ability to line up procs, cooldowns, or even just basic density with a favorable cycle.

Yeah, that's why it's bad design. Let's take one super-ring that's so amazingly overpowered that no other alternative could come close to competing with it. Good plan? Great plan.

Because not being interested in GR100 and not caring about anything past T1 are the same thing.

If you're not going to argue in good faith, at least don't waste my time.

Sooner or later, you're going to hit a wall. The hammer you need to use to break through that wall is a cookie cutter CoE build. That's that or tap out. I tapped out. Which is all I said, you didn't have to come flying to the defense of that one ring which you know is overpowered and rules virtually every endgame build.. You're wasting your own time, I didn't order you to say anything.

[Psyren]

That's because there is no difference.

And as long as you continue to believe that, we have nothing else to discuss.

[Keltest]

Im with The Jackal here. You can play without CoE just like you can play without item sets, or without using all your skill slots, but at that point your just deliberately choosing to not even try to see how high you can get. And while theres nothing wrong with that, it kind of defeats the purpose of having multiple items if one or two just so vastly outperform the rest.

[Psyren]

Im with The Jackal here. You can play without CoE just like you can play without item sets, or without using all your skill slots, but at that point your just deliberately choosing to not even try to see how high you can get. And while theres nothing wrong with that, it kind of defeats the purpose of having multiple items if one or two just so vastly outperform the rest.

But he's not complaining just about using CoE. His complaint is a feeling (all in his head) of being "forced" to use it in a very specific, high-ceiling way (i.e. in a multi-element build which tries to match every single one up with a cycle) and finding that annoying. For one or two specific builds, yes, that's obviously a powerful way to use it. But saying that's the only viable or competitive or whatever adjective you want to use way to do so, is like saying that if you're playing D&D and not running Pun-Pun then clearly you don't actually care about optimization.

And his feeling is wrong even then, because most top-tier builds that use CoE don't play element-tetris with it. The vast majority are mono-element (or at least their key spenders are), and simply do their thing continuously with a nice extra boost when that element rolls around. In other words, they ignore the ring completely for the most part, or at best line up a cooldown or two with the right cycle. Examples: Jade Harvester is mono-poison and has no cooldowns. N6M4 is mono-cold and presses two buttons (Vengeance and Companion) on-cycle. Multi-shot uses Fire and presses the same two on that cycle. and so on. All are S-Tier, i.e. every bit as powerful as the one DMO build he found to complain about.

And even if your complaint is just with the game having a ring that is clearly better than most of the others for some builds - hi, I'd like to introduce you to this game series called Diablo. Remember Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac from D1? Or SoJ/BK from Diablo 2? BiS rings are nothing new. D3 is actually the best in this regard, as there are far more solid builds around that don't use CoE at all.

[Keltest]

But he's not complaining just about using CoE. His complaint is a feeling (all in his head) of being "forced" to use it in a very specific, high-ceiling way (i.e. in a multi-element build which tries to match every single one up with a cycle) and finding that annoying. For one or two specific builds, yes, that's obviously a powerful way to use it. But saying that's the only viable or competitive or whatever adjective you want to use way to do so, is like saying that if you're playing D&D and not running Pun-Pun then clearly you don't actually care about optimization.

And his feeling is wrong even then, because most top-tier builds that use CoE don't play element-tetris with it. The vast majority are mono-element (or at least their key spenders are), and simply do their thing continuously with a nice extra boost when that element rolls around. In other words, they ignore the ring completely for the most part, or at best line up a cooldown or two with the right cycle. Examples: Jade Harvester is mono-poison and has no cooldowns. N6M4 is mono-cold and presses two buttons (Vengeance and Companion) on-cycle. Multi-shot uses Fire and presses the same two on that cycle. and so on. All are S-Tier, i.e. every bit as powerful as the one DMO build he found to complain about.

And even if your complaint is just with the game having a ring that is clearly better than most of the others for some builds - hi, I'd like to introduce you to this game series called Diablo. Remember Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac from D1? Or SoJ/BK from Diablo 2? BiS rings are nothing new. D3 is actually the best in this regard, as there are far more solid builds around that don't use CoE at all.

Honestly Psyren, im not sure you even understand the problem. Youre either not actually fighting enemies until your element comes around, or youre actively wasting a ring slot if you attack when your element isn't up. How is it good gameplay to punish you for not paying tribute to the ring buff? And because its so much more powerful if you do jump through the hoops, you cant hope to match people who are willing to put up with that crap on the leaderboards.

In what way is this well designed? You either have to play according to the ring's song and dance or youre stuck behind all the people who do.

[The_Jackal]

But he's not complaining just about using CoE. His complaint is a feeling (all in his head) of being "forced" to use it in a very specific, high-ceiling way (i.e. in a multi-element build which tries to match every single one up with a cycle) and finding that annoying. For one or two specific builds, yes, that's obviously a powerful way to use it. But saying that's the only viable or competitive or whatever adjective you want to use way to do so, is like saying that if you're playing D&D and not running Pun-Pun then clearly you don't actually care about optimization.

Nice straw man you've got there. Let's pick it apart, shall we? First of all Diablo 3 is a game about progression, not a tabletop RPG, where the spotlight must be shared with other players, and the focus is (usually) on narrative, character, and improvisation, rather than combat. If the only purpose of playing Dungeons and Dragons were combat, then YES, Pun-Pun would be the only viable build. If your yardstick for a balanced and well-designed combat game is Dungeons and Dragons, then we have some fundamentally different assumptions about what constitutes good game design.

And his feeling is wrong even then, because most top-tier builds that use CoE don't play element-tetris with it. The vast majority are mono-element (or at least their key spenders are), and simply do their thing continuously with a nice extra boost when that element rolls around. In other words, they ignore the ring completely for the most part, or at best line up a cooldown or two with the right cycle. Examples: Jade Harvester is mono-poison and has no cooldowns. N6M4 is mono-cold and presses two buttons (Vengeance and Companion) on-cycle. Multi-shot uses Fire and presses the same two on that cycle. and so on. All are S-Tier, i.e. every bit as powerful as the one DMO build he found to complain about.

Actually, I was complaining about Tal's, not DMO. I kind of liked DMO. I didn't like that we were still stuck in the 4 seconds on, 12 seconds off playstyle that CoE slathered on top of it, but DMO is a fine set, and I enjoyed playing it. I'm perfectly aware that many builds use CoE just for the boost. That doesn't make the ring any less overpowered, or any less annoying to play with. When you play a build with CoE, it shoehorns you into a playstyle where you're pissing in the wind for 12 seconds, and then finally get to kill someone for four.

And even if your complaint is just with the game having a ring that is clearly better than most of the others for some builds - hi, I'd like to introduce you to this game series called Diablo. Remember Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac from D1? Or SoJ/BK from Diablo 2? BiS rings are nothing new. D3 is actually the best in this regard, as there are far more solid builds around that don't use CoE at all.

Yes, actually, I did play those far more enjoyable, better designed games. So let's look at those examples, shall we? Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac in Diablo 1 had 30-40% to all resist, and 16-20 to all attributes. The reason it was a top tier ring was because it just had good stats. It didn't wildly alter the tempo of your gameplay, you still got to choose when you used your abilities, you still got to select your build. If playing a Wizard with Mana Shield and Fire Wall got you to that point you could put on Ob/Zod and keep playing your game. The same goes for Stone of Jordan in Diablo II. It just gave you +1 to all skills, added mana, and gave you some token lightning damage to your likely irrelevant weapon damage. BK is the same, just geared for weapon builds, with some life steal and health in lieu of mana. None of these items hijack your tempo, telling you when you need to push your high impact attacks. If Stone of Jordan had given +4 to Fire, Frost, and Lightning skills in Diablo II, rotating in 4 second intervals, I would have found that just as overpowered, irritating, and distorting.

But you're right in one respect. I'm not just fixated on this one poorly designed item. It's the whole mindset behind a game which designs in massive flexibility into the base game, only to cram the player into a straightjacket of cookie-cutter builds by virtue of a litany of goofy set bonuses and synergizing legendaries, all of which require you to play the way they want you to. Welcome to Diablo III!! Pick any 7 skills, and play your way! No, wait, you have Marauder's 6, you're playing sentry hopscotch for the next 4 weeks until something better drops.

[Psyren]

Youre either not actually fighting enemies until your element comes around, or youre actively wasting a ring slot if you attack when your element isn't up.

Elites and champions exist. And trash mobs that are weaker than both (i.e. the majority of what you fight) exist. Why would you stop firing?

How is it good gameplay to punish you for not paying tribute to the ring buff? And because its so much more powerful if you do jump through the hoops, you cant hope to match people who are willing to put up with that crap on the leaderboards.

How is continually holding down a fire button "jumping through hoops?" How is pressing a cooldown at the right time "jumping through hoops?" Please explain.

[The_Jackal]

Elites and champions exist. And trash mobs that are weaker than both (i.e. the majority of what you fight) exist. Why would you stop firing?

No, of course you don't stop firing, but firing for a fraction of your peak damage feels bad. It feels like you're lobbing marshmallows until your window opens up, a window over which you have no control. You don't have control over when you do big damage, the ring does. It removes your agency and undermines the whole power fantasy the game purports to offer.

How is continually holding down a fire button "jumping through hoops?" How is pressing a cooldown at the right time "jumping through hoops?" Please explain.

See above. The effect of the ring is to act as a traffic cop, holding up a 'Slow' sign for 12 seconds out of every 16.

[Rynjin]

I too, hate Convection (it's just...not fun, and I relish any build that uses two rings and can't afford the slot in the Cube for CoE), but there's really no reason to jump down each others' throats over it.

[Psyren]

No, of course you don't stop firing, but firing for a fraction of your peak damage feels bad.

Very well, I can't control how you feel (even if I cared to). Speaking personally though, I only notice the difference when fighting elites (the folks with 10x health) and rift guardians anyway. After all, if you're 1-shotting trash, 1-shotting it 4x faster doesn't really matter. And even on the thicker targets, it just means there are windows where their health is draining faster than usual, just like any other cooldown. And on those elites, part of the skill of the game is to put as much of your repositioning/affix-dodging outside of the burst window as possible, while as much of your raw output goes inside that same window.

Thus I like the mechanic, and there are plenty of builds that don't require element-tetris to get the most out of it (because they only have one element anyway.) You don't, that's okay, but it means there's really nothing to debate.

[The_Jackal]

Very well, I can't control how you feel (even if I cared to). Speaking personally though, I only notice the difference when fighting elites (the folks with 10x health) and rift guardians anyway. After all, if you're 1-shotting trash, 1-shotting it 4x faster doesn't really matter. And even on the thicker targets, it just means there are windows where their health is draining faster than usual, just like any other cooldown. And on those elites, part of the skill of the game is to put as much of your repositioning/affix-dodging outside of the burst window as possible, while as much of your raw output goes inside that same window.

If you're one-shotting trash without CoE, you're really not pushing very hard, and thus will wait far, far longer to gear up than if you cheese a top-tier build to do harder grifting. Higher grifts, better drop chances, more set pieces, more ancients, more blood shards, and higher level rings. By all means, you can putter along in the slow lane if you want to, but that's not an effective way to play the game.

Thus I like the mechanic, and there are plenty of builds that don't require element-tetris to get the most out of it (because they only have one element anyway.) You don't, that's okay, but it means there's really nothing to debate.

Only because you keep drifting past my main point, which is that the unbalanced itemization of endgame gear winnows down player choices to the point where the huge variety of skills they put into the game are not viable. Which, to be fair, if you're not going to argue, you're right, we don't have a debate. I'm just right.

[Psyren]

If you're one-shotting trash without CoE, you're really not pushing very hard, and thus will wait far, far longer to gear up than if you cheese a top-tier build to do harder grifting. Higher grifts, better drop chances, more set pieces, more ancients, more blood shards, and higher level rings. By all means, you can putter along in the slow lane if you want to, but that's not an effective way to play the game.

No - GRs aren't for gearing, T13 speedruns are. The only "gear" you should be targeting in a GR is raising your gems.

Only because you keep drifting past my main point, which is that the unbalanced itemization of endgame gear winnows down player choices to the point where the huge variety of skills they put into the game are not viable. Which, to be fair, if you're not going to argue, you're right, we don't have a debate. I'm just right.

Sure man, whatever. *dismissed*

[The_Jackal]

No - GRs aren't for gearing, T13 speedruns are. The only "gear" you should be targeting in a GR is raising your gems.

Great. Fantastic. And how many hours of flubbing around T6 in a cookie-cutter build do I need to do before I can casually speedrun T13 and oneshot everything without CoE?

Sure man, whatever. *dismissed*

Indeed. Whatever you do, don't grapple with the real argument. Check and mate.

[Seerow]

Great. Fantastic. And how many hours of flubbing around T6 in a cookie-cutter build do I need to do before I can casually speedrun T13 and oneshot everything without CoE?

Depends on which cookie cutter build you're using. There are some out there that don't use COE at all.

Just at decided to look at builds that are being advertised as top tier using the starter set from Haedrigs Gift (Immortal King). Looking at just those labeled as "High Tier"

https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/barbari...-6-4-season-16 lists CoE as optional.
https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/demon-h...-6-4-season-16 lists CoE as optional
https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/witch-d...-6-4-season-16 does not mention CoE at all
https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/wizard-...-6-4-season-16 does not mention CoE at all
https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/wizard-...-6-4-season-16 does not mention CoE at all.


So that's at least 5 different builds across 4 different classes, while looking only at "high" tier builds and only looking at ones that use the Haedrig's gift set. I'm sure if you are willing to accept Mid-tier (which is till easily able to clear T13 speed runs) and look at sets beyond the one you will get for free from the season, you'll find even more options.


It's cool that you don't like CoE. Yes it is a very powerful item, and yes a lot of builds take advantage of it. But nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use it in order to play the game even at a high level.

That being said I would be interested to see analysis from people who know the system better than me how much you lose overall from swapping CoE out on the builds that say it is necessary, and put whatever the next best in slot item is in instead. I'd be willing to guess it's a difference of a few GR levels, but I'd be willing to bet not enough to stall your progress permanently.

[Rynjin]

That being said I would be interested to see analysis from people who know the system better than me how much you lose overall from swapping CoE out on the builds that say it is necessary, and put whatever the next best in slot item is in instead. I'd be willing to guess it's a difference of a few GR levels, but I'd be willing to bet not enough to stall your progress permanently.

200% damage every 8 seconds or so? Make of that what you will.

[Psyren]

It's cool that you don't like CoE. Yes it is a very powerful item, and yes a lot of builds take advantage of it. But nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use it in order to play the game even at a high level.

And even if they were holding that gun and saying use it, nobody is forcing him to use it in that specific way. But there's some kind of compulsion to pull the trigger I guess?

200% damage every 8 seconds or so? Make of that what you will.

And what % damage is, say, Manald giving you? Or Krysbin? How about OROTZ, Or RRoG? How about Short Man's Finger or Ring of Emptiness or Skull Grasp or Rue Chambers?

Or maybe you put a defensive ring there instead, like Unity or Halo of Arlyse/Karini - the toughness from which lets you reallocate some other slot(s) to damage output. How much did that get you?

Answer: it depends. And it's beyond shortsighted/lazy to look at one number on one slot and conclude the itemization is lacking depth.

[Rynjin]

It's not utterly lacking depth, there's just a few too many "best in slot" items. CoE, Endless Walk, Unity, Focus and Restraint; you're hard pressed to find a good build that doesn't utilize at least one of those, with stat sticks like Furnace, In-Geom, and ORotZ taking close second place for items with a bit too much general impact.

[T.G. Oskar]

You need at least two set pieces for a Ring of Royal Grandeur to work. So it can up 3 pieces of a set to 4, or 5 to 6, but not 1 to 2.

No wonder. Seems there's quite a bit I need to learn. Still good for my plans with the Crusader (Seeker of the Light, but dropping the Helm), and should let me keep Belt of the Trove for some additional fun. Will have to replace the other ring and drop Restraint when the time comes, but at least it's there.