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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    If you magically get what you wished for, and your choice of build bumps you up to the heady heights of say GR130, what actually changes for you?

    You are running the exact same build, playing the exact same mechanics, only this time, you are now doing it with a few more zeroes on the end.

    What content is being gated behind you not competing GR130?

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    If you magically get what you wished for, and your choice of build bumps you up to the heady heights of say GR130, what actually changes for you?

    You are running the exact same build, playing the exact same mechanics, only this time, you are now doing it with a few more zeroes on the end.

    What content is being gated behind you not competing GR130?
    GR 131 and above. Which is a separate problem with the illusion of progress given that they just buff the sets every patch.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    GR 131 and above. Which is a separate problem with the illusion of progress given that they just buff the sets every patch.
    Which does what, for you should you be able to achieve 131? We're playing an Exponential Clicker Game with no real reward save for enjoyment. If you're having enjoyment running one build, then run that build as best as you can.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Which does what, for you should you be able to achieve 131? We're playing an Exponential Clicker Game with no real reward save for enjoyment. If you're having enjoyment running one build, then run that build as best as you can.
    I don't disagree with you exactly, but D3 purports to have massive build variety. Yet as soon as you want to get to GR 50 or so, let alone the 100s, you need to start using these cookie cutter builds based entirely on how the devs have buffed set bonuses to absurdity. You will never, ever under any circumstances be able to find a yellow item that can come close to offering the same benefits as a set item, and even most legendary items are chosen based on whether they compete with the set bonus or not.

    The equivalent in D2 would be running a build that cant operate in nightmare mode. You might enjoy it for a while, but you cant do anything with it either.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-02-03 at 09:56 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Which class do you think has the best "interjections"? I personally like the Wizard and Crusader interjections the best. The wizards are definitely not humble, but they're kinda funny.
    The Crusader's threats are pretty great, too.

    I'm currently trying a Monk, and I'm just not enjoying the banter as much. I really didn't enjoy the Necromancer's speech. And I'm not that thrilled with the Witch Doctor, either.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Which class do you think has the best "interjections"? I personally like the Wizard and Crusader interjections the best. The wizards are definitely not humble, but they're kinda funny.
    The Crusader's threats are pretty great, too.

    I'm currently trying a Monk, and I'm just not enjoying the banter as much. I really didn't enjoy the Necromancer's speech. And I'm not that thrilled with the Witch Doctor, either.
    In terms of character, im with you in that the Wizard and the Crusaders are the best. I like the male DH's voice lines too, you really get the sense that he's mad as hell and ready to do something about it. The lady DH, a bit less so.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Which class do you think has the best "interjections"? I personally like the Wizard and Crusader interjections the best. The wizards are definitely not humble, but they're kinda funny.
    The Crusader's threats are pretty great, too.

    I'm currently trying a Monk, and I'm just not enjoying the banter as much. I really didn't enjoy the Necromancer's speech. And I'm not that thrilled with the Witch Doctor, either.
    I find the Wizard to be a bit shrill, personally. I prefer the female Demon Hunter and the male Barbarian. They're a bit trite, but I find that I care a good deal more for the quality of voice acting than I do the content, and I feel those two are marvelously cast. My picks for worst are the female Monk and Witch Doctors. Soooooo lame.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't disagree with you exactly, but D3 purports to have massive build variety. Yet as soon as you want to get to GR 50 or so, let alone the 100s, you need to start using these cookie cutter builds based entirely on how the devs have buffed set bonuses to absurdity. You will never, ever under any circumstances be able to find a yellow item that can come close to offering the same benefits as a set item, and even most legendary items are chosen based on whether they compete with the set bonus or not.

    The equivalent in D2 would be running a build that cant operate in nightmare mode. You might enjoy it for a while, but you cant do anything with it either.
    Well of course legendary and set items are generally better than rares. Power correlating with rarity is how these loot-based games function on a basic level.

    What I genuinely don't understand is how this is any different than Diablo 2's cookie-cutter uniques, sets and runewords being necessary for its own higher difficulties. Why is this such a sticking point now, when the genre (and even this series) has been around for over 2 decades at this point? Furthermore, I don't agree that a build being Hell-viable in D2 is equivalent to one that is GR130-viable in D3; D2 Nightmare and Hell have actual content that differs from Normal. GR70 and GR130 meanwhile don't differ an iota besides throwing more zeroes on the end of everything. It's the game design technique of Differences in Scale vs. Differences in Kind. In terms of differences in kind, GR70 viability is where that stops mattering because it unlocks Primal Ancients to drop on T1+, and is the highest requirement for the Season Journey.

    Speaking of Primal Ancients, that's what D3 has done that I find particularly beneficial for the genre - i.e. a category that is guaranteed to roll perfectly in every stat, even persisting through rerolls. It's something that is entirely unnecessary but that the hardest of the hardcore who do care about the ladder for whatever reason can push for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Which class do you think has the best "interjections"? I personally like the Wizard and Crusader interjections the best. The wizards are definitely not humble, but they're kinda funny.
    The Crusader's threats are pretty great, too.

    I'm currently trying a Monk, and I'm just not enjoying the banter as much. I really didn't enjoy the Necromancer's speech. And I'm not that thrilled with the Witch Doctor, either.
    I love the monk's "multikill" blurbs the most, e.g. "Your flaws are revealed!" and "The storm breaks!" The female monk is also my favorite female character voice out of all of them just in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Female DH is a bit weird to me because the VA was replaced for Reaper of Souls so her voice is at this weird state where it's both similar and different at the same time and it bothers me to hear it.
    I like the female wizard voice because of her HotS appearance.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well of course legendary and set items are generally better than rares. Power correlating with rarity is how these loot-based games function on a basic level.

    What I genuinely don't understand is how this is any different than Diablo 2's cookie-cutter uniques, sets and runewords being necessary for its own higher difficulties. Why is this such a sticking point now, when the genre (and even this series) has been around for over 2 decades at this point? Furthermore, I don't agree that a build being Hell-viable in D2 is equivalent to one that is GR130-viable in D3; D2 Nightmare and Hell have actual content that differs from Normal. GR70 and GR130 meanwhile don't differ an iota besides throwing more zeroes on the end of everything. It's the game design technique of Differences in Scale vs. Differences in Kind. In terms of differences in kind, GR70 viability is where that stops mattering because it unlocks Primal Ancients to drop on T1+, and is the highest requirement for the Season Journey.

    Speaking of Primal Ancients, that's what D3 has done that I find particularly beneficial for the genre - i.e. a category that is guaranteed to roll perfectly in every stat, even persisting through rerolls. It's something that is entirely unnecessary but that the hardest of the hardcore who do care about the ladder for whatever reason can push for.
    NM and Hell in D2 get harder, but you aren't actually seeing any new content except for a certain definition of new in act 5, which transplants older monsters in. Otherwise its the same content you've seen in normal, just with, as you put it, more zeroes.

    Also, you A: didn't need to use top end cookie cutter builds to kill Baal in hell mode in D2, nor use cookie cutter gear and B: D2 was designed with skills intentionally becoming obsolete as you grew in power. Nobody uses or thinks you should be able to use Frost Bolt in hell, no matter your gear. D3 meanwhile wants you to think every skill is useful for the entire game... until you start rifting, and anything not supported by a gear set is worthless.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Which class do you think has the best "interjections"? I personally like the Wizard and Crusader interjections the best. The wizards are definitely not humble, but they're kinda funny.
    The Crusader's threats are pretty great, too.
    Agree on the Crusader part, though I love their sarcasm the most. It's refreshing to hear a holy warrior actively use sarcasm.

    Though...I do like the VA and speech of Covetous Shen. It's an odd combination, of being a braggart, a coward, but also poignant and insightful; a very complex character, given who he really is. However, the medium that blends all that is humor, and I find Shen quite humorous. Particularly when stuck in a barrel. Or...heck, the entire skit where you get him at first: the barrel, then the color commentary, then the reaction at seeing his guide at the end. Couple that with the Crusader's snark, and it all blends down nicely.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    NM and Hell in D2 get harder, but you aren't actually seeing any new content except for a certain definition of new in act 5, which transplants older monsters in. Otherwise its the same content you've seen in normal, just with, as you put it, more zeroes.
    No, you're wrong. There are numerous sets and uniques that only drop in Nightmare+ for example (e.g. the Disciple, and the class sets like Mavs/Tals), and Ubers can only be spawned in Hell. Certain runes also only show up in NM/Hell. That is content exclusive to those difficulties. Meanwhile in D3, there is not a single enemy or item available at GR130 that doesn't show up at GR70, only higher numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, you A: didn't need to use top end cookie cutter builds to kill Baal in hell mode in D2, nor use cookie cutter gear and B: D2 was designed with skills intentionally becoming obsolete as you grew in power. Nobody uses or thinks you should be able to use Frost Bolt in hell, no matter your gear. D3 meanwhile wants you to think every skill is useful for the entire game... until you start rifting, and anything not supported by a gear set is worthless.
    Baal is far from the most challenging content in D2, so pointing to him means nothing. Heck, the Cow Level on Hell is harder than Baal, to say nothing of Ubers and Pandemonium Diablo. You did need cookie-cutter builds to take them on, or else to be carried by someone who did.

    As for "worthless," I'm still waiting on a definition for that term. I'll ask the same question that Kadesh did - what does being able to run GR130 instead of GR100 with a given build actually get you? Nothing above GR70 matters in a tangible sense, you have access to all the content (both rewards and enemies) in the game at both.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-02-04 at 04:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What I genuinely don't understand is how this is any different than Diablo 2's cookie-cutter uniques, sets and runewords being necessary for its own higher difficulties.
    I can't answer for everyone, but I can answer for myself: I don't generally play the game to push the highest of the high leaderboards, my goals tend to be exclusively around accruing power for my character, and also collecting a varied collection of gear so I can play with various builds. To the casual observer, you'd be right, there's not much difference, after all, runewords were just as power creepy as the current sets and uniques, and arguably the same endgame cookie cutter eventually took over. What's different, as far as I'm concerned, is how the changes in the game's itemization philosphy and core game design scuppered any hope of progressing in the same way you could in Diablo 2 in Diablo 3. Three major changes inform this: 1) Removal of skill trees. Yes, getting a Occy and Stone of Jordan was definitely important for a successful build, but you also had a deep bench of synergies you could invest in your own character, independent of itemization, which governed a great deal of your character's power. 2) Design creep, a.k.a., "Let's make this complicated for no good reason". Don't get me wrong, some complexity is good, but top-end builds are generally off the deep end. Was there something deeply wrong with a multishot 'zon? Now your multishot build gets penalized for not shooting enemies from off the screen, and also incentivizes you to not spend your Discipline resource! Why? Because sarcastic air-quotes "FUN". It wasn't enough to bring back a classic, they felt the need to add another layer of jerkaround into the mechanics because just doing the same thing would have, what, involved admitting they had nothing which really improved upon what was made back in the mid-2000's? 3) The inability to trade between players. If you were a hopeless dilettante like me, and refused to roll a Hammerdin (the worst cheese ever introduced to DII), you could still go into Meph or Pindle runs and have a good crack at getting tradeable gear, to convert into something of use for your continued advancement. In point of fact, really once you had a viable build to carry you through Meph in Hell difficulty, there was very little more you could do to increase your rate of power gain, save to stack some magic find into your build. In DIII, however, you can't trade your way into better gear, so your only hope is to optimize for speedrunning/push rifts. And all that optimization leads you remorselessly to one place: Cookie cutter builds.

    Look, I don't think D2 is impossible to improve upon, there are definitely things I don't miss. Charms, or whatever that BS that sat in your inventory and gave bonuses were just inconvenient and dumb, 100% immune monsters wildly distorted viable endgame builds in their own unfun way, insta-gib Gloams are, of course, terrible, and runewords were just power-creep run amok, and the lack of cheat-prevention made what should have been an impossibly remote goal into yet another commodity you could buy from whatever shady dealer you dared to deal with. But in my opinion, the changes Diablo III brought to the party replaced those with a new, more oppressive flavor of unfun.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I love the monk's "multikill" blurbs the most, e.g. "Your flaws are revealed!" and "The storm breaks!" The female monk is also my favorite female character voice out of all of them just in general.
    I'm playing a female Monk for the first time and I don't really see how. To me her voice sounds laughable, and cracks weirdly in places, with SUPER weird delivery in some lines "FEEEEL the wrath of EEEEEEEEEEE-TARRRRR" in particular, which weirdly elongates the last word and reaches such a high pitch she's squeaking by the end of it.

    For me, male Monk and female Crusader are the best characters.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Was there something deeply wrong with a multishot 'zon? Now your multishot build gets penalized for not shooting enemies from off the screen, and also incentivizes you to not spend your Discipline resource! Why? Because sarcastic air-quotes "FUN".
    I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain how you think you can come up with such a load of nonsense. I'm running an Aquila Cuirass. I'm incentivized to not spend my Wrath or Essence (Thornsader and the Wierd Grim Scythe noPet LoN pet build I posted earlier in the thread). Is it fun? Hell yes. One less thing to worry about, AND I get a reward for not having to worry about resource management?

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I like the female wizard voice because of her HotS appearance.
    HotS: Heart of the Swarm?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Agree on the Crusader part, though I love their sarcasm the most. It's refreshing to hear a holy warrior actively use sarcasm.

    Though...I do like the VA and speech of Covetous Shen. It's an odd combination, of being a braggart, a coward, but also poignant and insightful; a very complex character, given who he really is. However, the medium that blends all that is humor, and I find Shen quite humorous. Particularly when stuck in a barrel. Or...heck, the entire skit where you get him at first: the barrel, then the color commentary, then the reaction at seeing his guide at the end. Couple that with the Crusader's snark, and it all blends down nicely.
    I love listening to the female Crusader interact with Covetous Shen! Especially as she tries to pin down his possible godhood. Shen is definitely my favorite NPC.

    This is my first time taking Lyndon as a follower, and I must say, I really do like his dialog. I love listening to him bait Kormac. And his attempts to flirt with Elena are pretty funny, too.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain how you think you can come up with such a load of nonsense. I'm running an Aquila Cuirass. I'm incentivized to not spend my Wrath or Essence (Thornsader and the Wierd Grim Scythe noPet LoN pet build I posted earlier in the thread). Is it fun? Hell yes. One less thing to worry about, AND I get a reward for not having to worry about resource management?
    Lots of builds circumvent resource generation or use, to avoid just sitting there tickling the enemy with your generators while you wait for your actual damage to come back online. That doesn't make it good design, just that people have worked around it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    HotS: Heart of the Swarm?
    Right, should be more specific with Blizzard acronyms.
    I meant Heroes of the Storm.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Baal is far from the most challenging content in D2, so pointing to him means nothing. Heck, the Cow Level on Hell is harder than Baal, to say nothing of Ubers and Pandemonium Diablo. You did need cookie-cutter builds to take them on, or else to be carried by someone who did.
    You did not. A group of well-coordinated naked Germans completed Ubers with 8 highly specialized characters, also naked, and documented it on YouTube. Most of what the Ubers demanded is 1) resistance, 2) proper footwork to separate the Ubers (you can't facetank them) and 3) a fat source of Crushing Blow.

    Another thing that I'd like to add to this discussion on D2 is some notes on D2's itemization methods that I don't think are really pointed out. For example, the supposed reliance on cookie-cutter uniques. The thing about D2 is that you could have made a Hell build work even off of uniques available in Normal. One of the most optimized (for cost-efficiency) builds for UT is a budget Smiter outfitted with cheap Crushing Blow gear and a source of Life Tap. Wand of Life Tap can be bought from Drognan, Dracul's Grasp is also a cheap item (in the D2 economy), otherwise any old blood-crafted gloves will help for Crushing Blow, and Goblin Toes are Normal boots as well. Even melee, which is a severely gimped (in terms of cost-efficiency) method of playing has plenty of builds (not just a single, unified, cookie-cutter way) that not only work, but can do so from Normal items. Bonesnap and Steeldriver (unique Maul and Great Maul droppable in Normal), Ribcracker (Nightmare staff), Butcher's Pupil (Nightmare one-handed axe) are all solid weapons. Even if you don't find any of these readily available items, you can always resort to crafting, imbuing, or even shopping for an item. Elemental melee builds (Fireclaws Werebear, Holy Shock Zealot) can blaze through Nightmare with just a shopped +40% IAS Very Fast weapon and still maintain decent killing speed / survivability in Hell against non-immunes. And casters can basically beat the game naked or become efficient runners with very low gear, with Javazon equipping a proverbial cracked Javelin.

    I got D3 very recently to play with a friend and, although it's ultimately a fairly fun romp for what it's designed to do, it doesn't convey the same assumptions in regards to itemization. It's unheard of in the D3 item system to keep great items with certain secondary stats you might not care about (the ring with Dexterity on it contributes somewhat to my survivability in D2, but it's worthless for a Wizard in D3). You are also calculated to keep upgrading your gear on a steady, ilvl basis. You can't really make a Normal Unique Weapon like D2 Bonesnap into a formidable end-game weapon in D3. It won't even make the cut for something like a low-Torment run through the game.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'm playing a female Monk for the first time and I don't really see how. To me her voice sounds laughable, and cracks weirdly in places, with SUPER weird delivery in some lines "FEEEEL the wrath of EEEEEEEEEEE-TARRRRR" in particular, which weirdly elongates the last word and reaches such a high pitch she's squeaking by the end of it.

    For me, male Monk and female Crusader are the best characters.
    Sorry not sorry, it's my opinion and I'm sticking with it

    There aren't any that I dislike to tell the truth, but I really like the Femmonk. And yes, that includes the YEEEE-TARRR you're deriding above.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    What's different, as far as I'm concerned, is how the changes in the game's itemization philosphy and core game design scuppered any hope of progressing in the same way you could in Diablo 2 in Diablo 3. Three major changes inform this: 1) Removal of skill trees. Yes, getting a Occy and Stone of Jordan was definitely important for a successful build, but you also had a deep bench of synergies you could invest in your own character, independent of itemization, which governed a great deal of your character's power. 2) Design creep, a.k.a., "Let's make this complicated for no good reason". Don't get me wrong, some complexity is good, but top-end builds are generally off the deep end. Was there something deeply wrong with a multishot 'zon? Now your multishot build gets penalized for not shooting enemies from off the screen, and also incentivizes you to not spend your Discipline resource! Why? Because sarcastic air-quotes "FUN". It wasn't enough to bring back a classic, they felt the need to add another layer of jerkaround into the mechanics because just doing the same thing would have, what, involved admitting they had nothing which really improved upon what was made back in the mid-2000's? 3) The inability to trade between players. If you were a hopeless dilettante like me, and refused to roll a Hammerdin (the worst cheese ever introduced to DII), you could still go into Meph or Pindle runs and have a good crack at getting tradeable gear, to convert into something of use for your continued advancement. In point of fact, really once you had a viable build to carry you through Meph in Hell difficulty, there was very little more you could do to increase your rate of power gain, save to stack some magic find into your build. In DIII, however, you can't trade your way into better gear, so your only hope is to optimize for speedrunning/push rifts. And all that optimization leads you remorselessly to one place: Cookie cutter builds.
    All right, I'll engage.

    1) Skill trees were illusion of choice and nothing more, just like they were when they got dropped from WoW. It got even worse once Synergies were introduced in 1.10. To be competitive in Hell, you had two choices - sink at least 80 of your points into one set of synergies, or divide them between two relatively strong skills for a dual-element build like Meteorb. And as I proved to Keltest above, Hell had content you couldn't get anywhere else, so being Hell-viable actually mattered if you cared about experiencing all the game's content - i.e. being able to fight every monster and obtain every loot drop. Certainly it matters in a truly tangible way that being GR100+ viable does not.

    2) Unhallowed Essence, "complicated?" Really? The most autopilot build in the history of builds?

    3) I honestly agree with you that trading didn't need to be banned entirely. I would cheer if it came back. But I understand why they got rid of it, and the AH. The amount of exploits were staggering, and while I would have much preferred that they fix their dang code so that I'd have a ghost of a chance at getting kitted out in Primal Ancients, disabling it and cranking up the drop rate for the spec I'm using is the next best thing they could have done. Since there's no chance in hell that D3 will be getting a full rebuild to remove all the exploits that existed when trading was a thing, we'll have to wait until D4 to see what they plan to do there.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Look, I don't think D2 is impossible to improve upon, there are definitely things I don't miss. Charms, or whatever that BS that sat in your inventory and gave bonuses were just inconvenient and dumb, 100% immune monsters wildly distorted viable endgame builds in their own unfun way, insta-gib Gloams are, of course, terrible, and runewords were just power-creep run amok, and the lack of cheat-prevention made what should have been an impossibly remote goal into yet another commodity you could buy from whatever shady dealer you dared to deal with. But in my opinion, the changes Diablo III brought to the party replaced those with a new, more oppressive flavor of unfun.
    We actually agree on a lot of this (though I don't agree on immunes, I think they would have worked very well in D3 given how easy it is to run a build that uses multiple elements without being utterly crippled like it was in D2 - and how easy it is to circumvent or escape unwanted packs too.) But the problems I had with D2 go far deeper than what I view as the surface-level annoyances you're bringing up, problems that I think D3 addressed very satisfyingly. Which brings me right back to - we just don't have a lot of fundamental common ground for these kinds of discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Lots of builds circumvent resource generation or use, to avoid just sitting there tickling the enemy with your generators while you wait for your actual damage to come back online. That doesn't make it good design, just that people have worked around it.
    "Design" is what lets them work around it. You realize that right? Those builds aren't accidental or unintended, there are specific items/runes that were designed make spenderless or resourceless builds function and be viable.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) Skill trees were illusion of choice and nothing more, just like they were when they got dropped from WoW.
    Have you not played Wrath Death Knight (with its "every spec can tank OR dps" design actually working), never did PvP, never created a custom levelling hybrid spec that was more efficient than the alternative (hybrid Prot/Arms Warrior or Holy/Shadow Priest) and never played a high variance class like the Rogue, or any other class that shuffles its talents based on gear or raid tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It got even worse once Synergies were introduced in 1.10. To be competitive in Hell, you had two choices - sink at least 80 of your points into one set of synergies, or divide them between two relatively strong skills for a dual-element build like Meteorb.
    "At least 80 of your points into one set off synergies" is suspect considering that the most self-sufficient class in the game, the Necromancer, can finish its least skill-heavy build as early as level 55, picking up only Raise Skeleton, Skeleton Mastery and Corpse Explosion, filling the rest of their levelups with literally whatever the hell they want. Dual-element builds also offered way more variety than you give them credit for, considering Sorcie could mix absolutely whatever elements she had wanted in whatever configuration she wanted. Frozen Orb was a cookie-cutter skill because it was extremely self-sufficient at extremely low point spenditure. So was Firewall, which didn't prove nearly as popular due to a much larger skillcap, but you can also make solid builds off of it.
    Then there's melee and other physical characters who generally have a ton of variance in the skill tree simply due to usually not having great synergy support. Zealot Paladins could choose to invest in Holy Shield, a set of backup / defensive auras; Barbarians could focus on different shouts to compliment their skillset and derive the power of their builds through itemization, not synergy. Bow Amazons could genuinely hybridize due to a successful Ama only really needing 40 levels in pure Bow skills and either focusing on stuff like Pierce for stronger physical damage output or hybridizing with something like Charged Strike to kill bosses easier.

    It would have been illusion of choice if the game explicitly punished you for not following a flowchart, but the core design of "create stuff around your synergies and fill the gaps according to playstyle" isn't bad at all. Especially since D2 characters generally can do more stuff within their build. A Barbarian can Howl every monster away from a bosspack, then Warcry the minions for a stun, then swap to a Wand of Amplify Damage to help with bringing them down, Taunt an Archer firing at him from just barely inside his FOV to neuter his ability to damage, and then he can start Whirling. In D2, I'd argue you have more abilities to work with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And as I proved to Keltest above, Hell had content you couldn't get anywhere else, so being Hell-viable actually mattered if you cared about experiencing all the game's content - i.e. being able to fight every monster and obtain every loot drop. Certainly it matters in a truly tangible way that being GR100+ viable does not.
    However, being Hell-viable is achievable through vastly different means than sheer grind, particularly on the classes that only rely on +skills gear and increasing HP/vita/res (and that only really matters in Hardcore, and is somewhat easily achievable through your Shield slot). Hell-viable characters can be already completed and planned out by Normal.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-02-05 at 01:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    On top of the above, D2 never pretends skill trees are a choice. The intent is visibly to upgrade your skills as you level up, with higher tier skills being solidly stronger than the lower tier skills at what they do. Glacial Spike is better than Ice Blast is better than Ice Bolt, and the game intends for and directs you to switch to the new skills as they come available. The only skills that don't get replaced as you level up are the ones that don't have any higher level skills overlap with them. Static Field doesn't have Improved Static Field, and Double Swing and Frenzy aren't mutually exclusive, otherwise it would always be better to use the higher level skill.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) Skill trees were illusion of choice and nothing more, just like they were when they got dropped from WoW. It got even worse once Synergies were introduced in 1.10. To be competitive in Hell, you had two choices - sink at least 80 of your points into one set of synergies, or divide them between two relatively strong skills for a dual-element build like Meteorb. And as I proved to Keltest above, Hell had content you couldn't get anywhere else, so being Hell-viable actually mattered if you cared about experiencing all the game's content - i.e. being able to fight every monster and obtain every loot drop. Certainly it matters in a truly tangible way that being GR100+ viable does not.
    Wait, so you first say that they're the illusion of choice, yet you immediately follow up with a description of a pair of choices. In fact, there were a number of builds you could make work, and the way I know you could make them work in Hell is that I did. Was every combination of skill points viable? Could you simply spend your points willy nilly and expect to excel? Of course not. But there were absolutely choices, and they afforded the player the ability to customize their character, rather than just their outfit. Now as to whether there was parity amongs the various choices available to you, that's a matter of this strange concept called balance, something I've often harped on Diablo III for doing badly (though I will concede that they've gotten better than in the earlier seasons after RoS). Did the Sorc's Lightning Tree need more help? Probably. That's a spreadsheet problem, however, (and, of course the fact that Gloams are the worst, and lightning-immune).

    2) Unhallowed Essence, "complicated?" Really? The most autopilot build in the history of builds?
    It's just an example of the bankrupt philosophy behind the "let's add complexity to undercut the basic, fundamentally sound class design". It's far from the only example, just the one I picked, mainly because the parallel between D2 and D3 is the simplest to make.

    3) I honestly agree with you that trading didn't need to be banned entirely. I would cheer if it came back. But I understand why they got rid of it, and the AH. The amount of exploits were staggering, and while I would have much preferred that they fix their dang code so that I'd have a ghost of a chance at getting kitted out in Primal Ancients, disabling it and cranking up the drop rate for the spec I'm using is the next best thing they could have done. Since there's no chance in hell that D3 will be getting a full rebuild to remove all the exploits that existed when trading was a thing, we'll have to wait until D4 to see what they plan to do there.
    There's no question that the monetized auction house, and the paucity of viable endgame gear at launch, was toxic to the game. I don't even necessarily need for trading to return, but rather some more viable mechanism to progress against Diablo 3's real endgame boss: RNGeezus.

    We actually agree on a lot of this (though I don't agree on immunes, I think they would have worked very well in D3 given how easy it is to run a build that uses multiple elements without being utterly crippled like it was in D2 - and how easy it is to circumvent or escape unwanted packs too.) But the problems I had with D2 go far deeper than what I view as the surface-level annoyances you're bringing up, problems that I think D3 addressed very satisfyingly. Which brings me right back to - we just don't have a lot of fundamental common ground for these kinds of discussions.
    The sole effect of immunes was to further punish solo players, though I'll agree that D3's skill system would make immunes considerably less horrible, compared to D2's "Stack all your synergies on one skill" framework. This I blame mostly on the synergy system being an afterthought rather than a fully realized concept embedded into the skill trees from day one. If there had simply been fewer synergies, such that a high-leveled character couldn't dump all their skills into one color to any real profitable effect, the downside of synergies would be considerably less.

    "Design" is what lets them work around it. You realize that right? Those builds aren't accidental or unintended, there are specific items/runes that were designed make spenderless or resourceless builds function and be viable.
    So here's the thing: I'm fine with builds which are synergistic. I'm not 100% sure I like the 'no resource' builds, but if there's someone who does, I don't begrudge anyone that. You don't want a builder or a spender in your build, great. I salute you, and encourage the developers to put in resources to let you adopt that playstyle. What I object to is the tendency of top-end builds (not all of them, but many of them) to lean heavily on mechanics which I find irritating and/or cumbersome. Simon Says courtesy of Convention of Elements, Statue builds with Endless Walk. Feast/Famine builds with Soul Harvest or Wrath of the Berseker. If you like such builds, good for you. I'd just like some consideration for some builds that didn't come from some extremely stilted item synergies, and let me play the game in a manner similar to how I played at more moderate difficulties. If I want to combine a build with Gargantuan, Corpse Spiders, Acid Cloud and Haunt, like I did when I was playing at lower difficulties, I can do that, but my damage and survivability, and therefore my rate of progression at endgame will be profoundly hampered. Sure, I'm aware that with enough Ancient Gear using Legacy of Nightmares will let me do some cool niche builds, but the problem is that getting to that point requires me to adopt tons and tons and tons of cookie cutter grinding while waiting for RNGeezus to smile on me.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Feast/Famine builds with Soul Harvest or Wrath of the Berseker.
    Most of the builds that depend on this can achieve near 100% uptime on these effects, which has its own warping effect on what 'viable' builds are - one of the ones that most annoys me is Demon Hunters with Vengeance, because there is a generic artifact that cuts its base cooldown by more than half, and another one that gives it its 'Reduce damage by 50%' rune.. and when you can have 80 - 100% uptime on a buff that is both a huge damage bonus, a major defensive buff, and can significantly reduce any resource management issues you might have by slotting it with the 'bonus Hatred per second' rune.. there's basically nothing else that is as good as that, so not doing it is self-nerfing. So nearly every top Demon Hunter build has two cube slots taken up with those artifacts and a mandatory skill slot for Vengeance.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Lots of builds circumvent resource generation or use, to avoid just sitting there tickling the enemy with your generators while you wait for your actual damage to come back online. That doesn't make it good design, just that people have worked around it.
    "Being able to play the way you want is bad design" - Keltest, 2019.

    Gotcha.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So here's the thing: I'm fine with builds which are synergistic. I'm not 100% sure I like the 'no resource' builds, but if there's someone who does, I don't begrudge anyone that. You don't want a builder or a spender in your build, great. I salute you, and encourage the developers to put in resources to let you adopt that playstyle. What I object to is the tendency of top-end builds(not all of them, but many of them) to lean heavily on mechanics which I find irritating and/or cumbersome. Simon Says courtesy of Convention of Elements, Statue builds with Endless Walk. Feast/Famine builds with Soul Harvest or Wrath of the Berseker. If you like such builds, good for you. I'd just like some consideration for some builds that didn't come from some extremely stilted item synergies, and let me play the game in a manner similar to how I played at more moderate difficulties. If I want to combine a build with Gargantuan, Corpse Spiders, Acid Cloud and Haunt, like I did when I was playing at lower difficulties, I can do that, but my damage and survivability, and therefore my rate of progression at endgame will be profoundly hampered. Sure, I'm aware that with enough Ancient Gear using Legacy of Nightmares will let me do some cool niche builds, but the problem is that getting to that point requires me to adopt tons and tons and tons of cookie cutter grinding while waiting for RNGeezus to smile on me.
    The bolded is in direct contradiction from start to finish. You don't begrudge what someone else finds exciting, and yet when that build gets a higher GR than you, you find it irritating?

    The builds exist, the builds play. The fact that some build can do 10million DPS, and another 100million, so what, when the boss you fight has 100billion HP or 1000billion, depending on your chosen difficulty level?

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    "Being able to play the way you want is bad design" - Keltest, 2019.

    Gotcha.
    I will thank you to not put words in my mouth if you want to have an honest discussion with me.

    If you don't, well... too bad. You can be honest or not engage me at all.
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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I will thank you to not put words in my mouth if you want to have an honest discussion with me.

    If you don't, well... too bad. You can be honest or not engage me at all.
    That is what you said, though? Literally a direct quote. People who want to play non-resource spending builds are incentivized to do so by taking legendary items empoering them.

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    That is what you said, though? Literally a direct quote. People who want to play non-resource spending builds are incentivized to do so by taking legendary items empoering them.
    That's not at all what I said, and its not a direct quote? If somebody wants to play that, its fine, but once you start hitting higher g-rift levels you simply cant take the time to sit there doing scratch damage waiting for your resource to generate.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Wait, so you first say that they're the illusion of choice, yet you immediately follow up with a description of a pair of choices.
    Precisely, a pair, meaning two general approaches (powerful-mono-element and weaker-overall-but-slightly-better-at-soloing dual-element). By my count, D3 has far more build diversity for each class than D2 ever did - especially when you compare both at the highest difficulty that serves as a gate to seeing all the game's content, i.e. GR70 vs. Hell Ubers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    It's just an example of the bankrupt philosophy behind the "let's add complexity to undercut the basic, fundamentally sound class design". It's far from the only example, just the one I picked, mainly because the parallel between D2 and D3 is the simplest to make.
    I don't see any complexity.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    There's no question that the monetized auction house, and the paucity of viable endgame gear at launch, was toxic to the game. I don't even necessarily need for trading to return, but rather some more viable mechanism to progress against Diablo 3's real endgame boss: RNGeezus.
    That stuff was needed in D2 because its own RNG was far worse. In over a decade of play I never once saw a rune above Gul drop; without duped runes, some builds would simply be things I read about online, never getting to try them myself, perhaps never even seeing them in game even on other people. And before you ask, yes, I did countless Countess runs, sent multiple alts to the Hellforge, and all kinds of other face-melting grind that I had time for as a teenager but don't anymore.

    Would I say no to a cube recipe that guarantees a specific primal ancient, even a ridiculously expensive one? No - but with enough mats stockpiled you basically have that anyway, if that's really the unicorn you want to chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    What I object to is the tendency of top-end builds (not all of them, but many of them) to lean heavily on mechanics which I find irritating and/or cumbersome. Simon Says courtesy of Convention of Elements, Statue builds with Endless Walk. Feast/Famine builds with Soul Harvest or Wrath of the Berseker. If you like such builds, good for you.
    I genuinely don't see what's "cumbersome" about "time your cooldowns with a specific window" or "stand still for a few seconds to do more damage." To put it bluntly, I consider those to be fairly basic expectations for an action RPG to ask for.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    If I want to combine a build with Gargantuan, Corpse Spiders, Acid Cloud and Haunt, like I did when I was playing at lower difficulties, I can do that, but my damage and survivability, and therefore my rate of progression at endgame will be profoundly hampered. Sure, I'm aware that with enough Ancient Gear using Legacy of Nightmares will let me do some cool niche builds, but the problem is that getting to that point requires me to adopt tons and tons and tons of cookie cutter grinding while waiting for RNGeezus to smile on me.
    This is why I'm sure we're speaking different languages. How do you define "profoundly hampered?"

    Because I'll tell you what "profoundly hampered" me - having to nerf all my output by stacking Magic Find to have any hope of getting decent gear. Yet another thing D3 does better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That's not at all what I said, and its not a direct quote? If somebody wants to play that, its fine, but once you start hitting higher g-rift levels you simply cant take the time to sit there doing scratch damage waiting for your resource to generate.
    Uh, what? Whirlwind and Shadow are both A-Tier while Invoker and Rolands are both B-Tier. All four use Aquila Cuirass, and they don't stand around waiting for resource either.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-02-05 at 05:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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