New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 4 of 28 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 812
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I don't think anyone's advocating a return to the raw, unmediated 'spam chat' method of building groups. I'm certainly not. Here's what City of Heroes did: The group finder inverted the normal convention of letting people browse groups, and was geared more towards letting players list themselves as available to run content. So, if you wanted to run a particular type of content, you just went to the group finder, looked for the Archetype (class) you were looking for, narrowed for the level range that would suit your content, and send them a tell inviting them. Quick, and easy.

    You didn't need to squat in a city to wait to get invited to something, you could go out in the world and grind solo stuff, or, heavens forbid, browse the players marking themselves as 'available' for your desired content, and send them tells until you had your group. They also didn't have a fixed group size, so you could have groups of anywhere from 2 to 8 players.

    They also had a feature which matched the members of the group to the level of the party leader, so you could get a group of friends and guildies into some new players' content, and everyone could a) have fun, and b) get cool stuff.
    The only difference between that and an automated LFD queue is lots of extra clicks and reading. I don't need to peruse a bunch of bios before I swipe right; I'm running a dungeon, not going on a date. This is precisely what I mean when I say they should design their automated system to defeat the jerks, rather than inflict a tedious manual system on everyone who isn't one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Why could you get cool stuff? Because their loot system was based on all crafted components. There wasn't a 'this gear drops this item from this boss', rather you collected various types of ingredients of varying rarities, and once you had the right bits, you crafted your item. But you could get useful parts for crafted gear from like level 10 to the level cap. All loot was personal, and all items could be traded or sold, so even if you personally didn't have a use for 'Rikti Telepathic Gel' or whatever, you could still flog it on the exchange.
    I'm not against this loot model (Warframe uses it.) It does however run into the JC Penney Problem of being an objectively better system (craft exactly what you want) that feels worse (no big rush from a great random drop.) To use another analogy, your paycheck is a much more reliable income stream than gambling in a casino, yet many people would rather go to Vegas than to work if they had the choice. In Warframe it works because it ties into the monetization model so well - you're paying for free, so waiting on your gear to "cook" followed by taking it out of the oven feels like a free lunch. In WoW, having to run to the oven to bake all your drops would feel like a timewaster even if they came out instantly, and time is literally money here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Finally, they had a difficulty slider, which increased the numbers, health, damage, and control resistance of the foes you fought, so if you found you'd been paired with some less than stellar teammates, you didn't have to choose between a re-queue and a repair party, the party leader could just downcheck the difficulty and finish the content, albeit with a slightly reduced payout of loot and XP. And there's plenty of ways you could put in cheevos and cosmetics to promote people reaching for the tip-top difficulty content.
    I'm okay with this too, except noticing that the group leader has done that would feel pretty bad for everyone else. Imagine if a single player game did that without telling you - well actually, you don't have to imagine it because several do. But in this case, whether making that button controlled by the party leader or making it automatic, the players would undoubtedly know it was there and the result, I think, wouldn't be pretty - even for groups that might need the help.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The only difference between that and an automated LFD queue is lots of extra clicks and reading. I don't need to peruse a bunch of bios before I swipe right; I'm running a dungeon, not going on a date. This is precisely what I mean when I say they should design their automated system to defeat the jerks, rather than inflict a tedious manual system on everyone who isn't one.
    To which my response is, why play a MMORPG at all? If all you want is action game with other players, how does WoW or any other offering compare favorably to Diablo 3, or for that matter, Skyrim or Dark Souls or something? If your teammates are just random pubtards that don't listen, take direction, or anything, how do they compare favorable to bots? I'm not down on simpler games, I like them alot, but I think you're you're just trying to make a multiplayer lootbash, you don't need all those MMO constructs at all.

    I'm not against this loot model (Warframe uses it.) It does however run into the JC Penney Problem of being an objectively better system (craft exactly what you want) that feels worse (no big rush from a great random drop.)
    The crafting materials you get can still have varying rarity, rather than just being a 'here's your Frozen Orb for completing this dungeon. Plus it will save you from the It's going to be so cool when you don't get it problem. Your average fruit machine can manage to be exciting to gambling addicts without actually having the thing dispense armani suits. In any case, the intrinsic rewards are for playing the game; you know, the combat and teamwork. The progression is there to keep you pulling the lever, it's the bells and lights that entice the eyes and ears.

    To use another analogy, your paycheck is a much more reliable income stream than gambling in a casino, yet many people would rather go to Vegas than to work if they had the choice. In Warframe it works because it ties into the monetization model so well - you're paying for free, so waiting on your gear to "cook" followed by taking it out of the oven feels like a free lunch. In WoW, having to run to the oven to bake all your drops would feel like a timewaster even if they came out instantly, and time is literally money here.
    WoW has used tokens of varying types in many iterations prior, including many of the far more successful iterations of the franchise. If you want to make someone still have a longshot of getting something great, then put a 1/10,000 chance of dropping 5 top-tier crafting reagents or lockbox keys or whatever.

    I'm okay with this too, except noticing that the group leader has done that would feel pretty bad for everyone else. Imagine if a single player game did that without telling you - well actually, you don't have to imagine it because several do. But in this case, whether making that button controlled by the party leader or making it automatic, the players would undoubtedly know it was there and the result, I think, wouldn't be pretty - even for groups that might need the help.
    Left4Dead's AI director does exactly that, and it works fine, and I suspect that after sufficient trips from the ICU, the team will probably not argue a change in difficulty. You're comparing the disappointment of getting slightly less loot with the frustration of being bounced into the group finder for another 30 minute wait and no better chance of being queued into someone who isn't a tard.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Let me clarify my position:

    I hope WoW Classic is exactly like WoW was as of patch 1.11. I also hope it's successful enough (whatever that means to Blizzard) that they release one or more BC servers...which are, or arrive, at the rules of the game in patch 2.4.

    That's it. I consider WoW modern beyond any possibility of salvaging, and thus for all of me they're welcome to change it in any way at all or none. If I was designing the precise game I wanted, it wouldn't look exactly like BC circa patch 2.4 (though the things I would change are not the things that modern-WoW players seem to point to to go, "SURELY you don't want THAT back?!"), but any changes made to it would not be chosen by me: they'd be chosen by WoW's current development team, the people who gradually turned the game into what's on live now, and if I wanted to play what they considered the "best" version of WoW I'd be doing so. If they resist all urges to "fix" things and follow the precise template the people who were working on WoW at the time used before, then they'll have brought back a fun game--at least, for those weirdos like me who still play twelve-year-old games. If they do that, I and the people here playing modern WoW can periodically remember briefly that the other version of WoW exists and shake our heads in synchronized disbelief that anyone would choose to play it.
    Last edited by Kish; 2018-04-30 at 08:33 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    @ Kish: I hear you. Hopefully enough of the classic server crowd want your specific version that that is what you get to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    To which my response is, why play a MMORPG at all? If all you want is action game with other players, how does WoW or any other offering compare favorably to Diablo 3, or for that matter, Skyrim or Dark Souls or something? If your teammates are just random pubtards that don't listen, take direction, or anything, how do they compare favorable to bots? I'm not down on simpler games, I like them alot, but I think you're you're just trying to make a multiplayer lootbash, you don't need all those MMO constructs at all.
    Well you could ask the exact same bolded question of games like Destiny and Warframe (and Anthem and Firefall and Em8er and...), and my answer would be the same to you there - the MMO format provides long-term progression/rewards, an evolving world/story - and yes, community (I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should be more tightly regulated than it is now.)

    And I think I've said this to you multiple times in the past (including in other game threads - ohai, Overwatch!) but I just don't have the experiences with rampant "pubtards" that you seem to. But even if I did, my recommendation to the designers would be the same - give us tools to coordinate our assault that don't simply hand a megaphone to any jerk who wants to be toxic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    The crafting materials you get can still have varying rarity, rather than just being a 'here's your Frozen Orb for completing this dungeon. Plus it will save you from the It's going to be so cool when you don't get it problem. Your average fruit machine can manage to be exciting to gambling addicts without actually having the thing dispense armani suits. In any case, the intrinsic rewards are for playing the game; you know, the combat and teamwork. The progression is there to keep you pulling the lever, it's the bells and lights that entice the eyes and ears.

    WoW has used tokens of varying types in many iterations prior, including many of the far more successful iterations of the franchise. If you want to make someone still have a longshot of getting something great, then put a 1/10,000 chance of dropping 5 top-tier crafting reagents or lockbox keys or whatever.
    Oh, I know material rarity would still exist, I just don't think it's enough outside of Warframe's model. I could be wrong though, given that I have a sample size of one successful game that uses it. If there's a subscription-based game that relies primarily on crafted gear rather than drops, I'd love to see how they do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Left4Dead's AI director does exactly that, and it works fine, and I suspect that after sufficient trips from the ICU, the team will probably not argue a change in difficulty. You're comparing the disappointment of getting slightly less loot with the frustration of being bounced into the group finder for another 30 minute wait and no better chance of being queued into someone who isn't a tard.
    You're right that L4D's AI Director works well, but you're forgetting why that is. Remember, these are two completely different genres. WoW, like most RPGs, is meant to be empowering - the challenge should feel tough enough to be engaging but ultimately, the fun is in winning and feeling like a hero/badass. Left 4 Dead meanwhile is intended to be disempowering; your goal is mere survival and lurching from safe house to safe house by the skin of your teeth. Thus when the AI makes things easy in L4D, rather than getting bored, the players feel tense - it's the calm before the storm, and it means a tank or witch or boomer is probably right around the corner, thus they stay engaged. And when the AI makes things crushingly difficult, your job is to get everyone who is currently disabled by a superzombie on their feet (or leave them to die!) and haul ass to the next checkpoint. Lulls in a WoW instance meanwhile simply mean you have more of your cooldowns ready to go, not to mention being able to take a drink to refill your resource bar (for the classes that even need one) too. In short, L4D has a much, much wider band of difficulty to play with (both the peaks and the valleys) - and what creates valuable tension in one game, does nothing but destroy it in the other. Oh yeah, and lest we forget, all the L4D characters are identical in capability, while WoW classes have to play and feel different from one another.

    Could they make some similar kind of automatic-difficulty-adjusting algorithm for WoW? Probably, but the level of tuning it would require to keep the peaks and valleys from getting too far out of whack (especially across every class and spec) would be nightmarish. Which is why Diablo and Mythic+ just hand it to the players (before they start the run.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-04-30 at 10:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well you could ask the exact same bolded question of games like Destiny and Warframe (and Anthem and Firefall and Em8er and...), and my answer would be the same to you there - the MMO format provides long-term progression/rewards, an evolving world/story - and yes, community (I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should be more tightly regulated than it is now.)
    No disrespect intended to those games, they aren't MMORPGs. They're basically 3d Diablo III. And if that's all you want, more power to you, but that's not WoW, or EQ, or any of a jillion other games trying to maintain the pretense of a complete world. If that's the ultimate fate of the genre, I'll survive, but it's not my preference.

    And I think I've said this to you multiple times in the past (including in other game threads - ohai, Overwatch!) but I just don't have the experiences with rampant "pubtards" that you seem to. But even if I did, my recommendation to the designers would be the same - give us tools to coordinate our assault that don't simply hand a megaphone to any jerk who wants to be toxic.
    I'll certainly support the idea that games that want to support multiplayer play should make it easier to coordinate, and it wouldn't even be hard to deliver. Just an 'attack my target' emote that actually put a marker on your current target, and showed a UI prompt to teammates show you want them to shoot would be golden. That said, however, voice gives you much, much, much better depth of communication.

    Oh, I know material rarity would still exist, I just don't think it's enough outside of Warframe's model. I could be wrong though, given that I have a sample size of one successful game that uses it. If there's a subscription-based game that relies primarily on crafted gear rather than drops, I'd love to see how they do it.
    As I said, CoH had it, and it worked a treat. I think it helps because the SuperHero genre kind of innately resists regular equipment, so there was less of a 'immersion' penalty hanging on the abstraction.

    You're right that L4D's AI Director works well, but you're forgetting why that is. Remember, these are two completely different genres. WoW, like most RPGs, is meant to be empowering - the challenge should feel tough enough to be engaging but ultimately, the fun is in winning and feeling like a hero/badass.
    Left 4 Dead meanwhile is intended to be disempowering; your goal is mere survival and lurching from safe house to safe house by the skin of your teeth. Thus when the AI makes things easy in L4D, rather than getting bored, the players feel tense - it's the calm before the storm, and it means a tank or witch or boomer is probably right around the corner, thus they stay engaged. And when the AI makes things crushingly difficult, your job is to get everyone who is currently disabled by a superzombie on their feet (or leave them to die!) and haul ass to the next checkpoint. Lulls in a WoW instance meanwhile simply mean you have more of your cooldowns ready to go, not to mention being able to take a drink to refill your resource bar (for the classes that even need one) too. In short, L4D has a much, much wider band of difficulty to play with (both the peaks and the valleys) - and what creates valuable tension in one game, does nothing but destroy it in the other. Oh yeah, and lest we forget, all the L4D characters are identical in capability, while WoW classes have to play and feel different from one another.
    So why shouldn't a dungeon feel tense, oppressive, and scary? That's when WoW felt the best: When you were doing stuff for the first time, you pulled packs wrong, and had to tough out crazy fights. I think it would be a lot better if you had specific points at which you could rest and recover, rather than being able to just snack between each trash pull. Besides, there's lots of 'rescue your teammate' mechanics in WoW dungeons and raids, just like the leaper or smoker attacks in L4D. So yeah, a game where the AI changed stuff up on your party? Where it's not just the same pull in the same spawns, following the same aggro table? That all sounds great to me.


    Could they make some similar kind of automatic-difficulty-adjusting algorithm for WoW? Probably, but the level of tuning it would require to keep the peaks and valleys from getting too far out of whack (especially across every class and spec) would be nightmarish. Which is why Diablo and Mythic+ just hand it to the players (before they start the run.)[/QUOTE]

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    No disrespect intended to those games, they aren't MMORPGs. They're basically 3d Diablo III.
    Respectfully, I couldn't care less about No True Scotsman labeling. I care about the qualities I listed, which Diablo doesn't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I'll certainly support the idea that games that want to support multiplayer play should make it easier to coordinate, and it wouldn't even be hard to deliver. Just an 'attack my target' emote that actually put a marker on your current target, and showed a UI prompt to teammates show you want them to shoot would be golden. That said, however, voice gives you much, much, much better depth of communication.
    Absolutely, but with voice (or any other freeform communication medium) comes a greater degree of responsibility for using it properly. Thus I believe it should be earned (or at least regulated) rather than given freely, and that the lower-difficulty content should be readily doable without it as a result. It should absolutely still be there for the high-level content (though if it isn't, folks will just alt-tab and use Discord etc anyway - but that too is "opt-in.")

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    As I said, CoH had it, and it worked a treat.
    *looks around at passing tumbleweed*

    I mean, did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So why shouldn't a dungeon feel tense, oppressive, and scary? That's when WoW felt the best: When you were doing stuff for the first time, you pulled packs wrong, and had to tough out crazy fights. I think it would be a lot better if you had specific points at which you could rest and recover, rather than being able to just snack between each trash pull. Besides, there's lots of 'rescue your teammate' mechanics in WoW dungeons and raids, just like the leaper or smoker attacks in L4D. So yeah, a game where the AI changed stuff up on your party? Where it's not just the same pull in the same spawns, following the same aggro table? That all sounds great to me.
    The problem is that style of play doesn't mesh with a game where you're supposed to be getting stronger over time. To repeat myself, the core experience of L4D is disempowerment, where even the calm moments fill you with dread. The first time you step into a WoW dungeon might be scary, but that's not sustainable by the 5th go, nor should it be in a power fantasy game.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-05-01 at 10:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Respectfully, I couldn't care less about No True Scotsman labeling. I care about the qualities I listed, which Diablo doesn't have.
    Okay, what qualities are those, again, exactly? Because I'm not trying to make a semantic argument, the games you list all lack qualities that I like about MMORPGs: Namely, a deep crafting system, in-game reputations, mounts, cool unlockables, a world you can explore with depth, an inter-player economy, really, just a fully realized setting where you get engrossed, rather than a shared lobby in front of some instanced content.

    Absolutely, but with voice (or any other freeform communication medium) comes a greater degree of responsibility for using it properly. Thus I believe it should be earned (or at least regulated) rather than given freely, and that the lower-difficulty content should be readily doable without it as a result. It should absolutely still be there for the high-level content (though if it isn't, folks will just alt-tab and use Discord etc anyway - but that too is "opt-in.")
    Sure, hence my "let's put in a difficulty slider or AI director" recommendation, and give people better tools to coordinate without having to jump on the mic.

    *looks around at passing tumbleweed*

    I mean, did it?
    Eh, I think that's an unfair argument. Yes, CoH is gone now, and WoW is still around, but CoH lasted 8 years during WoW's heyday, from 2004 through 2012, on a game that launched earlier, in a genre (Superheroes) that hadn't quite hit pop culture stride. Ironically, now that spandex are the new wizard robes, there's nobody coming out with a big multiplayer Superhero title, and all there is to get by with is DCUO and Marvel Heroes. In any case, I'm not suggesting that CoH was a perfect game, it had big flaws as well:

    1) Bad core game engine. If you want to see what a dumpster-fire the City of Heroes in-game engine, with animations and herky-jerky combat feels like, download a copy of Star Trek Online and do some ground combat. It's the same engine, and it's kind of garbage. Laggy inputs, unhelpful targeting, rooting attack animation, just... ugh.

    2) Content desert. City of Heroes gave you a really generous palette to craft your Hero, but the city itself was basically a bunch of outdoor zones that, while pretty to look at, really had nothing 'there' there. Scaling was good, but few of the NPCs were interactive, there were just a bunch of placeholder citizens, and the odd quest giver. Your typical mission was carried out by opening a door, then being transported into an instanced, procedurally-generated map with random NPC villains. The one bright spot was the city had a sprawling sewer system and some unique zones, but for the most part, lots of generic-feeling maps with generic-feeling villains, especially early on. Things got better later on, but WoW definitely wins out in the 'first 20 levels feel unique and interesting' front, at least back in 2004.

    3) Hideous bugs. Doors that don't work, crashes to desktop, falling out of the sky for no reason when flying, I could go on and on about the glitches in the game.

    4) More Content desert. They also had problems adding new content. Your typical WoW expansion gets 3-4 raids per expansion, each with its own release of accompanying content. With Cryptic/NCSoft's slower cashflow, they could never keep up with that rate of content every few months. That's really what makes the MMORPG a winner-take-all market. You either captivate enough money to fund your content creation to keep your subscribers engaged, or you slowly crumble as bored players bog off to do something else. Now they did eventually ad player-created content, which is a genius idea, IMO, and I wish Blizzard would release tools or players to make their own stories in the world, but I don't think that will ever happen.

    In spite of all that, CoH retains a high user-score on Metacritic, and I think that has a lot to do some of the features I've mentioned previously, and it still has devoted fans working to bring it back to this day. It's far from the best game ever made, but in an era festooned with super-thin ripoff titles like Sea of Thieves or No Man's Sky, CoH doesn't look that bad.

    The problem is that style of play doesn't mesh with a game where you're supposed to be getting stronger over time. To repeat myself, the core experience of L4D is disempowerment, where even the calm moments fill you with dread. The first time you step into a WoW dungeon might be scary, but that's not sustainable by the 5th go, nor should it be in a power fantasy game.
    Eh, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't feel disempowered when playing L4D, unless I get screwed by dumb teammates throwing. Sure, it's the zombie apocalypse, but I've got a deagle and a shotgun, and enough ammo to see me to the next safe house. Might I lose and get beat? Sure, but that's why it's fun. If you can't lose, winning gets boring. I don't see any reason WoW should be any different, and being stronger means you can fight off larger hordes of tougher foes, which an AI director can throw at you if it detects you're sleepwalking through the dungeon.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Okay, what qualities are those, again, exactly? Because I'm not trying to make a semantic argument, the games you list all lack qualities that I like about MMORPGs: Namely, a deep crafting system, in-game reputations, mounts, cool unlockables, a world you can explore with depth, an inter-player economy, really, just a fully realized setting where you get engrossed, rather than a shared lobby in front of some instanced content.
    Well actually, Firefall and Warframe do have every quality you just listed (except for one in Warframe's case, namely the shared wide open world) in addition to mine. But my list was:

    "Well you could ask the exact same bolded question of games like Destiny and Warframe (and Anthem and Firefall and Em8er and...), and my answer would be the same to you there - the MMO format provides long-term progression/rewards, an evolving world/story - and yes, community (I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should be more tightly regulated than it is now.)"

    And as it happens, I like your list too - but more as "nice to have" than "integral to the experience." Stuff like mounts and rep grinds and cool unlockables are easy to add after the fact (see Guild Wars 2.) "Deep crafting" I can take or leave, it's largely busywork. All you really need for a player economy is to enable trading and they'll do the rest (see Warframe, which doesn't even have an AH.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Sure, hence my "let's put in a difficulty slider or AI director" recommendation, and give people better tools to coordinate without having to jump on the mic.
    The latter I agree with wholeheartedly. It's the former I think would be tricky to implement in a way that feels good.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Eh, I think that's an unfair argument. Yes, CoH is gone now, and WoW is still around, but CoH lasted 8 years during WoW's heyday, from 2004 through 2012, on a game that launched earlier, in a genre (Superheroes) that hadn't quite hit pop culture stride.

    *snip*
    Oh, I'm not saying that CoH's definitely loot system led to its failure. I'm sure there were other (and possibly more pertinent) factors too. It just makes it more difficult to use that as an example proving it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Eh, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't feel disempowered when playing L4D, unless I get screwed by dumb teammates throwing. Sure, it's the zombie apocalypse, but I've got a deagle and a shotgun, and enough ammo to see me to the next safe house. Might I lose and get beat? Sure, but that's why it's fun. If you can't lose, winning gets boring. I don't see any reason WoW should be any different, and being stronger means you can fight off larger hordes of tougher foes, which an AI director can throw at you if it detects you're sleepwalking through the dungeon.
    It's not so much about "you can't lose" as it is redefining what winning and losing even mean. WoW is a power fantasy, and so "winning" means crushing bosses and (full-)clearing trash like the badass you are. In L4D meanwhile, winning just means survival, and trying to eradicate the hordes completely is a great way to end up with your brains spread on a zombie's ritz cracker. The AI director works because it was designed with that in mind, and so it is capable of recognizing that anyone standing around trying to feel powerful and rack up their zombie body count probably needs a wake-up call so they can start fleeing for their lives again.

    Throwing that into WoW would only ruin the fantasy it's trying to deliver on. In WoW, we're the special agents sent in to quell the Stockade riot, or bring Van Cleef to justice by the sword, or shut down a cult operation. There are specific dungeons where running for our lives is fun (Halls of Reflection final boss) but those should be the exception, not the rule.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-05-01 at 04:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    A bunch of previews of pages from the upcoming book came up on Amazon. needless to say, spoilers ahead.

    Spoiler: Spoilers
    Show


    After the Legion was defeated, there was an effort by the Horde and Alliance to facilitate family reunions between Forsaken and human families members.

    Needless to say, it didn't entirely work out. There were some success but mostly rejections. Genn was agains the whole thing, funnily enough, even going so far as to try and bully people into rejecting the idea. However, in the epilogue, he apologies to Anduin, saying he might have been wrong about the forsaken - maybe he is finally realising how much in common his worgen have with the forsaken, given they both have similar origin stories - both turned into mindless killing machines against their wills, only to regain control and mostly return to their old personalities.

    Now it is what else going on that is the big stuff.

    Calia makes a return. Urged on by the Naaru, and with the backing of Anduin, she makes plans with the Desolace Council to stage a coup to overthrow Sylvanas and take the throne of Lordaeron as Queen.

    Sylvanas gets word of it. Sylvanas is not happy. The threat is ended with everyone involved, including Calia, dead.

    However, she does not attack the Alliance. Even Genn gives her props for the way she managed it. She destroyed the traitors and made herself look like a hero for the rest of the Horde by not retaliating against the Alliance like she had ever right to do so. She was the wronged party after all.

    This all takes place before the burning of Tedrassil, though, and nothing yet shows how that happened.

    Anduin, meanwhile, is feeling terribly guilty. He promised the Desolace Council that he would protect them and failed. He also got Calia killed. Between him, Faol and the Naaru, they bring her back.

    In a manner of speaking. She is no longer alive. She is a Holy undead.


  10. - Top - End - #100
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    So just resubbed on a whim, grinding Argussian rep for dem VElfs. Not sure what to use my boost on, thinking either Rogue or Mage. Anyone know how they're looking in BfA?

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Secret Lair on Sol c
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    If I'm going to play again (still uncertain), it's probably going to be a Highmountain Tauren Protection Warrior

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Spore's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    So just resubbed on a whim, grinding Argussian rep for dem VElfs. Not sure what to use my boost on, thinking either Rogue or Mage. Anyone know how they're looking in BfA?
    Mage stays the same as in Legion. Frost is proc heavy, Fire is the methodical spec with the double procs and instant pyroblasts (and insane burst, no dot management anymore tho) and Arcane is the interplay of Conversation and Burn Phases.

    As for rogue, I don't really know. They cut down on rogue "game cheats" in BfA. you can't cloak as many mechanics anymore, but PvE will stay similar as in Legion, with the exception that they plan that you can opt out of RNG talents (such as Roll the Bones).

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ionbound's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Elsewhere
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread


  14. - Top - End - #104
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Eh. I'd prefer they get back to the original fury and arms philosophy: Randomness punctuated by strong, fury-intensive cooldowns. They've gone so hard into the 'controlled burst' design goal that the specs feel really, really predictable and boring.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Secret Lair on Sol c
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    what is probably the slowest, most methodical (which aren't quite the same as predictable) DPS spec?

    Asking as a tank that's used to focus on timing taunts and nailing the AM's at the right times

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    what is probably the slowest, most methodical (which aren't quite the same as predictable) DPS spec?

    Asking as a tank that's used to focus on timing taunts and nailing the AM's at the right times
    Really, I'd advise using Fire Mage. Relatively straightforward, easy to understand mechanic, built around maintaining your hot streak. That said, even more I'd recommend just doing whatever DPS spec goes with your tank, unless you have a surfeit of spare time to itemize two characters.

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ionbound's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Elsewhere
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Eh. I'd prefer they get back to the original fury and arms philosophy: Randomness punctuated by strong, fury-intensive cooldowns. They've gone so hard into the 'controlled burst' design goal that the specs feel really, really predictable and boring.
    I dunno, as a control freak, I like the idea of being able to go berserk with a little more precision. Not that having some unpredictability to the spec is a bad thing but having enrage be moved towards being a result of massacre rather than mostly being a random proc is a good thing, IMO.

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Secret Lair on Sol c
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Really, I'd advise using Fire Mage. Relatively straightforward, easy to understand mechanic, built around maintaining your hot streak. That said, even more I'd recommend just doing whatever DPS spec goes with your tank, unless you have a surfeit of spare time to itemize two characters.
    The problem with going offspec, is kinda that I can't help but think "I'd might as well tank since the character can do that at least as well, probably better"

    I've tried playing all Tank classes (bar monk for some odd reason) at (then-current) max level, and even when I started the character with the intention of going another spec (whether that be DPS or Heal), i keep defaulting into playing Tank since that is so intuitive for me

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionbound View Post
    I dunno, as a control freak, I like the idea of being able to go berserk with a little more precision. Not that having some unpredictability to the spec is a bad thing but having enrage be moved towards being a result of massacre rather than mostly being a random proc is a good thing, IMO.
    The problem I have is that it still really doesn't deliver controlability, in point of fact, it only mediates the burst with bloodthirst crits or colossus smash resets. The RNG factor is still there, they've just stacked more of the burst into the trigger effect than back in the early days of Warrior. If you played Arms or Fury, you didn't NEED to be in your burst window to do respectable execution. As they are now, everything is 'fish for procs to actually do damage', whether the 'actual damage' is from Enrage/Raging Blow or Colossus Smash doesn't matter too much. Still just as RNG dependent as before, really, just less spiky.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Spore's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    The problem with going offspec, is kinda that I can't help but think "I'd might as well tank since the character can do that at least as well, probably better"

    I've tried playing all Tank classes (bar monk for some odd reason) at (then-current) max level, and even when I started the character with the intention of going another spec (whether that be DPS or Heal), i keep defaulting into playing Tank since that is so intuitive for me
    Rogue has good toolkits to help the group, such as:
    Tools of the Trade: redirecting aggro to the tank
    Evasion: 100% dodge for 10 seconds means you can even offtank add waves.
    Feint: half damage from AoEs.
    Cloak of Shadows: removes debuffs, makes you immune to them for 5s.
    Crippling Poison: 50% slow for adds.
    Crimson Vial recovers 30% of your health for 30 energy, leeching poison gives additional healing, cheat death makes you immune to death!
    additionally you are quicker than everyone (15% base speed increase, Sprint, Shadow Step)

    If you play smart, you are still never the tank but the tank's BEST FRIEND! Plus you know how fights go sometimes. If you can soak some puddles better, plus I find Assassination quite methodical and ... well subtle.

    But as a pure DPS you are somewhat expected to roll the damage spec that let's you perform the best.

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Spoiler: Battle for Azeroth
    Show

    So the new resident Old God we'll be pitted against is G'hun, the Blood God.

    Brace yourself for the tidal wave of Warhammer 40K memes incoming.

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Spore's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Thinking about a main for BfA. I kind of agree with Kelani here.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A81Vl5W2R8o

    Warlock is quite varied. DH is mobile and incredibly fun. Paladin is a good overall package. My main will probably picked between DH and Paladin. Depending on whether or not I want to heal (tanking will be for dungeons and mythics only, no raid tanking).

    What are your experiences with the live Holy Paladin (and the BFA one if you have beta access)?

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Spoiler: Battle for Azeroth
    Show

    So the new resident Old God we'll be pitted against is G'hun, the Blood God.

    Brace yourself for the tidal wave of Warhammer 40K memes incoming.
    Spoiler: Battle for Azeroth
    Show
    Bloody-Handed Khaine is canonical in the Warhammer fantasy setting as well. Blizz has a well-established history of borrowing from the Games Workshop settings. I'm never ever worried about the Warcraft fluff. Mists of Pandaria didn't bother me, Warlords bothered me a bit, only because it felt like a rerun cop-out. What I'm mainly interested in seeing out of WoW is (short of a WoW II) is taut gameplay and fun content.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Up there past them trees!

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Thinking about a main for BfA. I kind of agree with Kelani here.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A81Vl5W2R8o

    Warlock is quite varied. DH is mobile and incredibly fun. Paladin is a good overall package. My main will probably picked between DH and Paladin. Depending on whether or not I want to heal (tanking will be for dungeons and mythics only, no raid tanking).

    What are your experiences with the live Holy Paladin (and the BFA one if you have beta access)?
    I haven't touched WoW since I did my free-tour of late-stage Legion, and got bored stupid with the intro-quests and broken shore quest zones, and noped right back out again. If I describe to buy and re-sub, it will be to play Marksman Hunter and Arms warrior, exclusively, which always winds up being a questionable gig, because being a DPS-only player turns you into a second-class citizen in the WoW community. However, I've grown tired of moderating my fun to service other players' itemization goals.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Orlando FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    I look forward to seeing what the Classic server has to offer. They made some major mistakes IMO on designs after BC which I would like to see returned to the old system. Skill trees returning to the 3 tree mix and match is a big one for me. I liked the options it presented. I also want a return to the old Hunter Pet system where a hunter could go out and find rare pets and actually get bonuses for having them as well as having fairly unique pets from the casual hunters who didn't put time and effort into finding cool pets. So I guess we will see. At Blizzard speed we probably have another year to go anyway.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Secret Lair on Sol c
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    While i understand where you're coming from in terms of skill trees, and felt that they to some extent threw the baby out with the bathwater, I have to acknowledge that in practice it was solely a question if you knew what you were doing or not, since the number of usable builds within the skill trees was vastly lower than you'd think, and a lot of trap options that non-hardcore players wouldn't be able to spot unless they followed a guide (in which case the argument of 'choice' is moot)

    I personally feel that they've gotten closer to a happy medium where it's simple, but you still have the ability to modify your build to taste, with Legion and BFA where the talent choices are real choices, but still mainly comes down to how you prefer to tailor your spec, rather than there being 1 true way and anyone who aren't following that are scrubs that doesn't deserve the game

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    While i understand where you're coming from in terms of skill trees, and felt that they to some extent threw the baby out with the bathwater, I have to acknowledge that in practice it was solely a question if you knew what you were doing or not, since the number of usable builds within the skill trees was vastly lower than you'd think, and a lot of trap options that non-hardcore players wouldn't be able to spot unless they followed a guide (in which case the argument of 'choice' is moot)

    I personally feel that they've gotten closer to a happy medium where it's simple, but you still have the ability to modify your build to taste, with Legion and BFA where the talent choices are real choices, but still mainly comes down to how you prefer to tailor your spec, rather than there being 1 true way and anyone who aren't following that are scrubs that doesn't deserve the game
    Just out of curiosity, if I paraphrase you as having said "I like the current version of WoW," would you protest?

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Secret Lair on Sol c
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Just out of curiosity, if I paraphrase you as having said "I like the current version of WoW," would you protest?
    Meh, Legion is proberly second on my list behind WotL, so while not wrong it doesn’t imply quite the right thing

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    What's WotL?

    (Oh, Wrath of the Lich, monarchy deleted?)

    If you would put modern WoW above "a dead badger" in levels of smelliness, I'd say that's a "yes" to my question.

    Just to be clear: Your memories of pre-wotl WoW are completely unlike mine. People experimented with talent trees a lot. Taking the top-tier talent in any of them was optional; for every tree there were a lot of people who did, and for nearly every tree there were a lot of people who didn't. Only the tiny minority (one of the developers estimated 2% in an interview) of players who viewed the game as All About getting to the end of Naxxramas or Sunwell Plateau cared about guides that said "This talent gets you two percent more dee pee ess than that one, so that one is an abomination unto our (web)site!" 'Course, that group also made it clear that they thought they were the only people actually playing the game, and somewhere between wotl and Cataclysm Blizzard started a push to turn that into reality for some reason I will never understand.
    Last edited by Kish; 2018-06-09 at 08:29 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Orlando FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

    I don't remember what I did for my main Hunter in those days but my rogue dabbled in two of the trees, stealth and something else and I really liked the combo I had picked out. I wasn't a PVP or hardcore raider either though. I just liked exploring things and picking up rare pets and minions. I don't want to know how many hours I spent endlessly shooting up dragon whelps/centaur-things in the various places trying to get the whelping pet. The blue one was the longest if I remember right.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •