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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    D&Dland is medieval. People are always starving everywhere because they live at a subsistence level on land being farmed with premodern techniques in a feudal relationship with the local lord (who, incidentally, is not exactly in favor of them having whatever lifestyle they want). Medieval Europe was at a level of growth we would have called depression or recession for hundreds of years. The infant mortality rate was somewhere between a third and a half. D&D is like that, but there are manticores and apocalypse cultists.
    I tend to see D&D world as a weird non-historical mixture of renaissance and post-apocalyptic.

    Sure, you've got diseases and manticores and tsochar and cultists, but you also have druids and clerics and paladins and angels. In areas where the druids & clerics et al. are dominant, life might be pretty great, with enhanced crop yields and diseases cured. In areas where the manticores & cultists are winning, life might be rather nasty, brutish, and/or short.

    High fantasy, renaissance, and post-apocalypse all feature themes like exploring ruins for valuable lost knowledge, which seems like a very central conceit for D&D.



    Hmm, if implemented in a certain way, then a natural implication of that might be every city-state has a "load-bearing boss" NPC whose personal power guarantees the safety of the nearby region, and that might be a great in-game excuse for PCs to retire at some high-ish level.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    ...

    OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc.

    I repeat: After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

    You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions.
    Except that you can. You tell your minion to handle it. All of it.
    You make a trap of a high enough Simulacrum or similar and you instruct the first to instruct the rest to get it done.
    You make a trap that makes minions that make Int Magic Items whose powers and purposes are to create post scarcity.

    Maybe every now and then you could spare a precious precious spell slot to look in on the process and tweak it. Oh no. How inconvenient. You've sullied your noble spellcaster's hands with giving an order to a sapient completely obedient and like minded minion.

    Spells are like phone apps. You got a problem? The 3.x game has a brute force solution in magic. Not enough info? Divination spells. Not enough man hours? Minionmancy. Your skills not high enough? There's a spell for that.

    Heck, with custom spells you get to magic away the minutia of just about any issue. And its supposed to be that way. Why? Same reason you keep stating, This is nominally an adventure game And magic is the device by which we obviate the minutia of the day to day so our table time can focus on monster fights instead.


    Speaking of monster fights, you still get them in post scarcity. There's infinite planes full of monsters with opposed ideologies.
    Just because the god fearing good folk of the prime material have their needs tended to doesnt mean they'll be perfectly safe all the time. It just means they stop dying of preventable disease, starvation, exposure, and thirst.

    And I'm not saying your way of playing is wrong or unfun. Just that the default world of suffering and scarcity doesnt hold up to a rational application of the rules that are supposed to run along side said scarcity.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-05-01 at 03:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I tend to see D&D world as a weird non-historical mixture of renaissance and post-apocalyptic.

    Sure, you've got diseases and manticores and tsochar and cultists, but you also have druids and clerics and paladins and angels. In areas where the druids & clerics et al. are dominant, life might be pretty great, with enhanced crop yields and diseases cured. In areas where the manticores & cultists are winning, life might be rather nasty, brutish, and/or short.

    High fantasy, renaissance, and post-apocalypse all feature themes like exploring ruins for valuable lost knowledge, which seems like a very central conceit for D&D.



    Hmm, if implemented in a certain way, then a natural implication of that might be every city-state has a "load-bearing boss" NPC whose personal power guarantees the safety of the nearby region, and that might be a great in-game excuse for PCs to retire at some high-ish level.
    Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.

    My personal view is that kingdom management should just be a default part of the game. You shouldn't have to pick between dungeon adventures and managing your kingdom, because the resources you use in those fields shouldn't trade off. Also, it's not really hard to imagine what might happen if you improved life in the medieval world by some amount, because that is what all of history since the middle ages has been. Figuring out what the impact of the PCs increasing agricultural yields or decreasing transportation times isn't terribly hard, and gives the PCs a real and meaningful measure of progress.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    And I'm not saying your way of playing is wrong or unfun. Just that the default world of suffering and scarcity doesn't hold up to a rational application of the rules that are supposed to run along side said scarcity.
    The problem is that the rules don't paint a complete picture. We have things like artifacts and owlbears and living spells and wild/dead magic zones in the world, but the rules are silent on how to create most of them (whether intentionally or by accident.) It suggests however that in practice, mortal magic has unintended consequences and that spells don't always work perfectly. This aspect of magic doesn't come up in the "normal" game because simple adventuring is chaotic enough, but it could very well come into play when you're trying to revolutionize industry through highly repeatable spellcraft.

    No one is saying that a good character wouldn't try to eliminate hunger and scarcity if they had the power to make the attempt. They very likely would. But actually succeeding seems like a different matter. Your wizard isn't the first good and smart person to walk the earth, so why has it not succeeded before? That to me is the more interesting question.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Your wizard isn't the first good and smart person to walk the earth, so why has it not succeeded before? That to me is the more interesting question.
    I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.

    So, if one group of powerful wizards is actively trying to eliminate hunger via these self resetting spell traps, they will have some other group who will actively try to sabotage them, whether it is because they want the wizards to epically fail and lose prestige, or because they are devout followers of the god of pestilence and starvation, or because they have huge financial stakes in the current feudal system and they don't want their money stream interrupted.

    The opposing greed or hatred of powerful enemies can go a long way to undoing the good deeds of a few heroes.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    I think "there are evil ***** who want people to starve" is a totally reasonable thing, as long as it is clear that those people are evil. The god of pestilence trying to keep filth fever around is a completely in-character thing for him to do. The problem I have is when it is suggested that the good gods would rather people live traditionally and starve, or that "there is a guy who is pro-starvation and that is why people starve to death" should be responded to with anything other than an attempt to depose that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    the rules are silent on how to create most of them (whether intentionally or by accident.) It suggests however that in practice, mortal magic has unintended consequences and that spells don't always work perfectly.
    "The rules are silent on this issue, but also they suggest that I am right and the world works the way I want it to."

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.

    My personal view is that kingdom management should just be a default part of the game. You shouldn't have to pick between dungeon adventures and managing your kingdom, because the resources you use in those fields shouldn't trade off. Also, it's not really hard to imagine what might happen if you improved life in the medieval world by some amount, because that is what all of history since the middle ages has been. Figuring out what the impact of the PCs increasing agricultural yields or decreasing transportation times isn't terribly hard, and gives the PCs a real and meaningful measure of progress.
    That would be a better game, yeah.

    Now I want a hybrid Sim City / Civilization / RPG.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle71 View Post
    I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.
    FR also relies on those same powerful NPCs as quest-givers. Can you imagine how horrible it would be if they actually were watched by their enemies?

    Elminster: "Welcome young adventurers! I'm going to give you a vital quest: try to stay alive as long as possible. You were seen entering my humble abode, so you've been marked by my numerous enemies. I am actually quite active in terms of making the world a better place, and you're going to help me, whether you want to help or not. You're going to help by running away from the powerful enemies who will from now on seek your death. I'm not going to tell you anything, so you can't give them useful information in trade for your lives. Would you like tea before you start running?"

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle71 View Post
    I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.

    So, if one group of powerful wizards is actively trying to eliminate hunger via these self resetting spell traps, they will have some other group who will actively try to sabotage them, whether it is because they want the wizards to epically fail and lose prestige, or because they are devout followers of the god of pestilence and starvation, or because they have huge financial stakes in the current feudal system and they don't want their money stream interrupted.

    The opposing greed or hatred of powerful enemies can go a long way to undoing the good deeds of a few heroes.
    Yep, this makes perfect sense to me. The Powers that support entropy and chaos are no less capable than the ones in favor of order and progress, and balance is achieved. Perhaps one will win out over the other for a period of time - even a long one - but it all balances out eventually when those civilizations come crashing to earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    FR also relies on those same powerful NPCs as quest-givers. Can you imagine how horrible it would be if they actually were watched by their enemies?

    Elminster: "Welcome young adventurers! I'm going to give you a vital quest: try to stay alive as long as possible. You were seen entering my humble abode, so you've been marked by my numerous enemies. I am actually quite active in terms of making the world a better place, and you're going to help me, whether you want to help or not. You're going to help by running away from the powerful enemies who will from now on seek your death. I'm not going to tell you anything, so you can't give them useful information in trade for your lives. Would you like tea before you start running?"
    Well I mean, keeping an eye on Elminster's overall plans and goals doesn't necessarily mean that they know every time he brushes his teeth. It's more likely anyway that for a lower-level party he'd be issuing marching orders through the Harpers or the Church of Mystra or something. (In fact, you've hit upon the exact reason such organizations exist in the first place.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    ...

    "The rules are silent on this issue, but also they suggest that I am right and the world works the way I want it to."
    Basically this. And since at the the end of the day it IS a game of pretend this is still likely a completely v a solid stance.
    Which is why there's so much of it going on at any given time in any given thread.

    That said, I will agree that while I wouldn't mind being dropped naked into the Forgotten Realms game, being forced to inhabit the Realms minus a rules system would be just awful.
    Same for just about every gameworld. Is part of why I game in these worlds and visit these gaming forums.
    More freeform expression of the Forgottem Realms I'll leave to its authors and artists.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    That said, I will agree that while I wouldn't mind being dropped naked into the Forgotten Realms game, being forced to inhabit the Realms minus a rules system would be just awful.
    Same for just about every gameworld. Is part of why I game in these worlds and visit these gaming forums.
    More freeform expression of the Forgottem Realms I'll leave to its authors and artists.
    And that's totally fine, but It pretty much answers the question posed in the OP. Those crafters exist because they inhabit a world that goes beyond the RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well I mean, keeping an eye on Elminster's overall plans and goals doesn't necessarily mean that they know every time he brushes his teeth. It's more likely anyway that for a lower-level party he'd be issuing marching orders through the Harpers or the Church of Mystra or something. (In fact, you've hit upon the exact reason such organizations exist in the first place.)
    A group of heavily-armed magical mercenaries visiting his home is hopefully a more notable event than mere teeth-brushing, unless you're saying something insulting about the dude's dental hygiene. (Which might be accurate, I don't know that topic.)

    But yes, that's what the Harpers and such are going to do in this setting: they get to actually accomplish stuff, while the PCs are busy running for their lives as the distraction.

    Sucks to be a PC in that world, but whatever, as long as the fiction is upheld right?

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    A group of heavily-armed magical mercenaries visiting his home is hopefully a more notable event than mere teeth-brushing, unless you're saying something insulting about the dude's dental hygiene. (Which might be accurate, I don't know that topic.)
    That's my point though - they wouldn't necessarily visit his home until they're high enough level to handle the attention that would bring. He has lots of proxies and agents that can deliver information in his stead before then. Same with Khelben, The Simbul, The Lords of Waterdeep etc. Meeting those folks at level 1 (knowingly, anyway) is pretty rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    But yes, that's what the Harpers and such are going to do in this setting: they get to actually accomplish stuff, while the PCs are busy running for their lives as the distraction.

    Sucks to be a PC in that world, but whatever, as long as the fiction is upheld right?
    In most modules and APs it's the other way around actually; the Harpers get you the connections and resources, but ultimately your group saves the day. You might even get an invitation to join them at the end. Same with Pathfinder Society, various Dragonmarked houses, Knights of Solamnia etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Knights of Solamnia etc.
    I read that as Knights of Somolia, now I'm sad that pirate knights aren't a real thing
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    I read that as Knights of Somolia, now I'm sad that pirate knights aren't a real thing
    "Look at me. Look at me. I'm the Brightblade now."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordChucks View Post
    Where are you getting this? Did anyone say the wizard goes around and says "Eat my food or else"?
    I got it from the thread topic - "Why do mundane crafters exist?" If people are proposing suggestions that don't eliminate the people doing it mundanely, then they have brought in irrelevancies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Equating charity with taking people's lives away is a bold stance. If people enjoy being farmers, they can still do that.
    It's not a "bold stance". It's merely staying on-topic. We are discussing "Why do mundane crafters exist?"
    Last edited by Jay R; 2018-05-03 at 06:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I got it from the thread topic - "Why do mundane crafters exist?" If people are proposing suggestions that don't eliminate the people doing it mundanely, then they have brought in irrelevancies.



    It's not a "bold stance". It's merely staying on-topic. We are discussing "Why do mundane crafters exist?"
    "Eliminate the people doing it mundanely" is odd phrasing. It makes it sound like the caster is commiting farmer genocide. Probably better to phrase it as "eliminate the need for people to do it mundanely".

    People still have to accept the food that's offered. They are in no way guaranteed to be made into pets. In the scenario where someone turns down the offer and grows their own food there is an answer for the topic. Simply the mundane people wanted to do it themselves. In almost any other case it is entirely up to the DM why caster crafters haven't replace the mundane.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    As far as distribution etc of magically produced stuff, the number of planar allies and the like with teleport without error and much more is staggering. Simple fix. Minionmancy solves all the logistical issues pretty handily.

    Also in a post scarcity world, why wouldn't 30 in wizard with his ton of skillpoints become the greatest basketweaver of all time or such mundanely as a hobby?

    Mundane crafters exist because the in world fiction is not consistent and taken far falls Into ruin rather quickly.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.
    Wow. Insult received.

    No, that is not what I have said or what I have meant.

    I specifically wrote "My point is that hiring farmers works just as well, and leaves the PCs free to stop the invading ogres (which is what supercharged do-gooders tend to do)."

    That is specifically about the PCs making life better for the ogres' intended victims. There is no honest or fair way to turn that into a claim that I don't want high level people to do stuff that makes life better.

    I have said, several times, that people without modern knowledge cannot run the world-girdling network that would be required.

    I have said, more than once, that this requires a level of modern operations analysis.

    I wrote "Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job."

    I wrote "OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc."

    I wrote "After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

    You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions."

    You did not respond to any of this, because quoting any of these would have proved that your insult was false.

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    Default Re: Why do mundane crafters exist?

    Jay R, the way the logistics of spreading goods to the region/continent/world expands is the same. Slowly and by trial-and-error. As long as the caster breaks even in someway the network can expand. A high Int and Wis goes a long way to setting up redundancies and preventing mishaps.

    Once you're dealing with literal superhuman intelligence, saying something requires modern thought can't be proven true.

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