What CR should I make this dragon?

[NerdHut]

The end of my campaign's main storyline is coming up very quickly. The short version of the story is that the party has been collecting the 7 Dragon Balls pieces of a crystal to reunify them and gain powers to face a red dragon that has been terrorizing them and the lands around them since they were about level 3.

At the time of the (hopefully) climactic battle, the players will be at level 13 with temporary templates that I'm aiming to be around +2 LA. There are several they'll get to choose from, each with a different theme, but they each follow a basic pattern (Stat boost + Continuous effect + One-time effect based on or replicating a high level spell).

So the players should effectively be ECL 15 for the purpose of this battle (13 class levels plus approx +2 LA).
The party make-up is:

• Anthropomorphic Black Bear - Bear Totem Barbarian/Bear Warrior build
• Dwarf - Barbarian
• Spellscale - Bard
• Half-Orc - Sorcerer/Rogue build (homebrewed without the CHA penalty, and about half/half for levels at this point)
• Human - Witch (homebrew class, strongly based on the DMG's example homebrew class on page 175)

The top three players in the list aren't great at optimization, but they're competent in a fight. The bottom two are both good at optimization, but deliberately chose sub-optimal classes/combos for the challenge.

Basically what I'm getting at is my uncertainty toward the CR accuracy of Dragons.
At least in theory, should an Adult Red Dragon (CR 15) plus a few low-level minions be an appropriate boss, or should I step it up to a Mature Adult Red Dragon (CR 18)? I want him to be a credible threat, but I also don't want to steamroll my players.

[Bucky]

Does the more mundane end of the party have anything they can do against a flying enemy?

[NerdHut]

Does the more mundane end of the party have anything they can do against a flying enemy?

Not at this moment aside from ranged weapons, but there's treasure coming their way before the fight that includes a couple fly-type items (winged boots, and winged vest). I can't garauntee they'll want to keep them, but they'll have the option made plainly available. In addition, I plan to have the battle in a giant cavern rather than in the open, so even when he's flying he's not able to effortlessly escape (though if the players don't make any effort to block the exit, he can).

[Celestia]

I'd go with the CR18 version. Endgame bosses should be stronger than a standard encounter, especially when they're single enemies. I'd probably even add a couple sorcer levels on it for a bit extra power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd probably go adult with minions. 4th level spells and a handful of guys to run interference works pretty nicely for a complex but not necessarily overwhelming encounter. 5th level spells can get rough on a low-op group.

[NerdHut]

I'd go with the CR18 version. Endgame bosses should be stronger than a standard encounter, especially when they're single enemies. I'd probably even add a couple sorcer levels on it for a bit extra power.

I agree that the final boss should be difficult. The issue is that I've been told dragons are typically given a CR that is too low. My concern is the possibility of bumping it up to CR 18 and it playing out as CR 20. I'm also not necessarily sure adding more sorcerer levels to a dragon that already casts as a level 9 sorcerer would be right for this battle, for the reasons Kelb_Panthera states.

I'd probably go adult with minions. 4th level spells and a handful of guys to run interference works pretty nicely for a complex but not necessarily overwhelming encounter. 5th level spells can get rough on a low-op group.

Mature adult red dragons are the ones with access to 4th level spells. I think you're thinking of wizard spell progression for a level 9 caster. With that in mind, though, if you think the main consideration is spell access, maybe the CR 18 option could work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mature adult red dragons are the ones with access to 4th level spells. I think you're thinking of wizard spell progression for a level 9 caster. With that in mind, though, if you think the main consideration is spell access, maybe the CR 18 option could work.

Derp. Yeah, it was late here when I punched that up.

The mature adult might still be rough with the numbers it has as a bruiser but spells are the big thing. Honestly, I doubt the +2 LA template, slapped on at the last minute, is going to actually be 2 levels worth of power for most of that group so I'm inclined to err on the side of caution without seeing their actual sheets for a detailed analysis.

[heavyfuel]

I really suggest watching this video on dragons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc

If the length is something that scares you, the relevant part is from 2:32~5:45 and then again from 6:55~8:40

Now, some questions about your plans:

1) Do you plan on making your dragon fight at all smart? You should really really make sure the PCs have some way to deal with it, otherwise they will all die.

2) Do they know they'll be fighting a dragon? A surprise dragon will end any party, but if they have time, resources, and - more importantly - knowledge to prepare, the fight should be manageable

3) Do the players have access to any dragon-killer spell combos? Namely, True Casting and/or Assay Resistance + Shivering Touch or Wraithstrike + Power Attack.


With your answers in mind, let's go back to your original question:

Start with a Young Adult Dragon

If you plan on fighting dumb (letting the dragon in melee, not using spells, etc), raise the age category by 1

If they know they are fighting a dragon and can reasonably prepare (it's up to them to decide on the how to best prepare), raise the age category by 1

If you said yes to dragon-killer combos, go with dragon + minions and have the minions buff the dragon to prevent or stall these instakill situations. Otherwise, go with solo dragon but raise the age category by 1

[Malroth]

Honestly, with this party makeup, Even CR 13 dragon would probably be a TPK, Dragons are not weak for their CR they're about 3CR stronger than listed even if they don't use their insane wealth to buy more power.

[NerdHut]

The players know they will be fighting a dragon, and the dragon is not a planner. Intelligent, sure, but he's not big on forethought. He's not expecting adventurers to be showing up at his doorstep, either.
With that in mind, I plan to use a little melee (partly to show his overconfidence, partly to let the barbarians have their time to show off), a little spells, and of course the breath weapon.
They have the resources to get a lot at this point. I'll advise them somewhat on what they might need to take on a dragon, but obviously I can't decide for them what to do.
They haven't yet selected any Dragon-killer combos. Only one of them might know about them at all.

[Bucky]

I'd split the difference - go with a younger dragon chasis, but add a few class levels of something that isn't sorcerer to give it character. Something like a young adult with Wolf Totem Barbarian 3.

[Elkad]

I'd tend towards Young Adult + class levels as well. That's just enough to make it Huge, have SR (barely, but you don't have a lot of full-casting power in the party, so it'll be useful), and a a few personal buff spells.

Then stack on something that boosts survivability without boosting damage a lot. Intent is to make the fight go on a long time.
4-6 levels of Warblade maybe.

Take defensive maneuvers, not offense.
Iron Heart Endurance for little in-combat heals (swift)
Moment of Alacrity to take your TRUE place in the initiative order.
Iron Heart Focus to reroll a save.
Absolute Steel stance for a bit more AC and movement.
Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind to shore up Reflex and Will saves.


And don't be afraid to boost his con, or just flat-out double his hitpoints.

[NerdHut]

4-6 levels of Warblade maybe.

Take defensive maneuvers, not offense.
Iron Heart Endurance for little in-combat heals (swift)
Moment of Alacrity to take your TRUE place in the initiative order.
Iron Heart Focus to reroll a save.
Absolute Steel stance for a bit more AC and movement.
Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind to shore up Reflex and Will saves.


And don't be afraid to boost his con, or just flat-out double his hitpoints.

I'm not big on ToB. It's not bad, it's just not my cup of tea. The maneuvers add another system on top of the already cumbersome 3.5. If I go Young Adult, I'll probably tack on one level of sorcerer for the extra spells without necessarily adding a new spell level. After that, maybe my homebrewed version of fighter to boost AC, or a variant barbarian for other boosts.

And I learned some HP tips on here a while back. Whenever I prep a boss, I calculate three levels of HP: average (default), maximum value, and maximum plus extra. When you get to complex battles, it's tough to tell how quickly or slowly hitpoints are going to drop, so having some flexibility is useful.

[Gelcur]

ToB is not my bag either but every so often I will splash the feats that grant just a small sample of the book.

I'd say go Adult Red Dragon (CR 15), take the time to customize the feats well. At 22HD it gets 8 feats 1 of which can be Epic.

I think your minions idea is good. Throw in a bunch of kobolds with some simple traps "guarding" their master, maybe the the dragon keeps them around more for his/her own amusement. Maybe some areas the dragon can't actually fit in, a spiraling lava tube that leads to the top of the mountain opening, but the dragon's claw or a breath weapon can reach them. Maybe the dragon could set its pets to chase them down, a redspawn firebelcher, as they flee they keep running into kobolds blocking the way.

Video game final levels and boss fights do an excellent job of building tension. Show the villain and a bit of his power and soften up the party, with no real danger initially make them use those heals, it isn't like they will have a chance in combat.

[Elkad]

Sounds like you are on the right path then.

Get him a reroll or 2. Amulet of Fortune Prevailing (MiC:69), Luck Domain, etc.

[NerdHut]

I think your minions idea is good. Throw in a bunch of kobolds with some simple traps "guarding" their master, maybe the the dragon keeps them around more for his/her own amusement. Maybe some areas the dragon can't actually fit in, a spiraling lava tube that leads to the top of the mountain opening, but the dragon's claw or a breath weapon can reach them. Maybe the dragon could set its pets to chase them down, a redspawn firebelcher, as they flee they keep running into kobolds blocking the way.

Video game final levels and boss fights do an excellent job of building tension. Show the villain and a bit of his power and soften up the party, with no real danger initially make them use those heals, it isn't like they will have a chance in combat.

That's more-or-less what I have planned. The players will need to infiltrate the place before fighting Big Bad to get a couple of the Dragon Balls pieces of crystal, timed when he's out terrorizing some nomads. But there's a cult of Kobolds there to guard things until Big Bad comes back. It'll be clear there are passages too small for the party to get through normally where the Kobolds might wander.
When they return to take out Big Bad, there will be some stragglers to help him out in the battle. I figure they'll have reset some traps and put up obstacles.

[Bucky]

You might also consider golems for minions. They're useful magic items, so the dragon might have a few as part of his hoard.

[Gelcur]

I always imagine Dragons as the ultimate power gamers, Even if they aren't scheming and strategic they have large lifetimes to accumulate awesomeness.

Think outside of the box, if this dragon had a couple of constant effects granted by the Wish spell what would they be? Maybe he can control the temperature of his layer or even on a smaller scale the region? I love introducing Environment Dangers, makes the players feel like the very world is against them. Start it off as its balmy in here move on up till:

Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell.

You could hint at it by having the kobolds immune to fire by having a pot of burning oil or something fall on one and it not reacting.

Repel Metal like effect or better yet an Attract Metal effect could be fun. Flying tin can is now in my mouth, crunch. Trying to flank me, wall of gold coins.

[NerdHut]

Alright. With the advice you've all given me here, plus some extra bits elsewhere, here's what I've decided.

• The Dragon will be a standard Adult (rated CR 15 by the book, but is apparently a dubious rating) with relatively powerful feat choices.
• He'll primarily rely on his breath and spells, but melee may not be avoidable if the the players strategize well enough.
• There will be a bunch of low-level kobold warriors to help with divide-and-conquer style tactics. (currently also looking for appropriate options for adding a construct or two)
• The environment can be closed off from escape if the players plan well, but the dragon will not simply stay put if he doesn't have to.
• The cave itself hasn't been designed yet, but I will try to throw in some environmental hazards. I don't think I want to add something that automatically deals damage, but definitely something to make things harder.

Thanks everyone for the help. I feel like I'm not going in completely blind now.