Need advice: Goblin life cycle

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Apparently gibbons have a pregnancy of 7 months and take 8 years to become sexually mature. They have one kid at a time, mostly, and invest quite a bit in care for the first 8 months or so, but the child is far from helpless after the first year and starts leaving his parents side at 3. So they can at least theoretically have a child each year. The largest species grow to about a meter tall and +- 14 kg in weight and they can live for close to 40 years in captivity. So those might be a decent model for Goblin biology, if a constant rate of about 1 kid a year between the ages of 10 and 25 is good enough or can be stretched to be good enough. Our pregnancy's only last about 6 weeks longer than those of chimpanzees and with orangutans which are closer to us in size the difference is a bit smaller still, so the extra intelligence does not have to make that much of a difference...

[Nifft]

And they contradict each other. And that's the problem.

The numerical text describes how they function in combat; the non-numerical text pertains to subjects other than combat numbers.

There's no contradiction.

Now, the fluff is boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. The numbers, however, are open to enterpretation. That's why if you go with the fluff, goblins will always be boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. But if you go with the numbers, goblins can be whatever you want them to be.

So basically, if you ignore the non-numerical text, then the non-numerical text can say whatever you want it to say.

Sure, but so what? You could always do that. You could also ignore the numerical text. In my game, the monster named "goblin" might be a tiny faerie spider which fixes shoes all night, and uses literally nothing from the MM entry.

Compared to that, making "goblins" just another type of humanoid sounds boring.

Why not write up a fallen human empire, and use those people for the "goblin" role? That gets everything you seem to want -- multi-dimensional personalities and the player expectation thereof -- but it gets that stuff by discarding the name "goblin".

So, what's the value of retaining the name "goblin"?

[Kaptin Keen]

You could also ignore the numerical text.?

Sure you could, if what you want is boring, two dimensional cannon fodder. It so happens that that's not what I want. I want a race that is consistent with being on an equal footing, IQ wise, to the dominant races.

If I have dumb races, like orcs, I'll build them like that. If I have hyper intelligent races, like mind flayers, I'll use them in that context.

Races with the intelligence to build functional societies, will. In my book.

If you're fine with ignoring the fact that goblins are as intelligent as humans, don't let me stop you.

[Nifft]

In my game, the monster named "goblin" might be a tiny faerie spider which fixes shoes all night, and uses literally nothing from the MM entry.

Compared to that, making "goblins" just another type of humanoid sounds boring.

Sure you could, if what you want is boring, two dimensional cannon fodder.

Are you even reading what I type?

If not, then we're done here.

[Kaptin Keen]

Are you even reading what I type?

If not, then we're done here.

... pretty sure that's my line. But I agree. Let's simply agree to disagree, we're not going anywhere with this =)

[Jay R]

Oh, sure. Evil species are pretty lazy writing;

More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures - or just raiding or conquering cultures who seemed entirely evil to their victims. I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents.

[Nifft]

More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures - or just raiding or conquering cultures who seemed entirely evil to their victims. I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents.

Could you list out all those evil cultures?

[Friv]

Could you list out all those evil cultures?

I think that doing so is going to hit real-world politics pretty fast.

[Nifft]

I think that doing so is going to hit real-world politics pretty fast.

But that's the thoughtful, non-lazy alternative which has been offered. Surely it must be viable as an alternative. I mean, we can discuss the evils of orc / goblin / kobold / gnoll / drow cultures all day. In fact, such discussions are greatly helpful for DMs who want to run fun and interesting games.

@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

But that's the thoughtful, non-lazy alternative which has been offered. Surely it must be viable as an alternative. I mean, we can discuss the evils of orc / goblin / kobold / gnoll / drow cultures all day. In fact, such discussions are greatly helpful for DMs who want to run fun and interesting games.

@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

No he can't. Saying "Nazis were evil" is politics and thus against forum rules. I expect to get away with it only because I'm using the one example that is pretty much universally excepted at least in Western countries.

We also can't discuss what makes a real human culture evil, or how many if any evil human cultures there have been. They probably should not have even made that statement to begin with. If you want this discussion to be allowed keep it strictly to fantasy or other fictional cultures. (Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Mad Max, Greek mythology etc.)

[Nifft]

More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures

No he can't. Saying "Nazis were evil" is politics and thus against forum rules. I expect to get away with it only because I'm using the one example that is pretty much universally excepted at least in Western countries.

We also can't discuss what makes a real human culture evil, or how many if any evil human cultures there have been. They probably should not have even made that statement to begin with. If you want this discussion to be allowed keep it strictly to fantasy or other fictional cultures. (Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Mad Max, Greek mythology etc.)

His assertion is that evil fantasy races aren't necessary, and the reason he gives is that "the human race on earth has produced evil cultures". You're listing a reason why evil fantasy races are necessary: they circumvent real-world politics.

I think he's made a heavily flawed assertion, and the reasons that you're bringing up do tend to highlight some (but not all) of the flaws with Jay R's assertion.

None the less, maybe he's clever enough to obviate or mitigate those flaws.


@Jay R - Can you list out al (or at least some) of these evil human cultures, specifically the ones which render evil fantasy races unnecessary?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

His assertion is that evil fantasy races aren't necessary, and the reason he gives is that "the human race on earth has produced evil cultures". You're listing a reason why evil fantasy races are necessary: they circumvent real-world politics.

Orcs are not inherently evil, but the Gwannin Orcs from the Bzorg mountains eat babies because their god demands it and torture puppies just for fun. In my alignment system both are seen as evil.

There, no real world politics, no evil race, evil culture.

(There is a whole bunch of baggage to both evil races and evil cultures in non-evil races, such as "is it ethical to kill them?" and "can they be converted to good?", and we may not be able to go into all of that, but that baggage is still weird with evil races.)

[Jay R]

Could you list out all those evil cultures?

@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

Nope, for two reasons, one of which has already been pointed out by Friv and Lvl 2 Expert - the rules of the forums don't allow me to do so.

But also, if you've read any discussion of alignments here, you will realize that we don't all agree on what Evil is. So if I give examples, we will argue over those, which doesn't help the discussion. But if I merely point out that there are such cultures, I can make my point, which remains:

Even if I want all the goblins the PCs meet in my game to be Evil, I don't need the assumption that the entire race is Evil.

If all the people the PCs meet are English, that doesn't mean that the entire race is English.
If all the people the PCs meet are educated, that doesn't mean that the entire race is educated.
If all the people the PCs meet are starving, that doesn't mean that the entire race is starving.

And for the same reasons, if all the goblins the PCs meet are Evil, that doesn't mean the entire race is Evil.

[Ratter]

@Jay R - Can you list out al (or at least some) of these evil human cultures, specifically the ones which render evil fantasy races unnecessary?

No, but I can.
He is implying that you dont have the "EVIL DARK RACE," but instead "Genghis Kahn's monguls" where essentially, they offer you the position of "The culture with your friends and family gets killed," or "I stop them," this could be humans, or goblins or anything, its not race specific, and no matter how much you argue (BLAHBLAHBLAH) group was actually good! doesnt matter. They just have to be framed as bad

AS AN EXAMPLE:

Our party was mostly elves from the elven stronghold of Elyse Allonar, now, Elyse was a pretty bad place to be, everything was hyper expensive, the law was terrible and chaotic, the leader was weak and everyone there was racist (well not everyone but the noble populace and the urchin populace) so this religious group, the Kosh.ites (who worship phoenix and are generally good people) raid this place because they took their relics. Now. The Kosh.ites were probably right in this scenario. They werent any given race, BUT FOR US, they were the universal bad guy, they werent orcs or goblins or kobolds, they were people wearing clothes that marked that they wanted to kill our families and torch our houses.

(sorry it is ko****es but it says I cursed ): )

[Kaptin Keen]

'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

[Ratter]

'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

? Evil in the D&D context just means "disagrees with the DM on various issues that are defendable with "its just a crappy thing to do,"" which makes evil cultures easy to write

[Jay R]

'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

You'll have to demonstrate that logic a bit more explicitly.

I brought up evil human cultures as an argument that I can have my PCs attacked by an Evil tribe or society without assuming that the entire race is Evil. I believe that the presence of evil human cultures throughout history (and implicitly, the concurrent presence of good, or at least neutral, human societies) makes a good argument for that.

The opposite of what I think it is would be that the presence of an Evil society means that entire race must be inherently Evil.

Feel free to develop the logic train defending the opposite of what I think it means. But you'll need to actually show us the logic, not just assert it.

[jhonny]

I really liked this topic. I would like to help maybe thinking how general a goblin gestation could last 4-6 months and have offspring of 6 to 8 tiny new born goblins. Like Nettlekid say ´´How about they're like kangaroos - when they're actually born they're incredibly tiny`` and have offsprings like dogs with 6 to 10 puppies. This is panda bear video in youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kJdJo2h16M
Goblins as survivors of the wild environment may have the knowledge of several plants/herbs, this means that some of these knowledge can have been imprinted in their brain or be goblinLore and some herbs can have the effect of increase the growth speed of the cub.

With an accelerated growth (something like 0-1 year and 11months for child, 2-6 for young, 7-19 for adult, >20 old) from a young age they are placed under situations of danger helping in the hunts and the defense, thus stimulating the development of the intelligence, by practical situations of life and death experience.

Depending on the environment with greater or lesser risks, with a greater or lesser amount of resources would influence the final development and explain the differences between some tribes.

Maybe this would be plausible and you could even put some degree of herbalism and alchemy knowledge.

[Kaptin Keen]

You'll have to demonstrate that logic a bit more explicitly.

Sure. None of the 'evil' human cultures have been even remotely universally evil - quite the opposite, even if the example was nazi germany, the great majority of everyone was just an ordinary, decent person.

[Jay R]

I don't think we're disagreeing.

Sure. None of the 'evil' human cultures have been even remotely universally evil - quite the opposite, even if the example was nazi germany, the great majority of everyone was just an ordinary, decent person.

Yup.

Nonetheless, the effect on the people they attacked was not, most of the time, any different in effect from an attack from an evil culture. To the people whose entire village is being destroyed and the people enslaved or killed, it simply does not matter if many of the folks back home, and perhaps many of the soldiers, do not support such things.

That's why I used the clause "all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture," rather than something nonsensical like "universally evil". Specifically, I was arguing against the silly idea of being "universally evil".

The statement I brought it up to defend was, "I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents."

You have demonstrated that I am correct, and even strengthened my point, showing that we can believe that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without even having to consider the question of whether all the goblins in that specific culture are Evil.

[Kaptin Keen]

You have demonstrated that I am correct, and even strengthened my point, showing that we can believe that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without even having to consider the question of whether all the goblins in that specific culture are Evil.

Ok, I think maybe I didn't catch that distinction. Maybe regime is an even better term than culture. And if population growth generally forces expansionism, then sure, that race is going to make a bad name for itself among it's neighbors.

[Jay R]

Ok, I think maybe I didn't catch that distinction. Maybe regime is an even better term than culture. And if population growth generally forces expansionism, then sure, that race is going to make a bad name for itself among it's neighbors.

Cool. Yes, I think "regime" communicates better. It changes my point slightly, but not in a bad way.

After a couple of back-and-forth comments, we have fully communicated and eventually agreed. That's what an Internet discussion can be at its finest.

Thank you.

[FabulousFizban]

Eat
Rape
Pillage
Repeat

I would give goblins a life cycle similar to that of a chimp or early hominid. A pregnancy lasting around eight months with sexual maturity reached at around eight or nine years. As to fecundity? Litter size of 2-3 with weaning as early as 6 months to a year.

This rate of reproduction would give goblins a SERIOUS competitive edge that would see other races outbred and destroyed within a few thousand years if not for orgazational and technological superiority. You are basically seeing goblins reproduce twice as fast as humans, to say nothing of elves or dwarves.

I'd say goblins are "raised" collectively in warrens with little thought given to individual parentage. As soon as the little monsters are weaned, they are left to be cared for - or not - by older goblin children until they become self-sufficient. a high infant mortality rate of 15-20% is another reason the other races haven't been overrun and wiped out. keep in mind that in a medieval setting - even one where magic is helping out - human infant mortality is still probably around 5-10%. elven & dwarven rates are probably lower. that 15-20% btw is the real world infant mortality rate for pre-industrial societies.

There is probably an initiation rite into adulthood, bloodletting or somesuch, after which the goblin is expected to go on raids for food and other goods with the tribe. Indeed, resource collection is likely the primary occupation of most adult goblins, in order to provide for their ever growing numbers (sieging a tribe and waiting for them to starve is a time honored dwarven tactic).

Goblin society is strictly hierarchical, with children on the bottom, various strata of men, then the women - who would have undisputed matriarchal control of the warrens, then the politcal leaders and chieftain - who would all be male. while women rule the warrens, men rule the tribe.

These divisions would be based entirely on strength or the appearance of strength, and a particularly vicious female goblin might become chieftain - especially if aided by sorcererous powers, though this should be the exception rather than the rule as males would resent it and actively undermine her.

Given their respect for power (and the latter's laziness) it is not uncommon to find a goblin tribe led by a bugbear. Hobgoblins are more likely to use goblins as slaves and fodder, having their own complex society and a general disdain for their "lesser" kin.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The thing I find most confusing about this thread is the need to justify anything in a fantasy game.

Immersion suffers when things don't make sense.

You -could- structure an RPG such that basically no two elements of the game world consider the implications of the other but it would be so alien to how people think in general that it would be virtually impossible to put the fact you are, in fact, playing a game that demands paperwork and appointments to the back of your mind. It'd be sitting there, starting you in the face for the entire length of every session.

Most consider that to be a major flaw in a system or individual campaign.

That out of the way, some people can suspend their disbelief and/or imagine the truly bizarre more easily than others. While you can't -really- play a game where nothing makes sense, you can get away with a certain degree of nonsense in a fantasy setting because players are willing to suspend their disbelief up to a point. You've got to find the breaking point, and not pass it, with your own group. Simple as that, really.

[Logosloki]

A five year old human child has about 90% of the brain weight of a human adult (on average). Goblins are about the size of a five year old, they are usually shown in artwork to have a slightly larger than proportion head though. So in terms of volume and general proportions it wouldn't be too far-fetched that goblins could attain human equivalent intelligence despite their overall body frame.

Given their relatively short stature goblin babies would be smaller than human babies and may just have a faster growth rate. Growth rates are all over the show in nature so this wouldn't be as out of place as it sounds.

I'll spitball around 12 for the average age for goblins to begin giving birth (8 is physical maturation so it may be a case of how well the tribe is doing and whether reaching physical maturation also confers sexual maturation at the same time) and with a general lifespan of 60 a female could potentially give birth to 48 babies in their lifetime (one a year), as long as goblin females do not undergo a menopause phase (which, is extremely rare, there are only three animal species undergo menopause). This number would be of course much less than that given that goblins die, there may be some years where a female doesn't give birth due to various reasons.

So, with their shorter birth cycles, even at one a year goblins would begin to crowd out an area quickly.

Goblins have the height and weight range of a 5-8 year old boy, a goblin of similar stature would have a brain weight within the same bounds as adult humans if they were proportionally similar so intellect has the potential to be similar. Growth rates and sexual maturation are all up the wazoo in nature so it isn't particularly outside the realm of possibility of a smaller species might have a maturation period that matches up with goblins. Shorter generation cycles would mean goblins would begin to approach the capacity of their habitat a lot quicker but not really unexpected. Just look at us humans, we've extended ourselves out 6 billion people over a 200 year period.

[Kaptin Keen]

Cool. Yes, I think "regime" communicates better. It changes my point slightly, but not in a bad way.

After a couple of back-and-forth comments, we have fully communicated and eventually agreed. That's what an Internet discussion can be at its finest.

Thank you.

My pleasure, and likewise. I agree that regime and culture are different things - my thinking was that western culture, for instance, is overall good(-ish), but has still produced at least a couple of the most arguably evil regimes in human history.

[Goblin Slayer]

have you read goblin slayer novel?

the author has a very good idea for a goblin life cycle and drew it out but fair warning tou its a bit more pg than other fantasy works.

[DeoArmis]

Hi friends,
So we're missing some simple but key biological factors here, so let me address them in order.

Pelvic Size
This is irrelevant to how many children are birthed. It only affects the individual baby size. Animals that birth litters have smaller infants in general and push them out one by one, so a small pelvis is normal.

Single vs Litter
A litter sounds like a great idea for a species that relies more on numbers than size or intelligence for survivability! However, this will affect something no one's talked about yet...

Mammary Glands
There is a general rule among mammals called the "One-Half Rule" - it states the number of teats (or nipples) of the mother is approximately equal to the *maximum* litter size (barring rare abnormalities), while the *average* litter size is half that. So if we're going to envision the goblin species as producing children in litters, are we also imagining goblin females with six to ten pairs of breasts? If they continue with only two (like most bipedal mammals), then the extra offspring above the first two will likely starve (many humans have a hard enough time feeding one baby with two, for goodness sakes!).
Now it feels kinda awkward, but that's mammals for ya.

Conclusion
I like the litter idea - it fits their species' survival strategy. Hip size is irrelevant, but if you're not interested in making their females look pretty awkward, maybe you could reason that they are super producers of milk (and obviously exhausted from rotating half a dozen ravenous infants between two feeding stations all day and night!). ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe the females never stop producing milk after their first litter, and feeding any young is a communal task?

They're green, maybe they use photosynthesis like the Warhammer greenskins? You never see any goblins farming, that's why. They still need to eat meat for protein, but the majority of their calories is from sunlight.

[flat_footed]

The Fullmetal Mod: Thread necromancy is a forbidden art.